Thread: Is what I'm reading about the defiler out of date.

Hi guys,

I been reading defiler tactics on the forum. These posts tend to be pre RoI. There's talk of 1v1ing from Rank 5 onward and tactics that can be used against certain classes.
Only thing is, is that it all seem so irrelevant, very difficult 1v1 and impossible 2v1. Have things changed so drastically since RoI or am I just an uber noob. (If a burg sees me now I'm stunned to death, a mini mashes me to bits.)
I'm not 'leet' and play for fun but some of the things I've been reading make me believe I must be the worst defiler ever

Any suggestions (feel free to flame away)

cheers

Foul

I suggest you to run.

Defilers are pretty sucky 1v1 to be honest, at least at low ranks. However, you can do decent in a spar at times. By decent I mean that you can get your opponent down to 50% at least before you die or run out of power. But yeah, my advice is to run away as well (or keep practising until you find a way to not run away).

Blight n' kite.

Though with the healing in between you're also likely to run out of power.

But all good for U6, our flies are being improved. Watch out Moors!

Originally Posted by Gotmituns

Hi guys,

I been reading defiler tactics on the forum. These posts tend to be pre RoI. There's talk of 1v1ing from Rank 5 onward and tactics that can be used against certain classes.
Only thing is, is that it all seem so irrelevant, very difficult 1v1 and impossible 2v1. Have things changed so drastically since RoI or am I just an uber noob. (If a burg sees me now I'm stunned to death, a mini mashes me to bits.)
I'm not 'leet' and play for fun but some of the things I've been reading make me believe I must be the worst defiler ever

Any suggestions (feel free to flame away)

cheers

Foul

Talk to Idmel on Brandywine.

If you happen to find a hunter who doesn't like to use CC, kiting and ranged you are golden, between using fear and hots you can kill them unless they stealth or run. Against any other class your only hope is to find friendlies to help you out, you will run out of power before they run out of morale unless they are completely horrible.

I do quite like Burglars, I find with enough moving about, hotting, using fear and slow I can often run to get help if you have CC pots. If you run into a champ or minstrel you might as well move the mouse to the middle so you can click retreat, because you will die painfully but quickly.

Originally Posted by Gotmituns

Only thing is, is that it all seem so irrelevant, very difficult 1v1 and impossible 2v1. Have things changed so drastically since RoI or am I just an uber noob.

Defilers are currently standing at their lowest since class release. Heres a quick summary of the situation.


GOOD NEWS==> In group/raid, we can still be useful, using our group/single target (now multi-defilers stackable) HoTs to keep our raidmates up, or at least deny partialy the ridiculous amount of damage they are facing. Blight is very potent during keep action, when all those freeps stand in a tar ball.

BAD NEWS==> In 1vs1 situation, you might stand a small chance if you are facing an average freep with poor/average gears, but those situations happens each blue moon. Most of the time, just forget it and run/click retreat.

Our debuffs (except the lower armour one) are outdated with a long induction and produces trivial effects, if not simply potted by the target. Our DPS is laughable, even if traited deep in it. Its like shooting at an Abraham tank with a pallet gun.

Forget the Blight n kite tactic. If you are lucky enough to be able to cast it in a 1vs1, its totally useless against range class and melee class have enough morale/mitigation to simply ignore it and keep trashing you to pieces.

Yup, we are at our lowest. Eventually, well have a dev that know his product and will fix us. Eventually.....

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Eventually.....

..eventually..

Originally Posted by Daec

Talk to Idmel on Brandywine.

I second this, Idmel is a beast.

Pre-Isengard, ranked Defilers could be pretty deadly 1v1. It was all about outlasting your opponent, which wasn't hard to do against most classes. The problem now is, freeps got huge boosts to morale, mitigations (both stat wise and lots of new self heals and bubbles), and power pools. Yet the Defiler has stayed relatively the same. There's just no way you're going to outlast any freep 1v1 right now.

Group wise, I'd say they're way better now just due to the fact that heals from different Defilers now stack, which can output some huge healing.

Originally Posted by Daec

Talk to Idmel on Brandywine.

this. best defiler i have ever seen. best on BW for sure. i may even get him to come post some of his wisdom, if hes not too busy destroying pretty much every freep he comes across 1v1 :P

Originally Posted by Darkheart06

Pre-Isengard, ranked Defilers could be pretty deadly 1v1. It was all about outlasting your opponent, which wasn't hard to do against most classes. The problem now is, freeps got huge boosts to morale, mitigations (both stat wise and lots of new self heals and bubbles), and power pools. Yet the Defiler has stayed relatively the same. There's just no way you're going to outlast any freep 1v1 right now.

Group wise, I'd say they're way better now just due to the fact that heals from different Defilers now stack, which can output some huge healing.

not entirely true. defilers are still very deadly 1v1 in the right hands. although i agree that in groups, defilers are now more than rez/fear bots.

Well, give me twice the amount of power I currently have and I will still be able to take out some pretty darn rough opponents. That's the main problem in 1v1 really.

Originally Posted by Spordo

Defilers are pretty sucky 1v1 to be honest, at least at low ranks.

The best 1v1er I've ever seen or fought was a defiler. Most people do not play the defiler well.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

The best 1v1er I've ever seen or fought was a defiler..

From SoA book 12 up to pre-RoI, yeah, i agree. From a 1vs1 standpoint, post-RoI is a mess.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Most people do not play the defiler well.

Agreed.

