Thread: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback: Instance Finder

Originally Posted by Raven434

I am really irritated that 90% of my groups seem to be HNT-HNT-MIN or MIN-RK-RK. Its not a realistic combination for the 3M party. If it was, then players would form groups like that and they don't. No one in their right mind puts together groups like that.

I agree that this is the biggest problem with Instance Finder right now, especially for the 3-man Isengard instances. Instance Finder needs to put together fellowships that have a reasonable chance of success. As someone else pointed out, there's a big difference between what's theoretically possible for 3 players who are well-equipped, appropriately traited and used to teaming with each other, and what's reasonable to expect from a random group with average equipment who may not be traited for their roles (e.g. a guardian who's traited for dps while hunting in the landscape). Instance Finder needs to put together much more viable fellowships before people will take to it with any enthusiasm.

I also think that the direction that instance design has taken recently is a contributing factor. Finding pick-up groups for 3-man instances has always been a problem. The Isengard 3-man instances almost require a tank and healer, even at tier 1. That leaves one slot for a dps or a support class. Given the number of requests I see in globallff for tanks and healers, there seems to be an imbalance between the classes that most people enjoy playing and the classes required by the instance designs. I think it would be better to design the instances with the balance of classes in the player population in mind, rather than trying to persuade people to play a class other than their first choice so that they can more easily find a spot in a fellowship or a raid.

Pfft.... folks need to learn2Tankstel. /flex

Originally Posted by Moondog548

Pfft.... folks need to learn2Tankstel. /flex

Could you please translate into English?

Originally Posted by ransroth

Only fellowships built by Instance Finder get the new "voting" functionality. So if you enter as a pre-made full fellowship, or if you use the "Specific" tab, then all the normal rules apply....

Thanks for the "yes"! :-)

One question is not completely clear for me. Can we do an instance undermanned? You write that by using the "specific" tab all normal rules apply. So I guess that means yes.

We'll know by Monday or maybe you have a free minute today to answer that question.

Originally Posted by Raven434

I don't think the "no healer / no tank" mantra for 3M T1 Isen runs is very realistic.

While T1 is extremely easy for the tank/heals/dps group... I think the tweaking is NOT right on for non-traditional groups.

Finally found a group using IF last night when I included T1 (seems anyone wanting T2 uses GLFF so they can inspect and pick classes first). Group was mini/mini/hunt for Fangorn. Both minis were heals traited AND choose heals for their role. I hopped out and retraited for DPS and ended up tanking the whole thing. We had 4 deaths. (to be fair, one person was a little undergeared and another had not been before, but both seemed pretty decent players). The boss before the ents/trolls hits a bit hard for a light armor to tank. While it is possible to do without a tank... its a bit more hectic than it should be. If I didn't have self-heals, I don't think we would have been able to complete it with just the one healer.

I don't think the solution is to make the content easier. Its easily duo-able by some classes. I've done it mini/champ with ease. But its sad so many PuG groups (emphasis on PuG) have problems because few are using the tool while features are being worked on the back end.

Its why I didn't want to see the tool released incomplete. People are learning to avoid the tool now and it will take an effort to get them using it once its finally been completed (which I assume will be 6+ months from now as a major feature or two are still missing from the U6 release).

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

I don't think the solution is to make the content easier. Its easily duo-able by some classes. I've done it mini/champ with ease. But its sad so many PuG groups (emphasis on PuG) have problems because few are using the tool while features are being worked on the back end.

Like hucklebarry, I enjoy doing instances with non-standard and undermanned fellowships (usually with kin members rather than with PuGs). On the one hand, Instance Finder does currently create some PuGs that have little or no chance of success. On the other hand, I worry that building simplistic rules like "must have tank and healer for T2" into Instance Finder just reinforces the mistaken belief that some players have that you have to have a tank and a healer for all content. I'd love to see a message on the confirmation screen saying something like "70% of fellowships with your mix of classes have successfully completed this instance", but it probably isn't going to happen.

