Thread: Mini Bubble - Up 6

For my level 75 minstrel, the nerf came at exactly the wrong time, since monsters in Isengard and the Great River region seem to hit a LOT harder than anything before them, meaning that extra 700 morale was a big help. I'm adjusting, but I miss the extra protection, that's for sure.

PvP means nothing to me, since I'm 80% solo PvE, with a little group play with members of my small kinship when we can. And by group, I generally mean two players, sometimes three. So I hope there is no further reduction in minstrel effectiveness to pacify a group of players I have nothing to do with.

Originally Posted by Corienne

This idea that 1 min/1 rk healing a raid SHOULD be superior to 2 minstrels is ridiculous.

RK's are perfectly viable dps in a raid setting. Minstrels are not. Being able to burst dps through landscape mobs is very different from sustained raid dps. If you then replace the 2nd minstrel in a raid with a healing rk too, that dramatically reduces the role for minstrels in raids as long as the class does not have another raid option (which currently it does not now).

Saying that minstrels can buff isn't an answer. One of our primary buffs (BOW) was just nerfed and our buffs right now do not replace a captain or otherwise justify replacing another class.

I play to raid. PvMP is an occasional distraction for me. I have an RK too. If RK's are going to heal as well as minstrels and dps better in a raid setting, why would I keep playing my minstrel besides nostalgia? And what do I tell the other very good minstrel in our kin who doesn't have an alt? Sorry, you are out of luck I have to take an RK healer, you better start lvling an alt?

Terrible.

So RKs shouldn't be viable healers? Why not, instead of nerfing RKs, Minstrel damage gets increased to the point where they can hold their own in a raid setting, but in a way that makes a Minstrel/RK combo better than Minstrel/Minstrel or RK/RK duos.

I've only just started levelling up from 65 to 75, but I can say I'm badly missing the old Hammerhand. Used it often as a bit additional armour against heavy signatures or to run through a mob-invested area. No more such things, I discovered today against one of the Barnavon bosses that my measly 1k bubble was gone before I could get the next skill fired! No point in using it anymore besides the induction knockback protection.

Originally Posted by Therubor

So RKs shouldn't be viable healers? Why not, instead of nerfing RKs, Minstrel damage gets increased to the point where they can hold their own in a raid setting, but in a way that makes a Minstrel/RK combo better than Minstrel/Minstrel or RK/RK duos.

I think that was what Corienne was saying; not that RKs need nerfing (they don't) but that Minstrels could probably use either their dps or buffing skills improved to make them a viable choice as non-healers in a raid.

Originally Posted by xandax

The bubble is particularly useful when the whole group is taking heavy damage, and I do use it at those times so that I can heal others in the group, I'm not saying it isn't needed. I was just stating that the nerf to the bubble isn't that big of a deal when you've got a heal you can get off just as quick that can give you, essentially, the same benefit. Even before they nerfed it, RtS could easily heal for more than the bubble provided. And with a 0.3s induc, the difference in cast time is barely noticeable.

It's a bad comparison, RtS and the Bubble - RTS has an induction, even when traited, while bubble does not. That induction, while short in your eyes, means no casting while moving, period. And, the bubble has a preemptive damage value, such as in preparation for an AoE, that RTS can't match.

Originally Posted by xandax

You all really need to quit complaining about it, minstrels got a major buff with RoI and they slightly nerfed one of our skills with U6, not a big deal, adapt and play better.

I'm counting more than a slight nerf to one skill - bubble nerf, coda nerf, ballad of war nerf. We're back to having our codas remove group anthems and one minstrel's coda screwing up the other minstrel in the group. Finesse gone from some armor pieces. Broken armor set bonuses.

Telling folks to stop complaining strikes me as silly. There are good reasons to complain. Minstrels were messed up this update.

Originally Posted by Therubor

So RKs shouldn't be viable healers? Why not, instead of nerfing RKs, Minstrel damage gets increased to the point where they can hold their own in a raid setting, but in a way that makes a Minstrel/RK combo better than Minstrel/Minstrel or RK/RK duos.

Come on, you quoted my whole post but apparently didn't read it. I don't have a problem with RK's being excellent healers and I never said to nerf RK's but I object to making the RK+Minstrel raid healing combo superior to Minstrel/Minstrel as long as Minstrels have no other raid role. It is no different from hunters being PO'd about RK's being better DPS - once the raid has to replace a whole class with another class in order to optimize, with no other raid role option for the displaced, a whole class of folks get relegated to the sidelines. That's poor design.

Originally Posted by Corienne

This idea that 1 min/1 rk healing a raid SHOULD be superior to 2 minstrels is ridiculous.

RK's are perfectly viable dps in a raid setting. Minstrels are not. Being able to burst dps through landscape mobs is very different from sustained raid dps. If you then replace the 2nd minstrel in a raid with a healing rk too, that dramatically reduces the role for minstrels in raids as long as the class does not have another raid option (which currently it does not now).

Saying that minstrels can buff isn't an answer. One of our primary buffs (BOW) was just nerfed and our buffs right now do not replace a captain or otherwise justify replacing another class.

I play to raid. PvMP is an occasional distraction for me. I have an RK too. If RK's are going to heal as well as minstrels and dps better in a raid setting, why would I keep playing my minstrel besides nostalgia? And what do I tell the other very good minstrel in our kin who doesn't have an alt? Sorry, you are out of luck I have to take an RK healer, you better start lvling an alt?

Terrible.

I feel sorry for you but that´s exactly how the RK was designed, to be able to be a perfect main DPS class or a perfect main healing class. It´s good for the community that there are more than a single healing class. Consider it this way, if there are more healers you will be able, from time to time, to come with your alts instead of being forced to heal all the time with your main while other players switch characters.

Plus, live with it: before RoI, RKs were able to heal as well as minstrels and world didn´t end, every minstrel who wanted to heal on raids had spots on them. Just if RKs would heal worse than minstrels ... then they all would be DPSers, so why would in earth Turbine would create the class? A DPS squishy class who never heals because there is someone who will do it better than them?

Check it was said "as good healers", not "better healers". Minstrels are still stronger than RKs in some aspects, as fellowship healing and utility/buffs. Every raidleader will want at least a minstrel in their group (considering there are 9 classes and just 12 spots, it would be unfair for any class to have 2 guaranteed spots in a raid; should be 1 for each class and then the other 3 up to the raidleader or the fight setup). Why should you complain?

