Thread: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback: Instance Finder

Instance Finder was a feature that was released in Update 5 and we’ve been busy making updates and improvements to it for Update 6. Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Leo "Ransroth" Zelevinsky and post your comments here!

Looks good...

I was wondering about how you were going to handle un-scalable instances, now I know

Looks pretty good - certainly much better than the U5 version!
Search & filter options were near top of my wish list for it so that's certainly good.
(Now please add the ability to see who is still inside when I'm trying to start the new one! and make it easier to force-close the old one.)

I believe there was mention of including Reflecting Pool functionality in this too - has this actually happened? It doesn't appear to be mentioned in the dev diary.

The U6 changes look very good, I'm happy!

Solid upgrades to the system.

It would be interesting if the Simple (PUG) Tab gave a slightly increased bonus, required a Holy Trinity style group make-up, and allowed both T1 and T2 to be chosen. Something along those lines would be an incentive for some to actually PUG a bit more through the IF when Kin runs are slow. Another nice feature under the Simple Tab would be some indicator of Queue times for the different roles allowing people with alts to hop on a toon which will get a group going faster.

The diary said nothing about group class criteria for 3 mans. Specifically the Isen 3 mans. You NEED a healer for those and more times than not I am thrown in with 2 dps as my tanking guardian. This simply does not work and needs to change. Can you please address this issue? As it is, NOONE on my server uses IF, because of this specific issue. You can queue for 3+ hours easily on my small server and never see a single group. Until this is addressed people will continue NOT using IF for 3 mans.

IMHO the single biggest reason for a tool like this is to be able to queue for many different styles and types of instances. With non-scaling instances not being a part of this still, I'm not very excited about the changes. As I mentioned at U5, I felt that feature should have been the baseline... looks like it may be the last feature to make it in.

Nice to see it improve, but I'm guessing the next update after this will be many months away (Rohan?).

Tried IF on live last night. Server was pretty busy. Picked any 3 or 6 man Isen at T2. Finally logged out after 15 minutes. I think this will be the case until ALL the functionality is in place.

Re: select all

If I have filtered the selection, by for example selecting offensive instances, and then press select all it should only select instances in the that category.

Otherwise looks great.

Originally Posted by DancesInTrees

I believe there was mention of including Reflecting Pool functionality in this too - has this actually happened? It doesn't appear to be mentioned in the dev diary.

Oh good point! They did mention that once upon a time... What happened to it?

Looks good! Question: what are the default loot rules set to upon beginning an instance through IF?

Originally Posted by doubles84

The diary said nothing about group class criteria for 3 mans. Specifically the Isen 3 mans. You NEED a healer for those and more times than not I am thrown in with 2 dps as my tanking guardian. This simply does not work and needs to change. Can you please address this issue? As it is, NOONE on my server uses IF, because of this specific issue. You can queue for 3+ hours easily on my small server and never see a single group. Until this is addressed people will continue NOT using IF for 3 mans.

I remembe I did read in one of the patches that was fixed,when was last time you tried?

Originally Posted by DancesInTrees

I believe there was mention of including Reflecting Pool functionality in this too - has this actually happened? It doesn't appear to be mentioned in the dev diary.

We are considering removing Reflecting Pools and subsuming their functionality in Instance Finder, but it isn't something that we did for Update 6.

Originally Posted by doubles84

The diary said nothing about group class criteria for 3 mans. Specifically the Isen 3 mans. You NEED a healer for those and more times than not I am thrown in with 2 dps as my tanking guardian.

From the Update 5.1 Release Notes: Instance Finder: 3-player groups formed by Instance Finder for the following kinds of encounters now require both a healer *and* a tank: Skirmishes on tier 3, other instances on tier 2

Originally Posted by ScionofAngmar

Looks good! Question: what are the default loot rules set to upon beginning an instance through IF?

I'm pretty sure they are same as before - Round Robin with Roll/Pass, with Uncommon as the threshold.

Now you can vote to change them to whatever is wanted by the group.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I'm pretty sure they are same as before - Round Robin with Roll/Pass, with Uncommon as the threshold.

