Turbine this is not just another complaint but this is seriously one of the worst things about this game! LUCK! Mezzing and getting resisted instant wipe in raids almost everytiime regardless of what happens. Getting one shotted ? Really no time to react you just die? umm base your game of skill in some term and maybe more people will come and play this game
so you want all your skills to work every single time? pretty boring, why don't we just make all skills hit for the same amount every time, no ranges, no crits, no devs thats way its the same every single boring time.
I guess your not getting the point! If you like to waste time because an uncontrollable mez miss be my guess but if you think hard about it you know its pointless to have that type of mechanic because if a mezzed miss really hard to recover if not dead for example mezz on trolls in lightning wargs in acid ?
- Slot book with -resist legacy
- Check I've got plenty of finesse
- Trait -resist trait on Blinding Flash
- go in raid
- Fire off Blinding Flash
- Hover over Call to the Valar
- Check if it missed (I've yet to see a resist since RoI)
- If it hit: go DPS some
- If it missed: Use Call to the Valar and immediately remezz with Blinding Flash
No one needs to die or wait... If you're quick with it a mob will move maybe a couple of meters before you get the second mezz off. And CtV is back up by the time we're at the next fight.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
I guess your not getting the point! If you like to waste time because an uncontrollable mez miss be my guess but if you think hard about it you know its pointless to have that type of mechanic because if a mezzed miss really hard to recover if not dead for example mezz on trolls in lightning wargs in acid ?
You are a burg. You have Ready and Able. Put it on your skillbar, read the tooltip, and use it.
p.s. LMs can do the same thing.
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
soooo the point of the thread is that it's pointless to bring sucky people to raids if the rest of the group can't pick up the slack of the bad people?
I guess your not getting the point! If you like to waste time because an uncontrollable mez miss be my guess but if you think hard about it you know its pointless to have that type of mechanic because if a mezzed miss really hard to recover if not dead for example mezz on trolls in lightning wargs in acid ?
Because there's absolutely no way you could use a minstrel fear, a hunter fear/root or a lm root/fear as a backup right? Tier 2 should be easily doable every time without any coordination whatsoever?
To help a mez work, slot more gear with Finesse. Trait the traits that reduce resistances to mezzes.
If a mez doesn't work, use your other skills to compensate, either use another mez skill, or stun it until your mez is off cooldown, or use a skill that refreshes your CDs so you can apply it again.
Or, simply communicate with your backup mezzer that yours didn't take.
I only have to say the name of our backup mezzer and he throws a mez on my target, nothing more said.
Another tip that may help, use the H key to create a tooltip for the MOB you are mezzing, then you can just click that tooltip to select that MOB again.
If you open a tooltip for other CCers MOBs, as well, you can be prepared to back them up.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Wow you guys sure are coming down hard on a guy, but ignoring some pretty basic mechanics. Finesse does nothing for MISSES, it affects your chances of being BPE'd and Resisted. If the OP said he was being BPE'd or resisted too much, then more finesse is the answer.
Now that we have clarified that, most mobs and bosses in raids are above your level. This, in and of itself, applies a miss chance penalty that cannot be overcome by dexterity. That is why extremely high dex classes (burgs and hunters) still miss.
There was some (somewhat) helpful advice about layering and backing up your CC to help mitigate these misses, but it is extremely annoying to miss on your most basic skills. I had to apply my revealing mark 3 times once because I MISSED the first two times. It's a mark, not even an attack. Oathies is a very important part of the DPS race portions of some of these fights and, once again, it can miss despite not being an attack. I sympathize with the OP and I would like to see some class skills exempted from the higher level miss chance mechanic.
Wow you guys sure are coming down hard on a guy, but ignoring some pretty basic mechanics. Finesse does nothing for MISSES, it affects your chances of being BPE'd and Resisted. If the OP said he was being BPE'd or resisted too much, then more finesse is the answer.
Which he (or she) did, twice, never mentioning missing.
Now that we have clarified that, most mobs and bosses in raids are above your level. This, in and of itself, applies a miss chance penalty that cannot be overcome by dexterity. That is why extremely high dex classes (burgs and hunters) still miss.
This is technically inaccurate. See Graalx2's post here. The miss chance for a couple levels higher is only 3%, easily overcome by agility.
Despite the OP never mentioning misses, it's highly unlikely to miss, given the OP is a burg, with high agility. My mezzes could be resisted if I didn't trait them back when I had minimal finesse, but they don't miss.
