Thread: of the sorry state of Guardians

I'm playing Lotro from early 2008 taking longer or shorter breaks and playing other mmos.

Every time I come back I hope to see some changes in the Guardian class and hope that developers finally played some other mmo that's on the market and compared the gameplay of Guardians with some other tanks from other games. Does the guard even have a developer or maybe a developer that maintain this class part time?

This class plays exactly the same way it did before the Mines of Moria. Slow animations, low damage, missing skills at low level obsolete skills at high level. No dps build.

-Guardians are too dependent on having block even or parry event. This is very bad at the start of the fight because you don't have aoe threat skills ready. This events should be removed.

-Threat only skills like Litany of Defiance, Shield-taunt. Minstrel cry skills do damage, somehow the guardian cry doesn't do any damage.

-Shield damage scales very bad and depends a lot on the guard belt.

-Power recovery is bad. In overpower stance it's horrible. This completely kills the dps spec for guardians.

-Tank gear without any damage. Lots of hp, avoidance and power. Zero strength.

-No DPS spec for guardians. The implementation of the Overpower makes sure guardians can't dps not to mention the dps is very low compared to other classes even when you have power. Some guy posted a screenshot with his guardian doing a 2.6k devastate on a target dummy. Other lv75 classes do 6k devastate!

-This last expansion had nothing for guardians. There were only Improved[old_skill] stuff that did the same as the lv10-20 skill. In fact the only changes for guardians were something like: oh, guardian, we improved the tanking of other calsses. This is from a developer interview about the Rohan expansion...

You complaint seems to be that the guardian is a tank class, and you want to play a DPS class... Have you considered a hunter or champion?

hmmm my guard dps is very good no power issues eather. get the op gear and the -%power usage leg.. and no more power issiues also i can open FMs like crazy.

They also included a skill called "ignore the pain" which grats a block response. No more block problem at the start of a fight.

I've played the Guardian for some time now and love the class. When I compare them to the other classes I play, they stand out for their "In your face, here's my shield upside yer head" style of combat

If you want DPS, go Keen Blade traited and OP stance and you'll do some impressive damage quite quickly! Guardians are meant to take a beating while they yell and scream and bash their shields and try to protect the healers in the group. If you want a true DPS go with the hunter and stand in the back and wreak havoc *lol* The one thing I see as a common mistake in Guardians, is losing power too quickly. If you trait properly and use your skills effectively, you can survive the longest battles and still have power to keep going! Add in some well deserved ale at then end of a long day of Tanking and you've had the perfect day in Middle earth in my oppinion

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

hmmm my guard dps is very good no power issues eather. get the op gear and the -%power usage leg.. and no more power issiues also i can open FMs like crazy.

Very good? Meaning what? 1k on dummy in Lagtrev? That is supposed to be good?
If you don't have power issues, you probably run set bonus from orthanc raid armor or hold back from using all your skills to do maximum damage. Overpower is pathetic in its current state but I hope one day it will shine (hope that happens b4 we ever reach Mordor).
And please, stop with this "guards are tank only" nonsense. If this was the case, there would be no Overpower stance in the first place. I want flexibility with my character. At least "some" flexibility. If I am not in the mood for tanking tonight, I want to grab my big stick and bash heads. After ROI, champs can reliably tank 3 and 6 mans. Guards cannot reliably DPS in those groups no matter what you claim. War speech minstrels get the same tratment, noboby considers them good DPS even when they DO have great damage.

As for tanking side, there is no doubt that guards can tank anything in this game and are the best tank. But tanking in LotRO is somewhat odd. 90% of the time you yell at mobs instead of bashing them with your shield/attacking. I'd rather punch or kick someone to get their attention than scream all the time. No wonder many guard skills relate to breath catching.

Guard gameplay does seem to be somewhat dull, but I guess that comes in the package with the spec.

I like the fact that guardians don't have a rotation/cycle set in stone. You have to use the best skill depending on the situation.
I played a (paladin) tank in WoW and that wasn't the case: my rotation was the most important, the only room for improvisation was on cooldown/trinkets and one skill at the end of the chain (aggro or healing). Note that I'm talking of cataclysm era as it is the one I remember the best.