Originally Posted by Gripn

I'd love to see a message on the confirmation screen saying something like "70% of fellowships with your mix of classes have successfully completed this instance", but it probably isn't going to happen.

I'd love to have this information regardless. We get so much skewed data via word of mouth. It would be really nice to see simply success ratios vs. attempted. Might be really difficult on an instance scale, but we have the stats already on our skirms.

Would be awesome to see data when you look at the instances... 65% of groups that attempted GS were successful out of 9.4 million. Then mouse over to DD... 1% of groups that attempted Dark Delvings were successful This could serve as an automatic "red text" that help people see real numbers in terms of potential difficulty. Would LOVE to see this.

Looks good. One thing did stand out to me though:

It sucks when you can't figure out why something is not available. I'd love to see stuff greyed out with a tooltip saying why it is unavailable. It's common for, say, a new alt to not have opened up the roi instances without anyone realizing it. This kind of thing just leads to a lot of wasted time and confusion.

Just my two cents!

Originally Posted by Gripn

Could you please translate into English?

I think perhaps he failed to realize we are specifically talking about groups put together with no heals, before he wrote his EXTREMELY constructive comment. Hard to "tankstrel" in a 3 champ group.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I wanted to briefly address the feedback that several people have regarding our rules for healers and tanks. Our design goals are to have all Tier 1 3-man instances be completable without requiring a healer, if you have a tank. If this is not true of some specific Tier 1 3-man instance, then you should give us that feedback, and we will take a look at it for that specific instance.

As was stated earlier, Unleashed is absolutely undo-able without a healer. That dang troll dishes damage hard no matter which tier you are doing. I may look prejudiced since I am a healer, but I am stating a fact. No one can survive his hits after his 3rd rage without heals.

There's your feedback, please fix this. Thank You.

Originally Posted by Maldrake

As was stated earlier, Unleashed is absolutely undo-able without a healer. That dang troll dishes damage hard no matter which tier you are doing. I may look prejudiced since I am a healer, but I am stating a fact. No one can survive his hits after his 3rd rage without heals.

There's your feedback, please fix this. Thank You.

Then don't rage him ala T2 challege. kill him with raw DPS.

Haven't tried the new instance finder much I am disappointed though that we cant do raids yet but I imagine working around the raid locks makes that difficult.

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

IMHO the single biggest reason for a tool like this is to be able to queue for many different styles and types of instances. With non-scaling instances not being a part of this still, I'm...

Completely. Agree.

I just hope that they allowed themselves enough to to fix these issues brought up in this feedback thread. I do not believe posting this 1 week before U6 was good timing on their part, but I can always hope it is!

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Then don't rage him ala T2 challege. kill him with raw DPS.

And yet he will still kill you if you have no heals in your group. Please run the instance before you speak.

My feedback.. I'd like more information on the instances than just a name. Can it have

the level ranges e.g. 40-75
3/6/12 man
daily quest completed or not
ever attempted before

I don't know the instances well enough and this information is helpful before attempting one. Even a tooltip when you hover over it would help

Probably not an easy thing to balance correctly because of players skill level and how well geared but:

The instance finder "bonus" could be adjusted to additionally include a healing buff if you have no primary healer type, or a mitigation buff if no primary tank type. To assist in groups that have no tank, heals, dps trio make up.

For example:
Hunter, Hunter, LM
T1. +10% Mitigations, +5% Outgoing Healing
T2. +20% Mitigations, +10% Outgoing Healing

Hunter, Guard, Captain
T1. +5% Mitigations, +5% Incoming Healing
T2. +10% Mitigations, +10% Incoming Healing

Guard, Burg, Minstrel
T1. N/A
T2. N/A

No intention to fight over the exact numbers that would be for the devs to balance, but as a concept, the further you get away from the tank, heals, dps trio the more of a buff gets included.

The idea here is to give the IF more options to make viable groups, especially on T2.