If you fight MOBs that are more than four levels higher (as I was tonight, fighting level 49 MOBs at level 42), you will miss more with low agility characters (in my case, mini), but not dramatically.
If you are missing that much on your captain, perhaps consider boosting your agility? My captain is level 43, and currently in Angmar dealing with MOBs in the mid-40s, and rarely misses.
Since I only offered suggestions previously, now I will comment, asking for the game to be changed because of choices or lack of information when there are ready solutions--particularly asking for game play to be limited/reduced, seems counter-productive to playing the game.
What's next? Shall all our shots not be random, but always do fixed damage? Rather than picking our own skills, shall the game use the most common rotation for us? Rather than waiting for the fights to finish, why not just eliminate them and have whichever side is going to do the higher total damage claimed winner without the fight? Why not then eliminate the process of running out to attack, when we know the outcome before we leave the quest giver?
I'm sorry, but I hope they do not remove the very things that allow the game to be fun. If there wasn't a chance of losing, there's be no point in playing.
PS: Yeesh, my level 43 cappy has nearly half the agility of your level 75 cappy! (Please don't ask for the game to be changed because of your personal choice.)
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
My burg with 2,1k Agility, 20% Finesse and the Trait (- 500 Resistance Raiting) still misses on some mobs with riddle - how did you explain that?
The 3% is tacked on to the base 10%. You can completely wipe the 3% with agility, but it will not affect the 10% as greatly (so I've heard. This is kinda rumor, but what I've always known to be true). Think diminishing returns
To the OP, if you're getting resisted or BPEd... I see nothing wrong with that. Stack finesse before you do that important mez, hover over your reset, call it out if resisted twice (in which case your luck sucks, and I'm sorry haha).
If you're missing... Well, that's just part of the game. Makes PvP more fun in any case (ooooh, take that you reaver, your dev strike missed!). Maybe they could introduce some mechanic that allows the miss chance to be reduced while in raids? I honestly don't care enough about that 10%
My burg with 2,1k Agility, 20% Finesse and the Trait (- 500 Resistance Raiting) still misses on some mobs with riddle - how did you explain that?
I can explain those for you, which would you prefer?
Agility diminishing returns (you are way over the virtual "cap")?
How Finesse works (it doesn't affect miss chance)?
The differences between resists and misses (resist rating doesn't impact missing)?
My response was in regards to the claim that you can't overcome higher level MOBs increased miss chance, when you can. However that doesn't mean stacking an absurd amount of agility will benefit you, that's math.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Although there is a luck factor, it is part of what keeps raids exciting and difficult. If you never had anything unexpected, once you learned the raid, every run would be smooth as silk and ultimately, boring. With unexpected misses, groups are pushed to work as a team and compensate for missed mezzes, failed corruption removal, and the like.
As has been pointed out, there are many classes that can be back up for when a mezz misses, and communication and adjustment of strategy on the fly is part of what makes a raid interesting and also what separates a great raid group from a good one. Sure it can be frustrating at times, but it keeps things interesting. Much as I used to get frustrated with how much my corruption removal failed in raids where it mattered, miss chances keep things fresh.
Turbine this is not just another complaint but this is seriously one of the worst things about this game! LUCK! Mezzing and getting resisted instant wipe in raids almost everytiime regardless of what happens.
Back in the old days. There was an instance called the Rift. I stood next to Mentor LM. With my Blinding Flash loaded and ready for the inevitable primary LM resist. We always brought two LMs. One for each fellowship.
I don't recall any wipes for a double resist. It was a lot more intense until we both ready to try again. A raid has a lot of "oh Hockey Puck" skills available when the original plan breaks down due to a resist or some other issue. The difference between a really good team of raiders and an average or poor group is how quickly and effectively the team can respond to an unexpected issue.
If you take all the random factors and the player mistakes out of a raid, there is no point in doing the raid. Open instance finder, have the server generate a team gear score - if your score is over the minimum value you get the loot. The higher your score the less time you have to sit watching the countdown clock.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Mar 17 2012 at 07:30 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
I tend to agree with the OP. When the initial pull doesn't work, the usually contingency plan is to wipe and try again. They'll still eventually slog it out, but the repair bill is just higher. I fail to see the joy in that.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
I tend to agree with the OP. When the initial pull doesn't work, the usually contingency plan is to wipe and try again. They'll still eventually slog it out, but the repair bill is just higher. I fail to see the joy in that.