On the other hand I'd like guardian to do more DPS both in tanking and DPS spec.
While tanking it would be nice if we had about half the DPS of a pure DPS, and if our threat skills produced a tad less threat to compensate. It would feel much more rewarding than it is now just yelling at mobs or knocking my shield to grab aggro.
Overpower DPS is sorely lacking. It's OK solo since we combine high survivability (mostly from high HP and high mitigations since our self healing and BPE suck in Overpower) with some OK burst AoE DPS. We burn through power way too fast tho, and I basically have to recover power after every other fight. In group situation we combine low DPS with non sustainable putting us at the bottom of the DPS chain.

However even if we are awesome tanks, and if the tanking gameplay is already not too bad, I'd love an evolution to a more aggressive gameplay, mainly with shorter animations and a bit more emphasis on threat generated through damage.

Originally Posted by crooner

However even if we are awesome tanks, and if the tanking gameplay is already not too bad, I'd love an evolution to a more aggressive gameplay, mainly with shorter animations and a bit more emphasis on threat generated through damage.

This, very much this. Thank you Sir

You are bashing the very code of what the guardian is about:reactive gameplay. Short OODA loop.

I think you might want to check out other classes.

Amazing! 4 replies right after the first post and nobody has a problem with the current state of the guardian. Not even one. It's like fighting with windmills

Please don't read between lines, I don't want to use the guardian for dps. I want to use the tank spec and I want to use in in solo play and I want it to be efficient. Mobs don't die for threat or damage mitigation.

-I don't want to see guardian abilities that don't do damage!

-I don't want to see guardian abilities that can be used after block or parry. This type of reactive abilities were removed from other games years ago. Do you realize Ignore the Pain has a 5 min cooldown and it's generally used for disarms?

Now to the DPS part of the guardian...

If you think guardians can dps, you have no clue what dps means. Dps classes can kill a mob of their level in 3 seconds! Even a minstrel with dps spec can do that.

You think you have no power problems? Try to go full dps for 5 min if you can. I have a champion and I can do that and when the fight is over I'm still at 90% power.

Champion has power regeneration and extra melee damage. Guardian dps has a huge power cost and no power regeneration.

On the other hand Champions can tank but Guardians can't dps.

I hear this a lot.
And true it'd be nice to see some new stuff for the guard (who doesn't like new things?) its not necessary. Guards are mainly a tank class and as a tank class they don't need very much improvement. I doubt the guard will be looked at for more than an 'Improved [old attack]' until Turbine finds a way to mess up the guards tanking ability (and I don't doubt Turbine will find that way).


Based on previous replies, your power management sucks. Its not the class. Talk to other OP guards and figure out what you're doing wrong. I don't OP very often so I can't tell you. And if you still don't like the damage output then consider changing classes. Just because you've been playing since 2008 doesn't mean you still can't learn a new thing or two about playing the class.

I like this thread, every person complaining in it apparently wishes they rolled a champion.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

Amazing! 4 replies right after the first post and nobody has a problem with the current state of the guardian. Not even one. It's like fighting with windmills

OK, I'm going to give you a little hint in communications. You started with a combative tone, even with the title of your thread, be prepared for combative replies.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

Please don't read between lines, I don't want to use the guardian for dps. I want to use the tank spec and I want to use in in solo play and I want it to be efficient. Mobs don't die for threat or damage mitigation.

The majority of the issues you bring up are related to DPS, you want to do more damage when tanking you want more damage in OP. There is no reading between the lines, you are explicit in your intentions. If you want to use tank spec to solo, well tanking in this game is about mitigations and threat. Actually tanking, by definition, is about threat in every game.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

-I don't want to see guardian abilities that don't do damage!

-I don't want to see guardian abilities that can be used after block or parry. This type of reactive abilities were removed from other games years ago. Do you realize Ignore the Pain has a 5 min cooldown and it's generally used for disarms?

Now to your only specific statements about what you do want (even though they are in the negative and are about what you don't want, I'll try and make them a positive).

You want to make the guardian from a reactive based mitigation tank into a proactive, damage based tank. We already have one of those and they are called champs. As you stated you have a champ so you should be aware of this.

