If you roll with high quality dps and can hold aggro over anything, why have you not done Acid Challenge? If you have the dps to down him before the acid rises, it's far and away the simplest fight in there.
And I never said there were no good dps'ers on Ridder or something. That would be a more ridiculous claim than your original "I hold aggro over everything" gem. I simply said that generating the type of dps that is hardest to hold aggro off of (the type needed for 1:40 Acid Challenge and Shadow Challenge) takes more than just individuals - it takes quality supporting casts, group makeup, and coordination - aka elite raid groups. If you're part of one, why haven't you been tanking the fights that are most difficult to hold aggro in? If you're not part of one, why are you commenting as if you have a complete understanding of how hard it can be to hold aggro?
If you roll with high quality dps and can hold aggro over anything, why have you not done Acid Challenge? If you have the dps to down him before the acid rises, it's far and away the simplest fight in there.
And I never said there were no good dps'ers on Ridder or something. That would be a more ridiculous claim than your original "I hold aggro over everything" gem. I simply said that generating the type of dps that is hardest to hold aggro off of (the type needed for 1:40 Acid Challenge and Shadow Challenge) takes more than just individuals - it takes quality supporting casts, group makeup, and coordination - aka elite raid groups. If you're part of one, why haven't you been tanking the fights that are most difficult to hold aggro in? If you're not part of one, why are you commenting as if you have a complete understanding of how hard it can be to hold aggro?
i get bored of tanking and play mostly only my reaver...and ive been in raiding kins, not a huge achievement...
i get bored of tanking and play mostly only my reaver...and ive been in raiding kins, not a huge achievement...
Yet the game changed drastically since you last raided actively according to your posts. Therefore you have no grounds to make any claims on... MoM/SoM was a completely different era for tanking then these days. Dps is sky high whereas threat hardly increased.
Burgs are forced to completely reset their aggro or they will overtake you, whereas back then they were more of a support class, now their insane single-target dpsers.
Come back when you've tanked at least 2 out of 4 wings in ToO and have an actual idea of what ur talking about.
Edit: New content =/= T2(c), dps is much higher in raids because of more buffs, counter defence, debuffs on the boss, oathies, etc. and 6 and 3 man are of no use when discussing tanking, as that content is very easy to tank. It's like comparing kindergarten to university.
Yet the game changed drastically since you last raided actively according to your posts. Therefore you have no grounds to make any claims on... MoM/SoM was a completely different era for tanking then these days. Dps is sky high whereas threat hardly increased.
Burgs are forced to completely reset their aggro or they will overtake you, whereas back then they were more of a support class, now their insane single-target dpsers.
Come back when you've tanked at least 2 out of 4 wings in ToO and have an actual idea of what ur talking about.
Edit: New content =/= T2(c), dps is much higher in raids because of more buffs, counter defence, debuffs on the boss, oathies, etc. and 6 and 3 man are of no use when discussing tanking, as that content is very easy to tank. It's like comparing kindergarten to university.
t1 and t2 u dont get differnt buffs in a raid...fail...and u dont NEED 2 tank challenges, 2 understand tanking and how difficult it is/or isnt, the members in tier 2 and tier 1 is what make the difference ance since ive tanked for like everyone on this server (some of the best dpsers) and been able 2 hold aggro, i think i MIGHT know what im doing, atleast a tiny bit
If you haven't been tanking in recent raid content and only have, say BG to compare to, you're really comparing apples to oranges. Sure, tanking is tanking BUT with the huge increase in DPS of your fellows, a tank has to work much harder to maintain agro. Therefore what you knew before isn't completely the same now and you have to learn some new things to effectively tank this new raid content. Every tank who tanks the new content has had to make modifications to what they knew before, whether its changing some legacies, altering your skill rotation, reducing the number of skills used or whatever. Its simply different.
