Thread: Warden Threat

I haven't played enough after the update to test aggro generating skills.

I do however know that I didn't use agg much, but I did use it now and then. My question is aggro swapping. I did lightning wing and shawdow wing many times and had no issue's swapping aggro then, but I used aggression to get it quick as needed. What do we use now? How will it work now?

I have yet to play around with it, but at some point I will grab a gaurd to do some aggro swapping test runs and see what I can do now before going back to a spot where I need to do it.

Originally Posted by Chanah

I don't see it as especially logical that longer gambits should produce more threat - that works against gameplay mechanics..

I meant logical in the sense of logic from the perspective of someone who does not play a warden (Orion) Me and you know that forcing wardens into long gambits to produce threat isn't going to work well, but we can still deal with it if we use our masteries.

Only problem for me is that I can no longer tank until I reach level 70 because I no longer have EoB, resolution or exultation of battle. I get to play at weekends, sometimes, so I'll be hitting level 70 sometime next year. And I have no idea what lower levels are supposed to tank with. Goad was bad even when it did 3x threat, now it does 0.5x, war cry does nothing at all, and will be fixed shortly but it will definitely still be in a state of nerf.

Originally Posted by Iluth

I meant logical in the sense of logic from the perspective of someone who does not play a warden (Orion) Me and you know that forcing wardens into long gambits to produce threat isn't going to work well, but we can still deal with it if we use our masteries.

Only problem for me is that I can no longer tank until I reach level 70 because I no longer have EoB, resolution or exultation of battle. I get to play at weekends, sometimes, so I'll be hitting level 70 sometime next year. And I have no idea what lower levels are supposed to tank with. Goad was bad even when it did 3x threat, now it does 0.5x, war cry does nothing at all, and will be fixed shortly but it will definitely still be in a state of nerf.

It may help to let us know what level you are currently at.

Please tell me this thread is a joke.
Warden threat has never been easier I'm holding threat off a champ who does 3.5k DPS single target from the word go.

Have to agree with Spanky here. I've been looking around for a couple of days regarding Warden vs. Guardian threat generation since a few days ago I got completely emasculated by a warden while running LG dailies.

Right from the initial beginning of a fight, right though to the end whether it was single target or multiple mobs I never got nor maintained aggro from the warden in our group. The only way was using force taunts and I don't think I particularly stink at tanking/generating aggro either.

Originally Posted by Aoeworth

Have to agree with Spanky here. I've been looking around for a couple of days regarding Warden vs. Guardian threat generation since a few days ago I got completely emasculated by a warden while running LG dailies.

Right from the initial beginning of a fight, right though to the end whether it was single target or multiple mobs I never got nor maintained aggro from the warden in our group. The only way was using force taunts and I don't think I particularly stink at tanking/generating aggro either.

Groan. Look at the dates on most of the posts, before Sparkys. This thread was started and built on pre update 6 and right as it came out. The bulk of it does not apply to the current build.

True enough. So what is the current take/feel from our warden tanking kindred on their threat generation? (rather than making a whole new thread)

Originally Posted by Aoeworth

True enough. So what is the current take/feel from our warden tanking kindred on their threat generation? (rather than making a whole new thread)

That Wardens and Guards should not be fighting each other for aggro, while wardens don't have to work at threat at the moment after they fire of a EoB they are having to work to make sure they are at least as sturdy as there guardians friends, if we are having to work at our aggro then surviablity tends to take a hit for a warden. Sure our threat is over the top atm but it is not like a warden can then go afk while the dpser take down the mob.

As for aggro swopping again that is not a issue, just toggle threat stance and hit engage you will have the mob locked onto you, as long as the warden don't use any more aggro grabbing skills but then that would be true if you was swopping aggro with another guard i would imagine. We have even used that at a start of a fight with a warden using EoB then letting the tank take aggro and the warden switching to dps, and the hunter etc could then pretty go all out on the boss as the guard would have a nice aggro lead which has proven handy if we got no burglers online.

Long story short if a warden wants a guard to have aggro he can have it, but to fight for aggro with a warden then the guard will always lose, but then again it should be agreed apon who is main tank because fighting for aggro is counter productive to raiding or fellowships.

