I always love the condescending and lazy "corrections" people make to other people's opinions, what an overused joke.
With the changes we have and are getting to creeps, a mini that can't heal in ws or heals 80% less will be either dropping out of ws ALOT and forfeiting fights or just dying quick and if you play both a minstrel and creep, you have to acknowledge this. If I remember correctly there's a number of additions to skills creepside that will lower inc healing on a freep. I would say wait to see how this weighs in on the class before you up and just remove a pretty large aspect of the minstrel and pvp, whether you think it's OP or not.
Isnt that the point they are shooting for? Easy kills and easy infamy and basing ALL their information of 1v1s (over exaggerated about the easy kills but it proves my point )
Ssupermann: I hate minis, they have satellite lazers
This "trusted source" knew about Warg and Weaver changes long before they were made public so yes... seriously, kiss your God Moding goodbye.
But worry not... there are still other classes that will allow you to faceroll your way to victory.
I usually just heal out of group on my mini and throw calls out, laughing as nobody pays attention to me and I collect 20-30 renown per kill out of WS and while keeping the zerg fueled.. 1 healing mini does more "damage" than 3 dps minstrels.
I'm a PvE player only. I *did* try PvP, because I really wanted to play a warg...they are in my opinion one of the coolest of enemies. I couldn't -get- anywhere, on Silverlode. I spent too much time dead to get my maps and do the daily quests to try and learn my class so I wouldn't be fodder the instant I left Grams.
Laugh at me all you like, really. I'm older, with bad vision and slow reflexes.
What I WANT to see in PvP? A period of time after character creation and that first login where the Green character is immune to attack and cannot attack other players, a Tutorial period that could be disabled with a checkbox like the intro quests. In that time you can do the quests and explore the map and get used to how your character plays. *Then* the immunity ends and you're free to go be as crazy as you want to be.
Maybe one full round of repeatable quests in duration, or "X" number of days. It'd make up for the lack of tutors out there too, even if all other players ignore you you would have time to figure out how not to be a utter noob.
War Speech is NOT purely a PVP stance-- every minstrel I know SOLOs in war speech.... The world does not revolve around PVP for a whole lot us.
Agreed a great deal.
I've been here since the very beginning, and I can count time spent in the Moors on one hand for both sides. It just doesn't thrill me to beat on other players as much as it does to take down a really hard boss.
And I do solo my Minnie in WS, but drop it to group. RK still survives as well as Minnie from what I've seen, playing, and gets more done DPS-wise.
I know I'll get flamed for this, but I have to agree with the OP. It is simply ridiculous that minnies can self-heal at 100% while in war speech. The only legitimate use for this in PvE is for solo leveling, and if you really need it to solo level then you probably don't have much of a clue what you are doing. In almost any other PvE context that involves grouping, a mins will either not need to self heal (because someone else is healing) or will not need to be in WS (because he or she is the main healer).
This is a significant balance issue in PvP that really doesn't make a significant difference to the viability of the class in PvE. As is, even a really really bad mins can absolutely destroy excellent creeps 1v1, and that is just not appropriate. A truly excellent minstrel can solo 3-4 creeps at once - I've seen it done many times. Now to those who say, well, mins die all the time in the Moors, I would reply that, yes, they die, but only when zerged in overwhelming numbers.
BTW for those who will flame me saying I don't understand minnies, I do have a 67 mins that I've played for more than three years. I was so put off by the OP'ness of the changes that Orion made with RoI that I decided not to play him any more.
BTW for those who will flame me saying I don't understand minnies, I do have a 67 mins that I've played for more than three years. I was so put off by the OP'ness of the changes that Orion made with RoI that I decided not to play him any more.
./signed
Or you could have just changed your playstyle and balladed mobs to death, as we had to pre-WS and not heal yourself. Just because you have a skill doesn't mean you have to use it.
I think minis finally got some love after after being shoved in a corner to make way for the flashier, more versatile RK. I don't care if the creeps QQ, and btw I rarely pvp, but the mini needs to be more than a snack, so not signed even for the moors.
