Thread: The hunter Delimma

I was playing my hunter since 2007, he was so strong at the start and very fun to play...sadly each update they weaken the hunter over and over till he became the first target marked for death in the moors. In the old days:
1-The heart seeker wasn’t detected (no yellow mark).
2-The hunter can get out of the fight easily as an escape plan (using DF).
Now:
1-The hunter lost 40% from his damage compared to old days..
2-There is no escape ability.
Magically, I was having fun and still belief that the hunter is a fun class to play....but right now...turbine decided to upgrade creeps and freeps to the point it made the hunter in a bad position.
Hunter VS BA: BA will use his evade (75%) for 30 sec + his 3k-4k heal and bye bye hunter.
Hunter VS Spider: cc the hell out of the hunter and hide under ground and when he pops up he will be full morale.
Hunter VS Warg: stun + cjs and so many wounds and the hunter die not to mention his big survivability skill (the stealth) and wait a sec he got the sprint too...and now he can disarm.
Hunter VS Reaver: if he charge you cant cc him...he put his wounds on the hunter...and disarm him...by the time the hunter try to recover he found himself with 1-2k morale. also, he can use his dying rage as escape or charge.
Hunter VS deflier: he can easily out heal the hunter dps while consuming the hunter power not to mention his cc skills too. he can use his dying rage as escape
The big picture is: right now the hunter die easily and cant survive longer while the creeps can evade+ heal+ bubble + stealth..etc.
I am directing my question to the developers. Don’t you think that the hunter needs your attention now? I found a solution for myself to be honest ...my solution is drink coffee and watch TV till you do something.

Go get your 1st age bow

post update 6.

FIRST AGE HUNTER BOW in moors atm:







current ettemoors hunter is roast in the moors. we haven't been able to solo (as in not stealth preping our attacks) for 1 1/2 - 2 x pacs now.

now its worse.... with audacity we cant blow things up like we used to.... wargs and weavers now have more interrupts.... inductions usless. pen shot no longer blows up...

moors sets for hunter were designed by picking set bonuses out of a hat (that got mixed up with the hat for pve set bonuses)


hunters are roast.... stick a fork in it my fellow hunters.... its over.. time to leave the ettenmoors.

Originally Posted by Lendas

post update 6.

FIRST AGE HUNTER BOW in moors atm:







INSTRUSCTIONS: place arrow in 3rd string closest to you

Talk to Yelk on Brandywine, he seems to be able to blow up creeps with proficiency and consistency.

P.S. Love that image

Hunter VS BA. True, the BA can pop his Evade, but if he doesn't, he's easily shot down by the hunter. Hell, I even have trouble getting off inductions from the hunters attacks on my BA.

Hunter vs Defiler. They can out heal your DPS? LOL!!!

Hunter vs Spider. With audacity, stunning is less effective. If you mean "CC the hell out" that would mean a fear every 10 second that lasts 1 second with damage and audacity? Also, the burrow heal is a rank 14 or 15 trait. Not many spiders even buy it. It's a low heal.

Hunter vs Reaver. Fair enough, any decent reaver should destroy a hunter.

Hunter vs WL. I can see skilled hunters easily defeating WL's due to kiting.

Hunter vs Warg. Again, any decent warg should kill a hunter.

Originally Posted by memo

Hunter VS Reaver: if he charge you cant cc him...he put his wounds on the hunter...and disarm him...by the time the hunter try to recover he found himself with 1-2k morale. also, he can use his dying rage as escape or charge.

Had to laugh at dying rage as an escape skill. Escape to what? Guaranteed death 15 seconds later? No thanks on the idea of using my 15 minute cooldown just to die.

Anyway, I would say my reaver wins every time against a hunter in a *fair* fight (meaning I get charge off, no brands, and no one else interferes). However, I did encounter one hunter yesterday who I hadn't seen out in a few months and he came < 500 morale from killing me. He's one of the better hunters on our server but it made it clear to me that most hunters aren't living up to their potential.

I'm not sure if you guys are serious. In the event you are, let me say that hunters dps easily rivals if not surpasses their dps of Book 6 Moria. If yall aren't absolutely blowing stuff up in 10 seconds or less, maybe try stacking more agility instead of vit/morale.

Originally Posted by Ravyrn

I'm not sure if you guys are serious. In the event you are, let me say that hunters dps easily rivals if not surpasses their dps of Book 6 Moria. If yall aren't absolutely blowing stuff up in 10 seconds or less, maybe try stacking more agility instead of vit/morale.

