They also included a skill called "ignore the pain" which grats a block response. No more block problem at the start of a fight.
Sure, if you wait for the cooldown each time. The block response is nice but the cooldown on that skill is absurd.
Originally Posted by CrusaderOfMetal
I actually enjoy the reactive gameplay of tanking, though I think there should be more skills to open a block event. Remove that stupid trait for FtE and add a new one to make Force Opening be usable out of overpower and open a block event. Problem solved.
Great idea. However, given how long Guards have been telling the devs that the FtE trait is completely useless, I doubt it will happen.
Originally Posted by SaintBass
Itemization is a separate issue, that affects some classes more than others, but the fact is that Guards miss and are resisted quite a lot and there is no viable mechanic in the primary stats or finesse rating to deal with that. So, while some classes are able to "Hyperfocus" on one or two main attributes, Guards have to still have to try to strike a balance of a few attributes to not have to deal with some pretty serious downsides.
Well said.
The basic problem with the class, one which has been present since Moria, continues to be: if we're not needed for raid tanking, we're not needed at all.
Like I said, we DPS about as well as Champs tank. If you don't beleive me then try ToO with zero guardians and get back to us. In most group content other than raids and the toughest challenges, however, you can take multiples of either class and still be fine.
I will take this time to direct you to a conversation with Kamriel who on your server is tanking t2 ToO just fine with more success than with guardians (threat wise at least) as far as I've heard.
Originally Posted by Comma44
Yikes how much more morale do you want? I can already get to 17.5k when I'm turtled up and I know where I could get another 500-1k in morale to put me up there with most guards. Champion tanking has become a pretty awesome thing and glory stance is actually useful. Instead of dpsing for agro I can actually get in glory and hold agro over everyone else by using a more tanking based rotation. That and our survivability is far far improved. But that's not to say you can just trait 5 blues and pop in glory - you need the proper gear to swap into to be able to run a proper build with morale and mitigations. Going into T2 Orthanc with a 10k build will not get you far, that's for sure.
Originally Posted by Comma44
I've tanked fire/frost as well as Shadow boss - Bukot on my champ. Agro is not an issue as reprisal and rising are insanely awesome, one could argue that maintaining agro on a champ is easier than on a guard or warden.
One of many champs who are not only tanking successfully but performing better than guardians/wardens. It's currently being used by a few the progression kins, of course most people don't use champions for the same reason wardens have been brought into raids since Moria. Bringing a guard has been the same way since RoI.
Only reason for using guardians/wardens.
1) Pity invites for friends.
2) Ignorance of champion tanking abilities.
3) Poor trial runs leading to avoiding future attempts regardless of performance increases or decreases.
Guardians might be better than champs for OT roles in raids but those OT roles can be handled by champs just as well.
As for damage, the difference isn't as big as people make it out to be. Most people posting parses on the forums are well... struggling with their rotation IMO. There definitely needs to be a increase as there is a notable difference, though a guardian makes up for a small amount of it with a decent amount of utility.
Champions are stronger in almost every way the only thing guardians are really better at currently is the ability to start CJ, I'm fine with not being the best tank class as long and the other 3 classes capable of tanking are not so far apart from each other just like I'm fine with not being the best DPS as long as the same thing happens.
as a serious response to why our AOE threat skills don't do damage, they're really great for building threat on mezzed targets without breaking the mezzes.
of course they still break fears, which is annoying, but still.
as for everything else, i honestly can't take this thread seriously.
You are bashing the very code of what the guardian is about:reactive gameplay. Short OODA loop.
I think you might want to check out other classes.
I think everyone here is reacting with some strong emotion... What the guard WAS and IS may be the same at the present time, but let us look at LOTRO as a whole...
Minstrels are about morale increase for the fellowship. I think we generally can agree the mini is a 'healer' type of class. Yet, they now have great DPS. Does that mean they are not the healer type? Does it mean they can now solo better? Are they no longer a Healer because the new update 'bashes the very code of what the" minstrel is about? I don't think so, but I do understand where you are coming from...
Class updates attempt to balance the game. With the new Warden update, the Guard is not THE tank...but A tank--this might be more of a 'bash' to the 'very code' of what the guardian is about than how the skills are put into play. I don't mind the current system, but I don't know why a tank's ability needs to be reactive. Having a guard be non-reactive doesn't mean he isn't a guard--or the new 'warden' isn't a warden.
The thread is about what HE/SHE wants to see... You don't have to agree, but he/she makes good points about the evolution of classes and how the Guard is still ... unchanged. You may like that, you may not. Great---everyone is entitled to an opinion. There is NO need to bash anyone for having an opinion. Like belly-buttons...
With the Warden update, Guards WILL lose aggro and will get reactions only if protection is on warden-if warden keeps aggro. That is a solid statement for many guards who play with wardens--it may not be true for everyone... Little is... If the Guard can't keep aggro, why are we reactionary? Why be required to have Protection on someone so we can be a use? Is any other class so limited? Yes, I know the Warden skill will be nerfed in the next update (according to devs)... Likely we will again be kings of aggro-management. Yet, would it hurt to have more self-healing or DPS? Does that change our aggro-management or tanking? Or, might it just make playing a little more fun? Nothing wrong with being able to take a beating and still kill quickly. Does it?
Guard is my fav. class, and I've a warden (about 60). I've a LM (70s), ... I'd like to see the Guards get healing or dps simply to let me do more stuff--not remove what I can already do. Similar to what has happened to the Warden, Mini, ...