You will play your minstrel in raids because it´s needed. If you had no healing RKs and 2 minstrels in your raidforce, you will keep going with 2 minstrels. If you had 1 healing RK and 2 minstrels, well, you will rotate the same way everyone rotates. And mostly everyone i know has an alt so there wont be problems.

Just try to live things in everyones eyes before closing yours.

Originally Posted by Corienne

Come on, you quoted my whole post but apparently didn't read it. I don't have a problem with RK's being excellent healers and I never said to nerf RK's but I object to making the RK+Minstrel raid healing combo superior to Minstrel/Minstrel as long as Minstrels have no other raid role. It is no different from hunters being PO'd about RK's being better DPS - once the raid has to replace a whole class with another class in order to optimize, with no other raid role option for the displaced, a whole class of folks get relegated to the sidelines. That's poor design.

This is not true. Bad design would be that having TWO RKs would be better than 1 rk plus mins, or two mins. Which btw was what happened before Update 6, two minstrels was the best option. That is bad design. The class isn´t relegated. Just both main healing classes are being balanced. Minstrels still have a spot in raids.

Remember, raids are made by 12 players. And there are 9 classes. So it´s 1 of each class, but only 3 classes will have 2 of each. Would you call it unfair to the other 6 classes not to have aswell 2 slot? Lets make the raids with 18 classes for guaranteed 2 spots per class, right?

Brad you are really not reading my posts, again. I don't have a problem with RK healers. Our kin was the 2nd NA kin to beat shadow challenge and did it with a mins/rk healing combo, and I play and raid my RK alt too, so comments like "Just try to live things in everyones eyes before closing yours" just show your ignorance.

My point (again): 1rk/1minstrel shouldn't be superior to 2 minstrels - which is what some folks advocated earlier in this thread, which is why I posted. You know, comments like:

Originally Posted by msharding

Hopefully Turbine will get to the point where 1 Minstrel and 1 Rune-keeper healing raids together will be stronger than 2 of either. Until that time, tweaks here and there will work.

Originally Posted by Chris91

I think we are back to Pre-RoI balance were 1Mini/1RK was better than 2 of either, which is how it should be

You have yet to provide a single argument as to why 1rk/1 mins should be better than 2 mins. You should be fine with the two healing options being roughly equivalent, with no clear superior option.

And, prior to Update 6, there were certainly fights where 1rk/1min was a better healing combination than 2 minstrels. Even the RK i quoted above disagrees with your claim otherwise. My point is, that shouldn't be the norm or the development goal.

And you're just wrong about everyone having an alt. Some people prefer to concentrate on one class and play it very well instead of playing 5 less well. But, whether or not people have alts shouldn't impact class design anyway. Otherwise, you end up with "don't worry if X class sucks for raiding, you always have your alt Y to play."

I wouldn't say that a mini/RK combo is necessarily superior to two minstrels or two RKs, but the mini/RK combo compliments one another very well, particularly with the RK changes acquired in Update 6.
I would, however, argue that the mini/RK combo will compliment each other more strongly than having two of the same class. Pre RoI, particularly during the BG days, pairing the two together worked very well. Post RoI I would have been reluctant to argue that. Two minstrels were generally quite strong and were (are still perhaps, because that's what people have grown accustomed to) often the preference for Orthanc.
With Update 6, however, I will very confidently say that the mini/RK combo should return to being very complimentary in all of Orthanc and future raids.
Each class has their strengths and weaknesses. It's for that reason that the combo will compliment one another more strongly than having two of the same class.
That said, clearly, Orthanc and future raids can be done and will be done with two of the same class (either two minis or two RKs, though the latter has generally been the less popular option).
I hope to see more kinships experiment with the RK/mini combo, because it's been quite unfortunate to see the majority of kinships just running two minstrels for the vast majority of Orthanc, given the choice. While I'm sure minstrels will not complain about that fact, RK healers (i.e. those that either prefer to heal or don't have a DPS build) have likely found themselves the less popular choice up until now which is a tough spot to be in. Having said that, I am not proposing that all kinships displace their minstrels in favor of an RK/mini combo, but that, as Bradegor mentioned, raid leaders should be more willing to rotate their healers (whether RK or mini) into raids.

Originally Posted by Corienne

My point (again): 1rk/1minstrel shouldn't be superior to 2 minstrels - which is what some folks advocated earlier in this thread, which is why I posted.
...
You have yet to provide a single argument as to why 1rk/1 mins should be better than 2 mins. You should be fine with the two healing options being roughly equivalent, with no clear superior option.

Well, on any MMO the idea when you develop classes is to have them balanced, so ideally, every class should be needed and wanted. Every class should be "special" and bring something unique and different. That´s why for 2 healers, a combo of two classes should be superior to playing just one class twice (hence showing the other class isn´t needed, nor so good). Same with let´s say 4 DPS spots: if there should be 4 DPS class, the idea is that playing one of each should be superior to playing 4 of the same class, or any combo not including one of the classes.

That´s why for me stacking brg dmg incoming debuffs is an error: they make worth to stack classes. Give just every class a clear reason to be there in a raid. Make it really worthy. And i mean EVERY class. So every class has somewhat guaranteed a spot, and there will be balance.

The same way, i will tell you that if there has to be 2 tanks, a combo of them (either guardian or warden) should be superior to 2 guardians or 2 wardens. Same story, same ending.

You can read on basically every MMO developer post/diary/whatever that what they look is class balance. It´s not an idea of mine. It´s a somewhat truth in the MMO universe. Take it or leave it, but it works this way.

Originally Posted by Corienne

And you're just wrong about everyone having an alt. Some people prefer to concentrate on one class and play it very well instead of playing 5 less well. But, whether or not people have alts shouldn't impact class design anyway. Otherwise, you end up with "don't worry if X class sucks for raiding, you always have your alt Y to play."

I´d agree with you ... if this was 2009. Lotro is a 5 years old game. You will master any class, and you will still have time to master another one. And depending on your gaming time, probably a 3rd one. And i´m talking about weeks/months of game playing on each class, more than enough time to master a class.

As i said before, every class must be worthy to have an assured spot on raids. All of them. What i mean is not every class needs to fill two main roles in a raid. That has been stated to be RK´s motto (and our squishiness is our price, not subperformance). What i meant is that if you want to have more than one role on raids and you dont want to play a RK, just make an alt (it won´t cut your masterness on the main class, and with time you will master the other class as plenty of players on this game have already done it) and play it. Do you want to heal/DPS and dont want to play a RK? Play a minstrel and a hunter/champion/burglar. There you go, your chances of playing on raids havent been cut.