Ignore the pain is not very useful for getting a reliable block even I agree, try hitting pledge. Any reasonably geared guard at 75 should have pledge on a 3 minute CD so that is much more worthwhile. Pledge + Challenge are a great way to start off building threat for a multi mob pull.

Now, if you had stated that you would like a change to skills and animations such that tanking feels more fluid and dynamic while maintaining the reactive nature of the guardian (and therefore not completely changing the character of the class) then I would whole heatedly agree with you.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

Now to the DPS part of the guardian...

If you think guardians can dps, you have no clue what dps means. Dps classes can kill a mob of their level in 3 seconds! Even a minstrel with dps spec can do that.

You think you have no power problems? Try to go full dps for 5 min if you can. I have a champion and I can do that and when the fight is over I'm still at 90% power.

Champion has power regeneration and extra melee damage. Guardian dps has a huge power cost and no power regeneration.

On the other hand Champions can tank but Guardians can't dps.

I do agree with you somewhat here, Guard DPS even in OP is on the low end of the spectrum. Especially seeing that to properly use OP you need to have 5-7 different armour pieces than you use tanking, a complete set of jewellry, and 2 LI's. Even with this set up you will be putting out low 1k DPS while true DPS classes (and burgs, but that is another discussion) are hitting around 2k DPS.

tl;dr

1) A combative tone begets a combative tone, try a different communication style if you want to get something other than "You're wrong".

2) You're stated desire is to change the flavor of the Guardian to being more a clone of the new champion style (that was created to eliminate it as being a clone of the guardian style), the replies so far have disagreed with you on this.

3) Guard DPS is in OP is not where it should be given the investment required to maximize it's potential. I think most everyone can agree with you on this.

As a side note, there is an ongoing thread for posting constructive changes for every class.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...e-and-Feedback

Originally Posted by Neverwhere616

I like this thread, every person complaining in it apparently wishes they rolled a champion.

Usually when this happens it means the class is broken and needs some serious fixing.

Most of the players that say the guardian is ok, don't know any better. Probably they are happy they can do something with their guard.

Make a champion and tank with it. Try to dps with a guard if you can. Then come back here and say the guardian ok.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

Usually when this happens it means the class is broken and needs some serious fixing.

Most of the players that say the guardian is ok, don't know any better. Probably they are happy they can do something with their guard.

Make a champion and tank with it. Try to dps with a guard if you can. Then come back here and say the guardian ok.

Done. The guardian is OK. Could be made more fluid but is generally OK.

Originally Posted by Azerog

Done. The guardian is OK. Could be made more fluid but is generally OK.

This.

I have a complete DPS set (jewelry + ToO OP set). I push out a little over 1k dps for extended fights. For spike damage at the start I can it almost 1.8k for about 10-20 secs. I have no power problems. Power pots, TTH, and ToD go a long ways for power maintenance.

And before you say I don't play other classes and don't know what I'm missing on the dps side. I have a 75 burg as well and yes he has bigger numbers but I much prefer my grd's survivability that he maintains even in DPS mode. In the past I've gone dps when we had a warden MT (and then picked up agro when the squishy warden died but u6 has changed that I think). My burg would never be able to perform such a role.

I also play lvl 75 LM, Min, and Cappy. I have to say my favorite is by far my Guard.

PS After u6 moors is AWESOME. (Audacity is sweet. More mitigations? Yes please!)

It's kind of weird to ask for a class that can DPS and tank and not be reactive in the guardian forums. That's a champion.

If you want a reactive class, guards, captains and burgs have reactive based skillsets.

If you want a DPS class that can tank without reactive skills, but is very proactive, that's a warden.

Please do not pervert guardians into champions.

Please do not change guardians into other games' tank classes--if you want to play those games, play those games.

I chose to play a guardian because I wanted a reactive class with ultimate survivability and some optional DPS.

I'm glad the guardian hasn't gotten screwed over like minstrels did (some people love the changes, some people stopped playing them at all, some people suffer them now).

It used to be there were two main options for healing classes, the reactive minstrel class and proactive RK class. Now minstrels are not as reactive as they used to be, if you prefer reactive classes, there is no healing class like that anymore (captains come closest).