I also love the Capt... I can only imagine what is being said on their forum with the 1st skirmish soldier and now the soldier on the landscape... Poor capts just can't get respect :P We all like OUR classes (thus is why we play them). We can all disagree and get along...
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree...
However, we could support what others say since it might be correct and might lead to better play for us all
The tanking armor gives you a good chunk of might, and you can find good tanking jewelry with might on it as well. With ROI, you need to mix and match your jewelry and armor to get the build you want. One piece might give you nothing but Vitality/avoidance, so you supplement that with another piece that is pure might or whatever else you want. If you want to DPS with you Guardian, you need to pick up the DPS gear not the tanking gear. The DPS gear has 120+ might on each piece. I'm thinking here that you just havent' seen everything that is available to Guardians yet.
If Overpower is not good enough for you, you might want to play an actual DPS class. We have a role to play in the game which is tanking. There isn't a healing spec, a buffing spec, or a crowd control spec for Guardians either.
I hear you... What I don't know is do other classes have to have different sets of armor to do the two different things you are talking about? For instance, does a warden need to alter her armor to DPS or support? Does a mini? I know we can alter armor sets and get better DPS, but then you aren't just a tank..., you are off tanking--which can be done by many classes, like the Champ... I could argue the Champ might be better at off tanking than the guard. Now, I know Guards that DPS all the time--great! There is no 'right' way to play in mho. This is a game, and I play simply for enjoyment--so I don't group with 'too serious' players who have a single 'right way' to do things...
If Wardens, Minis, and Capts have to switch armor sets to do different styles of play, perhaps you are right. I ask because my LM only has to switch traits, not armor, to alter his play-style. I don't know what other classes have to do...
I will take this time to direct you to a conversation with Kamriel who on your server is tanking t2 ToO just fine with more success than with guardians (threat wise at least) as far as I've heard.
One of many champs who are not only tanking successfully but performing better than guardians/wardens. It's currently being used by a few the progression kins, of course most people don't use champions for the same reason wardens have been brought into raids since Moria. Bringing a guard has been the same way since RoI.
Only reason for using guardians/wardens.
1) Pity invites for friends.
2) Ignorance of champion tanking abilities.
3) Poor trial runs leading to avoiding future attempts regardless of performance increases or decreases.
Guardians might be better than champs for OT roles in raids but those OT roles can be handled by champs just as well.
As for damage, the difference isn't as big as people make it out to be. Most people posting parses on the forums are well... struggling with their rotation IMO. There definitely needs to be a increase as there is a notable difference, though a guardian makes up for a small amount of it with a decent amount of utility.
Champions are stronger in almost every way the only thing guardians are really better at currently is the ability to start CJ, I'm fine with not being the best tank class as long and the other 3 classes capable of tanking are not so far apart from each other just like I'm fine with not being the best DPS as long as the same thing happens.
I have no doubt that an elite Champion can tank T2 raid content. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that an elite Captain could be just about as effective, as far as tanking goes, as a Champion.
The mistake you're making is assuming that all Champions (for that matter, all players) are elite. You can probably count on a single hand the number of Champions on each server who are skilled enough, geared well enough, and experienced enough to successfully main-tank T2 raids. Conversely, it takes a 'good' Guard to be able to main-tank T1, and a 'great', but not necessarily 'elite' one to tank T2. There's a far greater available pool of players in this category.
So why is this? Why can a good Guard handle what it takes an elite Champ to pull off? There's far more of a safety factor built into Guards, with their extra Crit defense, more easily maxed mitigations, and more extensive threat skills. A Champ has to be extremely good to deal with three dev crits in a row, whereas a Guard can weather it more easily.
I remember when someone successfully completed a tough instance (might have been a six-man, maybe a 12, I don't remember) using the LM's bear as the main tank. I didn't log in expecting GLFF to show '11/12, need LM for their bear tank' from that point forward :-) The players who can pull off these feats are elite, and thus relatively rare.
So please don't try to explain to us that the only reason Guards ever get into groups is because of 'pity' invites.
You have unwittingly answered the real question Davada. The issue is a very good Champ can tank every instance in this game. Where is the Guardian that can provide the same dps as an average Champ? As a guard, no matter my level of skill or the equipment I have I will never provide the dps a Champ can. So the issue is, the Champ can dps better than a Guard and has the ability (with skill) to tank every instance in the game. Do you now see the issue? Once more and more Champs learn how to do this (and they will) the need for a dedicated tank is reduced with every Champ that can be successful. If you have been around long enough you can remember how is was after Moria had been out for a while. Champs were the PREFERRED tanks once the content was understood. I can remember the DOZENS of posts here from IMOP Champs telling us to roll another toon because we were no longer needed.
This real issue:
(The tank) for a group only has to be as good as the content demands. Being waaaaaay better at tanking is just unnecessary.
Dps is the opposite. Being waaaaaaay better at dps is a HUGE advantage to the group.
Guards are great at tanking, but when "ok" is all you need, why not choose a class that can meet the minimum tanking requirements needed for the content and can bring dps or some other thing to the table as well?
You have unwittingly answered the real question Davada. The issue is a very good Champ can tank every instance in this game. Where is the Guardian that can provide the same dps as an average Champ? As a guard, no matter my level of skill or the equipment I have I will never provide the dps a Champ can. So the issue is, the Champ can dps better than a Guard and has the ability (with skill) to tank every instance in the game. Do you now see the issue? Once more and more Champs learn how to do this (and they will) the need for a dedicated tank is reduced with every Champ that can be successful. If you have been around long enough you can remember how is was after Moria had been out for a while. Champs were the PREFERRED tanks once the content was understood. I can remember the DOZENS of posts here from IMOP Champs telling us to roll another toon because we were no longer needed.