What it would unfair to your class, or any, is that your main role was not as good as other class. Minstrels are top healers and their unique skills will make them worthy to have on raid, at least one. As it should be.

How convenient that your whole line of argumentation priviledges RK's, giving them 2 guaranteed raid spots (dps and healing). How is that balanced design exactly? As opposed to, say, blatantly favoring the class you happen to play? You are telling people that they should invest double the time and energy necessary (by your own admission months) into two classes just to have an equal shot at raiding as an rk. That makes a joke of any balance claim.

I tend to think that balance means that bringing in a minstrel or an rk to fill a healing spot will have roughly the same chance of success. Both heal well, if differently. But that's not what your arguing for. You're advocating making one raid spot better filled by a healing RK instead of it being equally fillable by a minstrel or an rk. Just give up your balance claim.

People without alts do exist. We have four in our regular raid crew. True story. And people who have been playing and raiding minstrels for years shouldn't suddenly have to start raiding a different class b/c raids are orienting to prefer the rk/min combination (or any other required class combination developed to cater to the flavor of the month).

Originally Posted by Corienne

How convenient that your whole line of argumentation priviledges RK's, giving them 2 guaranteed raid spots (dps and healing). How is that balanced design exactly? As opposed to, say, blatantly favoring the class you happen to play? You are telling people that they should invest double the time and energy necessary (by your own admission months) into two classes just to have an equal shot at raiding as an rk. That makes a joke of any balance claim.

An RK who wants to be a viable DPSer AND Healer at Orthanc T2 has to grind out 2 Orthanc Sets, make 2 completly different Sets of LIs (DPS Stone and Satchel, Healing Stone and Satchel)

How is that not investing double the time than making 1 set of LIs (Healing Weapon and Book), grinding out 1 armor set (yes if you don´t go Moors, a random 3rd age will just do fine as a Soloing-DPS Weapon for a Minstrel and you can just use your raiding book, as there are no DPS good Legacies for Books anyway)

That´s the real energy and work, regrinding LIs, maxing out your 2nd Ager, then 1st Ages after every Level cap increase
To be viable on 2 spots you have to do the work twice

Originally Posted by Corienne

I tend to think that balance means that bringing in a minstrel or an rk to fill a healing spot will have roughly the same chance of success. Both heal well, if differently. But that's not what your arguing for. You're advocating making one raid spot better filled by a healing RK instead of it being equally fillable by a minstrel or an rk. Just give up your balance claim.

There are 2 possibilities, when there are 2 classes competing for a spot:
-) One class is clearly superior to the other one, like Minstrels were clearly superior to RKs from RoI up to U6 - that isn´t balanced at all
-) The 2 classes are balanced, bringing any combination (1/1, or 2 of any) is viable, however because the classes are different, each can handle some situations better, some worse, therefore bringing 1 of each allows the raid to cover most situations best

Originally Posted by Corienne

How convenient that your whole line of argumentation priviledges RK's, giving them 2 guaranteed raid spots (dps and healing). How is that balanced design exactly? As opposed to, say, blatantly favoring the class you happen to play? You are telling people that they should invest double the time and energy necessary (by your own admission months) into two classes just to have an equal shot at raiding as an rk. That makes a joke of any balance claim.

Nope. That´s not what i´m saying. I said that every class should have a guaranteed spot. This does mean that RK abilities should be unique enough to desire to have at least one in the raid. And btw, the time and effort needing to prepare a RK to both DPS and healing to its maximum is twice the time you will invest in other character. Plus, RKs pay for this ability to have two roles by being the squishiest class of all them.

Originally Posted by Corienne

I tend to think that balance means that bringing in a minstrel or an rk to fill a healing spot will have roughly the same chance of success. Both heal well, if differently. But that's not what your arguing for. You're advocating making one raid spot better filled by a healing RK instead of it being equally fillable by a minstrel or an rk. Just give up your balance claim.

Nope. I said that before U6 it was better to have 2 minstrels rather than 1 mins/1 RK, and way bette than 2 RKs.That was unbalancing. After U6 2 rks are viable, 2 minstrels are viable and 1 minstrel 1 rk compliment each other perfectly so it makes the sensible choice. That is how it should be. Oh, and before RoI this was happening aswell.

Again, stop putting in my mouth words i never said.

Originally Posted by Corienne

People without alts do exist. We have four in our regular raid crew. True story. And people who have been playing and raiding minstrels for years shouldn't suddenly have to start raiding a different class b/c raids are orienting to prefer the rk/min combination (or any other required class combination developed to cater to the flavor of the month).

I know they exist, at least on having just a toon with maximum level ( i doubt anyone will have just a single toon; they will have some lesser lvl alts, im fairly sure 99,5% of the server population will be here). I know ... one of them in our raidforce, well, he left. The thing is, that you were asking to fill two roles. I´m not forcing anyone to have two toons if they just want to fill one role. This is not wow where every class have at least two main roles, this is lotro and 7 of 9 classes have just one main role in raids. Champions can DPS or tank and RKs can DPS or heal. That is.

And i guess if a minstrel has been raiding for years with a raidforce, i´m sure he won´t be kicked out the raidforce due there is a class which is as good (not better) healing than him. In my raidforce i kept healing with my RK despite we all knew they were inferior healers; because i was healing before RoI. This doesn´t mean newcomers will know which spots will be free, nor that nowadays we feel more confident on the healing department having RKs healing than before.

You know, people is able to beat content even with not maxed class setups. Not everyone does Acid boss with 4 burglars, 1 guardian, 1 loremaster, 2 captains, 2 minstrels and 2 champions despite that one seems to be the best setup for a lightning acid boss kill. Not be afraid, you won´t lose your raid spot the same way RK healers didn´t (much) before, just be happy for all those raidforces who had healing RKs, because they will improve now their performance.

Originally Posted by Chris91

An RK who wants to be a viable DPSer AND Healer at Orthanc T2 has to grind out 2 Orthanc Sets, make 2 completly different Sets of LIs (DPS Stone and Satchel, Healing Stone and Satchel)

How is that not investing double the time than making 1 set of LIs (Healing Weapon and Book), grinding out 1 armor set (yes if you don´t go Moors, a random 3rd age will just do fine as a Soloing-DPS Weapon for a Minstrel and you can just use your raiding book, as there are no DPS good Legacies for Books anyway)

That´s the real energy and work, regrinding LIs, maxing out your 2nd Ager, then 1st Ages after every Level cap increase

To be viable on 2 spots you have to do the work twice

Let's see - My minstrel currently has 3 fully leveled legendary books and 2 weapons. For OD, I had 4 books and 2 weapons. If as an RK you are only making 2 stones and 2 bags, then you're doing less work. So, you lose that point.