Now you can vote to change them to whatever is wanted by the group.

So if one person in the fellowship press "no" it stays as it was before the vote? Is that correct?

Question...I saw in the diary that matching ppl from different servers for instances was way out on the radar.

As it relates to pvmp has there been any thought to that, allowing groups to match up on the same server for instanced type cage match fights?

Is it on the radar anywhere?

Two questions, first, is the penalty preventing re-use of the Instance Finder for a time still in place, if someone bails on an instance it forces onto them, that they don't want to do?

(Yes, I understand you can opt out by accepting reward penalties, but nobody does that.)

It makes it hard to play the game now, trying to get into an instance, having to wait until the timer is up to try again, and again, etc.

Second, what happens in the case of a tie vote for ejection or loot rule, and what are the ramifications of abstaining from selecting yes or no in a vote?



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Derim

So if one person in the fellowship press "no" it stays as it was before the vote? Is that correct?

Yes. Unanimous votes are required to make changes (with the exception of votes-to-dismiss don't ask the potential dismissee).

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Two questions, first, is the penalty preventing re-use of the Instance Finder for a time still in place, if someone bails on an instance it forces onto them, that they don't want to do?

Yes.

If there are some instances you don't want to do, you can now deselect them when queuing originally.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Second, what happens in the case of a tie vote for ejection or loot rule, and what are the ramifications of abstaining from selecting yes or no in a vote?

Even a single "No" is enough to scuttle the vote. Abstaining is equivalent to selecting "No".

ransroth, i love the work you are doing, but mostly the use for the instance finder would be to join groups willing to do non-scalable content. That groups are hard to find since they are not in the cap. If we want to do the cap content there's always 50 groups doing that stuff in glff channels.

So... i'm sorry, but the unability to find groups for non-scalable instances it's a fail (unless i missunderstood the developer diary).

Besides that, i hope the UI could be more friendly. A list of instances is not precisaly perfect. if this could be something like a specific map for instances would be better to select exactly the ones you want, they'd be always in the same position. (Same as equipment in our character pannel, we always know where it's the necklace, for example. That kind of visual static place, aka "map".)

To add a final comment, i hope this is version 2.0 of Instance finder, meaning that we will get a version 3.0 with Rohan.

Sidenote/Suggestion: A tooltip when hover on each instance with this information:
Questpack needed to join.
It's a 3-man, 6-man, Raid.
Location deed needed to enter. (Red if u didn't find it. green if already found)

This could totally answer a lot of the newbies questions we'd have when U6 lands in live and the long time used join pannel dissapear.

Originally Posted by ransroth

Yes. Unanimous votes are required to make changes (with the exception of votes-to-dismiss don't ask the potential dismissee).

So how often can you vote for something and can you vote on the same thing again during the instance?

What I mean is if I say No to something, ex changing the loot rule, then 5 min later can they ask the same thing again and again until the instance is over or until I change my vote to yes?

Regarding:
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...finder-rewards


Not sure about the "On Skirmish Dailies" section ... So does that mean they're only adding a new form of daily reward?
For some reason I keep reading that the weekly bonus box is getting replaced by this new feature.


The other improvements are clever, but still far from making the IF more useful: Not really excited.

Originally Posted by ransroth

From the Update 5.1 Release Notes: Instance Finder: 3-player groups formed by Instance Finder for the following kinds of encounters now require both a healer *and* a tank: Skirmishes on tier 3, other instances on tier 2

Interesting, as I was auto grouped into a 3 champ pits group last week. I suppose the testers in your offices believe this content is doable on t1 without a healer? You must have some very skilled players, because Pits, Unleashed, Fangorn are not doable without a healer on t1.

You need to fix this. As it is STILL broken.

I like the unanimous vote. In WoW, I was annoyed when people got kicked without my vote being needed. I am a tolerant, friendly type. On the other hand, this unanimous thing will be trouble sometimes. I'm sure you've already thought of these scenarios though and can anticipate some complaints.

Overall looks great! Looking forward to this update!