Wouldn't it suck if there was no reactive tanking class in Lotro anymore? Just three versions of the same thing?

For the OP, perhaps roll a tanking champion and see if you like it? Of the tanks in our kin, champs are some of our best.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Azerog

I do agree with you somewhat here, Guard DPS even in OP is on the low end of the spectrum. Especially seeing that to properly use OP you need to have 5-7 different armour pieces than you use tanking, a complete set of jewellry, and 2 LI's. Even with this set up you will be putting out low 1k DPS while true DPS classes (and burgs, but that is another discussion) are hitting around 2k DPS.

This is the real issue here. I read somewhere in this part of the forums that a guard has to push might higher than a champion, because we are naturally (i.e. via skills) more survivable and less damaging. I have ten objects to switch from my raid tanking build to my DPS build which isn't even particularly good.

A burg only has to have agility and vitality, as a hunter. Even a minstrel can focus on will for both his DPS and his healing set. A simple trait giving +1000 might at the expense of -1000 vitality would not even help, since our tanking gear as lots of raw incoming healing, B/P/E and mitigations, which are not very useful when DPSing.

Champions have the same problem to some extent, but at least their skills are modified according to the stance they are in (as are the warden skills). This gives more potency to the different roles they have to perform, as they have more tools at their disposal. A good solution for example would be to turn the litany into a light based DoT skill when in overpower, to add bleeds instead of threat to vexing blow, or to change fray into a debuffing skill (cumulative +1% miss chance perhaps ?). This would improve the overpower stance, giving more flexibility to it.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

Usually when this happens it means the class is broken and needs some serious fixing.

Most of the players that say the guardian is ok, don't know any better. Probably they are happy they can do something with their guard.

Make a champion and tank with it. Try to dps with a guard if you can. Then come back here and say the guardian ok.

We DPS about as well as a champion can tank so I think it's all good. How could I not "know any better" after more than five years of being a guardian?

I guess if you think Guards should have two viable roles you might think they are in a sorry state. I rolled a guard to be a tank and I'm pretty happy with things.

I'm happy that Wardens have better dps stances in U6 because that means I probably won't be asked to go OP in 6-mans so the warden can tank. He can DPS and I can tank as god intended. (Yes, they thought I'd do more DPS than a Warden pre-U6. I'm not sure they looked at my ###### OP weapon or considered that I haven't even bothered to earn the Raw Power or Blocking Force traits)

There is one pretty big failure, which is that Turbine has never really said where they expect us to fall on the DPS meter. Right now I'd rather have an extremely clear statement of where they want our class than anything else. Turbine seems almost pathologically incapable of clear communication though.

i am happy with guardian at the moment other than i wish they gave us back our old increased melee skills range legacy. that was the signature of a guardian in PvP (our long range melee) and they pretty much took that away from us by reducing the range so much on the skill. Only +1.7m when maxed on a first age and i think it used to go to +2.7m? never got an explanation from the dev as to why they nerfed it so much.

Originally Posted by Souku

i am happy with guardian at the moment other than i wish they gave us back our old increased melee skills range legacy. that was the signature of a guardian in PvP (our long range melee) and they pretty much took that away from us by reducing the range so much on the skill. Only +1.7m when maxed on a first age and i think it used to go to +2.7m? never got an explanation from the dev as to why they nerfed it so much.

If you are talking about since RoI, they did tell us it was a bug. A number of legacies were starting at too high a value (for melee range that was 1m further than intended). All of those legacies got put back to where they were. It's too much for me to go look for the post but we were told about it before they changed it and why. Same thing happened with mirkwood if you remember.

The tanking part of the guard is fine though, like the OP, I'm puzzled as to why it's more about shouting and banging on shields than fighting lol. My guard is a hobbit and I always imagine i'm banging on pots and pans

I'm also with the OP wanting more flexibility on our DPS side. Champs are better tanks than we are dps. Pretty much pigeon holes us into one type of role all the time.

Just because Orion has created yet another OP Class (champion) does not mean that all classes should be boosted to demi-god status, quite the oposite. Now that wardens seem to be sturdier than they were Pre-U6 there is really no need for champs to be kings of dps AND tanking- none atall.