For armor, RK's and Mins both have to grind out different sets depending on what they do. It's a wash, except that the RK class is designed to get to actually do raid level dps. Mins get to grind out our lousy armor sets with set bonuses that are broken for little benefit except blowing up creeps in da moors. As a minstrel, I'd be perfectly happy to grind out that dps set if it would actually enable me to be a viable dps class in a raid. But it won't. So if you want to whine about having to do work to be raid ready, you won't get much sympathy. You could just as easily choose to specialize in just dps or healing, do half the work and still get to raid.

And, most importantly, you don't have to level the character twice or get 2 complete sets of gear, which is where the real time investment is. I'm sure your rk wears some of the same jewelry and other items for both roles, too, even if you do switch out all 6 pieces of armor, which I doubt.

You forgot the 3rd possibility: No clear advantage for either class so any combination of healers will work. Apparently that level of balance is against some delicate RK sensibilities.

You RK's keep harping about how clearly inferior RK's were to Minstrels from RoI to U6 but that doesn't fit my experience. Taking an RK healer to Lightning or Shadow didn't stop us from beating challenge. If you really think there was that big a healing discrepancy, maybe that's an indication of varying skill levels among particular RK's.

Originally Posted by Corienne

You RK's keep harping about how clearly inferior RK's were to Minstrels from RoI to U6 but that doesn't fit my experience. Taking an RK healer to Lightning or Shadow didn't stop us from beating challenge. If you really think there was that big a healing discrepancy, maybe that's an indication of varying skill levels among particular RK's.

We RKs keep harping? there was a poll in the forums, where many non-rk, non-minstrels voted about prefered healer in their parties in RoI. Big majority said minstrel was.

One class having issues dont stop people do things. I know people who have done SHadow t2 with just 11 people ... does that mean that 1 player is useless?

But there were records (based on pics) on classes chosen for healing on the successful ToO kills (there is a thread about it). Close to 80% of the healers were minstrels. Maybe it´s not your experience, but everyone´s experience shows that clearly minstrels were a better class than RKs for a healing spot before U6. And of course, this doesnt mean it was unbearable. Even some raidforces had done things with a warden tank before U6 and let´s hope you won´t come here saying wardens and guardians were balanced .

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Nope. That´s not what i´m saying. I said that every class should have a guaranteed spot. This does mean that RK abilities should be unique enough to desire to have at least one in the raid. And btw, the time and effort needing to prepare a RK to both DPS and healing to its maximum is twice the time you will invest in other character. Plus, RKs pay for this ability to have two roles by being the squishiest class of all them.

So, which guaranteed spot should an RK have, the healing spot or the dps spot? You accuse me multiple times of putting words into your mouth but I am directly responding to your comments. You said an ideal raid should have the 2 distinct healing classes and 4 dps classes. That adds up to 2 guaranteed spots for RK's, your clearly favored class.

I answered the double prep argument above. So what if an RK is the squishiest class? Minstrels are squishy too.So are loremasters. So are hunters if they are set up for optimal DPS. Hell, our champ has less morale than I do when he is fully dps'd out. It's not like the difference is so stark that people will decide to NOT take RK's.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

I said that before U6 it was better to have 2 minstrels rather than 1 mins/1 RK, and way bette than 2 RKs.That was unbalancing. After U6 2 rks are viable, 2 minstrels are viable and 1 minstrel 1 rk compliment each other perfectly so it makes the sensible choice. That is how it should be. Oh, and before RoI this was happening aswell.

You were wrong when you said it was blanketly better to have 2 minstrels rather than 1 mins/1 rk. We've had raids that preferred at least 1 rk healer. All 3 boss challenge fights in BG preferred 1 rk and I remember folks posting about 2 rk's being the better healing option for the LT due to power and ranged CR.

What do you mean by sensible choice? Again, what scares you so much to not have a guaranteed RK heal spot in a raid?

Originally Posted by Bradegor

You know, people is able to beat content even with not maxed class setups. Not everyone does Acid boss with 4 burglars, 1 guardian, 1 loremaster, 2 captains, 2 minstrels and 2 champions despite that one seems to be the best setup for a lightning acid boss kill. Not be afraid, you won´t lose your raid spot the same way RK healers didn´t (much) before, just be happy for all those raidforces who had healing RKs, because they will improve now their performance.

I won't lose my raid spot b/c I'm the raid leader genius. I'm not arguing on this forum out of some fear that I'm going to have to stop raiding. You continue to make assumptions about my motivation and background that make you look silly.

What I will respond to is this misguided notion that RK healers have to be guaranteed a healing raid spot in order to produce the optimal raid set up. That is not balanced nor is it good design to rewrite the basic raid makeup after 5 years. Groups that continue to raid minstrels b/c that is their class makeup shouldn't be penalized.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

We RKs keep harping? there was a poll in the forums, where many non-rk, non-minstrels voted about prefered healer in their parties in RoI. Big majority said minstrel was.

One class having issues dont stop people do things. I know people who have done SHadow t2 with just 11 people ... does that mean that 1 player is useless?

But there were records (based on pics) on classes chosen for healing on the successful ToO kills (there is a thread about it). Close to 80% of the healers were minstrels. Maybe it´s not your experience, but everyone´s experience shows that clearly minstrels were a better class than RKs for a healing spot before U6. And of course, this doesnt mean it was unbearable. Even some raidforces had done things with a warden tank before U6 and let´s hope you won´t come here saying wardens and guardians were balanced .

Popularity contests and general opinion polls are rarely accurate measurement tools of much more than opinion, which is often not based upon fact. In many cases, undermanning content is preferred over 12 people if that 12th person is going to wipe the raid. We saw that plenty of times within the BG LT fight with folks who couldn't kite, DB with folks who couldn't face the right direction, Poison with folks who couldn't move accordingly, etc etc. Shadow T2 isn't that hard, the trash pulls are tougher than the non-challenge boss anyway.

And I think your bias is showing in your interpretation. Minstrels outnumbered RK healers initially b/c minstrels were the only healer class in the game for years. It took time for RK's to catch up and many (dare I say most) of the people initially attracted to the class were interested in blowing things up, not healing. Based upon when those polls occured, one should expect to see minstrels outnumbering RK's and generally preferred - people prefer what they know.