I'm not sure if this was explained elsewhere, but... why is it that instance finder can link people up to scalable instances but not non-scalable ones? I would think that non-scalable would be easier to program for, since there's no need to calculate the average of player's levels and try to assign a value that works for everyone. If you're running Grand Stair, just need 6 people queued up, fire them into it, done. No fuss no muss. Is it just that the non-scalable ones are mostly older instances that Turbine didn't think were played much and so they won't worry about them until later?

Originally Posted by doubles84

Interesting, as I was auto grouped into a 3 champ pits group last week. I suppose the testers in your offices believe this content is doable on t1 without a healer? You must have some very skilled players, because Pits, Unleashed, Fangorn are not doable without a healer on t1.

You need to fix this. As it is STILL broken.

T1 Fangorn is very much doable without a healer. I've done it as an RK without needing to heal at all.

After you kill the first boss (which shouldn't need a healer), run back up the hill you originally came down to fight at the 4th Huorn. There's a rock that you can fall down onto and for the most part be ignored by the swarms of adds that will come. It's not perfect, sometimes you'll get the random aggro, but for the most part, you're safe. When the fire trolls spawn, have your tank pick up as many adds as can to kite around - they shouldn't need much in the way of healing if he's traited/geared well enough. The Damage dealers are now in a DPS race to take down the trolls one-at-a-time before they take down the ents. Honestly, healing in this stage is far too dangerous, as the adds will swarm healers just for healing. If the DDs die, they should respawn and get back to the fight ASAP - if you cleared the path, the invisible walls should be down, so you can just run up the path to get back quick. If the tank dies, he should probably get some better gear. If the ents die, the fight resets back to when you beat the first boss.

I played around with the UI a little on Bullroarer and overall like the changes. Very curious to see how the social features play out in the wild; i.e., voting.

Visually it seems a little cramped, the Specific tab in particular; a bigger default panel would be fine by me. I first saw it pop up for the second tutorial skirmish and was a little confused. I don't know if the quest text made it clearer since I clicked though, thinking that I knew what came next. I didn't!

Search is appreciated anywhere you put it. More search boxes elsewhere in the UI please!

My big concern about Instance Finder remains getting people into and comfortable with it. Something like the skirmish tutorials to get people into it a few times would be great. It's not a guarantee that if you build it, they will come.

Originally Posted by Moefaux

T1 Fangorn is very much doable without a healer. I've done it as an RK without needing to heal at all.

After you kill the first boss (which shouldn't need a healer), run back up the hill you originally came down to fight at the 4th Huorn. There's a rock that you can fall down onto and for the most part be ignored by the swarms of adds that will come. It's not perfect, sometimes you'll get the random aggro, but for the most part, you're safe. When the fire trolls spawn, have your tank pick up as many adds as can to kite around - they shouldn't need much in the way of healing if he's traited/geared well enough. The Damage dealers are now in a DPS race to take down the trolls one-at-a-time before they take down the ents. Honestly, healing in this stage is far too dangerous, as the adds will swarm healers just for healing. If the DDs die, they should respawn and get back to the fight ASAP - if you cleared the path, the invisible walls should be down, so you can just run up the path to get back quick. If the tank dies, he should probably get some better gear. If the ents die, the fight resets back to when you beat the first boss.

Thank you for running through a fight I know quite well, but you skipped over the fight that requires heals. As a guardian with the BEST gear available in game, I find it hard to believe the first boss requires no healer, at least for that class. Even swapping to my draigoch set for Warriors Fortitude and back to my orthanc set for pledge cooldown reduction, I could not keep myself up through the whole thing. And even so, are your arguing that this is ideal or even acceptable situation for instance finder class criteria? This is t1 remember. The majority of players will be using t1, and they most likely will NOT be geared well enough. That is why t1 exists.

I notice you did not mention the other two 3 mans. Should we ignore this issue because you have done one of the three instances without a healer? This needs to change.

Originally Posted by doubles84

Thank you for running through a fight I know quite well, but you skipped over the fight that requires heals. As a guardian with the BEST gear available in game, I find it hard to believe the first boss requires no healer, at least for that class. Even swapping to my draigoch set for Warriors Fortitude and back to my orthanc set for pledge cooldown reduction, I could not keep myself up through the whole thing. And even so, are your arguing that this is ideal or even acceptable situation for instance finder class criteria? This is t1 remember. The majority of players will be using t1, and they most likely will NOT be geared well enough. That is why t1 exists.