Going back to my "Ignnore the pain" comment. Works a charm in boss fight where all you take is non-melee source tactical attacks, where pledge would be useless. It atleast allows you to access your block response skills at the start of the fight.

Originally Posted by DaMac

Just because Orion has created yet another OP Class (champion) does not mean that all classes should be boosted to demi-god status, quite the oposite.

I am really not that optimistic to think that Orion just did a bunch of drunk coding weekends.

I think there was a very deliberate plan here to do two things:

• To make Hunters and Wardens less attractive, apparently there were too many. With Hunters in particular that is a problem for grouping. The game gets it level cap raised more and more and that means each player has less characters at top level. So Turbine took matters into their own hands to ensure that there is a low enough number of Hunters
• The other classes that were touched were all given broader roles. This, too, is from my observation a move to prepare for higher level caps at which each player has less characters. To ease grouping the roles were broadened.

I have little doubt that the next step in this little game is that Guardian's DPS features will receive a large boost. Two-hand LIs? Soon. Scholar item for a overpower mode only boost? Oops already there.

I think I understand where the OP is coming from.

Tanking classes in other games seem to be much closer to the DPS classes than here in lotro. I have flirted with Warhammer when it came out and if you look at classes like the Black Orc, Chosen and Ironbreaker they just felt so much more powerful than the Guardian in Lotro. The Barbarian in Diablo 3 is maybe not the best example but again it just feels so much better in terms of dealing damage.

Now, I have both a champ and Guardian max level (as well as a hnt, RK and burg) so it's not a matter of having rolled the "wrong" class. The survivability of a Guardian is great, aggro is ok unless DPS classes go crazy but in terms of DPS the class should be beefed up quite a bit and if that will be at the cost of survivability... no problem. There is a reason why so few people play a guardian. The class needs something to make it more fun so there will be more to go around for instances but it will be challenging to find the right way without imbalancing the class.

personally i rolled a guard to tank not dps if i lose survivability for more dps then i would have made a tanking champ. also on the point that someone made about our cries not doing dmg i personally enjoy that it doesnt because it doesnt break CC if our aoe taunts hits it but it still builds threat on it so it doesnt go off and hit the healer if the mez breaks

Originally Posted by Maelendil

A burg only has to have agility and vitality, as a hunter. Even a minstrel can focus on will for both his DPS and his healing set. A simple trait giving +1000 might at the expense of -1000 vitality would not even help, since our tanking gear as lots of raw incoming healing, B/P/E and mitigations, which are not very useful when DPSing.

Just a quick note with values: there is a difference of 498 in vitality and might between our isengard DPS set and our isengard tanking set, while the largest difference on base characteristics for minstrels is +7 fate. This speaks volume about the difference between a guard switching from tanking to DPS and a minstrel switching from healing to DPS. We can change roles, but we have to work twice as hard to get a decent gear for both.

Just a comment about the whole shield banging and yelling w/no damage point....

I'm, frankly, really happy that most of our agro skills do NOT cause damage. Since in large melees stuff gets CCed if my AOE taunts did damage as well, that would be a total ##### to try and get agro on the rest of the mobs. Most of our taunts are designed to just get the attention of various numbers of mobs and leave the cc'ed ones alone. Makes me happy that's how it works. There was a bug for a while where our taunts did break CC...oy vey...made things difficult in many places.

[QUOTE=Evanirsb;6051241 Does the guard even have a developer or maybe a developer that maintain this class part time?[/quote]

Graalx is our developer. He hasn't been nearly as active as other class devs, but given the truly sorry state of Wardens since ROI, I don't mind it so much. Here's to hoping that he has some goodies in store for us soon.

This class plays exactly the same way it did before the Mines of Moria. Slow animations, low damage, missing skills at low level obsolete skills at high level. No dps build.

Not sure what you're trying to say here because it's not making much sense to be honest. Tanks do low damage by design(tank/healer/dps trinity remember). Every class has "missing skills" at low level, this is a standard feature in MMOs. As you level up you unlock more skills. They're not "missing." The only skill that I can think of that could be obsolete at high level is Warrior's Heart, since it's healing didn't scale up at all and is now weaker than a morale potion.