Come on, there are RK's on the forums saying that RK's are >= Minstrels now. And I'm inclined to agree. Between Minstrel bugs and nerfs + RK improvements in u6, RK's are probably the better healing class for most content right now (I'm having a tough time coming up with an example of where a minstrel would be favored). I'm seeing it now as I compare my top geared minstrel with my significantly lesser geared RK. That isn't balanced.

Originally Posted by Corienne

So, which guaranteed spot should an RK have, the healing spot or the dps spot? You accuse me multiple times of putting words into your mouth but I am directly responding to your comments. You said an ideal raid should have the 2 distinct healing classes and 4 dps classes. That adds up to 2 guaranteed spots for RK's, your clearly favored class.

Answer: both. But they shouldn´t be needed at the time. RKs can bring special things no matter which role they have. As i said there shouldn´t be guaranteed 2 spots for any class. But you keep moaning about how minstrels would lose such 2 guaranteed spots, your clearly favored class. While what i say is that playing one healing RK plus one minstrel is totally fine and should be balanced over any other combo. Not like it was before Update 6, where MAJORITY of successfull raidforces used 2 minstrels.

And again: no DPS class will bring more than a burglar so no RK should have a guaranteed DPS spot if there is a burglar around, except maybe on some special fights (like shadow) where in anyways hunters would be prefered due much better burst. But still, bringing a lonely RK DPS means you´re adding some things other classes won´t have, in an ideal world.

Originally Posted by Corienne

You were wrong when you said it was blanketly better to have 2 minstrels rather than 1 mins/1 rk. We've had raids that preferred at least 1 rk healer. All 3 boss challenge fights in BG preferred 1 rk and I remember folks posting about 2 rk's being the better healing option for the LT due to power and ranged

I didn´t say it´s blanketly better. I just check facts. Facts say that minstrel is the preferent healer of choice in RoI despite it wasn´t that much before RoI. Minstrel got awesome buffs in RoI while RK healers didnt. People is smart: if one class is better than other, they will tend to use it more. Burglars weren´t that popular before RoI, nor champion tanks. The game evolves and adapts. Still, is good that devs try to keep every class useful and needed on every raid, at least one.

I wholehearthed agree in BG times RKs were as good as minstrels. Maybe 2 RKs were better in LT but without minstrels there wouldn´t be dread wipes and it would be 2 less IC rezzes ...But again, issues with unbalancing came after RoI. Looks like we´re coming back to the times where both classes are as good for filling spots.

Originally Posted by Corienne

What I will respond to is this misguided notion that RK healers have to be guaranteed a healing raid spot in order to produce the optimal raid set up. That is not balanced nor is it good design to rewrite the basic raid makeup after 5 years. Groups that continue to raid minstrels b/c that is their class makeup shouldn't be penalized.

I´m not sure which is your idea of balance classes. I´m not saying that any class has to get a guaranteed spot. I´m fairly sure RKs dont have it, as people has already beaten ToO without using RKs so i doubt things have to change. I just say (i´m starting to get tired about you not wanting to understand it) that raiding should be almost as difficult using RK healers or minstrels. Not harder if you miss one class. ToO before U6 with 2 RK healers ... well, i doubt any serious raidforce have gone too far this way. While many did with 2 minstrels.

I will say the opposite: groups that continue to raid RK helers b/c that s their class makeup shouldnt be penalized again like they were last 6 months.

Oh, and about RK healers being better than minstrels ... facts? Minstrels still are better fellowship healers than RKs. Minstrels bring WAY better utility to the fellowship to RKs. RKs just have now better single target healing ... as before RoI, btw. They are different, they compliment very well ... i see you´re the only one to have problems with RKs being balanced again with minstrels. I bet you prefered things to be like before, with minstrels being clearly the best healing class and the prefered one. (btw, RKs appeared 4 years ago, i doubt there will be more minstrels than RK healers due game age... actually, i remember to read that there were more RK players than minstrel players).

Corienne there isn't enough +rep in the world, I have nothing I can add to your points.

But to make it simple for the hard of thinking:

Rune-Keeper = 2 raid roles (healing or DPS)
Minstrel = 1 raid role (healing)

Rune-Keeper = 2 equipment sets (healing and DPS/soloing)
Minstrel = 2 equipment sets (healing and soloing)

I'm not really sure why our lovely RK guests are having a problem with allowing Minstrels the same number of possible roles as they ... other than protectionism. But surely they wouldn't be that petty, would they?

How has this gone from us loosing our bubble to RK vs Minnie?

I cried and QQ'd in the RK forums about the inequality between both classes (having both myself). U6 has turned RK's into awesome healers and I'm really glad the class has been revised however RK's have always been able to fulfill TWO roles as designed. Minstrels do not have that luxury. We're healers or a charity lol burst dps class and AoW+AoP do not make up for it.

So please let's return to the topic on hand and stop derailing.

Originally Posted by Binidj

Corienne there isn't enough +rep in the world, I have nothing I can add to your points.

But to make it simple for the hard of thinking:

Rune-Keeper = 2 raid roles (healing or DPS)
Minstrel = 1 raid role (healing)

Rune-Keeper = 2 equipment sets (healing and DPS/soloing)
Minstrel = 2 equipment sets (healing and soloing)

I'm not really sure why our lovely RK guests are having a problem with allowing Minstrels the same number of possible roles as they ... other than protectionism. But surely they wouldn't be that petty, would they?

I don´t have a single prob about minstrels being able to DPS well -apart from considering that such high level of buffing on a DPS is bad, check burglars but minstrels is still better. I´m just talking about balance and the chance of having what the devs wanted to give us: to be able to work as main healers with similar weapons.

Oh, btw, it´s not this way. Rune-keeper = 3 equipment sets (soloing/Moors -lightning-/healing/raid DPS -fire-) while minstrels is 2 (soloing/Moors and healing).

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Answer: both. But they shouldn´t be needed at the time. RKs can bring special things no matter which role they have. As i said there shouldn´t be guaranteed 2 spots for any class. But you keep moaning about how minstrels would lose such 2 guaranteed spots, your clearly favored class.

That is some epic back-pedaling you do, topped off with just a tough of disingenous. I never 'moaned' about minstrels not getting 2 guaranteed spots. I've said the opposite multiple times - RK's and Minstrels should both be able to fulfill the healing role in raids, without preference given to either or some combination that forces the raid to take 1 of each.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

While what i say is that playing one healing RK plus one minstrel is totally fine and should be balanced over any other combo. Not like it was before Update 6, where MAJORITY of successfull raidforces used 2 minstrels.

