Thread: Warden Threat Update 6

I keep seeing a lot of people talking about threat. Here is what an extract of info on the tooltip side is... Hopefully they are at least somewhat close:

Increased Theat

Gambit Builders

Warden's Taunt (F)-
No Stance- Damage and DoT (Light), plus 2% partial BPE, 5% chance to apply +5% Threat from Heals/Dmg,
Determination- Warden's Taunt- Damage and DoT (Light), plus 2% partial BPE, 5% chance to apply +5% Threat from Heals/Dmg,


Gambits


Slightly Increased Threat

Goad-
Determination- AoE Damage and DoT (Light)(Max 6, 6m), plus Slightly Increased Threat


Increased Threat

Precise Blow-
Determination- Mainhand Dmg, Increased Threat + Slight Increased Threat over Time

Offensive Strike-
Determination- Melee Dmg x 2, Increased Threat

War Cry-
Determination- AoE Dmg plus DoT (Light) (Max 10, 10m), HoT, Evade Buff, Increased Threat


Moderately Increased Threat

Brink of Victory-
Determination- Damage plus DoT (Light), Moderately Increased Threat

Piercing Strike-
Determination- Dmg Ranged x2 plus Light, Moderately Increased Threat


Greatly Increased Threat
Spear of Virtue-
Determination- Damage (Melee x2 plus Light), Greatly Increased Threat

Surety of Death-
Determination- Dmg (Melee + Light), DoT (Light), Greatly Increased Threat, Evade Buff


Threat over Time

Precise Blow-
Determination- Mainhand Dmg, Increased Threat + Slight Increased Threat over Time

Exalation of Battle-
Determination- AoE DoT (Light)(Max 10, 6m), Increased Threat over Time


Threat Transfer

Maddening Strike-
Determination- Melee Dmg, +300 Crit Def, +225 Phys Mit, +225 Tact Mit, Slight Fellowship Threat Transfer

Dance of War-
Determination- plus Evade, +600 Crit Def, +338 Phys/Tact Mit, Transfers Moderate Threat from Fellowship

Aggression-
Determination- Dmg (Melee), Transfers Moderate Threat from Fellowship Members (25m)

Conviction-
Determination- Group Hot, Transfers Moderate Threat from Fellowship



Threat Reduction

Gambit Builders

Shield Bash (Sh)-
Assailment- Behind the Shield- 5% chance to apply -300 Cry Resist Rating (May be level dependant), 5% chance to apply -5% Threat from Heals/Dmg, Plus 1.5% Rng Dmg


Gambits

Goad-
Assailment- AoE Damage and DoT (Light)(Max 6, 6m), plus Slightly Decreased Threat

Defensive Strike-
Assailment- Melee Dmg, Slightly Decreased Threat

Safeguard-
Assailment- Melee Dmg, Decreased Threat, DoT (Light)

Dance of War-
Assailment- plus Evade, Decreased Threat, DoT (Light)

Deflection-
No Stance- Melee Dmg, Greatly Decreased threat
Determination- Melee Dmg, Greatly Decreased threat
Recklessness- Melee Dmg, benefits from stance, Greatly Decreased threat
Assailment- Melee Dmg, Greatly Decreased threat

Shield Up-
Assailment- Reduces Fellowship amount of Threat from Dmg and Healing by 10%

Shield Mastery-
Assailment- Reduces Fellowship amount of Threat from Dmg and Healing by 20%

Conviction-
Assailment- Group Hot, Reduces Threat from Fellowship from Dmg/Healing by 99%

Great summary! Thanks for posting it.

--Harper

It seems that Dance of War is missing on the threat transfer list, but apart from that great summary, as Harper already said xD

Originally Posted by JuanD

It seems that Dance of War is missing on the threat transfer list, but apart from that great summary, as Harper already said xD

Good catch.. Updated here and in my main sheet.

Thanks for this, finally started leveling my warden and thinking about new rotations for threat and it helped alot.

I did a few quick and HIGHLY unscientific threat tests today, and may get around to more skills if I have the time and motivation, this seems like a good spot to post.

SoV and SoD - I tested these with no threat legacies or traits, and after accounting for the actual damage of the skill, it took around 5000 damage to morale to pull a mob.

PB - Same as above, i had something that was dpsing slowly, so I'm sure all the threat over time had expired. This also took about 5000 morale to pull, so the cumulative ToT is about the same as the upfront threat of SoV and SoD.