It always puzzled me that my pve exp should be nerfed 'cause someone died in the moors.
OK, nerf minstrel self-heals in the moors, but why should I suffer? I haven't pvmped in RoI and I don't wanna to pvmp in RoI, 'cause I know that currently I have an unfair advantage over creeps 1v1.
But I definitely don't wanna SoA or pre-Lorien Moria back, I don't wanna that nightmare back, please
No fckin class should be able to heal AND DPS. Doesn't matter if PvE/PvP/whatever.
As mini is a healer it wouldn't effect PvE cuz I think noone here is using WS in TO.
I don't get it why a class should have abilities to heal/dps while kiting like a boss/immunity to CC like silence/feign death. With new PvMP set in U6 u'll be able to cure 5removable effects in 10sec.
Bring WS to pre RoI niveau with 80% reduced outgoing healing.
BTW: Didn't u start playing Mini as a HEAL-class?
I went into Urugrath on a 49 mini with a 51 hunter. We duo'd the troll boss. It was two 9k trolls and the 33k boss. Wanna know when I dropped war-speech? After both adds were dead and the hunter pulled aggro on the boss. We both just had quest gear, nothing special. No stat tomes, no hope/scrolls, no dp perks. Hunter was struggling for power most the fight. I never even used a power pot or was close to running out. I've only been playing the mini for about 4 days (someone else did most the leveling for me)
IF war-speech is nerfed, there are plenty of PvE reasons to justify it -- unless of course taking away godmode isn't acceptable.
I'd be fine reverting to the old penalties for warspeech healing while allowing us to heal others and ourselves both at a reduced rate, as long as they don't bring back the idiotic tail. That said, someone did make a good point upthread that our healing abilities are already nerfed by being traited redline to an extent that wasn't really the case before the most recent changes. So I'd probably be fine going back to a traitline penalty that increases in skald like in Moria, to a max of -50% (the SoA penalty, rather than the 80% MoM penalty), and perhaps starting at -20% or -25% when not traited in skald. maybe base -10% in warspeech and 10% for each red trait up to 4, for max 50%.
Last edited by tomiathon; Mar 10 2012 at 05:25 AM.
It is simply ridiculous that minnies can self-heal at 100% while in war speech. The only legitimate use for this in PvE is for solo leveling, and if you really need it to solo level then you probably don't have much of a clue what you are doing.
Yes, that would be ridiculous if they could. The major fly in your ointment is that they can't. As Tomiathon points out:
Originally Posted by tomiathon
That said, someone did make a good point upthread that our healing abilities are already nerfed by being traited redline to an extent that wasn't really the case before the most recent changes.
Traits make a huge difference to Minstrel abilities. If a Minstrel is running War Speech then chances are that they are red-traited which means their heals aren't "100%" by any means, neither are their Anthems. Anybody trying to solo blue or yellow traited is clearly looking to challenge themselves (and fair play to them for that) but they are the exceptions, not the rule. Of course, if a Minstrel is blue-traited then there is no way they can pack the dps punch they can when red. I neither know nor care what Minstrel performance is like in the Moors, at the moment Minstrel is working just fine for me in the rest of the world. Generally I don't heal myself but every now and then it's handy. But then, I probably don't have much of a clue what I am doing ... apparently.
Why are we giving forum space to a group of butthurt Orcs, seriously?
Yes, that would be ridiculous if they could. The major fly in your ointment is that they can't. As Tomiathon points out:
Traits make a huge difference to Minstrel abilities. If a Minstrel is running War Speech then chances are that they are red-traited which means their heals aren't "100%" by any means, neither are their Anthems. Anybody trying to solo blue or yellow traited is clearly looking to challenge themselves (and fair play to them for that) but they are the exceptions, not the rule. Of course, if a Minstrel is blue-traited then there is no way they can pack the dps punch they can when red. I neither know nor care what Minstrel performance is like in the Moors, at the moment Minstrel is working just fine for me in the rest of the world. Generally I don't heal myself but every now and then it's handy. But then, I probably don't have much of a clue what I am doing ... apparently.
