Thread: Hunters in the moors

I dunno, I seem to be doing fine on my hunter. Good wargs are a tougher fight than before, but I don't just roll over and die as soon as one pounces me. 95% of the wargs on my server still melt away like butter despite them getting the initial pounce. The other 5% are the really good wargs who know what they're doing, and with them, it's always a close fight. Sometimes I get them, just, sometimes they get me, just, sometimes it's a double kb. Seems pretty balanced to me. I consider myself a fairly good hunter so I reckon there isn't too much to QQ about without looking extremely bias. I pretty much face-roll players who are worse than me (I beat a r7 warg who pounced me yesterday using only melee skills.....), but with good players, I have great, exciting fights. Conversely, perhaps all these hunters who are losing so soundly may not be very highly skilled and yet are encountering players who ARE really good. If that's the case, then there really is no grounds for complaint.

Since U6, I've beaten audacity 7, WL's, Defilers, Reavers, Wargs, Spiders, and BA's in 1v1's. Good ones too. I've lost as well, I'm not pretending I'm superman and everything I shoot just falls down and dies, it takes hard work, smart tactics and perfect execution, (especially vs. high ranked WL's and Defilers). Since U6, when I've small grouped, I've essentially tanked the focus fire from 10+ creeps and wiped them with only dps-traited captain heals and warden conviction heals. I don't raid, but I suppose since U6 raiding is essentially exactly the same for hunters.

Bottom line, Hunters are fine since U6, just less face-rolly than before. Good hunters will still prosper, bad hunters who were only really successful before due to over-reliance on high burst damage, will struggle. Try, fail, learn, adapt, try again, win.

You have to be really amazing to be successful on Hunter now. It can be done, but the average Hunter will have a much harder time than before. If you don't have Audacity I wouldn't even bother.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

You have to be really amazing to be successful on Hunter now. It can be done, but the average Hunter will have a much harder time than before. If you don't have Audacity I wouldn't even bother.

Well put. Take an average hunter vs any average creep and the creep won't lose.


The only reason people think hunters are doing decent is because the only hunters who still play are the decent ones. Check the daily stats site by BAoS. Hunter numbers have been in decline for some time. Though they're still out in appreciable numbers, the trend is unquestionably on the down turn.


People like what's fun and what's easy. Hunter isn't a ton of fun nor easy lately. That's why the fair-weather hunters are on minstrels, wargs or BAs.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

You have to be really amazing to be successful on Hunter now. It can be done, but the average Hunter will have a much harder time than before. If you don't have Audacity I wouldn't even bother.

i would say other way arround.

hunter before u6 was a bad joke. now they make fun.

Originally Posted by Bond007

I can still 1v1 fine in the moors, but it's hard. Much, much harder than pre-U6.
Once more than one person is on me though it becomes less of a challenge and more of an inevitable ending. With a string of crits I occasionally (meaning like 1/6 or so of the time) can take down one creep before the other kills me, and this is of course ignoring the possibility that they CC-ed me.
I think seyz was trying to point to the fact that 1vnot 1 has become impossible for hunters with U6, while for other classes, freep and creep alike, it is not impossible, just more challenging. Roaming around the moors alone is discouraged, because you might get jumped by a pair of creeps or more. Other classes can do fine being loners though. What. The. Heck.

Creeps winning 1v2's or more? News to me. Prob about as rare as Halleys comet...

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Creeps winning 1v2's or more? News to me. Prob about as rare as Halleys comet...

WLs, defilers, spiders all have an easy job with this.
Wargs, BAs, and reavers have less survivability unless they pop CDs so they have more challenge... but the have CDs to pop. Have you never seen a BA pop moving target, Uruk heal if needed, and kite freeps to death? Get out of your hole man. A couple on my server (Daddyofglee, Tingur, Westmiss if you happen to know gladden pvpers) can take on 3 freeps fairly well, and that "fairly" turns into "with ease" if none of those freeps are a tact class.
Wargs can kill someone before they even get up if he gets crits, and with the trait adding 20% crit to attacks from stealth (which just so happens to be all attacks in shadow) this can happen frequently on light classes. HIPS or sprint, and come back fresh for the second freep.
I think you should get the point by now, so I'm gonna stop with the strategy plans. Creeps can win 1v2 or even 3 with skill and luck. A pair of skilled creeps makes an even deadlier menace. Creeps have never been in a "terrible" spot IMO. Even in SoM when everyone complained I had no problem ranking up my then low ranked creeps. They've always had CDs to get out of rough spots, and they don't have to go through the grind for LIs, jewelry, etc.
Tl;dr: Take off the creep goggles. You're fine.