EoB - This was the main skill i wanted to test, and unfortunately i didn't have much time to test it as the friend who was helping me only had a couple minutes. I had no threat traits, but unfortunately did have a maxed threat legacy equipped for the first test. After subtracting the damage of EoB and half the heals I received from it, it took 13000 morale of damage to pull the mob. After I realized i had the wrong weapon equipped I quickly swapped and hit EoB on a 10k mob who my friend then killed without ever taking aggro (time constraints, couldn't do a proper test).

Quick summary of some very flawed testing on a few aggro skills:
SoV/SoD/PB total threat: about 5000 morale
EoB with maxed Fi-Sp threat legacy (no traits): about 13000 morale of threat
EoB without traits or legacies: >9000 morale of threat

Again, this was some very quick testing and should be treated as far from completely accurate, but i think it gives a decent starting point for me to move forward with doing some more accurate tests and for planning out which gambits are most valuable (btw, if anyone on nimrodel wants to offer to help, send a tell/mail to geirskogul).

And what happened with War Cry? for me its not so effective anymore =/

Originally Posted by adebayor

And what happened with War Cry? for me its not so effective anymore =/

3/12/2012 Orion: War-cry: The bonus threat associated with the skill will be returning with the hotfix.

Great thread with a nice layout. This should be stickied!

This should help what some of those terms mean.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

Lets see if I can answer at least some of your questions.

Warden Threat effects stack completely with other Threat effects and with themselves.

The descriptions for the magnitude of a Threat effect are absolute. A Moderate threat increase does the same amount of Threat on a Tier 2 gambit as a Tier 5 Gambit.

The magnitude of threat effects is approximately:
.5x -Slightly increased threat
1x -Moderately increased threat
2x -Increased threat
3x -Greatly increased threat

All Warden Threat over Time effects last 16 seconds with 4 second pulses. The duration is not increased by traits but the magnitude of each pulse is increased by some traits.

Warden heals do increase threat for each pulse of healing, though some monsters care more about healing threat than others.

spelunker, I tested the same stuff yesterday and had roughly the same numbers for those gambits but a tiny bit higher. We waited the full 16 seconds before having anybody else hit the mob though.

Updated to put WarCry in its rightful spot.

The magnitude of threat effects is approximately:
.5x -Slightly increased threat
1x -Moderately increased threat
2x -Increased threat
3x -Greatly increased threat

The "Moderately increased threat" and the regular "Increased threat" are switched, right?

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

The magnitude of threat effects is approximately:
.5x -Slightly increased threat
1x -Moderately increased threat
2x -Increased threat
3x -Greatly increased threat

The "Moderately increased threat" and the regular "Increased threat" are switched, right?

Any idea where "Sizable Increase to Threat" falls in this list? My Javelin of Ire has this effect on it

Thanks in advance,

Leighf

Originally Posted by Leighf

Any idea where "Sizable Increase to Threat" falls in this list? My Javelin of Ire has this effect on it

Thanks in advance,

Leighf

That description is on an item from pre update 6, maybe even pre-Moria, and, frankly, is something you will stop using when you get your legendary items going into Moria. So... probably the size is pretty small now, but was big for its time, pre-legendary item release..

Originally Posted by Darlgon

Increased Theat

Gambit Builders

Warden's Taunt (F)-
No Stance- Damage and DoT (Light), plus 2% partial BPE, 5% chance to apply +5% Threat from Heals/Dmg,
Determination- Warden's Taunt- Damage and DoT (Light), plus 2% partial BPE, 5% chance to apply +5% Threat from Heals/Dmg,

That should be "slightly increased threat".

Originally Posted by spelunker

SoV and SoD - I tested these with no threat legacies or traits, and after accounting for the actual damage of the skill, it took around 5000 damage to morale to pull a mob.

PB - Same as above, i had something that was dpsing slowly, so I'm sure all the threat over time had expired. This also took about 5000 morale to pull, so the cumulative ToT is about the same as the upfront threat of SoV and SoD.

This doesn't compare well with the old info as some others posted already;

.5x -Slightly increased threat
1x -Moderately increased threat
2x -Increased threat
3x -Greatly increased threat

PB has 2x and .5x, SoV 3x.

2+0.5 doesn't equal 3x. It would be very nice to have some fresh information on this from the devs.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

2+0.5 doesn't equal 3x. It would be very nice to have some fresh information on this from the devs.