Not at all. You are dealing 10% less DMG from the start due to Audacity rank 1. Before U6 you are certainly right. I say we were in a better shape than with Moria and after Book7 these were good times still for any solo hunter. Reavers, BAs, Wargs, Spiders, all pretty doable. The same until last week too, well minus BA I guess. The new moors changes just basically do not favour hunters at all. Anyone with a bubble, heals, i.e the strong classes before really shine even more. Anything that delays fights is really worthy right now.

A 2k heal before now stays a 2k heal.
A 2k hit now equals a 1,6 hit now. (Audacity rank 7 is 20% right?)

So fights do last longer now because of not only reduced damage but also because of persistent heals.


Edit: Numbers are taken from 2 weeks from now on when regular opponents have their audacity up of course. Right now, DMG dealt is still high. But of course the creeps with the least chances against hunters received significant buffs.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

A 2k heal before now stays a 2k heal.
A 2k hit now equals a 1,6 hit now. (Audacity rank 7 is 20% right?).

actually i believe R7 audacity is 30%, not 20%. although i may have my numbers wrng on this.

Originally Posted by Lendas

^^Are you suggesting we buff hunters to be a hybrid mini/hunter/chicken?

How sad OP, my heart bleeds for your 'Delimma'.

You miss the times when the hunter was so strong and could escape from absolute death with just a click of a button (df).
You sure are a wearing those freep goggles thick, yea?


And all your Hunter VS xxx examples use a big massive IF; IF the weaver used a high rank/cash shop skill, IF the BA used evade, IF the weaver was lucky enough to get off a charge and reach you up close, IF the warg was in stealth and you dint track it and it got up close to you, IF the defiler can heal off your DPS....you are joking bout that one right? And you forgot to mention the point that, IF you(hunter) dint use 1st age weapons, massive set bonus gear, hunter track, store pots, store brands, scroll buffs, resistance foods, hope tokens, freep buffs or moor based traits in general you might end up dying in a fight, how could you miss out on that point? Are you a 'melee hunterd' that you dont have the DPS to crit the hell out of any creep at range? Looking at your rank and your whining about a class that does good in the moors, you either want tons of self heals, higher than usual burst damage and 10k+ morale bubbles like those other ezmodder freep classes or you just had a bad day in the moors and came to crib on the forums bout how your class needs more ezmodding skills.

Ive seen the decent hunters on my server, lie in stealth in middle of freep raids, near spawn points or even on pillars/keeps and land those crits on creeps running by, unaware of the danger. Or simply stay safe at a good range and pew pew with constant crits, dev crits and normal shots that hit more than creep crits on a constant basis. At range a hunter is lethal as is meant to be, and if you are whining bout audacity then go get some pvp gear to give you the audacity ranks, you know like what the devs intended you to do, or do yourself a favour and dont hit the moors and get your BP rising.

If you want to play a game where pvp is governed by the developer's love for one side only and where player skill only goes as far as keeping the underdog side from getting curb stomped each and every time but doesnt the least do anything bout making the match fair........then you have come to the right game!! LOTRO is just for you, roll a mini or champ and enjoy the godmode today. If your hunter seems only like a demi-god in comparison...then too bad, so sad.

Originally Posted by Ravyrn

I'm not sure if you guys are serious. In the event you are, let me say that hunters dps easily rivals if not surpasses their dps of Book 6 Moria. If yall aren't absolutely blowing stuff up in 10 seconds or less, maybe try stacking more agility instead of vit/morale.

my agility 2233 and my morale 5449

and like how VincentVanPort explained

Needful haste needs the 15 seconds that were taken away added back to it.

That is all.

& if you think it is hard playing a hunter now you should of tried playing a spider during RoI. You know.. when one swift bow was taking out 5-8k morale. Or when one Bloodarrow was taking off 50% of the spiders health.

Wow, just .. Wow.


A mass of hunters complaining everything is too hard to deal with.

There's a first for everything.



Seriously, just go trait redline and one/two-shot somebody.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So you want to tell us, this is not true?:

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

Had to laugh at dying rage as an escape skill. Escape to what? Guaranteed death 15 seconds later? No thanks on the idea of using my 15 minute cooldown just to die.

Anyway, I would say my reaver wins every time against a hunter in a *fair* fight (meaning I get charge off, no brands, and no one else interferes). However, I did encounter one hunter yesterday who I hadn't seen out in a few months and he came < 500 morale from killing me. He's one of the better hunters on our server but it made it clear to me that most hunters aren't living up to their potential.

A death outside of renown yielding range is not really a death...it's just a free escape port to the rez circle.

