Thread: Why audacity is a new fad and in its current form, will fail.

From a business point of view it will be important to keep cycling players through lotro. A system based on a stat (audacity) rather than a global nerf will penalise those who have less time to dedicate to the game and those who join the arms race late.

Like radiance this system is based on exclusion rather than inclusion. Turbine learnt to their cost that a grind based excluding stat of such significance will damage the game. It took them a long time, but they admitted it with radience; here we go again.

The debuff required for slowing down combat in pvp (badly needed) does not have to be dependent on gear or traits.

The new system has not adjusted healing which is about to become the most overpowered skill in the history of lotro. Freeps will be facing tougher oppenents with more healing. Creeps (without burst dps) will be facing burst healing with a significant reduction in dps. Imgine now if pre-audacity you had 30 to 50% less dps but had to cope with the same healing...

The commodation cap is there to make sure people earn the new stat. Ok except everyone hardcore will grind stones worth 6 audacity on creep and up to 7 aud on 5 characters on freep. Plus extra gear. Great news for casual and new players.

"The audacity system is not designed to fix balance" Great ok, we need slower fights, but upping freep dps through gear and globally nerfing dps, while leaving classes with healing more power skews things even worse.

I wanted slower combat, I've never wanted parity with freeps, but -.- this is going to destroy pvp.

The smoke screen produced by this is partly to hide the removal of dp's and replace them with pressure to use the in game shop.

I'll try it, am prepared to be suprised, but the omens are bad, this is a portent of a broken idea.

Any other thoughts?

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

From a business point of view it will be important to keep cycling players through lotro. A system based on a stat (audacity) rather than a global nerf will penalise those who have less time to dedicate to the game and those who join the arms race late.

I'm only going to stick with this part, it really won't take a long time to get rank 7 for all of your levels unlocked. Anyways, you do not deserve it until you earn it.

Less time to dedicate to the game means you don't get the full advancement your character can receive. Sorry it sucks, but that is the way it is. This audacity commendation grind won't be nearly as bad as you think it will, though.

Originally Posted by Xcellsior

I'm only going to stick with this part, it really won't take a long time to get rank 7 for all of your levels unlocked. Anyways, you do not deserve it until you earn it.

Less time to dedicate to the game means you don't get the full advancement your character can receive. Sorry it sucks, but that is the way it is. This audacity commendation grind won't be nearly as bad as you think it will, though.

Shame you stuck to only that part, not sure if you read that as me talking about me.. as it happens i wasn't. Thanks for the comment tho, I'm really only interested ina good quality pvp environment, nothing else.

I gave it some thought and my biggest concern will be for new creeps, their inadequacies I fear will be even more magnified. Grouping is going to be more important than ever, this does not bode well for the smaller servers.

It seems devs acknowledged the possible healing issues by attaching a -50% incoming healing to a Reaver's Dev Strike and a -50% to a Champ's Remorseless as a 5 piece set bonus. Of course one of those skills is readily available and another is tied to a morale threshold. There may be more inc healing debuffs, can't recall off the top of my head, but if there aren't there most certainly need to be.

In a RvR setting, I fear that freeps will have it better than ever ONCE they have acquired the PvP sets. The worst part I feel is that if your late to the party on your server, your going feel it for a bit regardless of what side you play. I understand rewarding players for PvP but I think it may discourage new players from PvP ing and sticking with it. (Especially creeps)

I can't agree more. Its going to alienate the new people. I'm not a fan of how Audacity is set up nor how it will be implemented. I do however, agree with slowing down the pace of combat, I just think they went about it poorly. But, hey, its Zombie Columbus... what more can you expect? He's the dev that gave hunters a "new" skill that is our 3rd slowest induction, worst ranged damage and has a 2m radius AoE. Expect more /facepalms if ZC continues to work on PvP.

wargs have a healing debuff and a inturtping bleed

Totally agree with the OP.

This is designed because the devs do not know how to balance the game correctly. This is indeed a smoke screen to hide the fact that for the past 2 years, they have failed at everything implemented in the moors and this will join the list of failures.