Why are we giving forum space to a group of butthurt Orcs, seriously?
Thats odd if you trait 2 blue with 5 red your healed arn't really nerfed you can still heal for 2-5k
And the larger pvp world could stop bouncing based on who is crying the loudest.
Omg, I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but REP to you. I have creep on my server who even have minstrels who make ludicrous claims similar to the TS in WS bit ha. <- The irony speaks of poor awareness, and further underlines that universal changes should not be made based on poorly aware individuals PVPing in QQ-states no less.
This does not, however, suggest that I am not open to discussion about adjustments for pvp balance. NOT rage against a class, but BALANCE across PvP at large.
Okay back to reading the rest of the thread. I wish I could give you rep again Hucklebarry lol
Addition: Though lol with our server pushing 40% wargs leading into U6, what does it matter if we can heal or not if we're stun-locked? lololol.
So I ask a simple question - other than for the Moors and for making all content EZ-mode, why do minstrels NEED to be able to self heal with no penalty other than traitlines? No other class has this ability. I repeat, no other class has this ability. Why do minstrels need it?
If it is not needed for PvE (and it clearly isn't), and it creates imbalance in PvP (which it clearly does), then why not remove it?
So I ask a simple question - other than for the Moors and for making all content EZ-mode, why do minstrels NEED to be able to self heal with no penalty other than traitlines? No other class has this ability. I repeat, no other class has this ability. Why do minstrels need it?
If it is not needed for PvE (and it clearly isn't), and it creates imbalance in PvP (which it clearly does), then why not remove it?
^^^ This
If you cant kill dundeling mobs without self heals something is wrong with you, and as a non DPS class raiding with a DPS minstrel is a waste of slot
Thats odd if you trait 2 blue with 5 red your healed arn't really nerfed you can still heal for 2-5k
Odder yet; by your logic, the 5% outgoing healing bonus you get from going two blue means the same as getting the addition 10% outgoing and the +3% to our healing ballad (x the three ballads for a total of 9% by stacking major ballads for healing) from traiting full healing.
I've got 22k Tact Mastery when I'm in the moors and I've NEVER healed for over 3k on a crit heal in WS. I only got that because I stood still and actually casted a Bolster Courage. I'm inclined to say you're stretching that 2 to 5k pretty far (unless you, you know, are traited for healing).
Originally Posted by timmyloo22546
At level 49 I'm already devastating with the Coda skill for 2k. I love playing a HEALER class.
Dis quote. Right here is everything I have a problem with the current criticisms. Wake up and smell the roses, there are no pure healing classes. Anywhere. I cannot kill mobs with my heals, I cannot fight creeps with just heals. The argument that minis are a pure healing class is so many levels of idiotic, I don't even know where to start.
Oh, actually, I do.
MMOs are changing, creepies, you've been out in the Ettenmoors for so long you're missing that. Current MMO metatheory is on its way out. The pure Healer-DPS-Tank meta is dying fast, if it is not dead already, in favor of more hybrid based class roles. If Lotro wants to keep up with the curve, revamps and updates of the current classes are necessary. (I think the Mini and Champ updates, the Cappy healing buffs, as well as the new RK and Warden updates, are examples of this happening. The emphasis on particular set-bonuses syncing with our different trait lines are another example of multi-roled characters.)
We only have to look at other MMOs right now to understand this. Rift's Cleric is insanely OP compared to a mini- they can Tank, DPS, and Heal, all at the same time. I was Heal-tanking in PvP warzones; AoE HoT healing, while chucking damage and slows, while taking huge damage. Star Wars's (Gasp, he mentioned SWToR!) scoundrel is a stealth class that not only does burst damage (sound familiar?) but can heal itself and others in a pinch PvP situation. When I played at launch, I straight healed through a DPS rotation from Imperial agents by spamming one healing skill. Star Trek's science officer can deal damage while self buffing and healing, quite often STFs (their version of instances) don't even require a healer-based class.
Upcoming MMOs like The Secret World plan on shattering the heal-dps-tank meta completely by removing classes in favor of a make-your-own-class by choosing skills yourself. Hell, I've *heard* Guild Wars 2 won't even have a healer class.