Right, you want a guaranteed healing spot for RK's, not caring that doing so hurts the established minstrel healers.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

And again: no DPS class will bring more than a burglar so no RK should have a guaranteed DPS spot if there is a burglar around, except maybe on some special fights (like shadow) where in anyways hunters would be prefered due much better burst. But still, bringing a lonely RK DPS means you´re adding some things other classes won´t have, in an ideal world.

If you think burgs are so unbalanced, go troll their forums. It's really clear by your comments that you don't play a minstrel or understand the class.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Oh, and about RK healers being better than minstrels ... facts? Minstrels still are better fellowship healers than RKs. Minstrels bring WAY better utility to the fellowship to RKs. RKs just have now better single target healing ... as before RoI, btw. They are different, they compliment very well ... i see you´re the only one to have problems with RKs being balanced again with minstrels. I bet you prefered things to be like before, with minstrels being clearly the best healing class and the prefered one. (btw, RKs appeared 4 years ago, i doubt there will be more minstrels than RK healers due game age... actually, i remember to read that there were more RK players than minstrel players).

You do realize that you don't actually offer facts, right? Instead, you just make blanket assertions about who is the better healer is different situations.

Why are minstrels better fellowship healers still? I'll concede that RK's are better single target healers (they were before too but whatever), so RK's are ahead there.

RK's are also better at damage absorption for group or individual- Improved our fates entwined = less 10% for the group. Do not fall to X absorbs nearly 3k damage and then adds mitigation. Word of exaltation got buffed to absorb 4652 morale + prevent any incoming critical damage.

Mins bubble is on a longer timer for a fraction of the damage and doesn't offer any additional benefits. Inspire fellows negates 1% of incoming damage (the 3% set bonus is broken). Even if the 3% did work, minstrels would still lag far behind.

RK utility right now is better - minstrels have to choose between using our best heal (coda) or keeping anthems up on the group, we can't do both. We get 1 tale, which is a weak idome adding 71 vit or 85 fate/will to the group. BoW was nerfed. Most minstrel anthems aren't that useful anyway. Prowess is the one good one. CtG and SoA are situationally useful with long cd's.

RK's now get a mini oathbreakers in That Which, a persistent 5% damage mark that increases everyone's damage on the target with Fall to X, the healing set bonus makes AFE add a huge amount of crit to everyone in the group. Improved rune sign of storm adds another 1200 crit and 4% critical chance to a single target (while at the same time healing the target for more than the minstrel's rough equivalent: SoS). Mending verse buffs that targets masteries.

With this new update, minstrels have also lost their status as the better group healer. Epic for the ages takes 2.5 to cast just like inspire fellows does, heals most in the group for almost as much as an inspire fellows while also giving a huge heal (bigger than a bolster) to the primary target. EftA is also 200 less power than inspire fellows. Between that, the rock and the channelled heal, RK's now win group healing.

Even RK incombat res is better - 1/3 shorter cooldown and shorter cast time.

Those are all facts. Hard numbers to show why RK's are quantifiably better. Your turn. What is a minstrel better at than an RK?

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Oh, btw, it´s not this way. Rune-keeper = 3 equipment sets (soloing/Moors -lightning-/healing/raid DPS -fire-) while minstrels is 2 (soloing/Moors and healing).

It doesn't really work this way. I carry around 2 bags of gear that I switch out as needed and imagine most RK's and minstrels do something similar, with more in the bank if they are willing to do the trips.

And people shouldn't be wearing 6 pieces of each set anyway when 5/1 or 4/2 offers better combinations, so there is no real reason to get 6 pieces except for completionism. As a minstrel I wear 2/2/2 when I want to crit build, I have a couple of different set ups for the moors depending on if I'm solo or grouped and my healing set up includes the 2/2/2 or the 5 set blue + 1 when the IF bonus wasn't broken.

BTW, the 5 set RK orthanc bonuses are considerably better than the minstrel bonuses (so my RK friends tell me) so if you really want to complain about getting multiple armor sets you won't get any sympathy. I'd just be happy for our blue and red line set bonuses to actually work and for yellow to not be the same as the draigoch set, effectively making it a complete waste of time to get.

The bubble barely changed. The effect can only really be seen at lower levels, where it was OP. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by Corienne

That is some epic back-pedaling you do, topped off with just a tough of disingenous. I never 'moaned' about minstrels not getting 2 guaranteed spots. I've said the opposite multiple times - RK's and Minstrels should both be able to fulfill the healing role in raids, without preference given to either or some combination that forces the raid to take 1 of each.

Right, you want a guaranteed healing spot for RK's, not caring that doing so hurts the established minstrel healers.

No healer should have a guaranteed raid spot, RKs included irregardless of whether the RK/mini combo works extremely well. Healers should be rotated in and out of raids out of fairness to everyone. If the RK prefers to heal, then they should be rotated in as a healer, with the understanding that they won't necessarily get a DPS spot when it's not their turn to heal. Likewise, if the RK prefers to DPS, then they should be rotated in with other DPS clases. I'm sure Bradegor doesn't truly mean that RKs should have a guaranteed healing spot - if he is stating that, then he's incorrect. Healers should be rotated in/out, irregardless of whether they are an RK or a minstrel.

Originally Posted by Corienne

That is some epic back-pedaling you do, topped off with just a tough of disingenous. I never 'moaned' about minstrels not getting 2 guaranteed spots. I've said the opposite multiple times - RK's and Minstrels should both be able to fulfill the healing role in raids, without preference given to either or some combination that forces the raid to take 1 of each.

You posted:
"If you then replace the 2nd minstrel in a raid with a healing rk too, that dramatically reduces the role for minstrels in raids as long as the class does not have another raid option (which currently it does not now)."


"why would I keep playing my minstrel besides nostalgia? And what do I tell the other very good minstrel in our kin who doesn't have an alt? Sorry, you are out of luck I have to take an RK healer, you better start lvling an alt?"

This clearly indicates moaning about losing one minstrel spot. Your words, not mines.

And futhermore, you write on your own post: "Right, you want a guaranteed healing spot for RK's, not caring that doing so hurts the established minstrel healers." ... isn´t that really contradictory? you´re doing it ... on the same post!

Originally Posted by Corienne

If you think burgs are so unbalanced, go troll their forums. It's really clear by your comments that you don't play a minstrel or understand the class.