Being a greenie gets worse with every update. Every, single update.

It's no wonder just about every review I've read concerning turbine and pvp just laughs it off.

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

The commodation cap is there to make sure people earn the new stat. Ok except everyone hardcore will grind stones worth 6 audacity on creep and up to 7 aud on 5 characters on freep. Plus extra gear. Great news for casual and new players.

might be hard to grind out all that audacity (around 40k or so i think) when there is a per server cap of 10k. unless there's a barter vendor to exchange stones for comendations even if u did save up a ton of stones when they convert them over you will only be able to get 1 piece.

I imagine it will fail because freeps will do the normal post update hissy fit and audacity will get either removed from creepside or significantly nerfed.

I agree. It will fail. All it achieves as you quite rightly point out is magnify the major disparity between certain healing classes and the rest.

Big, big fail.

Also as far as parity goes... when playing my creeps I don't want to be OP, I don't mind not being on par but I DO WANT to be able to use skill to overcome an opponent. Currently I can stay at the back of most freeps on a reaver and still lose by a comfortable margin. A reaver has pretty much no utility skills, if it can't dps down an opponent when it has position 90% of a fight then... FAIL.

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

Great ok, we need slower fights, but upping freep dps through gear and globally nerfing dps, while leaving classes with healing more power skews things even worse.

Re-reading this quote is the best way to summarize why Audacity will be an issue. The more I consider it, the more I believe that healing is going to have to be addressed in the moors under the current system.

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

Any other thoughts?

audacity is a distraction from the real problem of the moors. The uncapping of stats for freeps for the ROI expansion enabled them to create builds that increased their damage output via the % chance they can do devestating critical hits. Creeps were not given a mechanism to combat this issue as it was a design for the PvE game.

Thats the problem, it still exsists. Audacity on its surface looks like an attempt to correct that issue it mitigates damage in an effort to "slow the game down". The language of "slowing the game down" is another distraction from "DPS is to high". If the desire was to make the moors balanced audacity would be a creep only stat that was rank gated. Thats not the implementation proposed its going to be universal freep and creep. So a universal application of a damage mitigation where one side does 2-3 times more damage is not going to bring balance to the moors.

Will it slow down combat? yep, but remember we will now have commedations which will be largely based on your prowess on the field. Yet as a lot of players are distracted by audacity they dont realize that damage output hasnt been addressed to compensate the % chance to dev crit. I mean, an RK auto attack is almost as much as a wargs.

So likely result? Slower deaths (15 seconds instead of 7), freep players will still out put much more damage in some cases 300% more (with the dev criticals), and the moors will remain the same. A place where people like to proclaim their skill and prowess when in reality all they are doing is clicking a button and gambling on a % chance for a big hit.

tl;dr commedation, audacity, class updates to wargs and weavers is a distraction from the real problem of damage out put.

Originally Posted by thisisanewname

might be hard to grind out all that audacity (around 40k or so i think) when there is a per server cap of 10k. unless there's a barter vendor to exchange stones for comendations even if u did save up a ton of stones when they convert them over you will only be able to get 1 piece.

In case i did not point this out, stones in vaults are currently kept until removed, stones on alts are currently converted on log in. Hence dof farming is going on unabated.

Take freep Jones. He has 5 freeps and has 5000 dulls on his toon ready for live, thats 10,000 comms; the cap (remember we are all starting at 0 >.<) Only having spent the 6000 to put his audacity at 2, now logs an alt with a further 3000 dulls, thats audacity 2 on his second toon. He then turns to his vaults removing the dulls required to raise his audacity to 7, a full set at live, on both toons. Day one his two active moors characters have a full 10,000 comms remaining and 7 audacity each...