Originally Posted by Bond007

WLs, defilers, spiders all have an easy job with this.
Wargs, BAs, and reavers have less survivability unless they pop CDs so they have more challenge... but the have CDs to pop. Have you never seen a BA pop moving target, Uruk heal if needed, and kite freeps to death? Get out of your hole man. A couple on my server (Daddyofglee, Tingur, Westmiss if you happen to know gladden pvpers) can take on 3 freeps fairly well, and that "fairly" turns into "with ease" if none of those freeps are a tact class.
Wargs can kill someone before they even get up if he gets crits, and with the trait adding 20% crit to attacks from stealth (which just so happens to be all attacks in shadow) this can happen frequently on light classes. HIPS or sprint, and come back fresh for the second freep.
I think you should get the point by now, so I'm gonna stop with the strategy plans. Creeps can win 1v2 or even 3 with skill and luck. A pair of skilled creeps makes an even deadlier menace. Creeps have never been in a "terrible" spot IMO. Even in SoM when everyone complained I had no problem ranking up my then low ranked creeps. They've always had CDs to get out of rough spots, and they don't have to go through the grind for LIs, jewelry, etc.
Tl;dr: Take off the creep goggles. You're fine.

I didn't even read most of this thread but after reading the first sentence of this post, I was already LOLing. There isn't anything easy about creep side, unless you are a hunter that just got jumped by a warg, you should be fine. Take off the bad-at-freep goggles and go blow some creeps up. Half the creeps aren't even going to be able to train skills with this new currency so ya.

Originally Posted by Bond007

WLs, defilers, spiders all have an easy job with this.
Wargs, BAs, and reavers have less survivability unless they pop CDs so they have more challenge... but the have CDs to pop. Have you never seen a BA pop moving target, Uruk heal if needed, and kite freeps to death? Get out of your hole man. A couple on my server (Daddyofglee, Tingur, Westmiss if you happen to know gladden pvpers) can take on 3 freeps fairly well, and that "fairly" turns into "with ease" if none of those freeps are a tact class.
Wargs can kill someone before they even get up if he gets crits, and with the trait adding 20% crit to attacks from stealth (which just so happens to be all attacks in shadow) this can happen frequently on light classes. HIPS or sprint, and come back fresh for the second freep.
I think you should get the point by now, so I'm gonna stop with the strategy plans. Creeps can win 1v2 or even 3 with skill and luck. A pair of skilled creeps makes an even deadlier menace. Creeps have never been in a "terrible" spot IMO. Even in SoM when everyone complained I had no problem ranking up my then low ranked creeps. They've always had CDs to get out of rough spots, and they don't have to go through the grind for LIs, jewelry, etc.
Tl;dr: Take off the creep goggles. You're fine.

LOL......



Take off your freep goggles. youre fine...

Best to have a fair opinion is to play several class from both side ... Of course it is almost impossible due to time constraint ...

I'm a vet Hunter on Gladden (r12), I'm also playing a Warg, a Ba, a Defiler and a Burglar, but at a much lesser extent ... (none are r6+). I play most likely solo, but do some raid when numbers are on (our server is not big populated).

From what i've seen hunter is the most unbalanced class in the game, don't yell : i don't say underpowered
We have no defence, we can only rely on slow that can be easily countered using pot (10 sec immunity to combat state) or creep skills (run, slows -most of creep slows cannot be potted-). We have no life saver cd as most class have (still as death, hips, run, sprint, burrow, bubbles). Our only weapon is the massive dps burst we can do and which can kill many creeps in a matter of seconds.

So basically when i meet a creep that know its class I may win if i can ambush him and dps him until he had enough time to react. I can do that too when meeting a creep fellow, i can do a suicide dps burst and get a kill before being jumped. But most other cases will result to a hunter dead.

That last update add 30% mitigation to creeps once they will be fully geared (we already have a bunch on our server) which is a big loss for our class, 30% more mitigation on a squishy hunter is just a joke knowing as once we get hammered we lose most of our dps, it's just keeping alive a useless piece of meat 1 more sec.