I notice you did not mention the other two 3 mans. Should we ignore this issue because you have done one of the three instances without a healer? This needs to change.

Fangorn T1 is do-able without a healer. I, personally have not done it without, but I have seen people do it. I could probably do it without heals: when I did it (on my warden), I just hit a few threat skills and then kept my avoidances up. I only used a gambit every 10 secs, so if I dedicated those 10 secs to self healing, I could probably pull it off.

As for pits: I have done it without a healer (in quest gear) up to the 2nd to last trash pull on the fire side. I was grouped with a champ and hunter. I hit my threat skills only when I had all of my HoTs ticking, and I never lost aggro. With U6 coming out, I could probably kill the fire boss. I haven' tried the acid side, but imo, i don't think it is possible without a healer.

Dargnakh: the first boss can be done without a healer. I was with a LM and mini. The mini was in WS the whole time. I kept spamming conviction (aggro leach+hot) and a few threat skills, while keeping up my heals. when the adds came, the LMs bear tanked one while the LM and mini handled the other. The boss fight is not possible though, the sheer amount of damage dargnakh does is crazy.


Sorry for derailing everyone: now for my thoughts on the IF 2.0

I really love the advanced tab. The ability to choose your reward amount is great. The simple tab should get a reward or morale and power boost. It is the same as just choosing the right amount of the instances in the advanced tab. The specific tab just looks like the IJ with a search button, not very impressed. Hopefully, the proposed update to find groups for non-scaleable instances will be coming soon, though I still want the option to solo stuff. Great job overall, turbine. thanks!!!

/rant_off

I wish you would stop punishing people who don't want to group/use the instance finder. Bring back the old skirmish system and rewards.

Don't force people to play the way you think they should play, let them play the way that they want.

Originally Posted by 12qw

Fangorn T1 is do-able without a healer. I, personally have not done it without, but I have seen people do it. I could probably do it without heals: when I did it (on my warden), I just hit a few threat skills and then kept my avoidances up. I only used a gambit every 10 secs, so if I dedicated those 10 secs to self healing, I could probably pull it off.

As for pits: I have done it without a healer (in quest gear) up to the 2nd to last trash pull on the fire side. I was grouped with a champ and hunter. I hit my threat skills only when I had all of my HoTs ticking, and I never lost aggro. With U6 coming out, I could probably kill the fire boss. I haven' tried the acid side, but imo, i don't think it is possible without a healer.

Dargnakh: the first boss can be done without a healer. I was with a LM and mini. The mini was in WS the whole time. I kept spamming conviction (aggro leach+hot) and a few threat skills, while keeping up my heals. when the adds came, the LMs bear tanked one while the LM and mini handled the other. The boss fight is not possible though, the sheer amount of damage dargnakh does is crazy.


Sorry for derailing everyone: now for my thoughts on the IF 2.0


/rant_off

So, 1/3 of them are doable by 1 tanking class without a healer. Do you not feel that turbine should account for this to accommodate all classes? And don't apologize for derailing, as this is exactly what this thread is for. Providing feedback so turbine can fix their broken system.

One of the problems with the original implementation of Instance Finder was that it often created fellowships that had little chance of completing the instance. This was particularly a problem with the 3-man Isengard instances.

On the other hand, many players seem to believe that you need a tank and a healer for every instance, however easy. I enjoy the challenge of doing instances with fellowships other than the tired old tank-healer-dps trinity; for example, I've done School and Library many times with 3 hunters.

I think it would be terrific if Turbine could collect statistics on the success rate of each instance with various class mixes and award a bonus if a fellowship is willing to attempt an instance with a class mix that has a lower chance of success. I envisage a slider in Instance Finder where you would select between a minimum 50% chance of success and a minimum 90% chance of success (for example). It would add to the sense of accomplishment for completing an instance with a sub-optimal mix of classes, while also satisfying those who want quick, easy runs. This feature would be particularly welcome since tanks and healers can be difficult to find.