-Guardians are too dependent on having block even or parry event. This is very bad at the start of the fight because you don't have aoe threat skills ready. This events should be removed.

Trait Harasser, walk up to mobs, hit Vexing Blow, and enjoy the immediate block and parry responses. If you're with a Champ that leads off with raging blades, then start off with challenge first. There is no problem with our reactives, you just need to know how to best get them activating. With high block/parry ratings, and a good idea on how to grab/hold initial aggro, you'll have block/parry responses up the entire fight with no trouble.

-Threat only skills like Litany of Defiance, Shield-taunt. Minstrel cry skills do damage, somehow the guardian cry doesn't do any damage.

Then someone would complain that we have no way to build aggro on mezzed guys without waking them up. We don't need more DPS in tank stance...again the whole tank/dps/healer trinity.

-Shield damage scales very bad and depends a lot on the guard belt.

Yep, keep your LIs up to date. Every class needs to do this.

-Power recovery is bad. In overpower stance it's horrible. This completely kills the dps spec for guardians.

Power is fine for tanking...trait Controlled Breathing, -CaB cooldown legacy, and you've got something like 1500-2000 extra ICPR. For OP, get the power cost down legacy, add in the 10% reduction from the armor set, and toss on some ICPR relics if you need to. It's all about using your traits and gear options to support your play style. We have the tools out there.

-Tank gear without any damage. Lots of hp, avoidance and power. Zero strength.

The tanking armor gives you a good chunk of might, and you can find good tanking jewelry with might on it as well. With ROI, you need to mix and match your jewelry and armor to get the build you want. One piece might give you nothing but Vitality/avoidance, so you supplement that with another piece that is pure might or whatever else you want. If you want to DPS with you Guardian, you need to pick up the DPS gear not the tanking gear. The DPS gear has 120+ might on each piece. I'm thinking here that you just havent' seen everything that is available to Guardians yet.

-No DPS spec for guardians.

If Overpower is not good enough for you, you might want to play an actual DPS class. We have a role to play in the game which is tanking. There isn't a healing spec, a buffing spec, or a crowd control spec for Guardians either.

I'm very happy with my guards... the fact that is no changed for so long is a prove that the class is ok.

When i rolled a guard is because i want to tank, not dps... so i'm fine with the dps of my guards.

From you're post i could think that you don't really understand how to play your guards... if you want some tips we're here to help, but i guardians as a class is generally ok, they only need some lifting to some skill...

I actually enjoy the reactive gameplay of tanking, though I think there should be more skills to open a block event. Remove that stupid trait for FtE and add a new one to make Force Opening be usable out of overpower and open a block event. Problem solved.

I dislike OP because it doesn't feel like a guardian to me, I'd pretty much have prefer a shield-oriented DPS role. The current state of the OP is that we're gimped champions. You can fool yourself saying that you survivability is a little better, but on the end of the day, their DPS is way over yours and they don't have any power problems.

But we are in a fine place, I still don't undestand how you guys haven't got that yet.

Guardians are fine. If you want to do melee DPS start a champion character.

I have both a level 75 guardian and a level 75 champion. The guardian's OP stance and redline traits are sufficient for solo leveling. I even tank the Draigoch raid in redline traits. A guardian is boring to DPS with solo and in fellowships. Champion provides a much more enjoyable melee DPS experience. I've even tried tanking with my Champion and I much prefer tanking with the Guardian.

Yes a Champion can tank many things traited, geared, and setup for it, but champ tanking is plain boring.
Same with Guardian melee DPS... just plain boring.

Champion DPS is fun and responsive.
Guardian tanking is fun and responsive.

Guardian's are fine they don't need to be changed into a champion. If you want to melee DPS then start a champion character.

Rifle is fine.

(Link NSFW-Language)

Like I said, we DPS about as well as Champs tank. If you don't beleive me then try ToO with zero guardians and get back to us. In most group content other than raids and the toughest challenges, however, you can take multiples of either class and still be fine.