Now presenting Idmel's copyrighted guide to winning 1v1s!:

Don't die.

Just stick to that advice and you can take on entire raids with ease! I'll post something more useful later, but I'd like to play my Defiler a bit first.

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

Now presenting Idmel's copyrighted guide to winning 1v1s!:

Don't die.

Just stick to that advice and you can take on entire raids with ease! I'll post something more useful later, but I'd like to play my Defiler a bit first.

Welcome back Idmel!
Tell me how to play my defiler, please.

Well I'll probably forget a few things but I'll just edit it later.

Corruptions: I run with HfD/P t2, 2 crit defence, and DfH/P t2. There may be better set ups out there, but this one has worked pretty well for me.

Traits: Health Boost, Armor Boost, Fast Lob, Fungal Spores, and Enhanced Slime are all must haves, as is the Blight trait if you have that skill. I'd also recommend the enhanced slow trait, though Blessing of Darkness beats it for style. What use does a shield wall have in a 1v1? Doesn't really have one, but the Defiler laser gets you major style points. As for racial, just go with whatever you have, though if you're intent on buying one go for the ICPR.

Pots: An enormous amount of power pots. You'll be quaffing those like candy, so don't skimp out. The time to use a power pot in a 1v1 is as soon as you've used enough power that you won't waste any of the pot. Doing this means you have a chance of getting a second pot in a long fight. Health pots are nice, but not really a required. Stun and Root pots are obviously must haves, and a delving pot or two can be nice. Go for armor delving pots, as they help with every class.

Rank: You'll need rank 6 before you reach effective 1v1ing status. Sadly, a large chunk of Defiler dps against melee classes comes from Blood of Fire, and it will be difficult beating some of them without it.

General: While the fear only has a 30 second cd, don't use it more than every 45 seconds or it'll suffer from Diminishing Returns. There are a few things you can do to help with the timing, such as using Efflorescence during the fear since it has a 45 second cd. Alternatively, you can take advantage of the fact that your slow has a 15 second cd and use it just after your fear comes off cd. Once your slow comes off cd, DR have been reset. Or you can just count to 15. Generally, the best time to fear in a fight is after you've used a dps skill or two, and then use the time to cast your two induction hots. You should almost never use Tenderize. The daze messes up DR for fears, and it does common damage without a dot. You'll drain your power fast by using it. You should keep up your two insta-cast heals pretty much all of the time.

Burglars: The most annoying thing about Burgs is Addle. Uncurable +75% induction debuff. Guess what most of your skills are?
You'll want to fear them early, since you'll occasionally catch them before Addle goes up. If you do, use Fungal Spores, Efflorescence, and finish out with a Flaming Gourd if you have enough time. Otherwise, just go for Efflorescence and a Flaming Gourd. Also don't let the Burg get behind you, because of the nasty positional damage boost. For dps use Headbreaker. Addle makes getting a gourd off nearly impossible, though if you see a good opening go for it. Tenderize is a big no, because if it dazes they can use that to get a big heal and an evade buff. If they use Touch and Go, don't try to dps and just wait it out. Burgs are a class where you'll want to use your insta-cast heals often even if they're still ticking on you, for the extra healing it gives.

Captains: These fights take a long time. If they put down a banner, move out of the range, and continue doing that until they stop putting them down. Against a Captain you will be able to get an induction heal off, just hit the skill twice. Do that and after they've interrupted the first one the second one will begin automatically. Also take advantage of your debuffs. Keep Lethargic Heart and Deadly Sorrows up, since Captains attack slowly enough to get them off. For heals you'll want to stick to Fungal Bloom and Fertile Slime when possible, throwing in Fungal Spores when things get rough and Efflorescence when they get really bad. Fear early, and apply Fungal Bloom and one of your debuffs. Use your flies, unless they're traited for extra power from Rallying Cry and start killing them. You won't be able to kill them until they run out of power, so get ready to buckle down and wait.

This post is getting far longer than I thought it would, so I'm going to call it for now.

Edit: Oops, forgot about dps skills on a Captain. Stick to Headbreaker and Flaming Gourd, and possibly Tenderize when they're out of power and you need to get them down as fast as possible.

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

...Defilers set-up and tactics...

Hummmm. Those tactics you described might work against poor/average burglars and captains but theres no way in hell that you can down a decently geared/played burg that way. Burning throught a 9k+ burglar using only headbreaker is impossible, period! Hes gonna kill you in less than 15 seconds, garanteed. Unless you can, by some sort of miracle, pop your brand BEFORE he engage you, he will chain mez/stun you while stabbing like a maniac.

For a captain, yeah, im using similar tactic also with honorable results (except against very skilled ones).

Now, according to several BW creeps, you seems to be able to trash throught ANY and EVERY freeps you are facing. Im just curious here: How the hell can you down a (decently played/geared) Champion? or Minstrel? or LM? or Guardian? or a shield-traited Warden?

Finally, can you post a SS of your War screen? If your winning almost all of your 1vs1, you should have high rating and several thousands KBs while having only a few hundreds deaths, considering your current rank. I would like to see where you are standing, so i can eventually consider to retrait/change my personnal strategy on the field.

Thanks for your time, your guide will help a lot of greenies defilers

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Hummmm. Those tactics you described might work against poor/average burglars and captains but theres no way in hell that you can down a decently geared/played burg that way. Burning throught a 9k+ burglar using only headbreaker is impossible, period! Hes gonna kill you in less than 15 seconds, garanteed. Unless you can, by some sort of miracle, pop your brand BEFORE he engage you, he will chain mez/stun you while stabbing like a maniac.

