Thread: Have I missed something? why are (hobbit) burgs being completely nerfed in moors?

this is prolly a result of only playing a burg out there, so you really don't know how well you have it, dying is a part of the moors, even for burgs and wargs.

burgs.... just don't understand what it is hey have, lemme tell you a story bout my first experience with a burg out in the moors, we had a lowbie group stayin together for safety, we had 8, and at least 1 of every class. at the time we were all about r3 ish
a burg was following our group harrassing us, a solo burg, we didn't have maps yet and we were trying to get to tr rezz from lugz
the burg jumped our wl first and killed him with us all attacking him and the defiler trying to heal him. got away with 3/4 of his health intact. he then got our defiler as he was trying to rezz our wl, at this point we became very concerned, and started going for tr rezz at full speed, we got to ta lawn when both our ba's died, across stab our warg died, we lost one reaver in ec woods, and right before the rezz point we lost the other reaver, and he bore down on me..... i knew i was gonna die, i knew there was nothing i could do to stop him, and i threw myself into the oneshotters after throwing a root on him...... burg-8 creep mini raid-0
it got to the point i'd stop even trying when a burg jumped me, it wasn't worth wasting a stun pot on a burg that was gonna kill you regardless.
actually when more than 1 high ranked warg jumps me on my rk i also don't waste the pot. if 1 was a lowbie i might try to kill him before i die but even lowbies know what dissappear is....... and if they bought their skills....... wow... a solo r3 warg can almost kill me with bought skills. can't say a burg suffers from that.
and i've seen 2 burgs lock 10 creeps in their rezz point until they map out plenty of times

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

<"I am not immortal" QQ drivel>

Seriously?

<facepaw>

Originally Posted by loki84

burgs.... just don't understand what it is hey have, lemme tell you a story bout my first experience with a burg out in the moors, we had a lowbie group stayin together for safety, we had 8, and at least 1 of every class. at the time we were all about r3 ish
a burg was following our group harrassing us, a solo burg, we didn't have maps yet and we were trying to get to tr rezz from lugz
the burg jumped our wl first and killed him with us all attacking him and the defiler trying to heal him. got away with 3/4 of his health intact. he then got our defiler as he was trying to rezz our wl, at this point we became very concerned, and started going for tr rezz at full speed, we got to ta lawn when both our ba's died, across stab our warg died, we lost one reaver in ec woods, and right before the rezz point we lost the other reaver, and he bore down on me..... i knew i was gonna die, i knew there was nothing i could do to stop him, and i threw myself into the oneshotters after throwing a root on him...... burg-8 creep mini raid-0
it got to the point i'd stop even trying when a burg jumped me, it wasn't worth wasting a stun pot on a burg that was gonna kill you regardless.

Moral of the story? Burgs are generic horror movie villains.

I was on the Bullroarer server today. Watched a burg completely decimate every creep that came to fight him, yet every creep was full rank with tons of buffs.

If you think that burgs are underpowered, you clearly aren't playing it right, regardless of your belief otherwise.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

Originally Posted by CarltheRed

"A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth" - OP

It doesn't do that, lol. Perhaps you mean Bloody Maul?

Daeny, Howl of Unnerving WILL pull peeps out of stealth IF we are close enough AND it applies the fear. Doesn't always work though.

I've also had Fleas pull peeps out of stealth on a couple of occasions, but I'm not 100% sure about that - something else may have happened coincidentally, but it sure looked like it to me!

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Howl of Unnerving will pop them out of stealth, you just don't notice sometimes because it has a small radius and only affects 4 targets. So while you may think you caught a burg with it, the skill may have chosen some targets at a farther range than the burg and skipped over him/her (not sure why it doesn't do 4 closest, but whatever).

Fleas will also knock them out of stealth, but it knocks you out of stealth as well, and can only affect 3 targets.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

If you think that burgs are underpowered, you clearly aren't playing it right, regardless of your belief otherwise.

Quoted for truth. Now back to reality

Creep attitude towards freeps = All Burgs Must Die!
Freep attitude towards creeps = All Wargs Must Die!

Visible classes hate both with good reason. A stealthed player can get a jump/stun on another player without them even knowing its coming.

If you have played as many pvp games as you claim then you know that the single greatest advantage a player can have in any pvp game is stealth. In lotro it is particularly bad as stealth is unlimited for both burgs and wargs allowing those classes to get the jump/stun on an opponent and selectively choose which battles they wish to enter. The ONLY counter to this is the ability of both sides to track.

My main is a defiler but having played both a burg and a warg in the moors I'd like to see stealth handled more like in Warhammer where it was only available for around 30 secs at a time and you had to choose carefully when to use it. Something you had to duck in and out of with a pretty decent CD so that it couldn't be spammed/abused.