You should add a message to the IF:

"Warning! Joining the IF will most likely cause you to wait on groups forever. If you do find a match be prepared to suffer greatly due to random classes being tossed into instances they can't complete without major wipes first regardless how good the group is"

Used it all weekend long because I wanted to give it a chance ... Now I'm droping it for good. Just go ahead and add a static bonus to foundry since that's the only place the IF will find use.

So like me to go and post a reply in the wrong thread, well no matter I am going to repeat it here.

I have seen a huge step taken in developing the IF since U5. U5 for me was destruction of my like for lotro. I bombarded the forum with oppositions to especially IF and some suggestions but shortly after I quit for a while in an enraged state and I will be honest I was not expecting any improvements. However, I will admit that I was in the wrong. Turbine did and is still trying to do its best to improve this tool. For that they have got my thanks. They seemed to have found a middle ground for opposing views in the revamped IF. The queues might be mainly due to those who do not favor choosing random instances (I am one of those) but I am sure in the upcoming updates and releases Turbine will work that out as well. Thanks for listening to your community Turbine and thumbs up

When I first read about the Update 6 changes to the Instance Finder, I expected this little tidbit to generate a lot of forum angst and discussion:

Originally Posted by developer diary

You can also vote to dismiss another player, in which case everyone other than that player will be asked to vote.

This just seems like ripe for drama. However, given the fact that there seems to have been almost zero posts with complaints about incidents of 'unfair' dismissal, etc etc. (that I've seen), I am led to believe:

a) Everyone is getting along splendidly in random groups thrown together via the Instance Finder. How wonderful for the community.

or

b) People have wanted to, but are hesitant about pulling the trigger for dismissal. Again, that's an overall plus for the community.

or

c) No one is using the Instance Finder to create random groups -- instead, only entering IF via pre-existing groups.

(caveat: I have not successfully used the Instance Finder to find a random group, so I have no first-hand experience in any respect)

Originally Posted by doubles84

And yet he will still kill you if you have no heals in your group. Please run the instance before you speak.

besides, on t1 iirc when you take him down similar to the t2 challenge via the collapsing roof, he wont deal increased damage with each roof.

so basically doing raw dps on tier 1 is actually more difficult than doing it t2-style since you are prone to way more raging attacks you might not get out and more damage over the total time.
so a healer definitively is needed for this.
and if you are a champ with a guard and a healer in the group, its totally boring, since all you do is stand on the side, plinking with your bow just for the lols, and wait for the guard to die to take over tanking (much chance of that happening).
Actually I find that kind if a fail design, making one group member of 3 obsolete..

One feature I'd like to see added is the ability to see all players currently signed up on the instance finder, and what instances they're applying to.

After spending hours on it while I play out quests, I've never seen a single instance start. It would be nice to be able to see if the reason is because nobody else even wants to do the same ones as me, so I know to stop looking or possibly switch to an instance that has 5/6 people already signed up for it.

I've spent ages waiting on IF for instances, so recently i've tried the solo skirm settings to get the buff. (I need all the marks and morale i can scrounge)
Every time recently (3 or 4 in a row) i get the rift instance-Rescue in Nurz Gashu. As a healer it's hopeless- the NPC is busy trying to break down the wall thingy-fumerole is the name, i think- while i stand there healing myself as my herbalist and i get mobbed. Corunir doesn't attack and he doesn't seem to need healing. As the mobs seem to always include the type the soldier doesn't attack (i get Zealot of Pain and blood rook plus the troll every time)- and I have a herbalist anyway- all that happens is we get stomped by them until i run out of heals or power or both.
Now i know i'm pretty bad at skirms but I have duoed this on level and a little above with a good runekeeper-we used lots of FMs to get thru and only just did it, the first time but we did manage. Second time was pretty straightforward once i'd learned the FM's.
How is this instance suitable for a solo healer and why does the IF give it to me every time? So i'm back to using the advanced settings with no buff-after being locked out for ten minutes, of course. So much for a quick skirm.