It's functionally pretty much the same as the hunter's Desperate Flight. The ONLY difference is that you have to pick a direction and run. At the end of your run, you're safely transported to the rez circle, no harm done.

I have no sympathy whatsoever. Near the end of U6, maxed out hunters were blowing up veteran creeps from stealth using burn hot. There was no chance for those creeps to counter or do anything besides hit 'release' back to the rez circle.

Hunters are targeted heavily by raids because their sustained DPS if you let them set up will kill the creep raid more than any other freep class, especially when you consider the effort required for killing a hunter vs killing a RK/Minstrel/Champ

Don't want to be targetted? Roll a warden.

Originally Posted by aklouie

I have no sympathy whatsoever. Near the end of U6, maxed out hunters were blowing up veteran creeps from stealth using burn hot. There was no chance for those creeps to counter or do anything besides hit 'release' back to the rez circle.

Hunters are targeted heavily by raids because their sustained DPS if you let them set up will kill the creep raid more than any other freep class, especially when you consider the effort required for killing a hunter vs killing a RK/Minstrel/Champ

Don't want to be targetted? Roll a warden.

if i remember correctly hunters could get blow up just as fast. your point is not fully developed as you see that hunters only chance of defeating a creep was attacking out of stealth with burn hot on a non-BA target.

that was our only strong side... that we could knock you out before you got to us. because when you get to us and we cant gen anymore focus (from induction skills)..... we are hopeless.

melee is dead. inductions are dead. kites are dead for some classes.

our armor is tissue paper.

we have 0 survival skills (DONT SAY CC BECAUSE ITS SO #### AND IS NOW 50% LESS EFFECTIVE AND REAVERS ARE NOW IMMUNE FOR 10 SEC!!!!!!)

our only stong side: dps, got nefed 30% while the extra 30% we got will only delay the inevitable.................sin ce we cant fight well/at all when we are getting hit with no focus.... we cant do much but hope that the creep will kill us swiftly.




MAY I BRING IT TO YOUR ATTENTION that "vet" hunters are having big problems getting blown up instantly by most creep classes. (and the most popular ones)


your point of argument is dust.


we are squishy, we cant dps when hit, zombie help us!


And on this:

Originally Posted by Vilda

So you want to tell us, this is not true?:

there is a reason for that.

1: turbine made us that way... most of our skills are ####
2: its the only effective thing to do in the moors. want me to use my inductions and melee? that would be truly brainless.
3: the focus/pen/fleetness is because of the fact that pen shot is the only moving shot that has any kind of power. without it we would be swiveling around trying to get an induction off that, if the induction ends, will prolly not have the target in from of them.

Hmmm, I haven't seen a hunter yet in a 1v1 with anyone who didn't have time to at least get a single skill off or pop a pot. Those taken out by hunters don't have that time.

(and we DO have to make the assumption that the said hunter isn't a level 50 wearing only his underwear).

Even when taking large group/raid after a hunter, they die the fastest but not THAT fast.

And before you start talking about how high creep morale gets, let me tell you about a ~21k (with captain buffs, 19k when alone) guardian who happily shield walls hunters (and healers) and the hunter blows everyone up for the guard.

Isn't 3-shotting ppl in 2 sec, 12k HS and "better" cc than an lm enough for you?

You should maybe learn to play on light-op terms instead of op terms? A filthy rich man who suddenly becomes only a millionaire will find himself poor and cry that he can't go on living like that while he forgets that a lot of ppl are poor/under-powered... If you want hardcore op, go rk, mini, burg, tank or champ. Even they will complain if they go from seriously op to light op.

^ pot... kettle.

Good hunters can still take my warg out from range before I can even get close to them

Yes, if I have HIPS/Sprint up then that changes the odds but if not Im dust

Hunters are very strong at this point in the game

Botton line:

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Good hunters can still take my warg out from range before I can even get close to them

Yes, if I have HIPS/Sprint up then that changes the odds but if not Im dust

Hunters are very strong at this point in the game

Botton line:

Stealth is clearly overrated... l2lulz.

Originally Posted by memo

not to mention his cc skills too. he can use his dying rage as escape

Must be trollin'. By the way you forgot hunter vs WL.

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Good hunters can still take my warg out from range before I can even get close to them

Botton line:

you can get to them easily now with audcaity 7,if they wear it too they will have lower dps cause it offer more morale than the pve gear

Go Hunters!

Nothing better than seeing a conga line of creeps without a hunter commenting on how they don't suck.