PS I also think this feature would help solve the problem with the 3-man Isengard instances. It seems to me that you need a healer to have a reasonable chance of success, even at tier 1. A healer isn't necessary for easier instances and skirmishes. So, at a given setting of the slider, Instance Finder might guarantee you a healer for Isengard T1, but place you into a fellowship without a healer for an easier instance.

Thanks for the diary. I've a couple of questions to which I couldn't find the answer in your diary.

Can I still do this:

Invite four people of my kinship to do a 6man instance. Change the loot rule during the instance (master loot for boss, roll/pass for normal mobs), kick the member that is switching to an alt and forgot to leave the fellowship before doing so. Inviting the new char to the fellow while doing the instance. And doing everything without bothering my fellow members with the administrative stuff?

(please answer "yes", please)

Looks nice. Even if the IF bonus is scaled down the more specific you set the criteria, would still let me get SOME sort of enhancement while working on skirmish deeds.

But one little nitpicky thing that only appeals to my word-conscious mind. If one player voting no can defeat a loot rule change, it's not really a VOTE (I'm not familiar with many cases where a 5-1 vote doesn't pass). Ignore my nitpickiness here!!

Originally Posted by Dovuin

Thanks for the diary. I've a couple of questions to which I couldn't find the answer in your diary.

Can I still do this:

Invite four people of my kinship to do a 6man instance. Change the loot rule during the instance (master loot for boss, roll/pass for normal mobs), kick the member that is switching to an alt and forgot to leave the fellowship before doing so. Inviting the new char to the fellow while doing the instance. And doing everything without bothering my fellow members with the administrative stuff?

(please answer "yes", please)

It does seem as though they went a bit overboard in their attempt to prevent "abuse" by leaders, yes.. I wonder if there really are servers with such broken communities that this level of institutionalized distrust is warranted.

Originally Posted by Dovuin

Thanks for the diary. I've a couple of questions to which I couldn't find the answer in your diary.

Can I still do this:

Invite four people of my kinship to do a 6man instance. Change the loot rule during the instance (master loot for boss, roll/pass for normal mobs), kick the member that is switching to an alt and forgot to leave the fellowship before doing so. Inviting the new char to the fellow while doing the instance. And doing everything without bothering my fellow members with the administrative stuff?

(please answer "yes", please)

Only fellowships built by Instance Finder get the new "voting" functionality. So if you enter as a pre-made full fellowship, or if you use the "Specific" tab, then all the normal rules apply.

When I was working on the "voting" feature, I had a discussion with Avon regarding whether we should make it possible for all fellowships to utilize it (for example - leader can always change loot rule, but non-leaders need a vote. Or, anyone can switch to a "voting" style fellowship, or vote to change back, or something). We decided not to do that until/unless players ask for it.

I wanted to briefly address the feedback that several people have regarding our rules for healers and tanks. Our design goals are to have all Tier 1 3-man instances be completable without requiring a healer, if you have a tank. If this is not true of some specific Tier 1 3-man instance, then you should give us that feedback, and we will take a look at it for that specific instance.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I wanted to briefly address the feedback that several people have regarding our rules for healers and tanks. Our design goals are to have all Tier 1 3-man instances be completable without requiring a healer, if you have a tank. If this is not true of some specific Tier 1 3-man instance, then you should give us that feedback, and we will take a look at it for that specific instance.

This kind of feedback to the community is extremely valuable. Knowing the design intentions of the spaces we play in helps a ton. Not only with how to approach it, but how to react when things don't go so well. (or if they go too well).

I know of a few groups that were paired [RK, RK, Burg], or [hunt, hunt, RK]... It wasn't easy, but they seemed to be able to conquer it.

Am I correct in that it looks like there's still no way to run an instance undermanned and get some of the Instance Finder rewards?

