If hunters were in such bad shape.. they wouldn't dominate the % of the population in the 'moors.
Flawed statistics. Of course there are a lot of hunters out there, simply because of the fact that they have always been a really straightforward class and have been immensly popular when creating your first char due to the movies. Of course if 30% of a server's population are hunters you will find relatively more in the moors as well. When you look upon the leaderboards you will notice a lot of minstrels coming up over the last year.
Still especially the leaderboards display a distribution that were set months or years before. It takes a lot of time to rank a class up so not everybody has the nerve to do it again with the flavour of the month. The leaderboards display a time were thigns were different usually. As conclusion, when you ranked up a hunter before, even if they are #### you are more likely to continue playing the char instead of starting a new one because it is suited better. That counts for the ranked hunters. As for new fellows, as said, often created and easy to understand. How many wardens do you see now that they are in a good shape? Not a heck of a lot, since there are only a few serverwide to understand this complex class.
By the way, when looking at the class distribution right now at dailystats I do not see a significant higher percentage compared to the other classic pvp classes the champion and burglar. Minstrels are quite close as well. Might be a 5% difference on the whole while the trend surely thins out the hunter line over the last two months.
I reckon it is different creepside. Due to less skills in general they are more straightforward and quite easy to learn, since there are no specific gear restrictions or necessities. Of course they are fodder in the beginning, but since essentially you can buy yourself your R15 creep it might be a shorter way. I reckon there you can say more with the daily class distribution, although wargs always were on top there, since they are the hunter's equivalent, easy to play hard to master.
On another matter, and I am repeating myself here, I do not want any survivability skills added to the hunter. I want a distinction back between armour types and I want may avoidances (the highest I ever had in this game, but due to finesse we all B/P/E the least) to work.
My main gripe is though I want my abilites to work properly, properly fixed and properly scaled and properly adjusted to a pvp environment, where every second counts. So basically a skill consolidation (getting rid of useless skills and force their effects into not so useless skills) and a decrease in our clumsiness. This would mean a better play flow by speeding up our animations and adding more fast and immediate skills, as well as enabling all skills bar inductions to be used on the run. Ah and traps, I would finally fix traps.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
Flaw in your counter. You yourself pointed out the increase in minstrels coming up (and champs). There is considerable flexibility for all the 'pain' of leveling to 75 and gearing. I have my own set of previously raid geared chars (I gave up on the PvE side, the quests and 'simplification' of many group/raid missions made me go zzzz). Those who really dislike being a hunter have plenty of mobility to switch classes and the distribution shifts prove the mobility.
As far as wardens, they are monsters in 1v1 and are very hard to kill even with a small group.... but how many creeps do you see wardens mowing down? Their offensive capabilities in group vs group or raid vs raid are minimal compared to everything else that the other freep classes can bring out. That is likely the main reason why wardens are still a minor class in the 'moors (and it's really not that terribly complicated....I stopped playing my warden for over a year, came back, and was tanking effectively again the same day.)
Flaw in your counter. You yourself pointed out the increase in minstrels coming up (and champs). There is considerable flexibility for all the 'pain' of leveling to 75 and gearing. I have my own set of previously raid geared chars (I gave up on the PvE side, the quests and 'simplification' of many group/raid missions made me go zzzz). Those who really dislike being a hunter have plenty of mobility to switch classes and the distribution shifts prove the mobility.
As far as wardens, they are monsters in 1v1 and are very hard to kill even with a small group.... but how many creeps do you see wardens mowing down? Their offensive capabilities in group vs group or raid vs raid are minimal compared to everything else that the other freep classes can bring out. That is likely the main reason why wardens are still a minor class in the 'moors (and it's really not that terribly complicated....I stopped playing my warden for over a year, came back, and was tanking effectively again the same day.)
It's always a matter of point of view whether you could switch to another class better suited for PvP. Most high ranks wont' just do it, since it took them so long to rank one up. Now adding up all the chores involved with levelling another character and gearing it up appropriately (which as a hunter right now means top tier gear) and most people just do not have the time for this as well as being a dedicated PvP-player. Right now if you let things strife it is way harder to get back up again, or time consuming.