Why is fresh information needed ?
Yeah, 2+0.5 does not equal 3x, but your assumption that PB has 2x and .5 was wrong in the first place:
Threat over time effects tick 4 times every 4 seconds.
So PB would be at 2+ 4x.5 = 4x after 16 seconds.

So it's actually well in the error margins, especially as SoV does more dmg than PB does.

Originally Posted by Minyacairwen

Why is fresh information needed ?
Yeah, 2+0.5 does not equal 3x, but your assumption that PB has 2x and .5 was wrong in the first place:
Threat over time effects tick 4 times every 4 seconds.
So PB would be at 2+ 4x.5 = 4x after 16 seconds.

So it's actually well in the error margins, especially as SoV does more dmg than PB does.

Because .5x, 1x, 2x and 3x were approximations in the first place, simplified to give us a hint.

I never imagined PB to do that much threat. I thought it was .5x just spread out. In any case 3x to 4x is a greater error then 2.5x to 3x. Spelunker said he removed the applied dmg from the equation.

So, in short, we know nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Minyacairwen

So it's actually well in the error margins, especially as SoV does more dmg than PB does.

True. Plus threat can crit separate from actual attack crits, so without testing it a ton of times to get a large enough data sample, you can't really know if any of the PB threat ticks critted, or if the SoV threat crits, etc. It's all just an approximation.

The 1/2x, 1x, 2x, and 3x values are still correct as far as the relationship between the various increased threat values. What has happened in Isengard is that the 'x' has greatly increased over what it was pre-Isengard.

Any Wardens having issues holding threat should also try out the various legacies that increase threat. They were all increased at the same time.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

The 1/2x, 1x, 2x, and 3x values are still correct as far as the relationship between the various increased threat values. What has happened in Isengard is that the 'x' has greatly increased over what it was pre-Isengard.

Any Wardens having issues holding threat should also try out the various legacies that increase threat. They were all increased at the same time.

Thanks for the update Graalx.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

The 1/2x, 1x, 2x, and 3x values are still correct as far as the relationship between the various increased threat values. What has happened in Isengard is that the 'x' has greatly increased over what it was pre-Isengard.

Any Wardens having issues holding threat should also try out the various legacies that increase threat. They were all increased at the same time.

I wish there was a way to affect 'X' other than level and legacy. Scaling it by might, traits, or even a carving would go a long ways towards wardens being able to manage threat vs. survivability. DPS is very stat and gear dependent. Threat appears to be purely level dependent (with a kicker from legacies).

--Harper

Originally Posted by Harperelle

I wish there was a way to affect 'X' other than level and legacy. Scaling it by might, traits, or even a carving would go a long ways towards wardens being able to manage threat vs. survivability. DPS is very stat and gear dependent. Threat appears to be purely level dependent (with a kicker from legacies).

--Harper

isn't that basically what the trait terrible visage is doing?

Originally Posted by Harperelle

... or even a carving ...

I like that idea! I haven't really had problems with threat but I would use a +threat carving before (for example) the +light damage or whatever else. Most of the time I'm on the physical or tactical mitigation carvings but I think a +threat carving would be a good alternative.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

The 1/2x, 1x, 2x, and 3x values are still correct as far as the relationship between the various increased threat values. What has happened in Isengard is that the 'x' has greatly increased over what it was pre-Isengard.

Thanks Graal.

also

Originally Posted by Graalx2

Any Wardens having issues holding threat should also try out the various legacies that increase threat. They were all increased at the same time.

Did I miss something apart from Fi-Sp Threat up or does he mean TV trait​?

Originally Posted by Graalx2

The 1/2x, 1x, 2x, and 3x values are still correct as far as the relationship between the various increased threat values. What has happened in Isengard is that the 'x' has greatly increased over what it was pre-Isengard.

Any Wardens having issues holding threat should also try out the various legacies that increase threat. They were all increased at the same time.

Why not let everyone know what 'x' really is? Put it in the character screen along side all the other stats.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Why not let everyone know what 'x' really is? Put it in the character screen along side all the other stats.

That'd take away the (fun) necessity of experimenting and getting to know how well individual DPS'ers play. It would also be a step closer to aggro meters; as it stands the little ambiguity about how much threat we have at any given moment means dps has to proactively manage their aggro.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Why not let everyone know what 'x' really is? Put it in the character screen along side all the other stats.

I always thought 'x' was the auto attack damage.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Why not let everyone know what 'x' really is? Put it in the character screen along side all the other stats.

X=42

Moar werds

Does anybody know if the "Fist Gambit Critical Rating" legacy will increase the chance of a threat crit? Could this be a stealth threat up legacy?