For a captain, yeah, im using similar tactic also with honorable results (except against very skilled ones).

Now, according to several BW creeps, you seems to be able to trash throught ANY and EVERY freeps you are facing. Im just curious here: How the hell can you down a (decently played/geared) Champion? or Minstrel? or LM? or Guardian? or a shield-traited Warden?

Finally, can you post a SS of your War screen? If your winning almost all of your 1vs1, you should have high rating and several thousands KBs while having only a few hundreds deaths, considering your current rank. I would like to see where you are standing, so i can eventually consider to retrait/change my personnal strategy on the field.

Thanks for your time, your guide will help a lot of greenies defilers

just saying, about the wartab. BW is a complete zergfest.

also, the better burgs on BW tend to ave around 7k-ish morale. and he can and has beat them. not saying he wins every 1v1, but a fair share, against good freeps. he is a beast.

Originally Posted by 0987654321

just saying, about the wartab. BW is a complete zergfest.

This is why BW wartabs are not an indication of skill. Sure we have star huggers and raid babies, but unless you're a Warg, Mini, Burg or Guard, you going to get zerged and die...a lot, no matter how you play. 1v1's are not some sacred institution immune from the zergs, people roll Candy Mountain, myself included, and 1v1 circles are a great place to pick people off unawares.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Hummmm. Those tactics you described might work against poor/average burglars and captains but theres no way in hell that you can down a decently geared/played burg that way.

Yes, it's not a perfect guide but it's hard to put all the nuances of fighting a class into words. Experience is the best teacher. Also, one thing I should have stressed in my original post was the importance of movement. Movement will make or break a fight, so it's good to practice it.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Burning throught a 9k+ burglar using only headbreaker is impossible, period!

[IMG][/IMG]

I used Flaming Gourd once for that fight. He didn't have 9k, but the point still stands that it's possible to kill a burg with only Headbreaker.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Now, according to several BW creeps, you seems to be able to trash throught ANY and EVERY freeps you are facing.

Eh, you seem to have gotten the wrong impression from those posts. I've beaten most Freeps on the server at one point or another, but I won't claim I can do it every time to every freep.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Im just curious here: How the hell can you down a (decently played/geared) Champion? or Minstrel? or LM? or Guardian? or a shield-traited Warden?

Champ
\
Same burg as before, but living
I was going to post a picture of a Guard too, but the max number of screenshots per post is 4. Those screenshots were all taken today, and the Champ, Burg, and Guard were all in the green ranks. I couldn't find any Minis or LMs, and the environmentalists get mad if you kill a Warden on BW. Endangered species and all that. Rank doesn't equal skill, but freeps generally know what they're doing by that point. The images make this post huge, so I'll post some short guides later. These are just proof that I know what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Finally, can you post a SS of your War screen? If your winning almost all of your 1vs1, you should have high rating and several thousands KBs while having only a few hundreds deaths, considering your current rank. I would like to see where you are standing, so i can eventually consider to retrait/change my personnal strategy on the field.

Blight kbs don't show up the normal way, so add an extra 25ish to that number. Also, no rank 8 Defiler will have several thousand kbs, we are not and have never been a dps class. When I can get a lot of solo fights, my rating tends to hover around 1300. Most of the times it's a zerg though, so it's not feasible to get an extremely high rating. I used to raid/group fairly often, but midway through R7 I switched to almost exclusively soloing.

Edit: Found a Lore Master, but again only 4 images per post. Also, fixed the size of the first screenshot.

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

Well I'll probably forget a few things but I'll just edit it later..

Thanks for posting the tips, but isn't that what every defiler does (or at least tries to do) in a 1v1?

I don't intend any offense -- it's just that I'm the worst 1v1ing defiler on my server yet even I do all the things you mentioned (e.g. isn't "move out of the range of the captains banner" pretty much common sense?).

I guess it helps the newer player like the OP, but I was hoping to see answers more toward seasoned players like Biohazzard since he seems to have the same view I do of the situation. (Of course I'm too seasoned, I still remember when it was considered unsporting for a defiler to even use a pot in a 1v1 so rarely remember to.)

Bottom line is of course if a freep let me do the things you mention, it would be wonderful. But the freeps I fight simply don't allow it. "Fear the burg early before addle?" Is that after the first or second cc, which do you pot out of? And how is fear an automatic skill that lets you get off 2 inductions plus another skill? The burg just sits there feared for you? My experience is fear sticks less than 1/2 of the time, as the freeps pot out of it or it misses or whatever.

Even advice like "hit the skill twice and you will get the induction off" are foreign to me. I think I hit skills 100 times and still can't get an induction off against the freeps I fight even by wearing out my mousepad turning at them. You even mention flaming gourd. If a freep is going to let me get a gourd off, then yes I'm going to win and don't really need any tips to follow for that fight. But the claim is always defilers can beat all the best players in 1v1s and I just don't see any magic tips listed that work against a good freep. Even the hotkey setup in your screenshots is strange to me as it appears you'd need to click many of the skills you talk about firing rapidly, which I certainly couldn't do while trying to move & turn the mouse.

So I think there's a missing link going on between the great 1v1 defilers and the rest of us. I suspect it lies in the movement while kiting, since that's the lifeblood to let our HoTs have time to work. For example, one great defiler on my server will run, jump, turn in midair to hit sticky feet, flip back around before landing on the run & that way create the needed kiting space. Not that it would help against a sprinting champ...