This real issue:
(The tank) for a group only has to be as good as the content demands. Being waaaaaay better at tanking is just unnecessary.
Dps is the opposite. Being waaaaaaay better at dps is a HUGE advantage to the group.
Guards are great at tanking, but when "ok" is all you need, why not choose a class that can meet the minimum tanking requirements needed for the content and can bring dps or some other thing to the table as well?
It's not an 'apples to apples' comparison. Yes, I agree that an elite Champion can tank everything. And I also agree that an elite Guard cannot put out DPS that approaches the average Champion.
Being a 'good' tank is not the end-all-be-all. Being 'good' is not 'perfect', and an 'elite' Guard tank (or a Warden, in different ways) frees up raid resources that would otherwise be required. A Champion tank will require more healing attention than a Guard tank. A Champion will have more trouble gathering adds together (in trash fights, but also in boss fights with adds, of which there are many). If the Champion sees that the healer gets into trouble (for any reason), there's not much he can do, while a Guard can guarantee that that player will not die before the Guard dies. And the Guard has more effective panic buttons for dealing with emergencies (whether it's threat-related or just for pure survival). Using a Guard gives the raid a larger safety factor, which in turn allows them to generate a little more DPS, or perhaps skimp a little on healing. In the end, maybe it's a wash: maybe the added DPS is about what a Champ tank would generate anyway. But it's certainly not as cut and dry as you think.
It's not 'so-and-so Champ tanked everything, so it means that Champs are as good as Guards at tanking!'. It's all shades of gray.
There's also one more factor that works into this. On the whole, if someone rolls a Guard, it's because they want to get hit in the face with clubs, then laugh at their enemies and bang on their shield a little (i.e. they want to tank). Champions want to charge into a platoon of Orcs with their swords in full blender mode. I mean, if they could they'd wear a kilt made of swords and just spin until they're dizzy (i.e. they want to DPS).
Thus, a majority of Guards are going to prefer tanking, and a majority of Champs are going to prefer DPS (despite the fact that with effort they can tank). Maybe this will change over time.
I agree with you that Champ vs Guard as tank is shades of grey. That is my issue. If a Champ has situational use to a group as a tank and in some cases might even be more useful (let's say clearing adds on the way to the main boss fight) where is the shade of grey for the Guard? No matter what some may say, a guard in OP is in no way able to maintain the dps of a champ especially when it comes to several trash mob pulls. Sure, a guard will take less healing but champs chew through those mobs so quickly the healers really have about the same job, unless they can be stunned by the horn and then they actually may take less damage if the trash are burned down fast enough. I do not want to be anything other than a tank. In truth I hate that to do my dps role I must forgo the use of my shield. I would love to see other changes that provided some real benefit to having a Guard or Warden acting as a tank, such as a reduction to aoe damage to the group provided when a real tank class is maintaining aggro.
I guess it comes down to I just don't like not having a real secondary role that borders on the "shades of grey" to some other classes main job, and that other classes, that bring other things to the table, are able to do my job well enough to take my place at least in some situations.
The whole champ can tank/guards can not DPS-discussion is a little strange to me. I think it is a good thing that some of the classes are quite 'one-role'. The problem that might arise is when you play the class and are not satisfied with the role you have.
No one can expect the guardian to get a lot more DPS without having to sacrifice some other abilities. (Possible to do yes, but the outcries of OP from other classes could be heard on Mars - and maybe they would be correct...)
So to accomplish the wish for more DPS-heavy guardians we would end up with a 'not so good' tank that probably plays like, hm give me a sec, yes a champ!
There sure are more people than me who would be afraid of a future where there is ONE class with 24 different stances.
Now the OP did not WANT more dps, all he/she asked for was even more possibillities to fulfull his/her tanking-role, that surely can't be a bad thing can it? What champs can and can not do should have nothing to do with this.
If you could choose a future for the guard what would it be:
1. Put developer effort in making it a better guard?
or
2. Put developer effort in making it a better 'someting else'?
I hear a lot of complaining in 'my own yard' (hunters fyi) of lacking a secondary role. I dont agree, if hunters are going to get a change i would prefer them to make me even better at what i already am good at.
In my case that would be to give the guard better chance to keep baddies from me even if i am 'unlucky enough' to get a couple dev-crits in a row, or give me some small means to handle my own aggro a little easier than forcing me to not fulfill my primary - and some would say only - role: DPS.
I'm going to disagree with most in this thread. Yes, a well geared champ can tank most content, but it has very little to do with the skill level of the champ (or the skill level of the guard for that matter). I believe it's more about the skill level/gear of the healers. I think we can all agree on the fact that guards are going to be able to survive longer with less heals (more avoidance and more crit defense typically) So really it all comes down to keeping whoever is tanking alive - and that's up to whoever is healing.
Edit: I'll also add that the rest of the group/raid also has a hand in this too by knowing how to avoid damage (to help the healers) and using their buffs and debuffs properly.
Last edited by jhwort; Mar 26 2012 at 11:56 AM.
Vernora ~ 65 Guardian ~ Endeavor
"The Guardian is a great class for elves because they can use the shield as a mirror when putting on lipstick."