So to say that you can tank anything anywhere and have no problems w/out having done current content makes you sound ignorant. And to say that you have nothing to learn is just simply silly. Having said that, you're also right in that tanking is still tanking and that the skills you've learned are much the same and likely you could adapt fairly quickly.
t1 and t2 u dont get differnt buffs in a raid...fail...and u dont NEED 2 tank challenges, 2 understand tanking and how difficult it is/or isnt, the members in tier 2 and tier 1 is what make the difference ance since ive tanked for like everyone on this server (some of the best dpsers) and been able 2 hold aggro, i think i MIGHT know what im doing, atleast a tiny bit
*sigh*
The difference between T1 and T2 is that if you don't have enough DPS, you lose. Your claim that you've tanked for "the best" DPSers is a relative statement, but if you haven't beaten or even tanked T2 challenge wings, then you obviously aren't tanking for the best DPSers. The credibility of your statements is based on this. So your claims that it's easy to tank based on BG (over a year and 10 levels ago) and T1 are probably true for you, but they are an inaccurate measure when discovering limitations to the class which may or may not exist.
Last edited by jhwort; Apr 25 2012 at 12:07 PM.
Vernora ~ 65 Guardian ~ Endeavor
"The Guardian is a great class for elves because they can use the shield as a mirror when putting on lipstick."
Part of what I'm saying is hearsay - fine, lets throw those comments out.
Back to the facts and my original question: Riddermark has no kinships listed as beating Acid (challenge or regular) or Shadow (challenge or regular). Am I correct in assuming you have not tried to tank for a group that can do 1:40 Acid Challenge or Shadow Challenge?
Those are the two hardest situations to hold aggro through, afaik, given the type of dps that needs to be done to complete them. In fact, I have yet to see a screenie of a 1:40 Acid Kill with a guard tanking (although I think it could be done). If you haven't been tested in the hardest of aggro holding situations, how are you able to make the claims that you're making?
Did Acid challenge with a few (7) burglars yesterday and I think I have never had it so easy to tank a boss before.
1. Challenge 2. Challenge the Darkness 3. Engage 4. Guardian Threat 5. Champion dump agro on you 6. Boss dead.
I did use a few normal agro skills after Guardian Threat but with the agro I got from Guardian Threat and the champion I am pretty sure I could have stood there doing nothing and still had agro till the boss died.
And since you haven't seen a screenshot of a guardian tanking a 1:40 Acid kill here is one where it took 1:17
Did Acid challenge with a few (7) burglars yesterday and I think I have never had it so easy to tank a boss before.
1. Challenge 2. Challenge the Darkness 3. Engage 4. Guardian Threat 5. Champion dump agro on you 6. Boss dead.
I did use a few normal agro skills after Guardian Threat but with the agro I got from Guardian Threat and the champion I am pretty sure I could have stood there doing nothing and still had agro till the boss died.
And since you haven't seen a screenshot of a guardian tanking a 1:40 Acid kill here is one where it took 1:17
Here's my perspective on the debate, mostly as an outsider - I have a low level guardian but a capped minstrel and captain. Some of these points have been brought up by a few others on this thread.
1) In terms of basic dps/soloability, MMO developers tend to base class leveling/soloability in part around the need for those classes at end-game. If healers didn't have decent solo dps, they would rarely be leveled to cap, and group content would suffer for it. But mini dps is only really useful in solo landscape situations - its high burst AOE dps, unsustainable at a high level for very long. Mini's are almost never brought on a raid for their DPS, its not a viable dual role (and yes, we have a second set of traits, armor and jewelry that is needed for that dps to be viable). I'm finding my guard to be a solid solo-er as well. This is by design - cornerstone group classes have stances and traits for DPS primarily so that they can level quickly - otherwise, there would be an even bigger shortage of key classes at cap than there is now. My mini blows through solo content and drops groups of mobs quickly - but that doesnt mean I can add appreciable sustained dps on a raid boss relative to a pure DPS class. I feel like my guardian is in a similar position so far - the DPS stance is for easier solo leveling and filling in an extra raid spot, and not intended to be at the level of a sustained DPS specialist.
2) There may be a few champs that can tank ToO T2, and that's a huge achievement for them. But its also a huge achievement for the group - healers for being able to keep that champ up, and DPS for managing their aggro. I highly doubt that champ tank in glory and rocking 15,000+ morale is hitting for 1600 DPS.