If the mini regresses to its original state PvE-wise (Pre-RoI), it'll spell bad news for Lotro's future. Turbine's probably well aware of that. The mini is meant to be a reveler; we have a sword and board to get into the thick of it, we're supposed to go into the heart of the action to hurt things. Some of us enjoy being a warrior bard, and for that reason minis need some type of survival tool in the thick of combat. Champs have bubbles and CC immunity, LMs have all their CC, Burgs have hips and Stealth, and minis have self-heals (don't even say we have a bubble, it's getting nerfed down to 1000). Does the mini need to be healing as much as they are now in the moors? I sure don't think so. Did I need self healing while I was leveling up in content? You sure bet I did. Not every mob is a throwaway trash mob like some people enjoy to exaggerate.
I mean, what kinda logic is that? "If you can't kill a mob without healing, you're just bad." But then "You all need to be just a healer class". "Mini DPS and survival rates are too high" yet "Taking Minis on a raid in DPS is a waste".
What I don't see is why a base heal nerf while in the moors wouldn't fix the problem. Someone answer that for me, without the use of "Wow someones mad about losing faceroll godmode class gg enjoy nerf umad bro u so mad y u so mad". It seemed to work in Rift, I don't see why it wouldn't work here. Without stacking our healing ballad and traiting blue we're losing a huge chunk of our healing as it stands, throw on a healing debuff and I say we're set. Give creeps healing reduction debuff skills. This is a PvP problem, don't attempt to turn this into a PvE one. I've noticed a trend of Mini critics is to attempt to shift this issue onto PvE where it is NOT a problem.
And all of this doesn't change the fact that the core problem of this issue is not the minstrel. It's the creep. Creeps are far under powered compared to all of the Free people counter parts, until maybe r12 or something. Let's assume the mini goes, and every nerf you could ever dream of smacks the mini in the face. The new RK will be the next target then, as you slowly come to realize with their extra versatility and damage, ministrel's have simply been replaced by a newer, stone-wielding counterpart with larger damage output.
And then, another endless cycle of whine and moan continues. Either way, that's my opinion, long winded as it may be.
After having just leveled to 75 on my minstrel, I can say it would have been much more difficult to level without self-heals whilst in war-speech. Just too squishy.....
*Puts in pre-order for Cliff Note version through Amazon*
Seriously, the trololololo OP post has got enough reaction.
The nerf is coming as it should have been from the start and the crying is going to be long and loud. I wish Orion would have taken the suggestion of myself and many of the other Moors mini's pre-RoI and tiered the healing in different stances. That way they could have added increasing %'s as necessary instead of giving the sweet nectar of 100% and taking it away.
RoI will go down as our most OP moment and one where I never lost a 1v1 to any class up to Rank 14. I am sure I will be tasting the bitterness of defeat soon and I hope it makes me better in my next encounter. I hate losing, but I welcome the competition and the chance at losing. As things stand now...ezmode is ezmode.
For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures 3 Years of Stick Art
R.I.P NIDOR (1970-2012): You shall be missed but never forgotten, thank you.
Odder yet; by your logic, the 5% outgoing healing bonus you get from going two blue means the same as getting the addition 10% outgoing and the +3% to our healing ballad (x the three ballads for a total of 9% by stacking major ballads for healing) from traiting full healing.
I've got 22k Tact Mastery when I'm in the moors and I've NEVER healed for over 3k on a crit heal in WS. I only got that because I stood still and actually casted a Bolster Courage. I'm inclined to say you're stretching that 2 to 5k pretty far (unless you, you know, are traited for healing).
Odd I have gotten 3.2k DPS traited off Chord of salvation
*Puts in pre-order for Cliff Note version through Amazon*
Seriously, the trololololo OP post has got enough reaction.
The nerf is coming as it should have been from the start and the crying is going to be long and loud. I wish Orion would have taken the suggestion of myself and many of the other Moors mini's pre-RoI and tiered the healing in different stances. That way they could have added increasing %'s as necessary instead of giving the sweet nectar of 100% and taking it away.