If your tactic is just to wipe a raid because a single mez is missed ... you deserve at the very least a larger repair bill
If your tactic is just to wipe a raid because a single mez is missed ... you deserve at the very least a larger repair bill
I wouldn't say that that is our tactic, but the mobs' tactic. Of course we try to finish the pull, but it just gets a lot harder. But we can usually take out a couple of them before we go down.
But sometimes it's tough to come up with a strategy involving contingency plans for your PUG, since it takes so long to explain everything anyway.
That said, making mezzes missable seems like a way to make the game more challenging, albeit an annoying way.
Last edited by dietlbomb; Mar 18 2012 at 10:08 AM.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
Far from disliking misses, I love them because it gives your group a chance to react to something unexpected and pull through for a clutch win. CC itself is boring (click one skill every 30s.... zzzz), it's only when there's either an interesting cc mechanic (adaptation, scripted mez breaks, anger etc.) or when it doesn't work that cc actually brings something interesting to a fight. As has been pointed out, a raid group typically has a large number of ways to recover from a CC screwup. True, burglars have limited options (R&A), but can certainly pop a CJ stun until the lore-master's blinding flash comes off cooldown, or call out for a fear or root or mez from another class. cc resists and other mechanics promote teamwork, communication and the ability to respond to unexpected circumstances - exactly what you want in a raid.
Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.
PS: Yeesh, my level 43 cappy has nearly half the agility of your level 75 cappy! (Please don't ask for the game to be changed because of your personal choice.)
You almost made a persuasive, if overly aggressive, post until you went and made it personal. Problem is, you also made yourself look dumb by trying to compare the itemization pre-65 with that of post 75. Compound that with the fact that your inspection of my character is incomplete in that it never shows some buffs (IDoME) and can omit others if they have expired. Seems that winning an argument by attempting to poorly pick apart your opponent is your style. Lame. The thing is, this is a public forum. There is nothing to win, short of maybe changing another person's opinion.
Also, please reread my post. I posted examples of skills that really have no business missing (Oathies and Marks). I also only suggested that there may be a class of skills that aren't subject to the miss chance because it doesn't make sense. I will let the devs decide what makes sense to them. I have only posted what makes sense to me.
Far from disliking misses, I love them because it gives your group a chance to react to something unexpected and pull through for a clutch win. CC itself is boring (click one skill every 30s.... zzzz), it's only when there's either an interesting cc mechanic (adaptation, scripted mez breaks, anger etc.) or when it doesn't work that cc actually brings something interesting to a fight.
Random bad luck isn't the only way to introduce variation in encounter design. You've highlighted some ways in what I quoted, another way is to have the boss script change depending on the approach used against it; Ivar and to a lesser extent Saruman are pretty good examples of this.
Honestly, I'm surprised that there's so much resistance to the idea of making skills no-fail. Multiple other MMOs, including WoW, Star Wars, and Rift have accuracy stats that eliminate misses, yet the encounters in those games still remain interesting. Running new people through encounters, or running alts is enough variation to keep things interesting, IMO, and running the same content x hundred times just for rewards is going to get boring, misses or not.
Besides, random numbers aren't random, when a computer is involved. Our group spent 30 minutes wiping on the 3rd pull on lightning thanks to 4-9 misses between 3 people, when we're used to clearing the trash in 15 minutes. Does that happen often? No. Is that a fun experience to have to go through at all though? Nope.
Edit: As I type this, we're seeing some SAVAGE server side lag in F&F... the same lag that some of my kinnies have been complaining about all day. Anyone want to say that this "random element" is positive because it keeps things interesting?
Last edited by scrubmonkey; Mar 19 2012 at 09:32 PM.
Random bad luck isn't the only way to introduce variation in encounter design... another way is to have the boss script change depending on the approach used against it; Ivar and to a lesser extent Saruman are pretty good examples of this.
Besides, random numbers aren't random, when a computer is involved. Our group spent 30 minutes wiping on the 3rd pull on lightning thanks to 4-9 misses between 3 people, when we're used to clearing the trash in 15 minutes. Does that happen often? No. Is that a fun experience to have to go through at all though? Nope.
I agree with the OP that it's no fun to wipe and wait for someone to return with rezzes, but I usually use that time to take a bio or grab a snack. While it's no fun, it's probably not worth raging about 'though.
Regarding the quoted text, the flip side is devestates and criticals. Without a random element, our damage and heals would always push the same value (same for mobs). There are some games that only use set values; while the outcomes in those games are more predictable, I think they're less fun.