So yes hunter life is (much) harder than several monthes ago.

Moreover creeps are not stupid and know our weaknesses, so we are always first target in fight, any raid fight i do is always on the same scenario, target caller loop on all hunter in our group and kill them one by one, then the hunter just sits and look for a few minutes raid fight ... We have no wl bubble or stuff like that to guarantee that a target won't be killed.
I'm usually sneaking everytime i can, and often waiting for being tracked before sneaking prior to a raid fight as it's another way to target us easily, but this does not solve the main problem, as once i unsneak to dps, i'm sure to pounced, raid targetted and die within 5 sec, and nothing will be able to save me. This is what I find the more frustrating in current hunter design.

This is my experience of the hunter since I pvmp here. Big dps thats cool, but a complete fail in survavibility, prefered target, lots of time sitting dead or riding back from rez. Thats our sad life

If turbine plan to do an update which does not weaken our class more, i wish they gave us more survavibility ...

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

I didn't even read most of this thread but after reading the first sentence of this post, I was already LOLing. There isn't anything easy about creep side, unless you are a hunter that just got jumped by a warg, you should be fine. Take off the bad-at-freep goggles and go blow some creeps up. Half the creeps aren't even going to be able to train skills with this new currency so ya.

I'll admit, the 2-3k comms needed for even r1 or 2 skills rather sucks for creepside. P2W, huh.
Secondly, I don't have any goggles I need to take off, tyvm. I know both sides. Got a r6 warg, r5 reaver, r5 BA, r4 WL, r4 defiler so I'm not new to any creepside classes. Doubt it? Look at chars attached to my account. And of course, I've got my r7 soon to be 8, hunter which is my main.
I've got plenty of experience with both sides of PvP and while some might not like a complete objective view, it's your job to get over yourself or not post on the opposite forums with arguments that make no sense. If you play creeps mainly (assuming you do) you should very well know the only thing lol-worthy right now is the lack of skills at r0 (but hey you can, as many do, pay TP for those skills! Big ol' slap in the face for the vets). Green rings were negated a while back. Promotions are pretty much the only thing you really gain for higher levels.
It's not hard to kill freeps, unless you think you're supposed to be able to charge into EC and pull the entire place and still get that kill. Which BAs and wargs might as well be able to do anyways with MT and HIPS at their disposal.

Turbine! give Mamiport back to huntards please. 20-30min cooldown is not bad, ratinghugger ezmoders will be happy about it
Mamiport or hunters Moving target? moving target=-50% ranged damage.

Most of hunters just go without any new pvp piece and they QQ sad but true (Metallica).

The only way to balance hunters is to remove them from pvp, then we can be top dps class again in pve.

Originally Posted by Bond007

I'll admit, the 2-3k comms needed for even r1 or 2 skills rather sucks for creepside. P2W, huh.
Secondly, I don't have any goggles I need to take off, tyvm. I know both sides. Got a r6 warg, r5 reaver, r5 BA, r4 WL, r4 defiler so I'm not new to any creepside classes. Doubt it? Look at chars attached to my account. And of course, I've got my r7 soon to be 8, hunter which is my main.
I've got plenty of experience with both sides of PvP and while some might not like a complete objective view, it's your job to get over yourself or not post on the opposite forums with arguments that make no sense. If you play creeps mainly (assuming you do) you should very well know the only thing lol-worthy right now is the lack of skills at r0 (but hey you can, as many do, pay TP for those skills! Big ol' slap in the face for the vets). Green rings were negated a while back. Promotions are pretty much the only thing you really gain for higher levels.
It's not hard to kill freeps, unless you think you're supposed to be able to charge into EC and pull the entire place and still get that kill. Which BAs and wargs might as well be able to do anyways with MT and HIPS at their disposal.

First of all, the first sentence that I loled at was that WL's, defilers, and spiders have an easy job killing 2 freeps at once. That is simply not true. You also said that those classes could take on 3 freeps at once (assuming they aren't tactical classes) with ease. This is also very far from the truth. The most common thing I see in the moors on Riddermark is a champ and a minstrel taking on 5 or 6 creeps and winning.

Does that make hunters balanced in the moors? Nope but does that make you statements about creepside being easy-mode true? No.