Originally Posted by SpankyDom

Please tell me this thread is a joke.
Warden threat has never been easier I'm holding threat off a champ who does 3.5k DPS single target from the word go.

Not a joke at all....I can't seem to hold threat on much of anything but a single boss that I grab first and get some threat built up on. What rotation are you using? I'm desperately trying to find some fix but none of the old threat skills work at all. If my champ friend gets aggro....forget about it, ill never get it back no matter what I have been trying.

Originally Posted by TroyW

Not a joke at all....I can't seem to hold threat on much of anything but a single boss that I grab first and get some threat built up on. What rotation are you using? I'm desperately trying to find some fix but none of the old threat skills work at all. If my champ friend gets aggro....forget about it, ill never get it back no matter what I have been trying.

1. You pull using a body pull or javelin skill (if the champ pulled, ignore this battle and try again on the next pull)
2. [33] Goad, should proc potency
3. [31][23][21] EoB
4. Battle Memory EoB
5. [22] Defensive Strike, should proc potency
6. 3[12][32] EoB
7. Battle Memory EoB

If you're fighting at least two things then you now have 8-10 HoTs going so you should be fine on survivability. You can start to build defenses, ramp up self heals, hit Conviction if there's incoming AoE damage, or just sit on your hands for a while.

Someone with the most recent estimates can correct me here, but after 4 EoBs tick out you be covered up to ~60k DPS. That gives that 3.5k DPS champ 17 seconds to catch up if you do absolutely nothing else to build threat.

Originally Posted by Nydorewyth

1. You pull using a body pull or javelin skill (if the champ pulled, ignore this battle and try again on the next pull)
2. [33] Goad, should proc potency
3. [31][23][21] EoB
4. Battle Memory EoB
5. [22] Defensive Strike, should proc potency
6. 3[12][32] EoB
7. Battle Memory EoB

If you're fighting at least two things then you now have 8-10 HoTs going so you should be fine on survivability. You can start to build defenses, ramp up self heals, hit Conviction if there's incoming AoE damage, or just sit on your hands for a while.

Someone with the most recent estimates can correct me here, but after 4 EoBs tick out you be covered up to ~60k DPS. That gives that 3.5k DPS champ 17 seconds to catch up if you do absolutely nothing else to build threat.

You need to take into account the time needed to build and execute those EoB's as well which is why I like to build up my first EoB outside of battle via Battle Preparation. Execute two EoB's back to back via Battle Memory and note the difference in seconds on Buffbars of their durations. Even back to back the animation takes time, my EoB's have a 2 second gap on Buffbars. Overall you're looking at about 12 seconds for that rotation meaning that 3.5k threat per second only actually occurs for 4 seconds. It's still a large chunk of threat but when you take into account the 28 seconds (rotation time+EoB duration) it covers it averages out to 2142 threat per second.

What this illustrates is that DPS has to slowly ramp up their DPS for the first 6-8 seconds so that the Warden can get a threat lead. This works well with classes that have a rampup time to achieve thier sustained DPS (Runekeepers particularly) but do watch out for Hunters who like to use Improved Focus right before entering combat. If a DPS'er has a 1st age and is geared the Warden will have to incorporate a fair amount of threat into their rotation to keep aggro.

My biggest issue is taking aggro if someone gets it before me. If I grab it from the get go, I almost never have any problems with threat and aggro what so ever.

But if someone (especially a champ) takes it before me then it takes forever for me to take it from him. And even then, it seems like the only way to effectively do it is by spamming EoB.

For general tanking i like to start (ignoring prep buffs):

battle prep:conviction
battle prep:EoB
Jav to get them looking at me and heading my way
Fire prep EoB
EoB again
Fierce Resolve
Defensive Strike
Dance of War (+Dance of War in battle memory for later)

If I ever have any real issues after opening with that, its with ranged mobs that did not get close enough to get snagged in the leeches.

I'm happy with AoE threat generation right now. I would like to see single target threat resolved. That would go along way towards rounding out the class.

Beyond that, I do agree that threat generation in general should be easier as to allow the class to self buff and heal. Or make the self buffs last longer so they don't have to be refreshed as often as to allow time for the constant threat generation.