Anyway, I will never have such movement skill and if that's the difference between winning 1v1s and not, I can live with that, because I don't see that as me losing because I'm a bad defiler but losing because I don't want carpel tunnel. But if there's some strat that or tip that you could add I'd appreciate the advice, I can use all the help I can get.

Originally Posted by Sniz

Thanks for posting the tips, but isn't that what every defiler does (or at least tries to do) in a 1v1?

I don't intend any offense -- it's just that I'm the worst 1v1ing defiler on my server yet even I do all the things you mentioned (e.g. isn't "move out of the range of the captains banner" pretty much common sense?).

You bring up some excellent points, and yeah that first post was a mess. I wrote it pretty much as an info dump, by which I mean I put down anything that came to mind even if it was just common sense. That made it difficult to read and confusing at times, but by now a lot of what I do is muscle memory which makes it hard to be more clear on some points. Having a few specific points like in your post helps a lot.

Originally Posted by Sniz

(Of course I'm too seasoned, I still remember when it was considered unsporting for a defiler to even use a pot in a 1v1 so rarely remember to.)

For 1v1s this is one habit you'll want to try to break, as Defiler power management is really terrible. U6 will improve things slightly, but you'll still need the boost from power pots to be really effective.

Originally Posted by Sniz

Bottom line is of course if a freep let me do the things you mention, it would be wonderful. But the freeps I fight simply don't allow it. "Fear the burg early before addle?" Is that after the first or second cc, which do you pot out of? And how is fear an automatic skill that lets you get off 2 inductions plus another skill? The burg just sits there feared for you? My experience is fear sticks less than 1/2 of the time, as the freeps pot out of it or it misses or whatever.

For Burgs, you should always save your pot for the stun, since the daze will never last longer than a second or two anyways. If you're just roaming the landscape and a Burg dazes you from stealth, wait a second or two and use a root pot. The damage will break the daze and probably give you enough time to use Efflorescence or Fungal Bloom before the Burg actually comes out of stealth.

Fears can be tricky to manage, as your auto attacks will break them unless you stop doing them. What works well for me is tapping F1 to target myself, then hitting tab to retarget the freep. I believe this stops your auto attacks until you attack the freep again, but I'll have to double check that tomorrow. Also, don't worry about any preexisting dots, such as Blight, as those won't break the fear.

Fear pots are a Defiler's bane. However, they also have a 2 minute cd which means they can only be used once in most fights. That cd is why I advocate potting early, as you'll want to be at full health if they use it. From there if you can survive 45 seconds you can have the full duration fear, or you can use the fear as soon as it comes off cd if you're desperate for morale. Some freeps will save their pot for later in the fight than the first fear however, so be prepared for that. If they do, you'll just do the same thing you'd do at the beginning but with dramatic tension added.

Originally Posted by Sniz

Even advice like "hit the skill twice and you will get the induction off" are foreign to me. I think I hit skills 100 times and still can't get an induction off against the freeps I fight even by wearing out my mousepad turning at them. You even mention flaming gourd. If a freep is going to let me get a gourd off, then yes I'm going to win and don't really need any tips to follow for that fight

I'll try to clarify what I meant by those, as the first time was a confusing mess. There are some classes that you can use an induction heal without also using your fear, and for the others it's completely impossible. Against the classes that you can get that heal off, all of them have an interrupt that they'll probably hit you with once they see the green induction circle. By hitting the skill twice, it makes it so that after that first induction has been interrupted the second one starts immediately which will get you the heal that much sooner. The classes you don't want to try that on are Burgs, Champions, Wardens, and LMs who stay in melee range.

With all the movement in a 1v1, sometimes the freep will overshoot their mark and get farther away from you than they were intending. What I meant by the whole Flaming Gourd bit is that when they do that you should take the opportunity and start the Flaming Gourd induction. If they get to you before it's done, forget about that induction and get moving again. In general, you'll want to avoid using Flaming Gourd unless the freep gets farther away than they should have.

Originally Posted by Sniz

But the claim is always defilers can beat all the best players in 1v1s and I just don't see any magic tips listed that work against a good freep. Even the hotkey setup in your screenshots is strange to me as it appears you'd need to click many of the skills you talk about firing rapidly, which I certainly couldn't do while trying to move & turn the mouse.

So I think there's a missing link going on between the great 1v1 defilers and the rest of us. I suspect it lies in the movement while kiting, since that's the lifeblood to let our HoTs have time to work.

I actually click all of my skills, even though most people consider it as bad as eating babies. For movement I rely on the QWEASD key and the mouse to make sharp turns. The strafing keys Q and E are what transfer the WASD setup from bad to pretty good. I don't do too much kiting, since I usually run without the enhanced slow trait.

I think you're right that movement is one of the biggest factors in who wins a 1v1, but I don't think it has to be as complicated as you believe it is. Good mouse turning can make a big difference, and incorporating the Q and E keys adds a huge range of motion. On a side note, that Defiler on your server sounds like a beast, and I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say on the topic of 1v1ing.

I hope that helped you out and clarified a few points. And I really need to stop posting these giant walls of text.

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

He didn't have 9k, but the point still stands that it's possible to kill a burg with only Headbreaker.

Its possible to kill any poor/average played freep class if you know what your doing. And you clearly do. But my point was refering to decently skilled/geared players.

No offense toward Rinen, but a burglar with no PvP set, no first ager and a rating of 1180 is NOT falling into that category. This guy is doing something wrong, probably due to lack of experience, while fighting you.