Originally Posted by yvandriel

I've spent ages waiting on IF for instances, so recently i've tried the solo skirm settings to get the buff. (I need all the marks and morale i can scrounge)
Every time recently (3 or 4 in a row) i get the rift instance-Rescue in Nurz Gashu. As a healer it's hopeless- the NPC is busy trying to break down the wall thingy-fumerole is the name, i think- while i stand there healing myself as my herbalist and i get mobbed. Corunir doesn't attack and he doesn't seem to need healing. As the mobs seem to always include the type the soldier doesn't attack (i get Zealot of Pain and blood rook plus the troll every time)- and I have a herbalist anyway- all that happens is we get stomped by them until i run out of heals or power or both.
Now i know i'm pretty bad at skirms but I have duoed this on level and a little above with a good runekeeper-we used lots of FMs to get thru and only just did it, the first time but we did manage. Second time was pretty straightforward once i'd learned the FM's.
How is this instance suitable for a solo healer and why does the IF give it to me every time? So i'm back to using the advanced settings with no buff-after being locked out for ten minutes, of course. So much for a quick skirm.

That's a bummer. But you might not be aware that there is an option in the advanced tab that lets you unselect instances you don't want to do. The number you unselect decreases your Instance Finder bonus, but you can still opt out of a few without any penalty.

This dev diary has some details on that feature.

Originally Posted by yvandriel

Every time recently (3 or 4 in a row) i get the rift instance-Rescue in Nurz Gashu. As a healer it's hopeless- the NPC is busy trying to break down the wall thingy-fumerole is the name, i think- while i stand there healing myself as my herbalist and i get mobbed. Corunir doesn't attack and he doesn't seem to need healing. As the mobs seem to always include the type the soldier doesn't attack (i get Zealot of Pain and blood rook plus the troll every time)- and I have a herbalist anyway- all that happens is we get stomped by them until i run out of heals or power or both.

Fear the lieutenants so you can kill the little mobs quickly and without hassle.

For Zealots of Pain, don't damage them when there are 'minions' near him. He'll buff them if he has taken a certain amount of damage. Each buff he casts does something like 10%-20% outgoing damage (the red, crossed swords buff on the mob)

For Echoes of Death don't attack them otherwise you get a debuff that increases incoming damage (by 100%? I forget..) Fear them and save them for last.

For Blood Rooks fear them until all the minions are dead. They start to do more damage when they are near their allies.

If you're attacking a mob like Echo of Death or Zealot of Pain, make sure you tell your skirmish soldier to attack them. Until you do that they will just stand by doing nothing. If your skirmish soldier is an herbalist this means they will not heal you until you send them in to battle! So even if you fear the Zealot or Echo of Death or whatever... make sure you tell your herbalist to attack.

I havent managed to join a single pug via the IF.

Pugs seem to be going via global as they always were. Please stop spending valuable dev time on this and redeploy to something that the people do want.

thanks

Ok what I like to add for the IF is that there should be a display were is show how many are qued up.To let poeple know if it is worth useing the IF at all. Nobody wants to wait too long to get a group formed up it is way much faster to ask in chat if no one is qued up.
For instance:

3 man= 2/3 qued symbols representing what class is qued also so lets say 3 man 2/3 hunter and guard are qued so all ya need is a healer to que up same with 6 mans.
6 man= 3/6 qued

Regards

Evil

If the IF is not cross-server, there is no hope of it being useful. Every other game has learned this.

I find it dissapointing to level all the way through Moria without a single instance popping via IF.

I have been trying the IF usually in preformed groups between friends so I cannot comment on how difficult it is to find a group through using this tool. It sounds like its a big issue though.

I would like to comment on another problem I observed though. I do not know if it had been mentioned before but here it goes:
The medallion drop rate for solo skirmish completion is way way waaaaaay too low. 1 or 2 medallions per skirmish is funny. I wanted to get a clear idea so I ran it again and again on solo and on full bonus in IF and throughout the whole skirmish the average amount of medallions you obtain is 10-15 (that is if you have done every single encounter and upgraded the marks into medallions). What I would suggest is to replace the 1 or 2 medallions with a number which is equal to the drop amount of encounter bosses within the same skirmish. If the encounters drop 5 then for completion you get 5, if they drop 6 you get 6...I guess you get the idea.