3) The individual contribution each class makes to DPS isn't what ultimately determines the total damage output of the group. Total group DPS is a broad combination of DPS, aggro management, buffs, debuffs, healing, etc. A tank doesn't "win" by surviving the fight, they win by enabling the group to function at maximum efficiency. A champ tank with limited morale and their weaker threat management and mitigations relative to a pure tank means that the rest of the DPS is holding back, while the healers have to focus on defensive rather than offensive buffs. As a mini, I can up group damage by 10% and drop attack duration by 10% - roughly a 15% increase to group dps. But I can't do that with a squishy tank, nor can hunters go full blast grouping with someone with lower threat generation. Likewise, a captain that has to go with revealing mark to keep a champ tank up, rather than telling mark to enable +10% damage on the boss, is doing so at a significant loss to group DPS. My captain doesn't put out nearly the DPS of a hunter. But with the right buffs and focused attacking on my own, my net contribution to group DPS (my DPS and the extra DPS I make others do) I can add nearly as much total DPS to the group as a DPS class.
Yes, champs can tank a lot of content, so can captains. And a guardian or mini can be perfectly viable as DPS on most content as well. With the exception of the hardest challenges in the game, the fights are based around a degree of flexibility to allow for different class mixes, skill levels, gear levels and so on in a group - there is a healthy margin of error, or for content to be done, but done more slowly. Using a guard tank, in non-faceroll situations, enables the rest of the group to function much better. A champ or cappy tanked instance will work, but the margin for error is much lower - the rest of the group has to be on the ball for it to work, and there is less room for flexibility in other classes. I'll heal a six-man with a champ tank on my mini, or with a guard tank on my captain. Healing a champ tank with my captain is not really a possibility for most content.
Long story short - Guards are perfectly good tanks just as they are, and pushing for a few hundred extra DPS isn't going to fundamentally change their playstyle or value to the group. I've yet to see a GLFF shout out with "5/6 for Foundry, need champ to main tank" but I see guards accepted as an extra DPS in those instances all the time, and they do just fine. They aren't top tier raid DPS, but champs aren't top tier raid tanks, regardless of what epic things a few elites can pull off with a ton of support from the rest of the raid.
Having a capped champ, mini, guard and warden I've found the guard is the least interesting to play or raid on. It lacks any sense of rush or adrenaline to it unlike the other three.
Champ is an awesome pedal to the floor see how fast you can go death machine that can also switch into off-tank mode with a stance change and gear swap. You can keep doing more things to squeeze out just a little bit more damage and it is a blast.
Mini is a nerve wracking game of keeping those bars green. You need to watch and pay attention and think about what heals or buffs you need up at a moment.
Warden is a terrifying blast to tank with as you watch your health wax and wain and think and time your buffs and heals. Balancing between threat and survival constantly knowing a single mistake can destroy you.
On the other hand I found the guard slow and lifeless. You can't do anything proactively. You have to wait for re-actives. When they happen you push the same few skills every time. Nothing seems challenging. Threat control is a matter of gear and a little luck. Maybe it is just me but guard just feels so boring and uninspired to play either as tank or DPS. Even if you aren't geared well survival is still easy and simple. Just hit pledge and pop off re-actives as the healer does their job. There isn't anything interesting about tanking. No balancing no thinking involved. Need a block event? Hit ignore the pain. Loose a mob? Hit challenge or engage. Taking a lot of hits? Pop pledge. Sit back rinse and repeat and eat a sandwich. Barely need to pay attention on a guard.
One thing forgotten. Aoe Threat generation that does not do damage also does not break mezzed mobs. So you can keep building aggro on them without worrying about upsetting everyone with breaks. Damage aoe threat does not have this ability. And if you think that there is a solution by staying away from the target when doing aoe damage threat? what happens when the mob is finally released? It runs strait to the only members of the group who is able to generate threat on it, the healers. All warden aoe threat does damage, but... a warden can also heal the group a respectable amount building threat while also taking threat away from the healers in the process. That's the only reason they can get away with aoe damage threat. They just need to make sure they keep a safe distance away from the mezzed targets to avoid doing damage to them. But then maybe guards can split it 50/50. half aoe threat long range generates a small amount of threat with no damage while the others do light damage aoe larger threat in a shorter range. Possible solution?
I would like to see the Guardian get a bit more DPS boots though. Their defense is incredible; it makes me jealous every time I play as something else. But... a little more attack power never hurts does it?
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Originally Posted by Fyrexiel
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