I'm seeing some conflicting info on how much threat EoB is generating now. After testing it out today, with the TV trait and threat up legacy, EoB is roughly 30,000 damage worth of threat for me. Still very powerful IMO.

I'm currently 100% happy with warden threat now. I don't mind at all that EoB is the best for both single target and AoE. There really isn't a need to absolutely have everything tailor fit just to suit someone's fancy.

My take on Threat post Update 6(.1).

I've tanked the following since 6.1 (I've only played a couple of times since 6.1, my time is rather limited):

1 Skirmish Raid (Guardian in second Fellowship so I was not main tank, just a second tank).

1 Foundry Tier 2 Run (as main tank. Had 2 rune keepers, 1 captain, 1 hunter, and 1 burg).

1 Dargnahk Tier 2 Run (as tank. Had 1 hunter and 1 rune keeper).

1 Pits Tier 1 Run (as tank. Had 1 hunter and 1 rune keeper).

1 Fangorns Edge Tier 2 Run (as tank. Had 1 LM and 1 champion).

Not much, but I've done some. What I've noticed is that I am having no problem at all with multi mob pulls. For almost every pull (depending on what masteries are on CD, etc.) I pretty much start with Battle Prep. Shield Mastery followed by queuing up an EoB. Run in to the group while tossing JoDF, hit the Battle Prep'd EoB followed by a second EoB. A War Cry here and there is all I need to keep threat on these multi mob pulls. This was the same for each of the above runs. I actually found single target to be a little tougher though. I lost agro once on the first boss in Foundry for a moment. Resulting in the healer dying. We were able to finish it anyways though with self heals and spot heals from the Captain. The second boss I lost it for a few seconds as well. Took some getting used to (I don't do a lot of grouping so I was a little rusty). We got through it though. The last boss was very easy though. I was able to tank both bosses without losing agro on either of them. So it seems I have some work to do on my single target threat rotations.

The 3-man instances are a walk in the park. I routinely do them solo on tier 1 so it wasn't much of a challenge. I ran Pits and Darknagh (spelling?) with the same group I think. The RK was the same at least. The second player was a Hunter. I was able to self heal the majority of both instances while the RK focussed on DPS with the Hunter. RK died from a bad stun in Dargs AOE at the very end so I had to self heal through the last set of scaffolding. Easy enough. Used Never Surrender just in case but I don't think I needed it. Fangorns Edge with the LM and Champ was pretty easy too. I lost agro to the LM on the first boss a couple of times. I think because the three of us were spread out too far for leaches to reach. Not sure. Once I established enough threat it was fine though.

To sum up my lengthy tid bit of information:

AOE/Multi Mob Threat= Easy stuff. Especially with Terrible Vissage traited and using a couple of EoB's to start.

Single Target Threat= Meh. I need some work on this front. Easy enough after a few minutes into the fight. The start seems kind of rough though with trying to obtain a good lead on agro. Should I consider even using an EoB or two? Even if it is a single target?

Originally Posted by horus418

I'm seeing some conflicting info on how much threat EoB is generating now. After testing it out today, with the TV trait and threat up legacy, EoB is roughly 30,000 damage worth of threat for me. Still very powerful IMO.

I'm currently 100% happy with warden threat now. I don't mind at all that EoB is the best for both single target and AoE. There really isn't a need to absolutely have everything tailor fit just to suit someone's fancy.

Hey Horus. Read my above post if you get a moment. You're saying EoB is good for single target threat as well. During single target fights I have not been using this. Just the Precise Blow line, some leaches, War Cry, etc. Should I maybe try EoB? Works like a King in multi mob fights. Single Target is where I am having issues though.

PB isnt what it used to be, single target use aggression and spear of virtue or two, toss in an EOB or two for extra measure if youd like. shouldnt have any probs after that, maybe even toss in a war cry

Originally Posted by Snoman73

PB isnt what it used to be, single target use aggression and spear of virtue or two, toss in an EOB or two for extra measure if youd like. shouldnt have any probs after that, maybe even toss in a war cry

Forgot about Agression.

Thanks!