Other than that I have found the IF after U6 much more functional than the one after U5. The upgrade option for marks was a nice touch, and being able to opt out a few skirmishes/instances without losing your bonus is brilliant. However it does seem that cross-server is something Turbine should be looking into for those who can not find enough players to make a group before running the IF. After all what is the meaning of such a tool if it doesnt help people find groups in shorter time than global LFF?

I agree that cross-server use is needed for the IF to be effective. When trying to get a group quickly, you want to pull from the largest pool possible. If there are people that want to take a little more time and be a little more selective, they can use current meathods. However, the IF formed groups do need to have a fairly reliable chance of success considering most of the people who will rely on it heavily will be those used to pick-up-groups, those under-geared, under-experienced, etc.

The other thing desprately needed is some way to see progress on a group being formed. One suggestion would be to just display beside each instance/skirmish the number of people waiting who have selected that instance as one they are willing to do. This could also be more specific to show how many of each role so people with alt could swap to one more needed if they choose. The bottom line is, people are going to be a little more patient on waiting for a group if they can see some kind of progress is made on getting the people needed.

Every once in a while I sign up for the IF just to see if it's working yet, but have never yet found a group before I log out of the game (Evernight). It would be nice if an average wait time indicator could be implemented, if only to confirm that nobody is actually using it.

Surely the devs never intended this tool to be of use only for pre-mades? I suspect we have a vicious circle operating - nobody is using it because everybody is waiting for cross-server.

Do we really need cross-server?

Isn't it easy enough to find groups on global on your server just as it always was? My server is alive with pug groups for skirms, instances, raids. Even pvp raids are advertised in global.

And there are kin runs.

It seems bonkers to me to invest a huge amount of resources and the inevitable fixes to allow cross-server on the IF, just to make it work!

whose to say that anyone is even going to use it even then?

Whats the point, we have a perfectly good system that works already - its called glff. Global is quick, its easy, the person starting the group has control over who joins. Additionally it creates a sense of community, chit-chat, information sharing, buzz, activity. Heck while your waiting you can even chat with folks in the pug, inspect them, talk tactics, have a fight - IT WORKS!

IF is a silent, anonymous, mystery machine which if it goes cross-server (and people do decide to use it) will be a quick jump-in, jump-out non communication excersice in anonymity that will result in abuse from bad behaviour.

To me it just feels like one of those projects that the devs will keep pumping time into rather than coming to terms with the fact that there simply arent enough players willing to use it to make it work. Rather than doing a u-turn and focusing on something that the players have asked, such as housing, the devs seem to want to stubbornly perservere with a low-demand, low take-up, unnecessary addition to the game just because its in another game.

I remember listening to one of the producer guys on an online blog. The interviewer asked what is the main priority for LOTRO and the producer guy said the IF !! Do a poll of the players and see how many put IF into their top 3 or 5 or even 10 wants for the game.

Originally Posted by Martigan

Do we really need cross-server?

Isn't it easy enough to find groups on global on your server just as it always was? My server is alive with pug groups for skirms, instances, raids. Not to mention kin runs.

It seems bonkers to me to invest a huge amount of resources and the inevitable fixes to allow cross-server on the IF, just to make it work!

whose to say that anyone is even going to use it even then?

Whats the point, we have a perfectly good system that works already - its called glff. Global is quick, its easy, the person starting the group has control over who joins - IT WORKS!

To me it just feels like one of those projects that the devs will keep pumping time into rather than coming to terms with the fact that there simply arent enough players willing to use it to make it work. Rather than doing a u-turn and focusing on something that the players have asked, such as housing, the devs seem to want to stubbornly perservere with a low-demand, low take-up, unnecessary addition to the game just because its in another game.