Of course there is a fluctuation in numbers, it might even be a significant change when considering a longer period of time but the basics will not really change. Because of sheer numbers the classic DDs (stealth, melee, ranged) will always shine. Out of the three a hunter is the most straighforward class, so they always be ahead. Still numbers do not have a lot to say how balanced a class is.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
Hunters are what they always have been in PvP, the pewpew in RvR fights. Their raw DPS warrants them being glass cannons. You don't want that kind of damage attached to something that's hard to kill. If they were to make them better in any aspect it would have to come at the cost of damage. "But", you say, "BA's are tough, BA's have evade, what about them?" BA's hit for 4k once in while if they're lucky. Not 8-10k on a pretty regular basis. If you give hunters the mobility and survivability of a BA, then you have to give them the damage of a BA as well, which would really anger those who don't PvP.
Hunters are what they always have been in PvP, the pewpew in RvR fights. Their raw DPS warrants them being glass cannons. You don't want that kind of damage attached to something that's hard to kill. If they were to make them better in any aspect it would have to come at the cost of damage. "But", you say, "BA's are tough, BA's have evade, what about them?" BA's hit for 4k once in while if they're lucky. Not 8-10k on a pretty regular basis. If you give hunters the mobility and survivability of a BA, then you have to give them the damage of a BA as well, which would really anger those who don't PvP.
BAs hit Revenge for a rough 1.5k, right? Vital Target definetly hits for 2,7k still.
What does a R13 Ba have moralewise on average? 14-16k?
What does the average hunter have? 6.5k? By percentage they do hit the same, but one can fully negate the other's damage. When comparing the numbers you have to take in account the average morale pool as well and scale it accordingly.
Yet I do agree, we should not be made ranged tanks. But I can not remember a time where we were "hard to kill" as in taking too long to take down. Right now it is way too fast though considering the fact we wear medium armour and have quite a lot of avoidances. The whole fastended up combat system really did anything but work in our favour. I have not encountered a class so clumsy and static to play.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
history tells us that once Turbine says it's time for hunters to get some update lovin the results will be ridiculous
As a long time creep and one who called for the nerf bat a few times on hunters if that does happen you can bet there will be a "fix" in really soon. Show me a class that has been messed with more on either side, spiders are close, that has been hammered down by the devs. Hunters lost DF and they should have, but they got nothing in return. It is the only class out there right now without a safety net skill. They lost dps because of the 1 shot nonsense and had the entire blue line nerfed as well. Traps are rendered useless in the moors because of pots and slows are now easily gotten rid of with in-combat store brands. So while they have some very good dps (ahh... audacity) they have nothing to keep creeps at bay. Once inside melee range they are tissue paper.
You can point to statistics any way you want. Hunters can leech majorly from raids or groups so the renown can still flow a hunters way and they are doing nothing more than tagging and running. Same goes for BAs. Hunters need some work.. if that means giving up a bit of dps for some survival skills or a way to be less our dependence on induction skills I have no problem with that. Just tired of being the most popular item on the menu.
Tydalmir
Last edited by Tinluen; May 21 2012 at 04:46 PM.
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
As a long time creep and one who called for the nerf bat a few times on hunters if that does happen you can bet there will be a "fix" in really soon. Show me a class that has been messed with more on either side, spiders are close, that has been hammered down by the devs. Hunters lost DF and they should have, but they got nothing in return. It is the only class out there right now without a safety net skill. They lost dps because of the 1 shot nonsense and had the entire blue line nerfed as well. Traps are rendered useless in the moors because of pots and slows are now easily gotten rid of with in-combat store brands. So while they have some very good dps (ahh... audacity) they have nothing to keep creeps at bay. Once inside melee range they are tissue paper.
You can point to statistics any way you want. Hunters can leech majorly from raids or groups so the renown can still flow a hunters way and they are doing nothing more than tagging and running. Same goes for BAs. Hunters need some work.. if that means giving up a bit of dps for some survival skills or a way to be less our dependence on induction skills I have no problem with that. Just tired of being the most popular item on the menu.