Can't think of a single 6-man that actually needs six people. It's silly that our rewards are reduced because we're willing to run it without waiting for IF to find us a sixth. We've tried, but often end up timing out before a sixth is found.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I wanted to briefly address the feedback that several people have regarding our rules for healers and tanks. Our design goals are to have all Tier 1 3-man instances be completable without requiring a healer, if you have a tank. If this is not true of some specific Tier 1 3-man instance, then you should give us that feedback, and we will take a look at it for that specific instance.

One big problem is that not all tank classes are tank traited 100% of the time. If I'm a non-Glory champ or a non-Shield warden (because i'm traited for soloing because i'm doing stuff while waiting forever for IF to find me a group) then I'll have a very tough time trying to tank without a healer. This, of course, wouldn't be a problem if yall dropped the requirement for bards to retrait. (And no, paying TP to retrait in the wild is not a solution worth discussing)

So as a tank, I have no interest in going thru quest mobs at 1/5 speed because I'm tank traited. And I have no interest in staring at a wall while I wait for IF. And I have no love for waiting forever for getting an instance, being teleported in, seeing there's no healer, leaving instance, riding 15 minutes to a bard, and finally retraiting. So should I just always mark "dps" when signing up for 3man T1? Where are we going to get our tanks from?

If turbine wants this random-group thing to work, they need to revamp the traiting system. Give us retraiting on the fly, with trait presets we can design. And no, do NOT call this a "Premium" feature that we all pay 15 bucks for.

Originally Posted by ransroth

Only fellowships built by Instance Finder get the new "voting" functionality. So if you enter as a pre-made full fellowship, or if you use the "Specific" tab, then all the normal rules apply.

When I was working on the "voting" feature, I had a discussion with Avon regarding whether we should make it possible for all fellowships to utilize it (for example - leader can always change loot rule, but non-leaders need a vote. Or, anyone can switch to a "voting" style fellowship, or vote to change back, or something). We decided not to do that until/unless players ask for it.

Please do not ever allow generic non-lead members to prompt for a vote in anything other than an IF formed group.

If the members want a loot change, they can discuss it, but its the leaders call. The leader did after all, put the group together.

If you dont like the loot rules, feel free to form your own group.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I wanted to briefly address the feedback that several people have regarding our rules for healers and tanks. Our design goals are to have all Tier 1 3-man instances be completable without requiring a healer, if you have a tank. If this is not true of some specific Tier 1 3-man instance, then you should give us that feedback, and we will take a look at it for that specific instance.

I don't see how you could do the final fight in Dargnakh Unleashed without a healer. I think I've done Farngorn's Edge T1 without a healer. I've only done Pits of Isengard T1 with a healer. I accept it could be done without a healer; I just haven't done so myself. People in pick-up groups seem to expect T1 to be relatively easy, so when they find themselves in a T1 Isengard 3-man without a tank and a healer, they tend to leave the instance before even trying it.

I'd prefer that the instances were balanced so they could be done without a tank and a healer. One of the things I've like about LOTRO is that you can complete most of the content with a random mix of classes and some thought, but the Isengard instances seem to require the same tank/healer/dps trinity as other MMOs. Finding a tank and healer for a 3-man is difficult.

Originally Posted by ransroth

I wanted to briefly address the feedback that several people have regarding our rules for healers and tanks. Our design goals are to have all Tier 1 3-man instances be completable without requiring a healer, if you have a tank. If this is not true of some specific Tier 1 3-man instance, then you should give us that feedback, and we will take a look at it for that specific instance.

You have already been provided with this feedback. In fact I supplied devs with this feedback just after IF was introduced. The previous update to IF did nothing to address this issue. Why would you put a dev diary and feedback thread up one week before the patch? Perhaps you should allow yourselves more time, so we can tell you what is broken and you can fix it properly.

I don't think the "no healer / no tank" mantra for 3M T1 Isen runs is very realistic.

I am really irritated that 90% of my groups seem to be HNT-HNT-MIN or MIN-RK-RK. Its not a realistic combination for the 3M party. If it was, then players would form groups like that and they don't. No one in their right mind puts together groups like that.

I also don't think it is fair to be assessed with a penalty when we dissolve groups because the tool came up with a "clever" party composition.

If you want to make the tool more useful, include some of the play-style logic of the player base.

Thanks for your consideration.