I may suggest to check in the leaderboard Nutty, Echlon or Alaster for exemple to understand what im dealing with on Landroval. Clearly not the same league.

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

Also, no rank 8 Defiler will have several thousand kbs, we are not and have never been a dps class.

If you are soloing, theres no one else to steal the KB credit. No need to be a DPS class for that.

BOTTOM LINE: You are a good defiler and you know your class well. But im not convinced about your statement in another thread saying that the class is OP in !vs1. After analyse, all your posts content can be boiled down to ==>

i CAN BEAT POOR/AVERAGE GEARED/PLAYED FREEP CLASS IN 1VS1 MOST OF THE TIME.

So do i, as well as other seasoned defiler vets. But we dont call ourselves *OP* or considered *beasts* by any means.

/respect

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

I'll try to clarify what I meant by those, as the first time was a confusing mess. There are some classes that you can use an induction heal without also using your fear, and for the others it's completely impossible. Against the classes that you can get that heal off, all of them have an interrupt that they'll probably hit you with once they see the green induction circle. By hitting the skill twice, it makes it so that after that first induction has been interrupted the second one starts immediately which will get you the heal that much sooner. The classes you don't want to try that on are Burgs, Champions, Wardens, and LMs who stay in melee range.

With all the movement in a 1v1, sometimes the freep will overshoot their mark and get farther away from you than they were intending. What I meant by the whole Flaming Gourd bit is that when they do that you should take the opportunity and start the Flaming Gourd induction. If they get to you before it's done, forget about that induction and get moving again. In general, you'll want to avoid using Flaming Gourd unless the freep gets farther away than they should have.

I can rarely get an induction heal off against an unfeared freep, not so much because of interrupts, but because of induction setbacks from getting hit. I can some times manage against lore-masters because they have their own inductions and if you can slow the pet and get away from it you can do an induction. I have never gotten an induction off against a non-feared champ, they hit so fast the induction bar never gets beyond half way and in case if I stand still and let them hit me I am dead, they also have a better slow than we do so running isn't much of an option, to go with their break fear skill.

Against tanks I just don't do enough damage, they will run me out of power long before I run them out of morale.

Homebrew on his defiler from E is probably the most successful 1v1'r creepside this book. And that's without using any pots (morale/power/stun etc.) and gimping himself pretty heavily against most players. He only seems to lose to freeps that blow multiple cds/pots and on the rare occasion when the freep gets lucky crits. A defiler in the right hands is arguably the strongest creep class and competitive with many freep classes.

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

I hope that helped you out and clarified a few points. And I really need to stop posting these giant walls of text.

No problem with the wall of text, appreciate the pointers. Unfortunately no "smoking gun" type of thing in there for me.

Originally Posted by Traur

I can rarely get an induction ...

My experience, too.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

A defiler in the right hands is arguably the strongest creep class and competitive with many freep classes.

Yes, but what we're trying to learn is *how*. Is it the movement? Is it a skill rotation, anticipating certain actions from certain classes, combinations of everything, or other..?

Seems like there's 2 types of defilers in a 1v1, those that "get it" and those that don't (raises hand).

Great thread, nice to see the flow of information, and a nice conversation going.

Me: r9 defiler on Landy, did lots of 1v1s pre ROI, then headed off to SWTOR, recently came back to the post ROI LOTRO Moors.

My Take: I had an easier time 1v1 pre-roi, fights tended to be a lot longer, but I won more of them.

My biggest problem areas: Minis, Burgs, Champs, Guards of the right spec.

Minis: We have a mini named Tacky and my 1v1 combat log looks something like: Tacky hits you for 1,400, 1,200, 3,500, etc. (obviously there is other stuff going on as well), against that seemingly endless burst damage, I can't even come close to having my heals keep up with this dps.

Idmeldor (sp?) what is your strategy with War-speach minis these days? Oh and I see that I need to start using Eflo a lot more, thanks for that, I always avoided it pre ROI due to power costs, but running out of power hasn't been the issue for me... I don't live long enough to even begin to worry about that.

Burgs: Some nice info there Idmeldor, appreciate it.

Champs/Guards: My highest ranked freep is a lvl 26 so I really don't have the understanding of freep classes that I should have so I can't comment on what spec champs/guards I am having issues with. The endless induction interrupt/knockback these days throws me off. I think I do a decent job timing my fears, but clearly I could improve my timing... but i find that certain champs can beat me down to nothing between fear CDs and my slow really doesn't do much to keep them off me.

hmm I need to play some tonight, think about all the ideas floating about on this post, then come back later with more specific questions.

Cheers, Wyver

Originally Posted by Fraegster

Minis: We have a mini named Tacky and my 1v1 combat log looks something like: Tacky hits you for 1,400, 1,200, 3,500, etc. (obviously there is other stuff going on as well), against that seemingly endless burst damage, I can't even come close to having my heals keep up with this dps.

with mini's, if they dont crit, then your heals will easily keep up, however if they do there isnt much chance you have. i had a 45 minute 1v1 with idmel on my mini. he is, admittedly ungeared. im at around 7k morale 1600 will, and im missing 2 peices of the orthanc dps set. with idmel, it requires a lot of disease pots, and a lot of power pots. i used 49 disease pots, and close to 30 power pots in our 1v1, and i rarely seemed to crit. i eventually beat him because of a call to fate crit, so i am thinking that if mini's get lucky and crit, there isnt a whole lot you can do other than spam heals and hope you dont go down, and fear and hope they dont have pots.

idmel, im sure, will give some great advice, however this is just what i have seen from my own 1v1's with mini's on my defiler, and what i experienced agaisnt idmel.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

Homebrew on his defiler from E is probably the most successful 1v1'r creepside this book. And that's without using any pots (morale/power/stun etc.) and gimping himself pretty heavily against most players. He only seems to lose to freeps that blow multiple cds/pots and on the rare occasion when the freep gets lucky crits. A defiler in the right hands is arguably the strongest creep class and competitive with many freep classes.