Tydalmir
nice post - I don't disagree with some modification......just don't have much faith in how Turbine will execute that - we shall see
Umm you mean BA's got SOME tiny love then got nerfed, and are still meh RvR? And wargs are better solo now, and much better in RvR but still melt in 1s? Great buffs.
Originally Posted by VincentVanPort
BAs hit Revenge for a rough 1.5k, right? Vital Target definetly hits for 2,7k still.
What does a R13 Ba have moralewise on average? 14-16k?
What does the average hunter have? 6.5k? By percentage they do hit the same, but one can fully negate the other's damage. When comparing the numbers you have to take in account the average morale pool as well and scale it accordingly.
Okay, let's take the average morale pool of a hunter in a RAID. On brandywine good hunters have 9k+ morale in a raid. There is no chance in hell that semi decent healers will allow them to drop below 25% morale.
VT hits for 2.7k? Are you kidding me? On what, a rune-keeper with one audacity?
Moving target negates ranged damage woo, oops stunned four ISB's dead. Or oops lol tactical.
This game isn't balanced around one vs one and shouldn't be, it's Raid vs Raid. Look at things from that perspective, where hunters are untouchable dps gods until (if) the healers go down.
This game isn't balanced around one vs one and shouldn't be, it's Raid vs Raid. Look at things from that perspective, where hunters are untouchable dps gods until (if) the healers go down.
Nah, hunters melt quickly even with decent healers (unless you have like 4 minis and 4 cappys :P) if the craid has good focus fire.
Nah, hunters melt quickly even with decent healers (unless you have like 4 minis and 4 cappys :P) if the craid has good focus fire.
Umm that's the basic raid makeup of ranked freep raids on Brandywine. Hell we've had freep raids with 8 captains in them. Few weeks ago 13 Synchronized VT's couldn't take down a hunter with captains protection+5 captains and 4 minstrels healing him.
Umm that's the basic raid makeup of ranked freep raids on Brandywine. Hell we've had freep raids with 8 captains in them. Few weeks ago 13 Synchronized VT's couldn't take down a hunter with captains protection+5 captains and 4 minstrels healing him.
This is just nonsense or plain exaggeration. Let us do the maths again.
Let us say a non crit VT does 1k, right? Let us further say none of the BAs crit or misses. That would mean 13k of damage synchronized as you said. You said the average hunter runs around with 9k morale in a raid situation. So how could this hunter survive? If you were hitting on a bubbled hunter, good on you wasting 13 CDs on an invincible target. Now everybody can artifically create situations where it is impossible to even kill the stupid bird at the rez I guess and go to the forums and sell it as the norm.
Hunters in raids melt like butter in the sun still. If you assume high hunter DPS focus you can assume as good focus on a creep raid as well. Medium Armour mate; it's the same as running around naked.
And yes BAs hit VT for 2,7k still. Even with full audacity. Plus the dot of course. At least they can just cast the skill and not again create a moment with using all CDs to crit for 10k. I still reckon heartseeker to be the most stupid skill ever implemented. We would never ever have this discussion of that skill was deleted or worked otherwise.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
Umm that's the basic raid makeup of ranked freep raids on Brandywine. Hell we've had freep raids with 8 captains in them. Few weeks ago 13 Synchronized VT's couldn't take down a hunter with captains protection+5 captains and 4 minstrels healing him.
Originally Posted by VincentVanPort
This is just nonsense or plain exaggeration. Let us do the maths again.
Let us say a non crit VT does 1k, right? Let us further say none of the BAs crit or misses. That would mean 13k of damage synchronized as you said. You said the average hunter runs around with 9k morale in a raid situation. So how could this hunter survive? If you were hitting on a bubbled hunter, good on you wasting 13 CDs on an invincible target. Now everybody can artifically create situations where it is impossible to even kill the stupid bird at the rez I guess and go to the forums and sell it as the norm.
cappy protection= 50% of damage is transferred to the cappy. survivable. plus with all that healing their morale wouldnt even be low for all thatlong. and fraids on BW often have 4 cappys/4 mini's, if you are cslling that exaggeration too. you can always see someone in glff "moors raid need healers/cappys!
cappy protection= 50% of damage is transferred to the cappy. survivable. plus with all that healing their morale wouldnt even be low for all thatlong. and fraids on BW often have 4 cappys/4 mini's, if you are cslling that exaggeration too. you can always see someone in glff "moors raid need healers/cappys!