You have unwittingly answered the real question Davada. The issue is a very good Champ can tank every instance in this game. Where is the Guardian that can provide the same dps as an average Champ? As a guard, no matter my level of skill or the equipment I have I will never provide the dps a Champ can. So the issue is, the Champ can dps better than a Guard and has the ability (with skill) to tank every instance in the game. Do you now see the issue? Once more and more Champs learn how to do this (and they will) the need for a dedicated tank is reduced with every Champ that can be successful. If you have been around long enough you can remember how is was after Moria had been out for a while. Champs were the PREFERRED tanks once the content was understood. I can remember the DOZENS of posts here from IMOP Champs telling us to roll another toon because we were no longer needed.
This real issue:
(The tank) for a group only has to be as good as the content demands. Being waaaaaay better at tanking is just unnecessary.
Dps is the opposite. Being waaaaaaay better at dps is a HUGE advantage to the group.
Guards are great at tanking, but when "ok" is all you need, why not choose a class that can meet the minimum tanking requirements needed for the content and can bring dps or some other thing to the table as well?
Just because a guard can't equal champion DPS doesn't mean they can't fill in for one in most cases. Champs do not tank as well as guards. They just don't. How is it somehow a travesty that guards can't do top-tier DPS? Champs can tank in most situations yes but that's true for any class because most instances in LOTRO just aren't that hard to begin with. Just like you will be able to get through just about any LOTRO instance if you take an extra guard instead of a champ.
The bottom line is DPS is more important to you than tanking. That's a personal opinion and not an indication that the guardian class is broken.
Morale - (incomming damage -incomming healing) must leave a number greater than 0 for the tank. That is all that is required for success.
Now if I can contribute 1800 dps compared to your 200 and still maintain the above, which is actually the more desireable tank?
If the group must work a little harder and be a little better to maintain succes, is this more than the extra 1600 dps I provide? Why do so many of us tank in OP?
This last question I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER. What do you provide to a group that would be succesful with a dps tank instead of you?
These are REAL questions that you need to answer before you continue to say Guards are fine as they are.
Morale - (incomming damage -incomming healing) must leave a number greater than 0 for the tank. That is all that is required for success.
I disagree. There are mechanics that quite often lead to failing challenge modes, being punted off ledges (0 damage here but still a failure), etc. Many times the challenge IS the encounter for a particular group, and so failing the challenge is failing the encounter, regardless of how much morale the tank has left.
Originally Posted by Djasi
Now if I can contribute 1800 dps compared to your 200 and still maintain the above, which is actually the more desireable tank?
This depends on what you're enabling the rest of the group to do while you're doing your +1,600 DPS.
Originally Posted by Djasi
If the group must work a little harder and be a little better to maintain succes, is this more than the extra 1600 dps I provide? Why do so many of us tank in OP?
This last question I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER. What do you provide to a group that would be succesful with a dps tank instead of you?
An increased rate of success.
While not required for all groups and content a sturdier tank with more threat and survivability tools in the toolbox leads to a more controlled encounter:
more group-wide DPS
less aggro issues
less emergency heal situations
less overall healing required
less power issues
more leeway to deal with fight mechanics
You pretty much nailed it when you said the group may have to work a little harder and be a little better to maintain success. And while a non-DPS tank may not be needed in all situations and groups they generally result in a higher success rate.
Guard gameplay does seem to be somewhat dull, but I guess that comes in the package with the spec.
Lets not forget that Guardians are an entry level character class, designed so that anyone can play them to a satisfactory level. (That's not meant to offend anyone that specialises in this class....'good' tanks are actually hard to find implying they are are more difficult to play well)
Other classes, most obviously rune-keepers, wardens, lore-masters and Captains are more flexible in their roles and are even harder to play really well.
I have a guard. I like playing him. But then I am a basic sort of guy.
This last question I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER. What do you provide to a group that would be succesful with a dps tank instead of you?.
Can I answer this one....
Aside from my startling wit, a feeling of bon homie and my obvious good looks, I'd like to add that I also bring a handy little shield skill to help protect the squishier members of the team. My frequent morale heals take some pressure off the minnie reducing their threat. My shouts, vexing blow, shield bash and even whirling retaliation grab attention pretty quickly which allows the rest of the team to do their thing.
OK I agree that a champ can do more damage than me. Actually a bare-handed level 10 champ can probably do more damage than me with my 2nd age lvl75 sword, but hey...with all this armour getting in the way it's a wonder I manage to hit anything!
All jokes aside, with the many classes available to us and the cross-over potential, I'm not sure any single class is a must-have in a fellowship these days.
Here are some facts that seemed to be missing from the discussion:
- We can reach 15k in unbuffed tactical mitigation without the help of any class specific items. This gives us 70% of tactical mitigation raid buffed. Any heavy can do just the same and thus reach 70% tactical mitigation in raids.
- Don't ask about physical mitigation. Or hand in your tank card, you are not a certified tank.
- A champion building for tank will minimise his might (no need for blocks) in favor for agility (evade and parries) and vitality. He will not do as much damage as a glass cannon champion, but can finely tune how much agility/vitality he needs vs. how much might (and so do we).
- When changing stance, the champion gains a bit more abilities than our flat +X% damage, BA, stagger, FO and the change to protection.
Morale - (incomming damage -incomming healing) must leave a number greater than 0 for the tank. That is all that is required for success.
Now if I can contribute 1800 dps compared to your 200 and still maintain the above, which is actually the more desireable tank?
If the group must work a little harder and be a little better to maintain succes, is this more than the extra 1600 dps I provide? Why do so many of us tank in OP?
This last question I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER. What do you provide to a group that would be succesful with a dps tank instead of you?
These are REAL questions that you need to answer before you continue to say Guards are fine as they are.