Looks like every defiler here hasn’t truly experimented with the class, let me flip everyone’s thought process upside down by giving you the 1 skill that will make your 1v1s so much easier it’s not funny…Enhanced Skill: Plague of Flies.

This skill lets you change the whole fight strategy of the class and in most cases you should never need to resort to the lame fear heal strategy ever again. I will let you all experiment with it rather than spoon-feed the benefits/strategies on how to use them but feel free to hit me up in-game if you are serious about learning how powerful the defiler really is 1v1.

It’s got to the point where there are only a handful of players I even need to use fear against now in skills v skills fights (no pots). If you have patience the defiler is truly a fun class to watch your opponent suffer a slow agonizing death.

Gah, another wall of text incoming. I guess that's what I get for not visiting the forums for a day or two.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Its possible to kill any poor/average played freep class if you know what your doing. And you clearly do. But my point was refering to decently skilled/geared players.

I picked those freeps because they were the ones I came across that day, I didn't mean to imply that I had found the best freeps on the server. I tried to get a 1v1 with the only burg I know of with a 1st age and the Isen set bonus, but he was out of fear pots and didn't want to grind more. To be honest though, I'm guessing he would've won. I still think the Defiler is op from my personal experience though, but that doesn't mean that there can't be more op things out there. From what I've heard though, Homebrew sounds like the best 1v1ing Defiler in the game. It'd be interesting to see the outcome of that fight.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

If you are soloing, theres no one else to steal the KB credit. No need to be a DPS class for that.

Let me reiterate. Before about halfway through rank 7 I raided and grouped frequently. If a Defiler gets a kb in a raid then someone is doing something wrong. By the time I started soloing almost exclusively I had about 200-250 kbs.

Originally Posted by Traur

Induction set back.

The three classes that are impossible to get an induction heal off on are Champs, Wardens, and Burgs. Melee LMs can make it difficult too. You can occasionally get a gourd off, but it takes good timing. In my experience the rest of the classes don't attack fast enough to prevent it, though they do slow it down quite a bit.

Originally Posted by Traur

Against tanks I just don't do enough damage, they will run me out of power long before I run them out of morale.

Tanks are an endurance fight. For Guards avoid Fungal Spores, as it's hard on power. Stick with Fertile Slime and Fungal Bloom, though you will have some difficulty getting it off. I also put the vit debuff and Deadly Sorrows on them, but before you try to get those on them get all your heals up. As Homebrew mentioned below, flies are also very useful. Once the Guard hits the no power mark you can hold them there pretty much forever. I'd stick with Flaming Gourd and Headbreaker for dps.

Wardens attack much faster, so all you have for healing are the instant ones. Gourds are also more difficult to get off, but that's balanced out somewhat by their faster attack speed, which makes them take more damage from blood of fire. Don't turn your back on them as they have a nasty javelin attack. In general, Headbreaker and the two instant heals are your bread and butter, with the occasional gourd or fear to break it up. If it's a shield Warden just walk away. You could probably literally hit insert and walk away. Using Blight I was able to take one down, but it took 15-20 minutes and wouldn't have worked if he had been playing more defensively.

Originally Posted by Fraegster

Idmeldor (sp?) what is your strategy with War-speach minis these days?

Any mini will be a long fight, so buckle down for the long haul. The mini wins by getting a string of crits, or just by having too much damage altogether. The Defiler wins by running the mini out of power. If the mini realizes what you're trying to do it'll be much harder or impossible to do though. How I generally go about the fight is I get a couple of heals going at the beginning, then debuff the mini with Lethargic Heart and Deadly Sorrows. Keep your hots going, and some dps skills including the flies, though don't go overboard and burn yourself out of power. Minis are also the only class I'll always use Blight on in a 1v1, just because I find I need the damage from that dot. If you want to speed things up a bit, let yourself get low on morale. Minis generally go for a dps burst and burn a lot of power at that point, but before they finish you off use your fear. Make sure you know whether they have fear pots though, and if they do only try that strategy while it's on cd.

All in all, just be prepared for a very long fight.

Originally Posted by Fraegster

Champs/Guards: My highest ranked freep is a lvl 26 so I really don't have the understanding of freep classes that I should have so I can't comment on what spec champs/guards I am having issues with. The endless induction interrupt/knockback these days throws me off. I think I do a decent job timing my fears, but clearly I could improve my timing... but i find that certain champs can beat me down to nothing between fear CDs and my slow really doesn't do much to keep them off me.

Champs are pretty nasty. I use the fear pretty early in the fight, and every time it comes off cd after that. Each time you use it you can consider it an attack for 10% of the Champ's health. During the fear I try to use Efflorescence, and I make it a decent amount of the time. You'll be spamming your on the move heals a lot during this fight, and it's one of the few times I'd also advise sparing use of Tenderize. If it does happen to proc, either go for an induction heal or chuck a gourd at them. If they happen to not be sprinting and you're not slowed, kite. Headbreaker is again your main dps skill. A lot of Champ fights come down to movement, which is one of the reasons they're nasty.