Yeah and this is exaggeration. It is like saying 13 combined heartseekers can not cut through the bubbled reaver! I do know that often raids have 4 captains, I have led one often enough. I guess with protection you mean "In harm's way". What's the CD on it? 20 seconds on the whole group on a 5 minute CD? or was it 10 minutes, when combined with last stand? What about swapping the target? Or does every captain hit it at the same time?
Btw. they are posting this because they probably do not have 4 captains yet.
Edit: This is just what I said before. You take the worst situation imaginable and sell it to the forums as the norm.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
Yeah and this is exaggeration. It is like saying 13 combined heartseekers can not cut through the bubbled reaver! I do know that often raids have 4 captains, I have led one often enough. I guess with protection you mean "In harm's way". What's the CD on it? 20 seconds on the whole group on a 5 minute CD? or was it 10 minutes, when combined with last stand? What about swapping the target? Or does every captain hit it at the same time?
Btw. they are posting this because they probably do not have 4 captains yet.
Edit: This is just what I said before. You take the worst situation imaginable and sell it to the forums as the norm.
nothing i said was an exaggeration.
how is having 4 cappys and 4 mini's the worst possible situation? seen worse than that. had 56+ freeps(those were the ones the warg tracked although he stated there were likely more due to limited range on trck) charge at 2 craids on BW before. needless to say the leader yelled at everyone to get their asses in to TA lol.
^thats a worst possible situation.
just fyi, when you use in harms way, a symbol pops up under each persons buffbars saying "you are being protected by a captain". lasts 20 secs(which is an eternity) on a 5 min CD. with even semi-decent healers, you dont even NEED to use it with last stand. yes, you can swap targets, but if a leader calls for VT's on his target and it gets bubbled/cappy protection, those VT's are on CD, and there goes creeps burst dps :P
nothing i said was an exaggeration.
Originally Posted by VincentVanPort
Btw. they are posting this because they probably do not have 4 captains yet.
not really sure what you meant by that, either.
EDIT: oh, just fyi. 1 HS=2-4VT's depending on the target, so that comparison was just ridiculous
how is having 4 cappys and 4 mini's the worst possible situation? seen worse than that. had 56+ freeps(those were the ones the warg tracked although he stated there were likely more due to limited range on trck) charge at 2 craids on BW before. needless to say the leader yelled at everyone to get their asses in to TA lol.
^thats a worst possible situation.
just fyi, when you use in harms way, a symbol pops up under each persons buffbars saying "you are being protected by a captain". lasts 20 secs(which is an eternity) on a 5 min CD. with even semi-decent healers, you dont even NEED to use it with last stand. yes, you can swap targets, but if a leader calls for VT's on his target and it gets bubbled/cappy protection, those VT's are on CD, and there goes creeps burst dps :P
nothing i said was an exaggeration.
not really sure what you meant by that, either.
EDIT: oh, just fyi. 1 HS=2-4VT's depending on the target, so that comparison was just ridiculous
No the worst possible situation is focusing a target with a bubble or in harm's way and this focus must have been applied to a target that already had it running most likely. And that's why it is the same as focusing a target that diminishes 90% of damage through a bubble. Bad choice of target. Even then there are times when 50% reduction just does not cut it. There are times when the 90% bubble does not cut it. And creep burst DPS is not limited by VT. As isn't heartseeker for freep burst DPS. Just because these are the most hard hitting skills in-game it does not mean they are dealing a sufficient job in raid vs raid environments. They don't.
Btw. as stated earlier a 2,7k VT on a hunter equals a 5,6k heartseeker on a BA, roughly assuming a BA with 14k morale and a hunter with 6,5k. Both doable on a roughly regular basis of dev crit chance.