I remember listening to one of the producer guys on an online blog. The interviewer asked what is the main priority for LOTRO and the producer guy said the IF !! Do a poll of the players and see how many put IF into their top 3 or 5 or even 10 wants for the game.

GLFF works great. Especially when someone starts a group and then you finally get the last few players together. An hour later.

I like the IF. The problem is that no one is using the IF, not that the IF doesn't work. If more people would queue in the IF *as an additional tool*, it would work fine. As it is, people look for groups on GLFF and exclude the IF, pretending it doesn't exist.

The IF fails for one simple reason: you can only sign up the toon you are logged into. I have six level 75 toons, I can tank, I can support, I can DPS or I can heal. I can watch GLFF and fill any role or I can sit in the IF queue and hope that the one toon I chose is the one needed. GLFF is easier.

Originally Posted by RvLesh

GLFF works great. Especially when someone starts a group and then you finally get the last few players together. An hour later.

I've never waited lnger than 15-20 mins for a pug on GLFF. ofc for some people it could be like waiting for a train and feel like a lot longer. Certainly never ever waited for an hour.

And if that is the case the IF isnt going to shorten the waiting time, because it just isnt visible. GLFF is in your face.

THe reason folks ignore it is because there is already a simpler usable system that relies on community rather than automation.

For skirmish medallion runs (yawn) and a limited range of currently popular instances it's true that GLFF is fine, if you're willing to start the ball rolling or don't mind waiting an hour or so.

It seems to me that players are divided on this issue in the same way that people are divided on online dating. The traditional ones prefer to hang around in the bar, waiting for the right guy/girl to come along. Others prefer to see what's available in the wider world and hook up quickly. Then there's celibacy, but maybe I'm stretching the metaphor too far...

Anyway, the point is, it's nice to have the choice and those of us who've experienced a fully functional IF in other MMOs (especially from the point of view of alts who are not doing end game content) really notice it's lack in LotRO.

Originally Posted by Martigan

Do we really need cross-server?

For larger servers, probably not. For smaller servers, definitely. You make mention that you'd never wait an hour for a skirm raid; that's around an average time to form a group on my server. The numbers simply aren't there; the endgame population on my server has dwindled so much that you can either wait and hope, or give up and do other content. I've never been matched with other people ever since the tool was released, no one I've talked to has found a group on the IF either. Cross-server is the only hope I see for the IF to ever actually find a group for me.

Originally Posted by Daschande

For larger servers, probably not. For smaller servers, definitely. You make mention that you'd never wait an hour for a skirm raid; that's around an average time to form a group on my server. The numbers simply aren't there; the endgame population on my server has dwindled so much that you can either wait and hope, or give up and do other content. I've never been matched with other people ever since the tool was released, no one I've talked to has found a group on the IF either. Cross-server is the only hope I see for the IF to ever actually find a group for me.

But in this case, the solution would be to merge the smaller servers so that you do have decent enough population - not a band-aid like cross-server instancing.

Of course, on the larger servers pretty much nobody uses IF anyway, so there's that.

Yeah we need a better system. I like the people on Silverlode and plan to stay there but the population is fairly low and it can be impossible to find groups on GLFF for stuff. We spent 2 hours last night trying to get a tank for a ToO group and eventually just gave up and went to bed. You rarely ever see ToO or even Draigoch advertised in GLFF there. My kin is pretty small so we can't do raids ourselves.

Merging server seems like a weird way of doing stuff when cross-server IF would be a fairly easy way of doing stuff. Form as much of your raid as possible by normal means if you want with people you know then create an IF for the pieces you need left from all servers.

Originally Posted by Martigan

Isn't it easy enough to find groups on global on your server just as it always was? My server is alive with pug groups for skirms, instances, raids. Even pvp raids are advertised in global.

On Elendilmir, it's fairly easy to put together skirmishes or Isengard stuff. Older instances take a long time to find a group for, other than maybe GS and turtle. In particular, older raids like DN, BG, OD are extremely hard to put together. It would be nice to have cross-server matchups for these since otherwise you can spend weeks looking for a group.