What do I provide to a group over a Champ you ask? Well let us see. First I provide a better morale pool. While I agree that not having your morale go to zero is the ultimate goal I am sure that if you ask any healer out there if they would rather have the tank's morale be higher I am sure they will say yes. It simple give them a bigger buffer to work with. Second I bring a much better set of agro management tools. Third I bring a set of protection tools that are quite valuable. And lastly I bring higher raid wide DPS. Yes, you read that correctly MORE DPS not less.
There is a huge mistake that people make when they look at the disparity between champ damage and guard damage and conclude that champs mean more DPS. The thing that matters most from your tank is threat generation not damage as threat allows the other DPS to do more damage. Let's dig a little deeper into this and see if what I am saying is actually true. I am going to make two assumptions, both of which I think everyone can agree on. First that guards generate more threat than champs. And second, that DPS can generate more damage than champs can generate threat. If those two things are true then it simple remains to see if the number work out.
Let's start with your example of a guard doing 200 and your champ doing 1800 as our starting point. First off my moderately geared guard does nearly 200 with just his auto attacks. For the sake of argument let's say that our theoretical guard can do 400. So we only need to find 1400 more dps to make us equal. Where will we find it? Well there are other people in our raid so let's see what we can get from them. If there are 7 full DPS classes we only need to get 200 more DPS per person. So the question is can guard generate 200 more TPS than a champ. I think that is more than possible. As a matter of fact I would think that we could double that at least. The next question is can the DPS actually add 400 more DPS. This is a maybe maybe not question but given that the hunter forums are filled with hunters complaining that they cant go full out even with a guard as tank, I am certain that they can. Therefore it can be surmised that the reality of the situation is that guard or ward will result in higher raid DPS than a champ.
Morale - (incomming damage -incomming healing) must leave a number greater than 0 for the tank. That is all that is required for success.
I think someone else mentioned it before, but this is an equivalent statement:
Killing a boss requires tanks, heals, and DPS. Therefore, Champs and Minis are all that is required for success.
There's more that a tank can do (especially a Guard) than just these things. I've already explained them. But I think there's nothing else I can say that will get through to you. I think you should have rolled a Champ; DPS is obviously your priority, rather than tanking.
I believe it's more about the skill level/gear of the healers.
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is people are saying a guard shouldn't be able to DPS as well as a champ by saying champs can't tank as well.
Originally Posted by jhwort
I think we can all agree on the fact that guards are going to be able to survive longer with less heals (more avoidance and more crit defense typically) So really it all comes down to keeping whoever is tanking alive - and that's up to whoever is healing.
I don't agree with that.
Every ~28s a champ can pop a 3.7k bubble with out missing out on anything else in their rotation. A guard has a block advantage but it's diminished through finesse and a lot more P/E, tactical/physical mits are both at the same point buffed and crit defence are high enough for champs and because of a large amount of ICHR on their runes and the buff from bracing attack (20s CD and heals more than CaB without needing the block response).
And threat wise, a large amount of champ threat is passive and they have taunts, AoE threat skills, and a extremely powerful threat transfer.
Originally Posted by DavadaOT
Killing a boss requires tanks, heals, and DPS. Therefore, Champs and captains are all that is required for success.
This thread is very discouraging, I feel like I wasted 20 levels on a craptastic character now!
guards are, and have been for a very long time, in a very good place.
if you know your class well, you will always find a spot in groups and people asking you all the time to come tank for them.
most of the complaints in the OP are completely asinine, and are alleviated by simply rolling another class. guards work well in what they do, and if the playstyle doesn't jive with someone, changing the class to be like another isn't the solution. the player should go to the other class.
if you like the reactive style of guardians, i promise you that you will not have a craptastic character
This thread is very discouraging, I feel like I wasted 20 levels on a craptastic character now!
Don't listen to the naysayers. There is a small, weird sect of guardians that think we have to be DPS supermen in order to be viable in the game. I can assure you that is not the case. Guards are fun and very, very much in demand.
This thread is very discouraging, I feel like I wasted 20 levels on a craptastic character now!
I LOVE my guard. I ran solo for most of my levels in sword and board and enjoyed almost all of it. Yes there were a few times where the going was slow but they were very few. I even go into Limlight Gorge and solo the daily quests there. It takes time to kill 70+K elite masters whilst wearing my shield but I happen to enjoy that. Of course I might be crazy but at least I am happy in my craziness
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is people are saying a guard shouldn't be able to DPS as well as a champ by saying champs can't tank as well.
I believe the arguement you've made thus far is that guardians are inferior because champs can tank sufficiently enough and do more DPS. This has been brought up numerous times. I remember having this same discussion when BG was the end game raid. My point is, any class can tank as long as the healers can keep them alive. It's just typically easier for most healers to keep up a guardian.
Originally Posted by Hsahsirg
I don't agree with that.
Every ~28s a champ can pop a 3.7k bubble with out missing out on anything else in their rotation. A guard has a block advantage but it's diminished through finesse and a lot more P/E, tactical/physical mits are both at the same point buffed and crit defence are high enough for champs and because of a large amount of ICHR on their runes and the buff from bracing attack (20s CD and heals more than CaB without needing the block response).
And threat wise, a large amount of champ threat is passive and they have taunts, AoE threat skills, and a extremely powerful threat transfer.
How many major raiding kins are using champs to tank when they don't have to? I haven't heard of many, have you? But again, it doesn't matter what class is tanking if they can be kept alive by the healers.
Last edited by jhwort; Apr 04 2012 at 04:07 PM.
Vernora ~ 65 Guardian ~ Endeavor
"The Guardian is a great class for elves because they can use the shield as a mirror when putting on lipstick."