The argument stands as is. If a target does not go down due to overheal or buffs you switch to an easier one. Statements made about an focus healed buffed freep are not valid. That is why I said, worst possible situation.
I also believe the stated setup was vastly overexaggerated. Was it a creep raid with 13 BAs? Never seen anything like this. And they manage to pop 13 VTs silmutaneously, a skill with an induction of roughly 3s? On a target that suddenly became subject of "In harm's way"? Was it done to make a point? Or to see if burst could pierce a seemingly easy target unexpectedly? Or a setup situation? Crazy things happen in raidfights. I have seen any side holdign their ground in a hostile keep, vastly outnumbered. Fights that were over when reavers charge ran out. Multiple reavers fall before they even reached the enemy etc. I could pull out any of these occurences and state: "This happened once! This happens all the time!" But everybody knew it would be nonsense. As with the stated example of 13 BAs.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
No the worst possible situation is focusing a target with a bubble or in harm's way and this focus must have been applied to a target that already had it running most likely. And that's why it is the same as focusing a target that diminishes 90% of damage through a bubble. Bad choice of target. Even then there are times when 50% reduction just does not cut it. There are times when the 90% bubble does not cut it. And creep burst DPS is not limited by VT. As isn't heartseeker for freep burst DPS. Just because these are the most hard hitting skills in-game it does not mean they are dealing a sufficient job in raid vs raid environments. They don't.
Btw. as stated earlier a 2,7k VT on a hunter equals a 5,6k heartseeker on a BA, roughly assuming a BA with 14k morale and a hunter with 6,5k. Both doable on a roughly regular basis of dev crit chance.
The argument stands as is. If a target does not go down due to overheal or buffs you switch to an easier one. Statements made about an focus healed buffed freep are not valid. That is why I said, worst possible situation.
I also believe the stated setup was vastly overexaggerated. Was it a creep raid with 13 BAs? Never seen anything like this. And they manage to pop 13 VTs silmutaneously, a skill with an induction of roughly 3s? On a target that suddenly became subject of "In harm's way"? Was it done to make a point? Or to see if burst could pierce a seemingly easy target unexpectedly? Or a setup situation? Crazy things happen in raidfights. I have seen any side holdign their ground in a hostile keep, vastly outnumbered. Fights that were over when reavers charge ran out. Multiple reavers fall before they even reached the enemy etc. I could pull out any of these occurences and state: "This happened once! This happens all the time!" But everybody knew it would be nonsense. As with the stated example of 13 BAs.
im honestly too tired to read all this. only part i read was about 13 VT simultaneously. how about the raid leader calls for all VT's on his target? they would all hit within 1-3 seconds of each other. target foward-healing off the raid leader would let the mini's/cappys know who is about to be hit.
ill respond to anything you said worth a response some other time :P
I've found that groups (raids especially) are terribad at focus firing. Far too often the group selects a target ramps up DPS on it, usually far too slowly to immediately drop it, and it gets healed/bubbled. This goes for freeps and creeps.
When focus fire is done correctly, enemies should die, especially when its freeps that focus a creep. I see way too often groups take a target and just DPS hoping something will die. Focusing a target that's already being healed is not conducive to killing it.
Its more about player skill and targetting quickly, both of which are quite often lacking in raids on BOTH sides.
im honestly too tired to read all this. only part i read was about 13 VT simultaneously. how about the raid leader calls for all VT's on his target? they would all hit within 1-3 seconds of each other. target foward-healing off the raid leader would let the mini's/cappys know who is about to be hit.
ill respond to anything you said worth a response some other time :P
It does not work like that, let me tell you by a person who is playing an induction based class. When somebody is telling a whole lot of 13 people to fire VT target NOW it will never hit simultaneously, not even close.
Firstly there is a TS delay, then there are people on the wrong target, people who are right in a long animation or induction already, people who have VT on CD already, then the usual slackers or persons saying, whatever I will ride my rotation to the end. Especially with a long animation or induction I would not expect them to all hit within 6-7 seconds. Moreover with instructions like this you are putting people off their rotation, effectively decreasing DPS and probably instead of the intended spike damage dealing far less than average. Damage dribbles instead of bursts here.