Its a lot of stones, ofc not all will pre grind the full amount, but you can be sure the hardcore, store pot using, op class playing look at how uber i am people will have taken advantage of this sure as it was a new terrain exploit that was not going to get fixed for 6 months.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

I still believe the biggest problem is freep crits

Your justifyable campaign to address dev crit levels is relevant here. Audacity is not intended to address balance is a direct quote from a dev, so I was not expecting it to tbh.

Then again with the healing issue it stands to make it balance worse. While like radiance its about to gate peoples inclusion in pvp.

The lack of crit magnitude reduction on the moors, along with no major changes to defilers and war-leaders, coupled with a lack of increase to reavers direct damage is something to dwell on.

But audacity is going to make those crits pale next to how op healing is about to become. Ofc those crits will help freeps break through more powerful healing creepside. Lack of burst on creepside means the opposite.

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

Your justifyable campaign to address dev crit levels is relevant here. Audacity is not intended to address balance is a direct quote from a dev, so I was not expecting it to tbh.

Then again with the healing issue it stands to make it balance worse. While like radiance its about to gate peoples inclusion in pvp.

The lack of crit magnitude reduction on the moors, along with no major changes to defilers and war-leaders, coupled with a lack of increase to reavers direct damage is something to dwell on.

But audacity is going to make those crits pale next to how op healing is about to become. Ofc those crits will help freeps break through more powerful healing creepside. Lack of burst on creepside means the opposite.

Crits work for heals as well and the dps crits are and were the issue with the moors, perhaps with audacity healing will be the new issue. for me it is very simple, the freep build is for the PvE game and the creep build was not adjusted for those changes. Ive yet to see anyone dispute this claim.

Audacity dosent change that, had it been implemented on the creepside only then we'd have a basis for a good chance at balance or at a minimum a way to mitigate the PvE changes. This would have allowed the devs to keep building for the PvE game (remember we have lvl 85 coming soon) they could have just bumped the audacity rating each level cap and creeps wouldnt have a lot to gripe about.

This is why its a distraction, because anyone who has spent a small amount of time in the moors knows why it broken, even honest freeps admit it. Healing might be the next OP thing, I dont know. As you know my vein of discourse has been to address the uncapped stats at ROI and their impact on the moors. Even with audacity I still have a good argument, it should have been a creep only enhancement.

I think healing might be a good basis for an arguing point going forward, we'll see. Championing the issues in the moors is fairly simple eitherway because its not hard to figure out the problems. Players see them, we know what the problems are (both sides). We've been distracted by the U6 whirlwind, a lot of lipstick is being slapped on this pig

I also read on the Bullroar forum that Commendations are shared between your freeps and creeps. This means for those that flip sides or are willing to flip sides can get over 1000 a day just flipping keeps on both sides.

I don't see this "slowing" down PvP at all.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Crits and pigs

To be clear i've never disputed that uncapped stats or crits are a major problem, as you know me ol mucker.

But think on this, even with crits you could kill the opposition. Put yourself ina situation where you are doing the same damage as now, but healing is 30 to 50% higher. Not being able to kill an opponent is even more of an issue than the opponent out dps'ing you by a factor of 3 to 5. Bubbles will be even more effective.

You know feedback from the test server, wardens are soloing tyrants, minstrels are unkillable... Imagine facing a raid where rune keepers, captains, minstrels healing has gone up by the levels i've mentioned along with self heals from various toons.

Biggest worry ofc is that they press ahead and admit fault in 6 months time.. great

Originally Posted by Dinara

I also read on the Bullroar forum that Commendations are shared between your freeps and creeps. This means for those that flip sides or are willing to flip sides can get over 1000 a day just flipping keeps on both sides.

I don't see this "slowing" down PvP at all.

No lock. Destiny points were being exploited lol, ah lol. mmm sideswitching will continue; other exploits will be slow fixed or ignored apparently, but switching to farm comms will carry on, won't effect the shop like dp's tho...

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

To be clear i've never disputed that uncapped stats or crits are not a major problem, as you know me ol mucker.