Well, my minstrel isn´t 75 ... yet, but i do play a minstrel. I understand it very well. I have several minstrel friends who are awesome players and i listen to them carefully. I know what they can do and can´t. Which leads me to...

Originally Posted by Corienne

You do realize that you don't actually offer facts, right? Instead, you just make blanket assertions about who is the better healer is different situations.

Why are minstrels better fellowship healers still? I'll concede that RK's are better single target healers (they were before too but whatever), so RK's are ahead there.

RK's are also better at damage absorption for group or individual- Improved our fates entwined = less 10% for the group. Do not fall to X absorbs nearly 3k damage and then adds mitigation. Word of exaltation got buffed to absorb 4652 morale + prevent any incoming critical damage.

Mins bubble is on a longer timer for a fraction of the damage and doesn't offer any additional benefits. Inspire fellows negates 1% of incoming damage (the 3% set bonus is broken). Even if the 3% did work, minstrels would still lag far behind.

Let´s start with this -and bringing facts. Why are minstrels better group healers? Are you serious?

RK group heals:
-Rousing Words. Heals around 200 per second (with stone trait), 6 seconds channel, can be interrupted. Cooldown 20 seconds. If people stay in range during at least 5 seconds, they get a writ of health tier 1 on them. (around 300 every 5 secs for 30).
-EftA traited. Fellowship members close to the target of it get aaround 300-400 heal. 15 seconds cooldown.
Rune of restoration. Heals .. humm 55? morale every 5 seconds for around 30 seconds. Dies alot or usually is sunk at the floor. Reliability zero in most raid fights. 1,5 seconds casting. Around .. .5 secs CD i think.

(those numbers with around 50% outgoing healing)

Minstrel heals:
Major ballad, 136 heal, instant, spammable - 1s CD-(no CD).
Inspire fellows, ~830 morale, 5s CD, 2.5 induction.
Triumphant spirit, ~2500 morale. 10m CD (8 with gear). Instant.
Coda(harmony) 1000 damage/heal , (3 ballads up so around 4 secs casting).
Chord of salvation. Instan cast, heals a single target for 1200, AoE HoT for ~140 each 2 sec for 20 sec. 10 secs CD.
Fellowship's heart, 1000 initial, ~750 each 3 sec for 30 sec, 10m CD

(those numbers with around 46,5% outgoing healing, not including extra 15%)

... can you even compare? ROFL. Minstrels heal faster, more, and have more options than RKs. You´re still kings on fellowship heals - although we have closed the gap abit thanks to EftA trait.

On another note: the damage mitigation in OFE has been disminished, now it´s 8%. Oh, and takes 99 morale per second now on RK, although it doesn´t transfer damage anymore.

Originally Posted by Corienne

RK utility right now is better - minstrels have to choose between using our best heal (coda) or keeping anthems up on the group, we can't do both. We get 1 tale, which is a weak idome adding 71 vit or 85 fate/will to the group. BoW was nerfed. Most minstrel anthems aren't that useful anyway. Prowess is the one good one. CtG and SoA are situationally useful with long cd's.

...
This part really makes me believe you´re simply trolling the post. RK having better utility ... than minstrels? Seriously?

Let´s see.
RK healing. Can prevent around 2,5k damage from one Fire/Cold/lightning attack and then give some tact mit for some while. Can prevent one effect aswell, giving some resistance for seconds. Can power up a target´s damage/crit/miss chance for 30 seconds.
Minstrels on the other hand, put permanent stat (usually 71 vit and resistance which also gives 300 tact mit), tact mitigation ballads, add 10% fellowship dmg, and -10% attack duration, armour, evade which can be mantained during all the fight almost, apart from having fear (very useful with adaptation in trash pulls in ToO), CtG is used always on pulls, etc etc .... Can you compare? Seriously?

Originally Posted by Corienne

RK's now get a mini oathbreakers in That Which, a persistent 5% damage mark that increases everyone's damage on the target with Fall to X, the healing set bonus makes AFE add a huge amount of crit to everyone in the group. Improved rune sign of storm adds another 1200 crit and 4% critical chance to a single target (while at the same time healing the target for more than the minstrel's rough equivalent: SoS). Mending verse buffs that targets masteries.

First of all, healing legendaries give up really few room, you have to slot capstone, That Which and martial so no room for Fall to , that goes for DPS RKs. Im not counting set bonus as everyone has them, right? . Rune-sign heals 60 morale each 6 seconds for 30 ... so it´s a tiny heal and only really used as buff. That Which btw won´t last much as 1st dmg received takes the buff away. Its still the hot it was and it´s useful for that, the other part is way more situational. And yes, MV buffs ... 250 masteries! woot! It actually got nerfed, the +500 maximum morale was much better.

Originally Posted by Corienne

With this new update, minstrels have also lost their status as the better group healer. Epic for the ages takes 2.5 to cast just like inspire fellows does, heals most in the group for almost as much as an inspire fellows while also giving a huge heal (bigger than a bolster) to the primary target. EftA is also 200 less power than inspire fellows. Between that, the rock and the channelled heal, RK's now win group healing.

Read up for seeing numbers, heals 400 instead of 830 of inspire fellows ... hardly "for almost as much". Quantity and quality of minstrel group heals is far better than RK ones.

Originally Posted by Corienne

Even RK incombat res is better - 1/3 shorter cooldown and shorter cast time.

Ok, now i laugh. Healing is a reactive skill. Most of the times i put the rez buff (i will cast only one in any raid combat except in Saruman, btw, so shorter CD means nothing) and it never helps, never triggers. IC minstrel rez will work ALWAYS, at the time you want. There is not even a slight comparison between both of them. Minstrel IC rez is BETTER, period. I would switch RK one for yours any day, blindfold. Really, are you serious here or simply got hot and start posting like crazy? I doubt anyone who reads you will believe RK IC rez is better than minstrel´s.

Originally Posted by Corienne

Those are all facts. Hard numbers to show why RK's are quantifiably better. Your turn. What is a minstrel better at than an RK?

There you go, i wrote numbers directly from a minstrel mate and corrected the wrong stats you put. Minstrels keep bringing more and better utility to the raid group, minstrels keep being better group healers, have faster, more, shorter CD heals.
They have two big group heals (Triumphant and FS) over two inferior RK ones (they have shorter CD but in every fight there but Saruman you will use only one of each, so CD doesn´t matter much. All ToO fights are between 3 and 7 minutes, except Saruman, and considering you won´t use them at the beginning because it´s not needed and both RK ones need full healing attunement, this effectively makes everyone using their abilities once).