RoI will go down as our most OP moment and one where I never lost a 1v1 to any class up to Rank 14. I am sure I will be tasting the bitterness of defeat soon and I hope it makes me better in my next encounter. I hate losing, but I welcome the competition and the chance at losing. As things stand now...ezmode is ezmode.
Again, I note that everything you've said here related to PvMP. NO ONE has addressed this simple question - If the problem is in PvMP, why isn't the REMEDY in PvMP?
Again, I note that everything you've said here related to PvMP. NO ONE has addressed this simple question - If the problem is in PvMP, why isn't the REMEDY in PvMP?
Then we're in full agreement - do whatever you like in the PvP region. But if the problem is confined there, then applying it to PvE is like using a great sword to perform eye surgery.
Well you obviously haven't run around on a reaver haha.
From what I have seen on bullroarer its a step in the right direction for sure. Sure freeps can still take opponents in greater numbers but its a lot harder to one shot creeps without them being able to fight back at all, you have to actually put in some effort for kills . I didn't say minis wouldn't be OP as raid healers and I havent done any RvR yet, though again if creeps are smart they will use -inc healing on the craid assist target. Reaver aoes might change things, or it might not who knows.
Reavers are still garbage and Minnies are still gods.
Originally Posted by Hetweith
fixed.....
I find it hard to believe anyone would want to retain the status quo in PvP...but I PvP with the hope for a challenge.
I always love the condescending and lazy "corrections" people make to other people's opinions, what an overused joke.
With the changes we have and are getting to creeps, a mini that can't heal in ws or heals 80% less will be either dropping out of ws ALOT and forfeiting fights or just dying quick and if you play both a minstrel and creep, you have to acknowledge this. If I remember correctly there's a number of additions to skills creepside that will lower inc healing on a freep. I would say wait to see how this weighs in on the class before you up and just remove a pretty large aspect of the minstrel and pvp, whether you think it's OP or not.
i always like myopic opinions that state "screw the pvp community since i'm not a part of that aspect of the game" and i used a "overused joke" to point out the overused joke of the same old 5+ year stupid statements to stuff the lotro pvp'ers back into their corner.
i play a minnie in the moors, and i die in the moors, i die a lot. may i suggest that those who have so many complaints about how op we are consider the problem may be with the person behind their own keyboard.
March is national target forward healing month! do your part!
Then we're in full agreement - do whatever you like in the PvP region. But if the problem is confined there, then applying it to PvE is like using a great sword to perform eye surgery.
I agree here with you, Casilune. Pvmp should not affect other parts of the game. Mobs are not creeps. Since the RoI launch I dropped pvmping and thought to myself that don't wanna turn the fun aspect of fighting monsters into some kind of dull grinding without a challenge. Let them nerf minies, let them do anything, let them run naked swinging arms amusingly. And maybe after the nerf I could return to the moors. The new commendations system seems interesting and not so ridiculous as now.
Now I even wanna have minies nerfed and just go there and give it a try. Just don't whine then about nerfing something or someone else, okay, creepies? It'll be so funny I'd explode
Again, I note that everything you've said here related to PvMP. NO ONE has addressed this simple question - If the problem is in PvMP, why isn't the REMEDY in PvMP?
B E C A U S E --- T H E --- I S S U E --- S H O U L D --- B E ---U N R E L A T E D --- T O --- P V E --- I --- H A V E --- N E V E R --- A R G U E D --- T O --- T H E --- C O N T R A R Y.
I hope that spells it out for you. If you actually looked into my previous posts you would see me asking for a Moors only nerf. I really couldn't care less about PvE as I try to avoid it as much as possible. PvE for me is the necessary side game of this MMO.
On a PvE note...it is laughable that anyone dies while solo in PvE land or has to uber heal themselves unless heading up against multiple elites. I think the last non-afk solo death in PvE land was when we actually had the nerf bat planted between our eyes in early MoM (but even then we were dominate in PvP), so what was that 2-3 years ago.
Landscape content is a joke and has been for years now.