Also, for really good melee freeps you'll likely need Blight. I've never liked using it, but if I know I can't win without it I'll bring it out. But for any fight in general experience is the best way to get better, so go and find out what works for you.

Originally Posted by Saicheeze

Flies are magic.

Thanks for the tip! I use flies consistently in 1v1s, but from the sound of it the trait makes a huge difference. Would you mind sharing what corruptions you use? I'm guessing you have a better set up than I do.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Sniz

No problem with the wall of text, appreciate the pointers. Unfortunately no "smoking gun" type of thing in there for me.

I talked to Homebrew and it sounds like the improved flies trait may be it. There's apparently an added miss chance to it that doesn't show up on the skill's tooltip, which is HUGE on a class that wins fights through attrition. Major kudos to Homebrew for discovering that!

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

I talked to Homebrew and it sounds like the improved flies trait may be it. There's apparently an added miss chance to it that doesn't show up on the skill's tooltip, which is HUGE on a class that wins fights through attrition. Major kudos to Homebrew for discovering that!

Heres a smoking kalachnikov ==> Enhanced Skill: Plague Gourd

Effect: Add +25% critical chance.
-3300 Block -3300 Evade -3300 Parry on target stats when critted for a 20 seconds duration.


Personnaly, i never leave Grams without it. With a 1 second induction (with Fast Lob traited), it can be cast in most 1vs1 situation and basicly mean that if you crit it, youll leave your target without any B/E/P for 20 seconds.

Since its a tactical skill, you will become a real debuff/healing beast if you slot all 6 tactical mastery to maximize crit chance/effects in both Gourd skills and healing.

Even better, since the CD on Plague Gourd is 8 seconds for a 20 seconds duration, it mean you can chain-debuff (depending on crit luck) your opponant for the whole fight duration!

You are very welcome!

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

If a Defiler gets a kb in a raid then someone is doing something wrong.

lol

Not necessarily, I've actually had that happen to me just the other day on my lowly rank 4 (at the time) Defiler and I wasn't even attacking for the most of the fight, it was only until it was almost over that I started attacking him.

Was hilarious ^^

Originally Posted by Spordo

lol

Not necessarily, I've actually had that happen to me just the other day on my lowly rank 4 (at the time) Defiler and I wasn't even attacking for the most of the fight, it was only until it was almost over that I started attacking him.

Was hilarious ^^

I have gotten a couple that way, mostly with flaming gourd on a freep that is running away from fight and then dies to DoT before he gets out combat.

Yea been rocking improved flies (just dropped it to trait something else, and will probably go back to improved flies later today). If you haven't messed with it you are really missing out.


My take is that the Defiler either needs more trait slots, or to simply some our traits baseline. Having to trait for rezzing and to get a 20% slow is pretty silly.

damn choices choices, I just dropped improved blight for 1v1s.. will see how it goes. Currently running:

improved health, improved flies, fast lob, armor, fungal spores, and our *improved* slow.... /shrug

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Heres a smoking kalachnikov ==> Enhanced Skill: Plague Gourd

Effect: Add +25% critical chance.
-3300 Block -3300 Evade -3300 Parry on target stats when critted for a 20 seconds duration.


Personnaly, i never leave Grams without it. With a 1 second induction (with Fast Lob traited), it can be cast in most 1vs1 situation and basicly mean that if you crit it, youll leave your target without any B/E/P for 20 seconds.

Since its a tactical skill, you will become a real debuff/healing beast if you slot all 6 tactical mastery to maximize crit chance/effects in both Gourd skills and healing.

Even better, since the CD on Plague Gourd is 8 seconds for a 20 seconds duration, it mean you can chain-debuff (depending on crit luck) your opponant for the whole fight duration!

You are very welcome!

I like the improved gourd, and yes I do think it is great, but I dropped that for the improved flies, and I think the flies slightly edge it out, but it is situational.... personally i just want like 5 more trait slots :P

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

Thanks for the tip! I use flies consistently in 1v1s, but from the sound of it the trait makes a huge difference. Would you mind sharing what corruptions you use? I'm guessing you have a better set up than I do.

Edit:

I talked to Homebrew and it sounds like the improved flies trait may be it. There's apparently an added miss chance to it that doesn't show up on the skill's tooltip, which is HUGE on a class that wins fights through attrition. Major kudos to Homebrew for discovering that!

Yeah tool tip just states flies obscure vision, Turbine probably need to write exactly what they mean by that so not to confuse people. You need to hover over the debuff when fighting to see the exact effect.

Most robust corruption setup I have found for my strategies on E is H4P2 H4D2 D4P2 3x Crit Prot. I find running without Crit Prots in this book the Freeps get lucky a lot more often so take away their luck and you soon see who can really fight. For those looking at quicker fights throw in D4H2 and/or Masteries if the best strategy you can come up with is fear > heal.

Race traits: Blood of Fire (unfortunately this becomes one of our main damage skills), Rage of the Misbegotten, Tireless Warrior, Flayer of Flesh and for a laugh Dying Rage since the rest of our race traits don’t help a great deal.

Class traits: Fungal Spores, Enhanced Slime, Health Boost, Fast Lob, Enhanced Skill: Plague of Flies, Armour Boost, last skill is debatable for me as I swap between the enhanced skills Blight/Sticky Feet depending on who is at the 1v1 sessions. U6 I can see Sticky Feet taking the spot as it will last the full duration of the cool down finally and in PvP slowing your opponent is a great help.