Are there some changes I would love for my guardian? You bet. I do not believe that we are in a "sorry state" though. If you really think it's that bad they try a champion out. I have one and they are a lot of fun. Guards will never equal their DPS just like champions will never replace us as main tanks. If that becomes the case then we will have the MoM situation all over and nerfs/adjustments will be forthcoming. The same would happen if they bumped our DPS up too much. Again, guards will never have top-tier DPS as long as we have such high defenses and survival skills.

If Guardians are in a sorry state, what were the Wardens in between ROI and U6? Guardians are better at raid tanking and DPSing than Wardens, so if you're going to compare your guardian to any class, compare it to a Pre-U6 Warden. You'll feel much better.

And if you're seriously complaining about the DPS of a guardian, roll a dps class. You have better DPS than a Warden or cappy. You're not meant to be dps, you're meant to tank.

~Rae

I am of course coming back around to LOTRO after another long absence, and what some may perceive as a "sorry state" I really just see as a need for some "Quality of Life" adjustments. DPS in OP as compared to survivability is really not that far off, we are still quite "tanky" in OP, what we are not is sustainable... So, points to the OP for pointing out some power issues. In strict raiding circumstances where you need people to stay closer to their primary class role than usual, this is a non-issue. Some flexibility would be nice for 3-6 man content or an oddball DPS/Offtank.

Skill Fluidity is another Quality of Life issue. There's some oddball hangups with skill timing and whatnot. Some of this contributes to the power issues (skills with little return have long animations and high'ish power costs).

Itemization is a separate issue, that affects some classes more than others, but the fact is that Guards miss and are resisted quite a lot and there is no viable mechanic in the primary stats or finesse rating to deal with that. So, while some classes are able to "Hyperfocus" on one or two main attributes, Guards have to still have to try to strike a balance of a few attributes to not have to deal with some pretty serious downsides.

Now, the OP made some comparisons to "Other Games." Right now the elephant in the room is SW:TOR, which even in its unpolished state has a couple mechanical advantages over LOTRO with regards to its tank classes. Of primary note, I really don't have to worry about "power consumption" in TOR while tanking on my Vanguard or Guardian. The mechanics are entirely different. On the SW:TOR Guardian (which doesn't play like the LOTRO guardian at all) You build and spend "focus" through a combination of skills. This is infinitely sustainable as there is no other power mechanic. Its somewhat throttling due to cooldown times, but the rhythm is quite nice.

The Vanguard uses yet a different mechanic with "Ammo" which just regenerates at a higher rate, the more ammo you have, so if you run out, it takes longer to regen. There's a couple of weak, zero cost skills that you can weave in there (kinda like the old "letting the Auto-Attack play"), so its very sustainable without too much effort.

Now, before people get all butthurt and tell me to go play TOR, you should know, that's exactly what I'm doing. I don't know how much longer, I'll be doing it, but that's what I have planned for a few more months. I'll always come back to LOTRO because it is a good game, I still have friends here and the devs, moderators and game admins have always been solid in my estimate.

If there is one thing that I could express, is that these simple quality of life issues can drastically change the perception of how the game or the class plays... and thus we get threads like this, which end up being divisive and counter-productive.

Originally Posted by Evanirsb

Usually when this happens it means the class is broken and needs some serious fixing.

Most of the players that say the guardian is ok, don't know any better. Probably they are happy they can do something with their guard.

Make a champion and tank with it. Try to dps with a guard if you can. Then come back here and say the guardian ok.

I would say the person that doesn't know any better would be you...

I do DPS with my guard and I have absolutely no problems. Would it be nice to do more damage and use less power? Yes it would be but you're asking for these changes based on your own very limited experience, and you're not even thinking of the problems that it might cause to the games already strange balance.

A guardian with 17k morale that hits 5k crits? I'm sorry but that would be pretty ridiculous. Also please give me the contact information of a champ that can tank 4 Saruman's at once, I would like to send them a hero cookie...

I'm happy with where Guards are, as well. Of course, I have one of every class, so if I want to go DPS I swap to a DPS class.

If you want block responses, use Challenge proactively. And trait it. It's on such a short cooldown, there's no reason to save it for emergencies. Walk into a group of mobs and Challenge. You have 13 seconds to build threat. If you don't get a block response in 13 seconds, reconsider your gear.