As one of the "Asinine" I am compelled to respond to many of the recent threads. The issue is simple. Guards are the very best at tanking but....
When content is unfamiliar and new, the gear offered as rewads for success not attained and the group does not know what to expect a Guard is the best choice hands down. But as the content is learned and players gain the rewards from being successful and tweak their play to maintain the best possible strats soon the difficult content becomes less and less difficult and in most cases becomes easy with the new gear and understanding of the content. What is then needed is not a class that makes the content even easier(easy mode), but a way to make the easy content go faster. As the healers get items that make healing easier and better and dps classes get better dps a tank that makes easy content even easier is redundant.
What those of of us "weird" guards have an issue with is that dps roles usually take up the greatest amount of slots in a group so a Champ can get an invite when the group has another Champ already. Very few groups will run with 2 guards (or more than 2 if in a raid) if they can get almost ANY other class instead. Then when content is learned and groups have profitted from the rewards of success, those same Champs can actually be the PREFERRED choice as a dps tank. What we are asking for is either some skill changes to make this disparity go away or the ability to provide something to the group just as nescessary as dps is.
As one of the "Asinine" I am compelled to respond to many of the recent threads. The issue is simple. Guards are the very best at tanking but....
When content is unfamiliar and new, the gear offered as rewads for success not attained and the group does not know what to expect a Guard is the best choice hands down. But as the content is learned and players gain the rewards from being successful and tweak their play to maintain the best possible strats soon the difficult content becomes less and less difficult and in most cases becomes easy with the new gear and understanding of the content. What is then needed is not a class that makes the content even easier(easy mode), but a way to make the easy content go faster. As the healers get items that make healing easier and better and dps classes get better dps a tank that makes easy content even easier is redundant.
What those of of us "weird" guards have an issue with is that dps roles usually take up the greatest amount of slots in a group so a Champ can get an invite when the group has another Champ already. Very few groups will run with 2 guards (or more than 2 if in a raid) if they can get almost ANY other class instead. Then when content is learned and groups have profitted from the rewards of success, those same Champs can actually be the PREFERRED choice as a dps tank. What we are asking for is either some skill changes to make this disparity go away or the ability to provide something to the group just as nescessary as dps is.
This just isn't true. Plenty of fellowships run with two guards with no problem. Most of the content just isn't that hard to begin with giving fellowships good flexibility. In my experience there's nothing wrong with two guards in a group. I've done it countless times. Less hassle for the healer and fellowship maneuvers galore.
Now Jeffor, first, I will not argue that a group may have more than 1 guard in it but for every fellow group that has 2 guards there are 1,000 groups with 2 champs. I do not believe this statement is far from actual fact if not an actual understatement. Second, you chose the one area of my arguement that has nothing to do with the issue at hand with Guards not being a class that has a viable 2nd role. As far as dps goes, I know you know that hunters, Burgs, RKs and Champs beat us hands down for dps and dps classes make up the majority of players on most servers. Those other classes provide buffs, heals rezzes and debuffs that provide things to the group as a whole. Other than hunters, we provide the least of this to a group. It irks me that in OP we actually provide more to the group in general by being able to debuff the boss 15% of the damage it outputs and assist a melee class by adding 2% more damage while we provide nothing similar while in tank mode. I would like to see this type of skill in my tanking arsenal. I would like for guards to actually have skills that povide something another class can not do while also providing their main role. In truth, I dont want that to be more dps. But something like a dps debuff to a mob that is being targeted by my skills, even if that skill REDUCED the damage I did while this skill was active. Even something small like that added to our taunts would be a huge and would not be OP for the class.
-Guardians are too dependent on having block even or parry event. This is very bad at the start of the fight because you don't have aoe threat skills ready. This events should be removed.
Use Challenge. Use Ignore the Pain when you get situations where you need a second AE taunt quickly. Slot Challenge the Darkness if that's not enough. Any Guardian TANK who cannot get aggro on 7+ mobs and hold it at the start of a fight is doing something wrong. They're using the wrong legacies on their epics, they're slotting the wrong traits in their builds, they're flat out doing something wrong.
When I run with another Guardian who is having aggro problems early in fights it never takes more than a quick conversation with them to figure out what is wrong and amazingly they then perform just fine after that. This is not rocket science it is tanking and Guardians have been given more than enough tools to get the job done with a high degree of predictability.
Originally Posted by Evanirsb
-Threat only skills like Litany of Defiance, Shield-taunt. Minstrel cry skills do damage, somehow the guardian cry doesn't do any damage.
Guardian skills that grab or build threat on a large number of mobs if you have slotted, traited properly:
1. Challenge
2. Challenge the Darkness (almost never slot this any more)
3. Litany of Defiance
4. Shield Taunt
5. Vexing Blow
6. Improved Whirling Retaliation
7. Sweeping Cut
The last 3 all do damage and they should be in your rotation. Vexing Blow and Sweeping Cut both hit 5 mobs minimum if you are slotted right. IWR hits 7. Hint: increasing the range at which your targeted melee skills hit really helps maintain aggro in hectic situations.
Originally Posted by Evanirsb
-Shield damage scales very bad and depends a lot on the guard belt.
I don't interact well with complaints based on gear. Get your gear. Until you have it I don't recognize your complaint as valid.
Originally Posted by Evanirsb
-Power recovery is bad. In overpower stance it's horrible. This completely kills the dps spec for guardians.
