Thread: Dwimordene

In the chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall' in The Two Towers we read:

'Then it is true, as Éomer reported, that you are in league with the Sorceress of the Golden Wood?' said Wormtongue. 'It is not to be wondered at: webs of deceit were ever woven in Dwimordene.'

Gimli strode a pace forward, but felt suddenly the hand of Gandalf clutch him by the shoulder, and he halted, standing stiff as stone.

In Dwimordene, in Lórien
Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Few mortal eyes have seen the light
That lies there ever, long and bright.
Galadriel! Galadriel!
Clear is the water of your well;
White is the star in your white hand;
Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
In Dwimordene, in Lórien
More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men.

Thus Gandalf softly sang...

Even with no knowledge of Rohirric, which is represented by Anglo-Saxon (Old English) in Tolkien’s novel, we can determine from the context that Dwimordene is a term for Lothlórien. According to Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, a resource referenced by no less than Christopher Tolkien, Dwimordene translates to 'haunted-valley'. (Dwimorlaik, a term Éowyn uses for the Lord of the Nazgûl, is translated as 'work of necromancy, spectre'.)

Why then in Update 6 is the term Dwimordene used to refer to the Elves rather than the place that they live? The screenshot below is just one example:



For those who are interested, the Tolkien Ensemble has created a beautiful interpretation of Gandalf’s song:

Interesting catch, maybe you should submit it as a bug.

"Soak your head in the river" ???? LOL
Reminds me of my choice comments for all those NPC's on escort/escape quests. How about we just leave now and not go looking for that missing left sock your grandmother knit for you.....

Originally Posted by tuor66

"Soak your head in the river" ???? LOL

That was my response to Wynmar saying, "I do not know what to do, Noriel." That idiot was way out of his league!

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Why then in Update 6 is the term Dwimordene used to refer to the Elves rather than the place that they live?

That doesn't appear to be the case.
The term is likely being used in reference to Lórien and by extension to anything weird that is going on around the place, which happen to be Elves. But (!) the Rohirrim don't really know there are any Elves, do they?

Originally Posted by Reniannen

That doesn't appear to be the case.
The term is likely being used in reference to Lórien and by extension to anything weird that is going on around the place, which happen to be Elves. But (!) the Rohirrim don't really know there are any Elves, do they?

No, they definitely use 'Dwimordene' to refer to the Elves. Note that Noriel says, "Dwimordene you call us." There are other examples where it is very clear that they are calling an Elf (or Elves) a Dwimordene. And yes, the Rohirrim know of the Elves and of Galadriel.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

No, they definitely use 'Dwimordene' to refer to the Elves. Note that Noriel says, "Dwimordene you call us." There are other examples where it is very clear that they are calling an Elf (or Elves) a Dwimordene.

But Noriel is an Elf, who up until now has always been addressed by that word indirectly. And "us" doesn't neccessarily mean Elves only.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

But Noriel is an Elf, who up until now has always been addressed by that word indirectly. And "us" doesn't neccessarily mean Elves only.

This is what Wynmar says when roared at from the bushes:

Wynmar says, ''Whatever you are, ghost or Dwimordene, we are not leaving!''

And yes, "us" does mean Elves. There are only Elves encamped at Haldirith. Who else would she be referring to? Would the land of Lorien be making frightful noise?

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

This is what Wynmar says when roared at from the bushes:

Just like me calling you America. Or to give a better example - calling Sapience Turbine.

And yes, "us" does mean Elves. There are only Elves encamped at Haldirith. Who else would she be referring to? Would the land of Lorien be making frightful noise?

Us can mean the whole of Lórien (or, I don't know, all the sentient beings in the forest), and surely it extends past Thinglad. I repeat, none of those Rohirrim have ever seen an Elf, clearly they cannot use the word in reference to them but rather to all the weird things some of which are - unbeknowst to them - Elves.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Just like me calling you America. Or to give a better example - calling Sapience Turbine.

One would not call me 'America' unless their knowledge of English is poor. 'An American', yes, 'The American', perhaps, if the audience knew which particular American was being referred to, but simply 'America', no. So if Wynar had refered to Elves as 'Dwimordeneans', that would have worked, but to refer to an Elf or the Elves in general as 'Dwimordene' would be as improper as calling an individual 'America'.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Us can mean the whole of Lórien (or, I don't know, all the sentient beings in the forest), and surely it extends past Thinglad.

You'll note that in the second example above Wynmar said, ''Whatever you are, ghost or Dwimordene..." Here he clearly differentiates the Elves from other beings in the forest. Noriel clearly means Elves when she says "us", not every living (or spirit) being. Whether that means just the Elves in Thinglad, the Galadhrim, or all of Elvendom does not matter.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

I repeat, none of those Rohirrim have ever seen an Elf, clearly they cannot use the word in reference to them but rather to all the weird things some of which are - unbeknowst to them - Elves.

Certainly they could. For example, the scene in The Two Towers where Éomer meets Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli and asks whether they are "elvish folk". (You may recall the three are wearing Elven cloaks.) The Rohirrim may be not be able to clearly identify an Elf, but they know something of them, or at least have heard rumors of them, for instance, their knowledge of Galadriel as a powerful worker of magic. (They refer to her as a 'Witch' in LOTRO. Éomer refers to her as "Lady in the Golden Wood", then a few sentences later mentions "net-weavers" and "sorcerers".) Regardless, that would not excuse the Rohirrim of improperly using the term 'Dwimordene'--a word in their own language meaning a particular place, not the people from that place--to refer to an Elf or Elves.

More evidence that Wynmar is using the term 'Dwimordene' to refer to the Elves:

Wynmar says, ''Perhaps it is the magic of the Dwimordene that makes Noriel so fair, and her sword-skill so sharp!''

Note that he states "the magic of the Dwimordene", not "the magic of Dwimordene". He is clearly referring to the people and not to the land.