Usually Creeps will have two focus targets as well since more targets are by far harder to heal.
Also forward healing works the same. Announcing the target that might be focused might help, but it needs a couple of seconds as well. Yet saving people from death is by far more important than killing them.
It is not easy at all in PvP to carry out orders silmutaneously by a large number.
I found it best to let everybody go through their usual rotations instead of dictating these for them. I usually lead raids of R10+ where I can trust them to know what they are up to. Then you will have a regular high output of DPS and Spike Damage.
Apart form this, focusing a target that has heal focus on it already or anykind of bubble is often futile. Fast target switching fo ranged classes is also best ensured by enabling automatic target forwarding.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
It does not work like that, let me tell you by a person who is playing an induction based class. When somebody is telling a whole lot of 13 people to fire VT target NOW it will never hit simultaneously, not even close.
Firstly there is a TS delay, then there are people on the wrong target, people who are right in a long animation or induction already, people who have VT on CD already, then the usual slackers or persons saying, whatever I will ride my rotation to the end. Especially with a long animation or induction I would not expect them to all hit within 6-7 seconds. Moreover with instructions like this you are putting people off their rotation, effectively decreasing DPS and probably instead of the intended spike damage dealing far less than average. Damage dribbles instead of bursts here.
Usually Creeps will have two focus targets as well since more targets are by far harder to heal.
Also forward healing works the same. Announcing the target that might be focused might help, but it needs a couple of seconds as well. Yet saving people from death is by far more important than killing them.
It is not easy at all in PvP to carry out orders silmutaneously by a large number.
I found it best to let everybody go through their usual rotations instead of dictating these for them. I usually lead raids of R10+ where I can trust them to know what they are up to. Then you will have a regular high output of DPS and Spike Damage.
Apart form this, focusing a target that has heal focus on it already or anykind of bubble is often futile. Fast target switching fo ranged classes is also best ensured by enabling automatic target forwarding.
if it takes anymore than 5-7 seconds for all the BA's to fire off VT, unless they are getting targeted, they're either experiencing massive lag, or they suck.
also, WITHOUT that burst damage, assuming the fraid has competent healers, nothing should ever die unless they are standing in blight. in which case they deserve to die for being an idiots. takes 2-3 seconds max to get out of a blight puddle, and without the burst from VT, its hard for creeps to burn anything in that amount of time, even with the target receiving only 50% of heals.
dont know if you raid on creep side, but leading a fraid where "you will have a regular high output of DPS and Spike Damage.", isnt hard, assuming they arent wearing lvl 65 gear. freeps have a massive dps advantage over creeps, and healing advantage. its not hard to heal in a fraid, even if the creeps have 2 focus targets, as halved creep dps is even worse.
if it takes anymore than 5-7 seconds for all the BA's to fire off VT, unless they are getting targeted, they're either experiencing massive lag, or they suck.
also, WITHOUT that burst damage, assuming the fraid has competent healers, nothing should ever die unless they are standing in blight. in which case they deserve to die for being an idiots. takes 2-3 seconds max to get out of a blight puddle, and without the burst from VT, its hard for creeps to burn anything in that amount of time, even with the target receiving only 50% of heals.
dont know if you raid on creep side, but leading a fraid where "you will have a regular high output of DPS and Spike Damage.", isnt hard, assuming they arent wearing lvl 65 gear. freeps have a massive dps advantage over creeps, and healing advantage. its not hard to heal in a fraid, even if the creeps have 2 focus targets, as halved creep dps is even worse.
When I creeped we ran two targets one melee one ranged... I can tell you we blew freeps up without problems. I also ran Moof raids when BAs ran rotations of VT fire dot and screaming shafts with 4 minis trying to heal and once dotted up they couldn't keep the target from dying. It depends on leadership, targeting and knowing when to blow up the healers.... brave wargs and reavers died but minis would drop.
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
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