Also, it's important to remember the times luck was on our side. There are a few times when I survived with just handful of morale due to a lucky evade.
Regarding the quoted text, the flip side is devestates and criticals. Without a random element, our damage and heals would always push the same value (same for mobs). There are some games that only use set values; while the outcomes in those games are more predictable, I think they're less fun.
Ah, good point. The difference, I feel, is that a positive random outcome is viewed as fun, while a negative one is viewed as frustrating. We're talking about a game here though, it's SUPPOSED to be fun. Why WOULDN'T the devs want to minimize annoying things, as long as it doesn't negatively impact the game in the process? That's exactly why I brought up those other games, btw, as it's possible to have no-miss skills and still create a compelling game.
The devs have made a large push toward making skills less random with the introduction of finesse. I would only hope that they would take the next step and eliminate misses as well.
Multiple other... ...have accuracy stats that eliminate misses
We have that here too, agility (although we presume it never becomes 0%, but we don't know).
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
The difference, I feel, is that a positive random outcome is viewed as fun, while a negative one is viewed as frustrating. We're talking about a game here though, it's SUPPOSED to be fun.
And here is the perfect point to introduce the subject of Flow.
The key is random permits a challenge that doesn't exist otherwise. If there's no challenge, and there's a reward, that's simply not fun. If there's no challenge, the reward has to be minimal for it to be a pleasing activity. See mining ore. People do that, spending hours each day doing nothing but finding ore nodes and getting stuff from them. Very little challenge (follow arrow, dodge MOBs), very little reward, but it's fun. You'll note it's also random. That's part of the fun, most the time you get a minimal amount, but sometimes you get a whole bunch, nodes pop up random places, albeit within limits to keep it easy. Numerous studies have shown people like that--hence pursuing things like gambling, despite horrible returns on investment.
Either way, it's got good Flow. The game designers are masters at Flow. You'll note the more challenging quests tend to have more significant rewards--now you know why.
You'll also note that people get VERY unhappy when the Flow balance is messed up. Draigoch? Too much reward for too little challenge. Orthanc? Too little reward for a huge challenge. Foundry? Perfectly balanced. Turtle? Good. Vile Maw? Good.
So now think about this. What if CC never missed/resisted/failed/had a random component? Well we'd all just be following a scripted fight then, killing MOB by MOB in order as planned, with no variation, no challenge, no risk. It would be very boring (à la Draigoch, the most repetitive boring fight in the game).
People would have to do other things to find entertainment (à la Draigoch, where people watch TV while doing it).
If anything, there should be MORE random factors in the game. Trouble in Tuckburough? Mix up which places have retaliation attacks so we'd never be sure when they'd happen. They make the random MOB selection and skirm encounters for just such a reason.
PS: You'll note also that I avoid skills that have a random factor to them in my own play. I dislike skills that do extra things based on crits. I dislike the burg skills that do things 25% of the time, and avoid them. However I do recognize the fun-factor inherent in the design, and believe they will never remove remove that intentionally (and if they do, expect fewer people to bother playing, they wouldn't know exactly why, but they'd stop calling the game fun, and blame it on other factors).
PPS: RtrnofdMax, sorry, I'd prefer to discuss the topic at hand, than engage with you personally.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
So now think about this. What if CC never missed/resisted/failed/had a random component?
In this case, the random element is still the guy behind the keyboard and the 11 other people he's hanging out with.
Originally Posted by RJFerret
If anything, there should be MORE random factors in the game. Trouble in Tuckburough? Mix up which places have retaliation attacks so we'd never be sure when they'd happen. They make the random MOB selection and skirm encounters for just such a reason.
Well sure, that sounds like a good idea.
...and I find myself at a genuine loss for words as to why something like this sounds entertaining to me while something like missing a skill is just annoying. I guess part of it is that dealing with a miss is just a fight with the User Interface. You have to look for the little words floating above that huge mob's head, or stare at that little spot below his morale bar. It takes you away from the action. A death due to me failing to pick up all the mobs with Challenge is reasonable. A death due to miss- ready and able- miss-blinding flash-miss is something else entirely.
One thing that could be expanded upon in this game is moving miss chance (as in Options-> Combat Options -> Skills enable moving miss chance). The idea of skills being no-miss when standing still, but having a possibility to miss when moving would be compelling game play. There are trade-offs. There are options. It would reward thoughtful play over random luck. Ironically enough, 0% miss when stationary/lowered to-hit while moving is exactly how it works in DDO.