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

Thanks Graal.
Did I miss something apart from Fi-Sp Threat up or does he mean TV trait​?

It appears that almost all of the old +Threat Legacies have been re-purposed. So err, yes, I meant the Fi-Sp Threat up legacy.

Originally Posted by Lazlo_Hollyfeld

Does anybody know if the "Fist Gambit Critical Rating" legacy will increase the chance of a threat crit? Could this be a stealth threat up legacy?

No it doesn't increase the chance of a threat crit. Warden threat effects only accept percentage based modifiers to crit chance. It sounds like a decent idea for a new legacy though.

Originally Posted by Graalx2 No it doesn't increase the chance of a threat crit. Warden threat effects only accept percentage based modifiers to crit chance. It sounds like a decent idea for a new legacy though.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

It appears that almost all of the old +Threat Legacies have been re-purposed. So err, yes, I meant the Fi-Sp Threat up legacy.

Is it *possible* then that our base-line threat was set lower with
the expectation that we would be increasing it with several legacies,
but as it turns out that there is only ONE (which I have) and that is
why it feels a bit on the low to some of us?

Originally Posted by JLotro

Is it *possible* then that our base-line threat was set lower with
the expectation that we would be increasing it with several legacies,
but as it turns out that there is only ONE (which I have) and that is
why it feels a bit on the low to some of us?

Seems a little more likely that Graal was helpfully trying to explain the connection back to a post from long ago when he was in charge of warden development and got the same sort of warden culture shock we've all experienced with Orion's Massively Multi-Gambit Warden Revamp. If Orion had said something like this, maybe you'd be on to something....


More generally, can we try to be clearer about what we are comparing our threat perceptions to? I have a sense that when some people say threat post-update seems lower and others say it seems higher the difference would make a lot more sense if we knew what rotation pre- and post-update each of them was comparing. As it is, I can't make heads or tails of the experiences being reported in these discussions. They are almost as vague about threat as the in-game information.

Originally Posted by forceofnone

More generally, can we try to be clearer about what we are comparing our threat perceptions to? I have a sense that when some people say threat post-update seems lower and others say it seems higher the difference would make a lot more sense if we knew what rotation pre- and post-update each of them was comparing. As it is, I can't make heads or tails of the experiences being reported in these discussions. They are almost as vague about threat as the in-game information.

It is actually very easy to test out threat, just go hit a Limlight mob with (insert threat skill here), don't auto-attack and have DPS open up at the right time and see when the mob turns. Take that info and apply it to group play and you'll get a very good idea of what you have to do to get a good threat lead on the group you run with. Threat has gone down for sure but my testing shows that EoB with TV trait and threat legacy is roughly 30,000 worth of damage. 30,000 worth of damage per skill execution is huge, not even counting the threat you'll be building/leaching just from putting self buffs up.

Armed with that information, I still can't see needing any more threat. How is it that people are losing aggro when you can get such a large lead from only EoB alone?

HAVING SAID THAT... MAKE SURE TO READ BELOW...

There have been a couple of times recently where my threat has been in the toilet. I was losing many mobs when even spamming EoB, and kept thinking ###... I made sure I was in the proper stance, and still things were peeling from one Raging Blade a few seconds after the fight started. The last 2 times this happened, I re-logged my warden and the issue was fixed immediately. The next time this happens I'll make sure to bug it.

Originally Posted by JLotro

Is it *possible* then that our base-line threat was set lower with
the expectation that we would be increasing it with several legacies,
but as it turns out that there is only ONE (which I have) and that is
why it feels a bit on the low to some of us?

Base line threat balancing does not use the presence or absence of any particular +threat legacies. Legacies are intended to be bonuses not requirements.

Originally Posted by horus418

There have been a couple of times recently where my threat has been in the toilet. I was losing many mobs when even spamming EoB, and kept thinking ###... I made sure I was in the proper stance, and still things were peeling from one Raging Blade a few seconds after the fight started. The last 2 times this happened, I re-logged my warden and the issue was fixed immediately. The next time this happens I'll make sure to bug it.

That sounds extremely weird to say the least, but is good to have the info, thanks.