This is trait/spec/play based more than anything else. I never have problems with power DPSing in OP unless fear is running rampant on the raid/group and the people responsible for helping us out with that between pot cooldowns are slacking. I also don't compromise very much on what I use for a rotation. The only times I have minor issues with power are in fast AE situations where I have to keep hitting IWR as part of the rotation alongside Sweeping Cut and Vexing Blow. This only happens when there are a lot of adds and the raid is going to wipe if I'm not spamming the AE's. It is very possible to non-stop spam Vexing Blow and IWR with the chain to To the King and then Sweeping Cut (more on this later, dummies don't remotely tell the tale of Guardian DPS.)
Originally Posted by Evanirsb
-Tank gear without any damage. Lots of hp, avoidance and power. Zero strength.
Not sure what this complaint is. The tank gear is more than good enough to tank and the DPS gear is more than good enough to DPS.
Originally Posted by Evanirsb
-No DPS spec for guardians. The implementation of the Overpower makes sure guardians can't dps not to mention the dps is very low compared to other classes even when you have power. Some guy posted a screenshot with his guardian doing a 2.6k devastate on a target dummy. Other lv75 classes do 6k devastate!
Target dummies don't tell the tale for Guardian DPS. They never have because they don't take Protection by the Sword into account.
When I am DPSing opposite a tank who parries a lot I get literally non-stop parry responses from PbtS. I live in chain-land. When my power is doing ok I don't even bother going down the chain. I just keep hitting Stagger/Retaliation/Improved Overwhelm and Brutal Assault over and over again with the auto-attacks leaking in as they occur. When power becomes an issue then I go down the chain to To the King, assuming a Burglar isn't already on that. I already described AE, which is even sicker.
Most guardians really seem to overlook the value of generating their own reactives.
The trait braveheart from the yellow line makes WF generate a reactive as well as reducing its cd by 90s.
If you'd prefer a different yellow trait... slot the blue line trait for thrill of danger giving reactives.
I LOVE my guard. I ran solo for most of my levels in sword and board and enjoyed almost all of it. Yes there were a few times where the going was slow but they were very few. I even go into Limlight Gorge and solo the daily quests there. It takes time to kill 70+K elite masters whilst wearing my shield but I happen to enjoy that. Of course I might be crazy but at least I am happy in my craziness
This.
Me too, I lvled up my Guardian 90% of my time with sword and board. For one reason : I just love the look of it ! ^^
To go quicker I would take 4 ou 5 mobs instead of one by one. I had a very fun lvl up with this toon
Also, I stopped playing my burg cause turbine made it a very oriented DPS toon. I never chose to play a burg to be a DPS char... Those changes killed my game, so I rolled a guard... And I just loved it.
Also, I would never see a champ doing what I do. When there is no tank for an Othranc night friends call me, not a champ, not even a uber geared champ. If they want a champ it's for DPS not tanking.
And then, if i'm not killing stuff with 3hits, my board can get to 4K5 hit... Yeah yeah I'm a crazy girl, I'm running with legacies that upgrades shield dmg But I soooo love this shield, I though it would be good to kill things with it. And it works pretty well.
I love my guard, and I am happy in my craziness too !
This.
Me too, I lvled up my Guardian 90% of my time with sword and board. For one reason : I just love the look of it ! ^^
To go quicker I would take 4 ou 5 mobs instead of one by one. I had a very fun lvl up with this toon
Yea, sometimes being a Guard offers opportunities that just about no other class can pull off. When I'm doing the 'Sunset Raid' daily (the one where you have to clear the entire Easterling camp, complete with three or four named signature captains) I usually just don the shield and Charge into every single mob up to the first boss. After that, it's just a matter of [Vexing Blow]->[Sweeping Cut]->[Whirling Retaliation]->[Repeat] until all of 'em (15-20) are dead.
Yeah, single-target DPS isn't great, but when you're hitting 8 at a time, it adds up.
What do you mean Guards haven't changed? Graal has generously taken away a useful stance for us when grouping.
Pre-Isen Overpower was amazing:
2nd highest sustained AoE damage
~4th highest ST damage
Not that far behind DPS class damage (~80%)
Very high survivability since we could almost max DPS while still capping vit and keeping inc healing up, etc.
Post-Isen Overpower is oh so much worse:
3rd highest sustained AoE damage (hello Hunters)
Maybe ~5th highest ST damage, if we're lucky
Way below DPS class damage (~65%)
Much much worse survivability thanks to stat/gear changes
Slightly worse power regen
We can't really hold aggro while tanking stuff in Overpower anymore (not from really good DPS, not on single target anyway, and certainly not while maintaining respectable survivability), and Overpower doesn't do enough damage to truly warrant its use as a DPS role (even with Prot by the Sword on a real tank for Parrys).
I have no issue that we can't top tier DPS, but I sure liked the old Overpower a zillion times better than how it is now.
Wardens just got an amazing update. Huge self heals; High crit def and immunity to repeated crits; Partial avoidance through the roof, Stun immunity, near infinite threat through one gambit (ok its a bug but still, its not getting fixed any time soon...). I would wager that in most cases (lightning and shadow bosses excepted) they are better tanks now.
What do you mean Guards haven't changed? Graal has generously taken away a useful stance for us when grouping.
Pre-Isen Overpower was amazing:
2nd highest sustained AoE damage
~4th highest ST damage
Not that far behind DPS class damage (~80%)
Very high survivability since we could almost max DPS while still capping vit and keeping inc healing up, etc.
Post-Isen Overpower is oh so much worse:
3rd highest sustained AoE damage (hello Hunters)
Maybe ~5th highest ST damage, if we're lucky
Way below DPS class damage (~65%)
Much much worse survivability thanks to stat/gear changes
Slightly worse power regen
.