For My BW Brethren or Those Who Love Stick Figures 3 Years of Stick Art
R.I.P NIDOR (1970-2012): You shall be missed but never forgotten, thank you.
So I ask a simple question - other than for the Moors and for making all content EZ-mode, why do minstrels NEED to be able to self heal with no penalty other than traitlines? No other class has this ability. I repeat, no other class has this ability. Why do minstrels need it?
If it is not needed for PvE (and it clearly isn't), and it creates imbalance in PvP (which it clearly does), then why not remove it?
It IS needed for PvE. Minstrels are now (exclusively) a light armor class, without the cushion of a pet or a rock (admittedly, we have a shield).
Oh, and before you go making claims about other classes... Wardens self-heal in solo PvE. RKs self-heal in solo PvE (with much harsher penalties than Minstrels, yes, but they also have much better DPS). Captains self-heal in solo PvE. LMs self-heal in solo PvE. Guardians self-heal in solo PvE (well, if you count Catch a Breath and Warrior's Fortitude). Champions self-heal in solo PvE (Bracing Attack FTW!). Burglars self-heal in solo PvE. Heck, even Hunters self-heal in solo PvE!
Most of the other classes either have a) better mitigations than we do OR b) better DPS than we do OR c) have much better CC abilities than we do. What we have to balance our class against others is our capability to heal ourselves. That has ALWAYS been the case, even in pre-WarSpeech days.
Narlinde, level 85 Minstrel, Rank 10, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola
So I ask a simple question - other than for the Moors and for making all content EZ-mode, why do minstrels NEED to be able to self heal with no penalty other than traitlines? No other class has this ability. I repeat, no other class has this ability. Why do minstrels need it?
If it is not needed for PvE (and it clearly isn't), and it creates imbalance in PvP (which it clearly does), then why not remove it?
Most of the classes have some healing ability, the poor hunter being the exception. Loremasters were survivalists, long before minis got revamped, with the flanks provided by their pet So why do they need it? Why shoud an RK be able to do any dps whatsoever when healing traited or do any healing when dps traited? The minstrel changes merely brought them in line with what the other classes could already do.
If minis get nerfed, the creeps will just go back to QQing about RKs and LMs.
It IS needed for PvE. Minstrels are now (exclusively) a light armor class, without the cushion of a pet or a rock (admittedly, we have a shield).
Not sure if serious..you compare 2k+ Bolster Courage (uninteruptable if traited) and lots of other self heals to the 50ish HoT from RKs Rock Pet?
Minstrels Healing in Warspeech needs to be toned down in PvP, now some of you asked why this can´t be done by giving Creeps -inc Healing Debuff Skills..well because most other Classes self-Healing isn´t OP and it would be a nerf to everybody, it´s not a PvP problem, it´s a Minstrel Problem in PvP, therefore it should be fixed at it´s source, the Minstrel
It doesn´t matter whether this is done only in the Ettenmoors or everywhere, but I´d vote for everywhere, because:
a) That much self Healing isn´t needed anywhere in landscape solo content (only if you try to solo Group quests, but well, that should be hard, because it´s Group content)
b) I don´t like it, if a class is too different in PvE and PvP, I know, you´re fighting real people, not NPCs and there are lots of small differences in handling your class, but the basics are the same - it should still feel like I´m playing the same class..if self Healing was reduced or disabled only in the Moors, the playstyle would completly change and not even the basics would be the same
Not sure if serious..you compare 2k+ Bolster Courage (uninteruptable if traited) and lots of other self heals to the 50ish HoT from RKs Rock Pet?
You mistake un-interruptable for not being able to be set back by damage. They're not the same thing. And RKs don't have *just* the rock. They can stack HoTs before aggroing a mob or two.
lets just ban minis from the moors, then maybe all this idiotic talk about being OP will go somewhere else, if you cant take a mini down 1v1 then do it 12v1 and be done with it, and maybe keep these posts to the creep/freep thread under pvmp if thats where the issue lies, keep this a serious area of the forums for help
Ssupermann: I hate minis, they have satellite lazers
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