Heya Biohazzard, can you explain a bit more on why Enhanced Skill: Plague Gourd is such a useful debuff cos when I tried it out I found it only helped our 2 melee skills as our gourds now go through resistance checks not physical. Also pretty sure masteries don’t affect crit chance so the skill sits just below 40% crit which is nice but would hit for what 800ish? once though mitigations where a non crit fire gourd will do roughly 1000 dmg.

Couple of simple tips for fighting I find helpful are learn what all your skills do and the power cost associated as that way you can figure out the best rotations and what is not worth using at all. Learn which on the run heal ticks for how much so when you need to heal and you have the HoTs already up try waiting for a tick before setting it off again, this way you maximize how much health you recover and can be the difference at the end.

Against pet classes use flies/blight against the pet as it has much less chance of being resisted. When using Tenderize anticipate the next induction you want to use before firing the skill incase the mez procs. If you need to execute fear set you induction off right away and during it press auto attack to turn it off, not sure why Turbine hasn’t fixed the AA yet as it is highly annoying.

Originally Posted by Saicheeze

Heya Biohazzard, can you explain a bit more on why Enhanced Skill: Plague Gourd is such a useful debuff cos when I tried it out I found it only helped our 2 melee skills as our gourds now go through resistance checks not physical. Also pretty sure masteries don’t affect crit chance so the skill sits just below 40% crit which is nice but would hit for what 800ish? once though mitigations where a non crit fire gourd will do roughly 1000 dmg.

I can certainly explain it more in depht. Im traited all 6 Mastery in Corruption and, imho, any other setup is simply wrong for a defiler...Why? Lets see:

Slotting all 6 Mastery will allow you to maximize both your damages (melee and range) plus your healing output WITHOUT COUNTERPART. Youll gain +20% damage to both melee and range (gourds) like if you are slotting DfH 1-2 and DfP 1-2 and have maximum healing output (+16%) BUT theres no *cost* to it. This will leave you with your natural power pool (2500 for me), which can solve many defilers power issues. Those extra 300-500 power compare to someone that slotted DfP and/or DfH will make a difference at the end of the day. Personnaly, im very rarely using power pots, the fight is over way before i reach this point (one way or the other).

Now, for Plague gourd, this skill allow you to basicly remove all form of avoidance from your melee attack to your target. -3300 B/E/P is huge. Granted, it wont affect target resistance to some of our range skills but will certainly help for your melee ones. In any 1vs1, most of your damage will come from our 2 melee skills anyway.

As for the crit thing, i probably didnt express myself properly. Im not saying youll crit more, but youll certainly crit for higher value, big time.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing! I imagine with the upcoming changes in flies they will become more popular than ever, too. You guys should put this expertise into a 1v1 section under Defilers in the monster manual, anything that helps get more defilers running around the better.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

I can certainly explain it more in depht. Im traited all 6 Mastery in Corruption and, imho, any other setup is simply wrong for a defiler...Why? Lets see:

Slotting all 6 Mastery will allow you to maximize both your damages (melee and range) plus your healing output WITHOUT COUNTERPART. Youll gain +20% damage to both melee and range (gourds) like if you are slotting DfH 1-2 and DfP 1-2 and have maximum healing output (+16%) BUT theres no *cost* to it. This will leave you with your natural power pool (2500 for me), which can solve many defilers power issues. Those extra 300-500 power compare to someone that slotted DfP and/or DfH will make a difference at the end of the day. Personnaly, im very rarely using power pots, the fight is over way before i reach this point (one way or the other).

Huh, never considered rolling with those corruptions before. Old habits die hard I suppose. However, I'd still strongly recommend crit defence corruptions. I think giving an average freep 20% crit rating is a fair estimate, and by slotting 3 of the corruptions for it you can halve the number of incoming crits. Even if the freep has pushed their rating up to 25%, you'll still be taking out a third of their crits. Crits are one of the things that can be the difference between a win and a loss depending on the rng, so it's a good idea to minimize the chance of those happening. Morale was always good for an increased buffer zone, and for the dps race style fights Defilers occasionally get into, but with the Audacity changes coming then I'll agree that mastery traits will take precedence over morale.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Now, for Plague gourd, this skill allow you to basicly remove all form of avoidance from your melee attack to your target. -3300 B/E/P is huge. Granted, it wont affect target resistance to some of our range skills but will certainly help for your melee ones. In any 1vs1, most of your damage will come from our 2 melee skills anyway.

I'm still not sold on the Plague Gourd trait. I believe Flaming Gourd with the dot will do more damage than Plague Gourd even if it crits. I'd have to be in game to check though. The debuff is useful, but I don't generally find bpe to be a big problems in my 1v1s. Homebrew brought up that it only applies to melee skills, and with Finesse I doubt most freeps will be pushing more than 10% bpe. The two classes that specialize in bpe, namely Warden and Guardian, tend to not have the dps to make it matter if you have to use one or two more melee skills than normal.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Spordo

lol

Not necessarily, I've actually had that happen to me just the other day on my lowly rank 4 (at the time) Defiler and I wasn't even attacking for the most of the fight, it was only until it was almost over that I started attacking him.

Was hilarious ^^

Heh, can't say I've had that happen to me in a raid, but when I do get one it's very satisfying to hold it over all the dps classes in the group .