Without a doubt there are a small few hunters who can compete. Unfortunately, many if not most creeps only remember the stealthed burn-hot heartseeker they took in the back for 10k. The point most everyone misses is that the typical #245th average hunter gets his/her backside handed to them over and over again. It reminds me of playing a creep from up until Mirkwood. You had to have tough skin and not care about dying on a creep back then. Hunter is the same now. To be honest, I've played my hunter since kills were +3 renown per before Forochel even existed. The hunter has never been in a less competitive position. It just is the way it is.


People need to understand that the dev who does hunters also introduced the commendation system everyone hates in the Moors. We (as hunters) just have to deal with it on a daily basis and X2 when we go PvP.

Originally Posted by aklouie

I have no sympathy whatsoever. Near the end of U6, maxed out hunters were blowing up veteran creeps from stealth using burn hot. There was no chance for those creeps to counter or do anything besides hit 'release' back to the rez circle.

Hunters are targeted heavily by raids because their sustained DPS if you let them set up will kill the creep raid more than any other freep class, especially when you consider the effort required for killing a hunter vs killing a RK/Minstrel/Champ

Don't want to be targetted? Roll a warden.

And wargs were basically skill locking hunters with the stuns and no cool down on claws.... your point being each class has had its spot in the light and have fallen to the bottom. You know me well enough to tell it like it is Vyxe and hunters do need a boost to their survival skills or they need something to cut down on their induction times. Sure you want them dead because they can spit out a bunch of dps, but we are also the easiest targets to take down out there bar none. Audacity helped all the healing toons and hurt the pure dpsers. Hunters and reavers have felt this the most. Pure dps got hit for up to 30% yet any heals are still fine. At least reavers have dying rage and sprint... hunters don't even have that. Don't try the stealth stuff either, with trackers available I am tracked more often than not out there. Again, always look for the easy meal. What Oh Sh** buttons does a hunter have compared to the other classes? Sorry hunter needs a bit of love.

Tydalmir

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Good hunters can still take my warg out from range before I can even get close to them

Yes, if I have HIPS/Sprint up then that changes the odds but if not Im dust

Hunters are very strong at this point in the game

Botton line:

Then get some advice from Harmlesspuppy, and a few other wargs out there. They don't seem to be having any problems right now.

Seriously if the warg has to burn both sprint and disappear you need a refresher course. Hunters have to do absolutely everything right and get a bit lucky burning everything they have: pots, coolburn, NH and intent and most of the time it is all for naught.

No freep or creep googles here, tell it like it is ... solo hunter = easy kill.

Tydalmir

I feel for PvP hunters, I do. First targets, easily dispatched most of them. However there are those who have adapted their builds for the current situation that frankly, are very tough to take down 1v1. Spit out a ton of DPS, with mouse turning and staying stationary. Hunters remind me of Pre-ROI champions, extremely build dependant, mostly easily dispatched but in the hands of a few skilled players were still very powerful.

All I can say is either adapt or don't play. Each class seems to have its time in the sun at some point. IIRC there are stories of average hunters one-shotting creeps with Moria. You have to give up things to have 40m nuke ability, if you think your going to get some survival skills and still be able to pew pew, your crazy.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I feel for PvP hunters, I do. First targets, easily dispatched most of them. However there are those who have adapted their builds for the current situation that frankly, are very tough to take down 1v1. Spit out a ton of DPS, with mouse turning and staying stationary. Hunters remind me of Pre-ROI champions, extremely build dependant, mostly easily dispatched but in the hands of a few skilled players were still very powerful.

All I can say is either adapt or don't play. Each class seems to have its time in the sun at some point. IIRC there are stories of average hunters one-shotting creeps with Moria. You have to give up things to have 40m nuke ability, if you think your going to get some survival skills and still be able to pew pew, your crazy.

Good point, but that was before pots, and the new store bought goodies. My BA can have better evade, parry and block than my hunter, hit on the move 20 meters out and double his morale. Also the BS store brands make it impossible to fight at that 40 meter range anymore. Hunters lost a huge amount of armour and mits and now are losing the stand off capabilities they need to do that dps. With audacity limiting the damage, and having to choose between moors gear or faron set there is no clear cut advantage for a hunter to choose. Also add in the CC mit for 7 Aud and kiting is a very dicey proposition. Add in how other creep toons have abilities to close that gap and hunters are in exactly the bad spot you see them right now.

Tydalmir

Hunter's don't need buffs....they need a trade off
Currently hunters only viable build is glass-cannon. No movement, no survivability, a TON of damage.