But think on this, even with crits you could kill the opposition. Put yourself ina situation where you are doing the same damage as now, but healing is 30 to 50% higher. Not being able to kill an opponent is even more of an issue than the opponent out dps'ing you by a factor of 3 to 5. Bubbles will be even more effective.

You know feedback from the test server, wardens are soloing tyrants, minstrels are unkillable... Imagine facing a raid where rune keepers, captains, minstrels healing has gone up by the levels i've mentioned along with self heals from various toons.

Biggest worry ofc is that they press ahead and admit fault in 6 months time.. great

the problem is old friend your arguing point is based on a future outcome that may or may not occur. Im not disputing your logic that it will, we just havent seen it live yet. My arguing point is based on something we've had live now for months and audacity dosent appear to fix. This is part of the distraction of U6 and I hope you dont take that as dismissive of your point because thats not my intent. Id like to see creeps get major bonus's when they rank, audacity should have been one of those bonus's. it should not be on freepside, the fact that it is will be a problem.

Healing will be a distraction as well (in my rough estimate) because you arent going to be killed by a heal your going to be killed by a dev crit, just like before. The fact that the fight might go on longer because of the heal and thus increase the chance for the crit is a legit argument.

I'll back out now see how the thread evolves.

I think that in the beginning this may be okay. Most freeps are not going to break their sets until they get well into any new set. On the other hand, creeps are going to get their audacity as soon as they get the commendations to buy it. Things are going to be particularly good for 1-2 weeks for creeps that have decently ranked toons(over rank 5.) So, we will have an illusion of balance for a while, but it won't last more than a few weeks. Once freeps start completing their sets and maxing their audacity, Monster Play will become unplayable for the most part.

At it's root, Audicity is a nerf to creep damage since freeps will be better able to overcome it.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Being a greenie gets worse with every update. Every, single update.

It's no wonder just about every review I've read concerning turbine and pvp just laughs it off.

Some changes that come to my mind:

Key skills (like Charge!) being changed into starter skills.
Earning all passives, which your previously had to earn.
Skills of all ranks available through lotro store (doesn't affect all greenies, but still some of them and for those it's a buff)
Infamy requirements for ranks have been lowered, thus making it easier to obtain higher ranks.
Quests that give infamy allow a relative easy way to gain your first rank and help on later ranks.

What updates actually made greenies harder to play and/or rank?
I can only think of Audacity.
Also the Battle Promotions came to mind, but they do not affect greenies in any way absolute. They do worsen their position compared to high rank creeps.

Greenies are now very hard to play. I do not believe this is because there's a huge difference between High and Low ranked Creeps. I believe this is because there's a huge difference between Creeps and Freeps.

---------------

I agree with the title and partially with the OP, yet I'm positive about Audacity.
Audacity tries to solve one of the longer issues in PvMP, the issue was introduced with MoM: the fastpaced combat. All classes trait DPS. Slow and Tactical (not the damage type, think 'support skills'.) play became significantly less viable. Audacity has the potential to fix this. Audacity also comes at a cost, that's where I agree with the OP. Yet I can only see it to come at the cost of balance. (Dev time to audacity = less dev time to balance) One exception, Healing. If healing isn't scaled down accordingly, you'll end up with too powerful heals and extremely slow combat. This should be fixed (if it turns out this way, Audacity hasn't hit live yet after all). But other than that Audacity comes only at the cost of balance.

In my years of lotro I've learned a couple things about balance. Firstly, it's incredibly important to provide a fun and challenging game. Secondly, it's incredibly hard to get right. And lastly, it's incredibly easy to screw it up.
This last thing is proven with almost every major update. A month before MoM we had pretty decent PvP. A month before SoM we had decent PvP. A month before RoI we had decent PvP. I think this is because communities manage to balance themselves over time (just a guess).
Since balance is so often turned around, resetted or completely destroyed, I've begon to stop prioritizing balance as number one issue to be adressed. Don't think I don't care about balance, I said it before and will say it again, balance is immensly important. What I'm saying is that it's so hard to get right and keep right, that's it's sometimes not worth bothering anymore. I think I begin to understand dev behaviour a bit more now.