Is someone else experiencing this? Maybe this at least one of the reasons why the opinios about threat are so different. Anyway, this need to be looked at by the devs ASAP to verify what is going on

Originally Posted by horus418

It is actually very easy to test out threat, just go hit a Limlight mob with (insert threat skill here), don't auto-attack and have DPS open up at the right time and see when the mob turns. Take that info and apply it to group play and you'll get a very good idea of what you have to do to get a good threat lead on the group you run with. Threat has gone down for sure but my testing shows that EoB with TV trait and threat legacy is roughly 30,000 worth of damage. 30,000 worth of damage per skill execution is huge, not even counting the threat you'll be building/leaching just from putting self buffs up.

Armed with that information, I still can't see needing any more threat. How is it that people are losing aggro when you can get such a large lead from only EoB alone?

HAVING SAID THAT... MAKE SURE TO READ BELOW...

There have been a couple of times recently where my threat has been in the toilet. I was losing many mobs when even spamming EoB, and kept thinking ###... I made sure I was in the proper stance, and still things were peeling from one Raging Blade a few seconds after the fight started. The last 2 times this happened, I re-logged my warden and the issue was fixed immediately. The next time this happens I'll make sure to bug it.

Horus, I am glad to see that you have finally seen the problem!

Yes, 30K from EOB should be enough, but it must not always be
working that way. I have experienced it more than a couple
times and have wondered if my toon was uniquely bugged.

Originally Posted by forceofnone

Seems a little more likely that Graal was helpfully trying to explain the connection back to a post from long ago when he was in charge of warden development and got the same sort of warden culture shock we've all experienced with Orion's Massively Multi-Gambit Warden Revamp. If Orion had said something like this, maybe you'd be on to something....


More generally, can we try to be clearer about what we are comparing our threat perceptions to? I have a sense that when some people say threat post-update seems lower and others say it seems higher the difference would make a lot more sense if we knew what rotation pre- and post-update each of them was comparing. As it is, I can't make heads or tails of the experiences being reported in these discussions. They are almost as vague about threat as the in-game information.

Re #1
Well I figure Graal is "in the know" a lot more than any regular
member of the forum, so it seemed worth asking.

Re #2
Often when threat problems are mentioned I see replies about
adjusting rotations. By the time I am mentioning a problem
I have already tried various permutations without solving the
problem. I am not comparing rotation X before and after the
update. I am comparing threat - the best I can achieve with
any combination.

Originally Posted by horus418

Threat has gone down for sure but my testing shows that EoB with TV trait and threat legacy is roughly 30,000 worth of damage. 30,000 worth of damage per skill execution is huge, not even counting the threat you'll be building/leaching just from putting self buffs up.

Are you sure its 30k? I saw in other threads that it was 14k. May be they measured without TV + Legacy. I never bothered to test it myself because I've had 0 problems with threat. If it is 30k as you over 16 sec that means almost 2k tps which means 2 eob every 16sec should make sure nothing is ever pulled off of you, no matter how may burgs you have. That's what I do now and nothing is ever pulled off of me but I was working under the 14k per eob threat so I also hit 2xagression every rotation. But if it is as you say then 2xaggression in every rotation is redundant and walaa! i have more time for buffs/heals.

So just to confirm you say that eob+tv+legacy will give us 30k or at least 25k(if we get unlucky with threat crits) threat in 16 sec?

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Are you sure its 30k? I saw in other threads that it was 14k. May be they measured without TV + Legacy. I never bothered to test it myself because I've had 0 problems with threat. If it is 30k as you over 16 sec that means almost 2k tps which means 2 eob every 16sec should make sure nothing is ever pulled off of you, no matter how may burgs you have. That's what I do now and nothing is ever pulled off of me but I was working under the 14k per eob threat so I also hit 2xagression every rotation. But if it is as you say then 2xaggression in every rotation is redundant and walaa! i have more time for buffs/heals.

So just to confirm you say that eob+tv+legacy will give us 30k or at least 25k(if we get unlucky with threat crits) threat in 16 sec?

Yes, EoB + TV + Legacy = at least 25,000 damage worth of threat. I'd hit the mob with EoB, wait for the full threat to tick off and tell my wife (LM/Hunter), to go to town. Sometimes she'd pull at 28k, sometimes at 31, so I figured saying roughly 30k is fine.

Also, I'd have her initiate combat sometimes with one skill to see how SoV will pull the mob back. While on her LM, if she'd start out with Burning Embers or LotrD, one single SoV would pull the mob to me, IF IT HIT. I didn't get too specific with that test, I just wanted a rough idea of what would happens if somebody accidentally popped off a skill first, so these were hits at and under 2k damage that I was pulling off. Ents or a Remorseless auto-crit type hit, I'm sure would be a different story.