Hunter's need to be able to trade off damage for some type of survivability without becoming OP like minis or useless like shield-wardens.

Originally Posted by Tinluen

Then get some advice from Harmlesspuppy, and a few other wargs out there. They don't seem to be having any problems right now.

Seriously if the warg has to burn both sprint and disappear you need a refresher course. Hunters have to do absolutely everything right and get a bit lucky burning everything they have: pots, coolburn, NH and intent and most of the time it is all for naught.

No freep or creep googles here, tell it like it is ... solo hunter = easy kill.

Tydalmir

He's saying if a hunter catches HIM at 40m range. Surely a warg (especially in shadow has no chance of escape here without using sprint or dissapear, so what's the issue? I don't think basically saying l2play here is appropriate, as I'm sure even you will agree if you get the jump on most things you can blow them up..

Originally Posted by Elehir

He's saying if a hunter catches HIM at 40m range. Surely a warg (especially in shadow has no chance of escape here without using sprint or dissapear, so what's the issue? I don't think basically saying l2play here is appropriate, as I'm sure even you will agree if you get the jump on most things you can blow them up..

No, I can't. That is the sad part of this story. With brands the warg can ignore any slow or CC, close and chew up the hunter without using any cool down. If caught at distance he can use either to avoid the encounter, or attack and chew up the hunter. So, what I am saying is the warg has at least one cool down to use if he makes a mistake. The hunter is going to have to blow it all. Most smart wargs will see the burn hot scream of rage and just back off until it runs out. Then they will move in.

My point is a hunter right now must use it all to get a kill on a vet/storebought creep. Other classes can sit back and use only one or two cool downs and be fine. So much of it comes down to crit luck and no resists for a hunter. So I stand by my statement; look in the mirror before you tell a hunter Learn2play.

Or, better yet, log on your hunter and I will bring out my warg and you can show me how to get the kill.

Tydalmir

Originally Posted by mager555

Hunter's don't need buffs....they need a trade off
Currently hunters only viable build is glass-cannon. No movement, no survivability, a TON of damage.

Hunter's need to be able to trade off damage for some type of survivability without becoming OP like minis or useless like shield-wardens.

This guy hit the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by Tinluen

No, I can't. That is the sad part of this story. With brands the warg can ignore any slow or CC, close and chew up the hunter without using any cool down. If caught at distance he can use either to avoid the encounter, or attack and chew up the hunter. So, what I am saying is the warg has at least one cool down to use if he makes a mistake. The hunter is going to have to blow it all. Most smart wargs will see the burn hot scream of rage and just back off until it runs out. Then they will move in.

My point is a hunter right now must use it all to get a kill on a vet/storebought creep. Other classes can sit back and use only one or two cool downs and be fine. So much of it comes down to crit luck and no resists for a hunter. So I stand by my statement; look in the mirror before you tell a hunter Learn2play.

Or, better yet, log on your hunter and I will bring out my warg and you can show me how to get the kill.

Tydalmir

You're saying WITH sprint and dissapear he can do those things, my post and the post you originally quoted clearly state WITH NO sprint or dissapear. If I catch a warg at 40m, hit him, he has to run 40 meters while I pump out massive dps, he'll be dead before he reaches me as he DOES NOT have dissapear or sprint.

I've seen you in the moors and you're a good player, which is why I can't understand what you're saying. I can acknowledge hunters have lots of issues sure, but at 40 meters a hunter is in it's element, and if you catch a creep first then you will most likely win.

Also my hunter is not on Elendilmir, and I doubt you have a warg on my server but if you want you can PM me and find out, and if you do i'll gladly fight you, and we can replicate some scenarios if you wish.

The warg has Los as a way out. Most hunters will not charge the warg down because it will usually get out of combat and hips away before you can reach them, or they want to keep that 40 meter cushion and let the warg go. With skills like charge, sprint, disappear, burrow, ect it is hard to keep foes at max limits. Add to the skills pots, Audacity and now the store brands that ability that the hunter needs is very limited. If we still had our armor and mits there wouldn't be anything to complain about. What I am saying is that although a hunter is listed as an easy toon to play in pve it requires a skilled player doing it right all the time using every skill and pot you have just to have a chance of winning a 1v1. It may be the most difficult class to master in the moors besides a warden. I don't want easy mode, but if I have to blow everything to win shouldn't my opponent have to as well?

Star Lit Crystals

Originally Posted by Tinluen

if I have to blow everything to win shouldn't my opponent have to as well?

Welcome to the biggest creepside dilemma. Turbine says no.


But, isn't hips and sprint all a warg has anyway?