Last edited by scrubmonkey; Mar 20 2012 at 03:50 AM.
I've heard a rumor that if you slot the horseshoe and make certain you have exactly 2749 power while weraing a purple hood and walking backwards you will never miss
Ah, good point. The difference, I feel, is that a positive random outcome is viewed as fun, while a negative one is viewed as frustrating. We're talking about a game here though, it's SUPPOSED to be fun. Why WOULDN'T the devs want to minimize annoying things, as long as it doesn't negatively impact the game in the process?
[jump to later quote]
and I find myself at a genuine loss for words as to why something like this sounds entertaining to me while something like missing a skill is just annoying.... A death due to me failing to pick up all the mobs with Challenge is reasonable. A death due to miss- ready and able- miss-blinding flash-miss is something else entirely.
First, I wanted to thank you for responding in a good spirit. Too often, people on fora get bent out of shape when someone disagrees. So, +rep to you for that.
I guess it boils down to what people consider annoying. I'm an old school, pen-and-paper guy, having grown up with AD&D. You roll a 20, that was an automatic hit and crit. You roll a 1, that was a fumble. I know some people who just got rid of fumbles and crits altogether. But my friends and I loved that and house-ruled a more elaborate system. Some of our best moments were fumbles (including a certain half-orc who managed to cleave off his own right foot, and who couldn't decide whether it was better to just die or face everyone calling him stubby).
What I like about misses is that it gives you a chance to do something else. Mez miss? Try a stun or a root or call for help. Some of my fondest and proudest in-game moments was when everything went wrong, yet we somehow managed to recover.
Finally, I don't see the difference between a missed Challenge, a missed Blinding Flash, missed attacks, or missed evades. Perhaps the missed BF is more noticeable, but in the end, it's all the same underlying mechanic.
...and I find myself at a genuine loss for words as to why something like this sounds entertaining to me while something like missing a skill is just annoying. I guess part of it is that dealing with a miss is just a fight with the User Interface. You have to look for the little words floating above that huge mob's head, or stare at that little spot below his morale bar. It takes you away from the action.
Cool! :-)
Expectations perhaps? If we expect random attacks in Tuck, that's one thing, but since mezzing usually works, the rare miss is more upsetting since we expected it to take?? (Just brainstorming...)
However on the UI part, I have an idea, there's a plugin, Lotro Alerter, which could be setup to throw a message on screen when a mez is resisted, just as it's used to alert when someone breaks a mez. I use it to notify me when MOBs are reflecting damage, something I completely miss otherwise, a friend uses it to notify him of pet flanks on his LM.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
First, I wanted to thank you for responding in a good spirit. Too often, people on fora get bent out of shape when someone disagrees. So, +rep to you for that.
Thanks. We really haven't been talking about numbers for a while here, we've been talking about opinions. While numbers threads have right and wrong answers, opinion threads don't.
Originally Posted by anteku
I guess it boils down to what people consider annoying. I'm an old school, pen-and-paper guy, having grown up with AD&D. You roll a 20, that was an automatic hit and crit. You roll a 1, that was a fumble. I know some people who just got rid of fumbles and crits altogether. But my friends and I loved that and house-ruled a more elaborate system. Some of our best moments were fumbles (including a certain half-orc who managed to cleave off his own right foot, and who couldn't decide whether it was better to just die or face everyone calling him stubby).
See, I will always see a HUGE difference between missing on a skill due to my own mistake vs missing because that's what the computer decided to spit out on the roll. If I screw up, I can learn to play better, or react faster. For the RNG, I can only hope that things don't turn against us too badly (after taking the normal precautions in build and group make-up, ofc). It's very much about controllable factors vs random luck. There's a TON of psychological factors involved in that one, but I'll keep my point game related: It's easy to see misses as a negative thing because game design dictates that it is so. Even going with the AD&D example, you have your spell DCs as a caster or to-hit as a melee that you devote time and energy to increasing in order to minimize the chance of "bad luck". Failure chance is designed to be the enemy. I guess that makes it easy to see it as such?
Ah well. Our group still solves content, and solves it well. We are very capable of handling the odd bit of bad luck here and there, so that's not what I'm talking about. It's not what I prefer to deal with though, as I've played multiple alternatives.
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Of course we try to finish the pull, but it just gets a lot harder. But we can usually take out a couple of them before we go down.
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