You have to be kidding me if you think a guardian was (before RoI) and is (post RoI) anywhere close to a LM AoE. Seriously, thats one of the most absurds things I've ever read in this forum.
You have to be kidding me if you think a guardian was (before RoI) and is (post RoI) anywhere close to a LM AoE. Seriously, thats one of the most absurds things I've ever read in this forum.
P.S: So, Hunters AoE, better than LM too, really?
Not sure as I don't play a lore-master myself, but aren't their 2 big hitters on a pretty long cooldown? I know their AOE damage can be massive, but I thought it was more of a burst kind of thing.
You have to be kidding me if you think a guardian was (before RoI) and is (post RoI) anywhere close to a LM AoE. Seriously, thats one of the most absurds things I've ever read in this forum.
P.S: So, Hunters AoE, better than LM too, really?
Yes and yes.
LMs have more burst AoE dps than anyone but in a fight of any reasonable duration where LMs can't pad their damage via their long cooldown skills, Champions, Hunters, and yes even Guardians, will do more damage.
Tbh I can't be certain that's still the case post-isen but Guardians were way ahead pre-isen so I can't imagine they've fallen that far.
Hunters have insane AoE as long as they slot the 3 required traits for it.
I believe the arguement you've made thus far is that guardians are inferior because champs can tank sufficiently enough and do more DPS. This has been brought up numerous times.
I'm saying the champs that put the same amount of effort into a tank spec as a guard would will tank better than a guard. And the times it was brought up before guards were actually doing damage that was the same as champs or in some cases better and champs were still kings of threat because of RB and ire skills.
Originally Posted by jhwort
I remember having this same discussion when BG was the end game raid.
I also remember those, and IIRC Roov was one of your kins main tanks at the time.
Originally Posted by jhwort
My point is, any class can tank as long as the healers can keep them alive. It's just typically easier for most healers to keep up a guardian.
More DPS means less heals needed, less heals needed means more DPS spots in a raid, and so on. Even if we are only talking about 3-4 hundred DPS from the tank alone, that adds up enough to drop the healing needed by a large amount and if it's a fight with a large amount of AoE a few hundred DPS can certainly turn a fight from "hard" to faceroll.
Originally Posted by jhwort
How many major raiding kins are using champs to tank when they don't have to? I haven't heard of many, have you? But again, it doesn't matter what class is tanking if they can be kept alive by the healers.
Not enough, and for no good reason are they not.
This games raiding community is by far the most casual, least competitive of any raid producing game I've played. Even rift has more competitive raiders.
Originally Posted by Evendale
[*]~4th highest ST damage
I wouldn't say 4th, I had my champ geared up the same as my guard and the only time I ever did consistently higher DPS was running in CBR. We definitely did more DPS than hunters and fire spec RKs were fight dependent but we were able to do more than them too. Burgs were after their update roughly equal to guards damage wise, of course a burg brought the group damage up far more than a guard could.
I'd say second tied with burg.
Originally Posted by Evendale
[*]Not that far behind DPS class damage (~80%)
Again I don't agree with this, it wasn't that big of a gap unless parsing on low morale targets where crit multipliers really shine. Or comparing raid groups to raid groups where you have no ability to judge what was used when, maybe your minstrel for that fight had panicked for some reason and was overly focused on healing instead of buffs or something.
Originally Posted by Evendale
[*]Very high survivability since we could almost max DPS while still capping vit and keeping inc healing up, etc.
Meh, it was better but it wasn't "very" high compared to some other classes at the time.
Hunters are not higher sustained AoE than us (anymore they were in beta) they have a whole lot of AoE damage but it won't start to get consistently higher until you get to a 9-10 target fight.
Originally Posted by Evendale
[*]Maybe ~5th highest ST damage, if we're lucky
Champs are definitely higher, hunters... kinda, depends on the fight. Burgs are the closest to guards still but for the same reasons as before they bring higher group damage.
Originally Posted by Evendale
[*]Way below DPS class damage (~65%)
That's a bit of an exaggeration, when comparing straight parses from either raids or (more likely dummies despite their fail behavior) after you get past 1m parses that show nothing more than burst it's not that far off. I'm fine with not being a high burst class guard damage has always had to have been sustained for it to compare anyways, and if that means I'm not the best choice for a boss per raid set it's fine, other classes are far worse off in that regard.
Originally Posted by Evendale
[*]Slightly worse power regen
ICPR went up, so did buffs. Food is higher, pots are higher. Power costs went up but not quite as much as the ability to regain power went up.
Originally Posted by Evendale
We can't really hold aggro while tanking stuff in Overpower anymore (not from really good DPS, not on single target anyway, and certainly not while maintaining respectable survivability), and Overpower doesn't do enough damage to truly warrant its use as a DPS role (even with Prot by the Sword on a real tank for Parrys).
Why would you want to now? Have a champ tank if you can tank it in OP. Doesn't make sense that if you need a tank using a glory champ and having a guard toss PbtS on him will pull far more DPS than if you had the champ DPSing and used a guard running SnB. And it would still be clearly better if that guard was a champ... fun class design.
Originally Posted by Juanra
You have to be kidding me if you think a guardian was (before RoI) and is (post RoI) anywhere close to a LM AoE. Seriously, thats one of the most absurds things I've ever read in this forum.
P.S: So, Hunters AoE, better than LM too, really?
How many times will this have to be gone over?
LMs have burst AoE with medium CDs other than that their AoE isn't that impressive, maybe next update a LM will be able to reset ents with ISG. Until then yes, a guard or a hunter will out DPS them in sustained AoE.
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