Second of all you criticized my arguments, well... I didn't make any arguments. I just stated that you were exaggerating how easy it is creep-side. Maybe at rank 12 with every skill and fully decked out traits you could dominate the 'Moors against some greenie freeps. This is not the case for the very large majority of creepers.

Dear Freeps with Freep Goggles, take them off.

Dear Creeps with Creep Goggles, take them off.



Can creeps win 1v2 or 1v3+? Yes, if the freeps are bad and the creep is pro.

Can freeps win 1v2 or 1v3+? Yes, if the freeps are pro and the creeps are bad.



All of this is soooo highly class dependent, as well as player-skill level dependent. Making any generalizations either way is extremely foolish and shows an agenda. Even as a hunter, I've fought 1v3 greenies and won only because they didn't carry CC pots. I've also watched a reaver/defiler group fight 7 terribad freeps and beat them. I've watched a pro BA kill a cappy with 2 hunters. I've been a part of a group of 3 freeps who fought 10-11 really bad creeps and came out on top. Like I said, it is so highly dependent on the situation, the skill, the rank, and the knowledge of players that to make any generilzation is foolish.


This is a hunter thread. Do hunters struggle in the Moors? Yea, they do. Anyone who disagrees hasn't played a hunter out in the Moors away from the zerg. Any class is easy if you can hug NPCs or other PvPers. If you base your assessment of the hunter purely based on ability to hug a zerg, then you and I will have to agree to disagree on how to assess a class.

Originally Posted by all creeps that ever played

Hunters are balanced because a minstrel can blow me up.

This is how the hunter argument always ends.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

First of all, the first sentence that I loled at was that WL's, defilers, and spiders have an easy job killing 2 freeps at once. That is simply not true. You also said that those classes could take on 3 freeps at once (assuming they aren't tactical classes) with ease. This is also very far from the truth.

Neither of which I actually said. Read the quote. We were talking about surviving 3, not killing 3: WLs, defilers, and spiders have an easy job with this. Funny story: I saw a group of 4 (clearly) noob freeps trying to take down one, yes one, r7 WL who I know for a fact has r5 audacity. Took them so long a warg pack happened along and wiped them all. I'm not talking about killing, I'm talking about survivability -- the thing hunters actually have a problem with. As to your second quote, I'll let my original quote speak for itself. I was talking about BAs, and it's obvious enough.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Have you never seen a BA pop moving target, Uruk heal if needed, and kite freeps to death? Get out of your hole man. A couple on my server (Daddyofglee, Tingur, Westmiss if you happen to know gladden pvpers) can take on 3 freeps fairly well, and that "fairly" turns into "with ease" if none of those freeps are a tact class.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

The most common thing I see in the moors on Riddermark is a champ and a minstrel taking on 5 or 6 creeps and winning.

Does that make hunters balanced in the moors? Nope but does that make you statements about creepside being easy-mode true? No.

Way to say "these classes are OP so all creeps should be too." No. Devs should nerf champs/minstrels, not boost creepside just because of two overpowered freep classes. That's not fixing the issue, it's making it worse.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

Second of all you criticized my arguments, well... I didn't make any arguments. I just stated that you were exaggerating how easy it is creep-side. Maybe at rank 12 with every skill and fully decked out traits you could dominate the 'Moors against some greenie freeps. This is not the case for the very large majority of creepers.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across so condescending at first. My apologies.
If "the very large majority of creepers" is referring to low ranked creeps, that changes things. I don't think low ranked creeps should win against any freep unless that freep has below average to average gear. Just as I think no freep with average gear should be winning against high ranked creeps. I don't expect my r2 weaver to kill experienced freeps just by jumping them. Right now, hunters with excellent, top notch gear are having trouble surviving at all, solo in the moors, even against r6 or 7 creeps. There is no high ranked creep or well-geared freep class that has a similar problem. That is my point.
Let greenies fight greenies, let the experienced fight themselves. Creeps shouldn't be able to just roll a new class and compete with skilled freeps right away. There should be SOME work at least, even if you already get a red ring and can buy your skills.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Dear Creeps with Creep Goggles, take them off.

No Creep goggles here. I assure you.


I know youre a good hunter, Sey and i respect your opinion on the class. If you dont mind, tell me specifically what you think that the Hunter class needs atm in regards to the Moors.

One skill i really dislike myself is Hunters Art. Definitely needs to be an immediate skill or maybe just a toggle, idk...