Audacity is here to solve an old issue. Solving old issues, something Turbine doesn't do very often. I'm glad they do now. Note that I do not know if Audacity will actually solve the issue, it has the potential though.
Balance is just so temporary it's not worth not trying to solve big issues.

------
To make discussion clearer and easier, I'll try to note some of my assumptions that you might not agree on. No guarantee I'll miss some, but generally these are the things I think (and you can disagree on):

- Bad states of Greenies have more to do with Creep/Freep differences than High/Low rank creep differences.
- Fast paced combat is an issue that should be fixed.
- Audacity, in it's current state, only comes at the cost of balance (except the healing issue).
- Balance is important but hard to achieve and easy to loose.
- Pace of combat is more important than balance in the current context.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Being a greenie gets worse with every update. Every, single update.

It's no wonder just about every review I've read concerning turbine and pvp just laughs it off.

Well this isn't really accurate. There have been NUMEROUS buffs to R0 creeps relative to the rest of the player base over the years.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I gave it some thought and my biggest concern will be for new creeps, their inadequacies I fear will be even more magnified. Grouping is going to be more important than ever, this does not bode well for the smaller servers.

It seems devs acknowledged the possible healing issues by attaching a -50% incoming healing to a Reaver's Dev Strike and a -50% to a Champ's Remorseless as a 5 piece set bonus. Of course one of those skills is readily available and another is tied to a morale threshold. There may be more inc healing debuffs, can't recall off the top of my head, but if there aren't there most certainly need to be.

In a RvR setting, I fear that freeps will have it better than ever ONCE they have acquired the PvP sets. The worst part I feel is that if your late to the party on your server, your going feel it for a bit regardless of what side you play. I understand rewarding players for PvP but I think it may discourage new players from PvP ing and sticking with it. (Especially creeps)

That's my impression - if not killing solo play, it will surely limit those who play solo. I play solo alot due to erratic time constraints and lag issues.

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

You know feedback from the test server, wardens are soloing tyrants

Huge snip there but why do people keep bringing this up and why is it considered a valid argument? Wardens were soloing tyrants pre Isen. Sure it is easier now that our power return doesn't demand that we morale surf but it is hardly the point. PvE is NOT PvP and there are a lot of things that should be addressed, such as the inability of creeps to match freep healing/dps/what have you instead of one classes ability against a single target.

Overall -incoming damage does not seem to be a viable way to deal with the massively inflated dps and morale pools that you see, a problem that will be exacerbated by a new level cap, new gear, new grind. Might as well have base dps and 500 morale, the proportion will still be the same. The only thing I see it (-incoming healing) succeeding in is holding back those who fall behind for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Macgregor1821

That's my impression - if not killing solo play, it will surely limit those who play solo. I play solo alot due to erratic time constraints and lag issues.

This is one of my biggest concerns but frankly there isn't much I can do about it. Turbine did not intend for the moors to be based around solo play. Unfortunately I find the constant zerg back and forth incredibly dull and not worth my money.

I've been having fun out there this week.

Originally Posted by Xcellsior

I'm only going to stick with this part, it really won't take a long time to get rank 7 for all of your levels unlocked. Anyways, you do not deserve it until you earn it.

Less time to dedicate to the game means you don't get the full advancement your character can receive. Sorry it sucks, but that is the way it is. This audacity commendation grind won't be nearly as bad as you think it will, though.

I'm sure you feel different now right? "This audacity commendation grind won't be nearly as bad as you think it will, though." That's the optimism that you should never have with something Turbine does.

I'd say.. to h3|| with Commendation and Audacity! The grind from h3|| and back! It is even a more grind to just to get the freaking Racial traits ontop of, getting the skills for the requireed rank and passive traits.

Interest in LOTRO on both aspect of PvE (Freeping) and PvMP (Creeping) burnt a huge hole in my fur. Prepare for the celebration of Farewell of Langthain and Bytez on Silverlode coming soon.