After changes in U6, RKs are simply better on ST heal thanks to GF -which is bugged atm, and won´t be that good soon- and got a big hit on power restoration, probably strongest RK healing point, putting it on par with minstrel, if not worse ( i still prefer the composure one). Actually and apart from power management, this now looks closer to pre RoI situation, apart from minstrel utility being buffed up.

Originally Posted by Thymelody

I'm sure Bradegor doesn't truly mean that RKs should have a guaranteed healing spot - if he is stating that, then he's incorrect. Healers should be rotated in/out, irregardless of whether they are an RK or a minstrel.

Indeed. What i feel is that now mintrels and RK are fully capable, and bringing any combo of them - mins/mins, RK/mins or RK/RK- won´t hindrance the raid´s performance, as it happened before U6 where practically noone dared to use 2 RKs for healing with no minstrel. I undestand this can frustrate minstrels but tbh they should be used to share spots with healing RKs as we´ve doing that for years, it was only last 6 months since RoI where things changed - and we RKs kept healing at our best in anyways, not the best doesn´t mean it wasn´t doable to heal as RK in RoI. It was.

Right now, after seeing what i can do in raids, i really notice the gap and the hindrances RK healers had before the patch. Now i have tools mostly for any situation despite i have to watch out my blue bar all the time and can´t even think about joining a raid fight without eating before. And i´m thanked to ZC for bringing us these tools (not the utility which hasn´t really improved that much, but the healing improvements, specially in spike damage where RK were a disaster and we all know ToO is all about spike damage).

The mini bubble was far from being OP and especially if you compare it to the RK bubble. If one wants to compare RK to Mini.. then RK is OP compared to Mini but personally I do not feel that any class is OP. Every class has its strengths and weakness. It's just that there is always someone who wants to make the Minstrel the underclass. Minstrels can switch roles just like the RK can. Many Minstrels such as myself never heal and only dps.. just like many RK's do. Now even the LM can heal small fellowships. The big difference between dps Mini and dps RK is that the RK can heal much better than a mini while dps traited. That doesn't really bother me since I never heal but it may bother others and I can understand why. Unlike th RK Minstrels can only do very well in either healing or dps if they are fully traited for one or the other.. otherwise they are average in both. I know many raid leaders who say that these days they prefer RK healers because they can do both dps and healing well unlike the Minstrel who can only do one or the other.. and that they also like some of the RK buffs, etc. To be honest I don't know a lot about the RK since I've never played one. There are still raid leaders who only prefer Minstrel healers and will never invite a Minstrel to dps. Fortunately I hardly ever encounter that problem since I am invited to most raids to dps because most are aware that I'm not a healing Minstrel. I'm a terrible healer, lol. People tend to die when I heal so I'll stick to dps for Minstrel (I'm not a Ettens Mini either). I do just fine as dps in all types of raids, including Saruman. I would love to see the bard have more dps abilities and i've no problem with having to go red traited only.. a true switch of roles since I will never heal anyway. However, I always keep Rally traited for emergencies and may occasionally drop WS to use a quick Triumphant Spirit. That's about it for me healing wise. :-)

I don't like this change. It has not made the game fun for me in any way.

We're minstrels. We're meant to heal (even ourselves when in WS). In regard to PvMP, just because the minstrel does not constitute an easy meal ticket, does not mean it is OP. I don't like that every orc and his warg can put unavoidable slow affects on me but life's not fair. It makes for a challenge.

The bubble nerf was unnecessary. I always thought it was actually weaker than it ought to be, to be useful.

Being nerfed for PvP reasons is really great ... not. Remember what the skill did before it was converted to a bubble in ROI. Every point of damage to moral was converted to 0,5 point damage to power. With minstrels power about 8-9k ... yeah right.

A 2k bubble was not great to begin with and certainly not too great an advantage in ToO T2 or any other pve content.
As a bubble it is now useless, thanks alot.

I don't really understand why the bubbles have been decreased to such a level that they are typically gone faster than it takes to use them, especially Gift of the Hammerhand with its 5 minutes cooldown. I sure don't know where a 1.2k morale buffer is "pretty darn good", it's the equivalent of one morale pot, only morale pots don't delay using other abilities.

Originally Posted by ALCESTER

Why oh why - they screw up Warden and now they decide to screw Mini too reducing the protective power of our bubble - this is mean and stupid.

What bubble? The one that's supposed to last 30 sec.? At not even 2k it was a joke, at barely more than 1k, stupid is light.
How many setback does it prevent?

Originally Posted by GrandCru

What bubble? The one that's supposed to last 30 sec.? At not even 2k it was a joke, at barely more than 1k, stupid is light.
How many setback does it prevent?

the setback is still 30s no matter if the bubble is there or not

Originally Posted by Valerian_Moonfire

Being nerfed for PvP reasons is really great ... not. Remember what the skill did before it was converted to a bubble in ROI. Every point of damage to moral was converted to 0,5 point damage to power. With minstrels power about 8-9k ... yeah right.

A 2k bubble was not great to begin with and certainly not too great an advantage in ToO T2 or any other pve content.
As a bubble it is now useless, thanks alot.

Where is the evidence that it was nerfed for PvMP reasons? Even if the bubble was removed completely, the class would still be ridiculously strong. Tbh, i rarely need to use the bubble when playing my Minstrel.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Where is the evidence that it was nerfed for PvMP reasons? Even if the bubble was removed completely, the class would still be ridiculously strong. Tbh, i rarely need to use the bubble when playing my Minstrel.

Dev diary said that it was not a pvmp issue, and stated that the higher morale of it was not needed, as for using it, normally in the moors or in a raid if i pull by accident, though even at 1.9k the bubble dont help with 3+ creeps focusing on me

It has gone from being a barely useful skill to one (in the 'moors) that is almost a liability because of its sluggish activation. It is still a little useful for power management when you're healing in PvE, though.

Originally Posted by Jimeih

It has gone from being a barely useful skill to one (in the 'moors) that is almost a liability because of its sluggish activation. It is still a little useful for power management when you're healing in PvE, though.

What? The skill is amazing. You don't activate it for the bubble, you activate it for the 30s knockback immunity.

You lot have genuinely forgotten what it's like to not have raid gear haven't you?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not QQing about the nerf, I'm just a bit annoyed by so many people who have forgotten how useful it can be when you aren't geared like a boss.