Originally Posted by Bond007

Neither of which I actually said. Read the quote. We were talking about surviving 3, not killing 3: WLs, defilers, and spiders have an easy job with this. Funny story: I saw a group of 4 (clearly) noob freeps trying to take down one, yes one, r7 WL who I know for a fact has r5 audacity. Took them so long a warg pack happened along and wiped them all. I'm not talking about killing, I'm talking about survivability -- the thing hunters actually have a problem with. As to your second quote, I'll let my original quote speak for itself. I was talking about BAs, and it's obvious enough.



Way to say "these classes are OP so all creeps should be too." No. Devs should nerf champs/minstrels, not boost creepside just because of two overpowered freep classes. That's not fixing the issue, it's making it worse.


Sorry, I didn't mean to come across so condescending at first. My apologies.
If "the very large majority of creepers" is referring to low ranked creeps, that changes things. I don't think low ranked creeps should win against any freep unless that freep has below average to average gear. Just as I think no freep with average gear should be winning against high ranked creeps. I don't expect my r2 weaver to kill experienced freeps just by jumping them. Right now, hunters with excellent, top notch gear are having trouble surviving at all, solo in the moors, even against r6 or 7 creeps. There is no high ranked creep or well-geared freep class that has a similar problem. That is my point.
Let greenies fight greenies, let the experienced fight themselves. Creeps shouldn't be able to just roll a new class and compete with skilled freeps right away. There should be SOME work at least, even if you already get a red ring and can buy your skills.

I pretty much agree with everything in the above post other than you thinking my comment made it seem as though I think creeps should be champ/mini-like, that was not the intent. Riddermark has a smallish PVP it seems so maybe I need more experience around higher ranked creeps to see what rank 10+ can do.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

I pretty much agree with everything in the above post other than you thinking my comment made it seem as though I think creeps should be champ/mini-like, that was not the intent. Riddermark has a smallish PVP it seems so maybe I need more experience around higher ranked creeps to see what rank 10+ can do.

Yup, I think we're in agreement I guess I just needed to clarify what I truly meant by some things I said. Re-reading your post I can see that your intent wasn't to claim that creeps are OP, just that they're not easy mode. Which I would agree with wholeheartedly.
I also wanted to add in this little tidbit as well: I do realize that getting a creep to r9+ is much harder than getting a freep top-notch gear and training yourself with it (after all, you have 75 levels to get a handle on it at the very least), but I guess that's sort of a "necessary evil" with how LOTRO PvP is set up. It's not the niftiest set up, and kinda rough on the edges on some parts. Anyways, enough with me going off on non-hunter tangents. Back to discussion I go.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

No Creep goggles here. I assure you.

If you say so.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

tell me specifically what you think that the Hunter class needs atm in regards to the Moors.

One skill i really dislike myself is Hunters Art. Definitely needs to be an immediate skill or maybe just a toggle, idk...

No reason to brainstorm or come up with ideas I think are good. Our dev is unresponsive, understandably, and clearly does not play a hunter in PvP or anywhere for that matter. I'd love to see ZC get a job assignment of playing his hunter class in the Moors for 4 hours. /eye_opener

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

No reason to brainstorm or come up with ideas I think are good. Our dev is unresponsive, understandably, and clearly does not play a hunter in PvP or anywhere for that matter. I'd love to see ZC get a job assignment of playing his hunter class in the Moors for 4 hours. /eye_opener

As you wish...

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

No reason to brainstorm or come up with ideas I think are good. Our dev is unresponsive, understandably, and clearly does not play a hunter in PvP or anywhere for that matter. I'd love to see ZC get a job assignment of playing his hunter class in the Moors for 4 hours. /eye_opener

The problem itself lies in our class system. The way our CC works makes it easy to get out off and through the fact that the only veritable class role is DMG this took a real hit, while making us way more gear dependent.
A champions 3k bubble, stays a 3k bubble, a Minstrels 3k heal stays a 3k heal. These skills are roughly independent from your gear or change marginally when you add your stats up. With audacity bubbles, heals etc. help even more since the DMG is reduced for everybody.

Now when geared up properly, things are looking way more balanced than now. I am still missing my First Age which would net me about 17% more DMG. Still I believe it is NOT the right thing to make one class so damn gear dependent in the moors. Very good geared hunters (few of them around) can withstand and dish out a lot. Any average gear hunter will suffer way more than any other class out there.