PvP should be about taking the fight to the opposition, not hiding from them and getting upset when they want to fight you.

There is NO class that is not a target out in the Ettenmoors... ITS A WAR!!! However if you are feeling especially targeted, try playing a class that isn't one of the two most hated.

What i think is really unfair is, that one stealthed class (warg) can tracks other stealthed class (hobbit burg). Other races are ok, you can see coming them from long distance. And hunters i dont count, they cant move in stealth.

I am saying, give tracks to burgs too, or remove it from wargs!

I think the OP means that he's underpowered compared to some other freep classes, like Champions and Minstrels.
Can't deny that.


On a more serious note. Dear OP, play a reaver and you'll know what underpowered means. Learn the value of stealth.

I personally prefer Reaverstealth (hiding in bushes or behind trees 'n rocks), it's much more challenging.

Originally Posted by Vilda

What i think is really unfair is, that one stealthed class (warg) can tracks other stealthed class (hobbit burg). Other races are ok, you can see coming them from long distance. And hunters i dont count, they cant move in stealth.

I am saying, give tracks to burgs too, or remove it from wargs!

Then you are going to have to give wargs some abilities that burgs have, such as the ability to heal when they get stunned. Kinda puts it in perspective eh?

Originally Posted by Ingaras

Uhm... AoE has been popping stuff out of stealth since... like... ever?

Nothing new really.

"Can't use CC much" ?? *boggle* right... you've got the 2nd most powerful CC skill in the game!

And for survival skills... ever heard of Touch and Go? Hide in Plain Sight? Ready and Able? 3 skills just about any class would love to have.

I would like to point out that finesse severely reduced the effectiveness of Touch and Go. HIPS can be tracked still now, from what I have heard at least. Ready and Able is still a very useful skill, and I'm not going to complain about it's 30m CD.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

Let me preface this post by acknowledging that Burgs were a bit OP in moors a year or so ago (just a bit, nothing like Mini's are now).

Today was a bit of a last straw for me with this class in moors. I logged in, ran to EC (Imladris doesn't have full fraids/craids 24/7). Wargs tracked me. Not unusual, This has been possible for a while now. I still don't agree with this skill, since this tracking skill/consumable has NO ROLL ON STEALTH LEVEL and will essentially reveal me to the tracker 100% of the time. as far as I'm concerned, thats OP, but I digress...

I ran to EC, got tracked. Not a huge problem as a solo burg, I'll just run back around, stay moving, go in EC maybe, and re-stealth again. Except as soon as I re-stealth, I suddenly get popped OUT of stealth. A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth. This wasn't a reveal-to-him situation, I was pulled completely out of stealth.

So what exactly should I be doing as a burg in the moors to survive? I can't use CC that much, the burg doesn't have anything to keep mobs away from me that can't be potted by the creeps. This is in contrast to the BA or the Spider who have applied-at-range or AOE slows that are quite potent. So Mischief is out, I can't use it because I get no survival options that are worth anything (even conjunction dazes are pottable).

I can't use Quiet Knife, because I can't stay in stealth, wargs simply screw with me and there's nothing I can do. BA's get an ungodly stealth detect bonus that takes a lot of gear-finagling to even match. The warg tracking skill reveals me to them with no roll on my invested stealth level (footpad is useless in part because of this), their skill howl of unnerving simply pops me out of stealth completely now, without revealing them, and if that isn't enough, their in-stealth speed is now SUPERIOR to burgs because of their footspeed bonus skill. As any real moors burg knows, speed in stealth is more important than stealth level, because with superior speed you move past enemies before they get a second chance to roll on detection.

And, btw, Quiet Knife-traited surprise strikes are something that creeps do not fear anymore at all. They still do hefty damage, but a 15-16k War Leader laughs at a 4k SS. To get that high of a surprise strike you have to have high-end-raiding-gear, not something that everyone can achieve. Considering all the skill-setup and timing it requires to achieve such a strike, it's underpowered, imho. This situation is worse when you consider that there is no good gear combination that can get you 6.5k morale or more, and 3+k surprise strike hits on creeps. In order to get a 4k hit, you have to sacrifice a lot of morale, which significantly hurts your survivability.

What exactly is the direction I should take my burg if I'm trying to survive? I confess I can still 1v1 just about any class in the moors and at least hold my own most of the time. But 1V1 is not what happens in the moors, and other stealth squishies get worthwhile "get-me-out-of-here" skills (warg sprint, Hunter DF). However, there are no "oh-####-survival-skills" for burgs (at least hobbit burgs) that work anymore. Warg track tracks through HIPS, so that's worthless. Wargs have that sprint skill that lasts so long there's no way to catch them once they're out of riddle range. Spiders just lay down webs to slow and kite, in fact just about every creep knows to kite burgs, because we have no skills that can slow them from significant range.

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not. No response suggesting otherwise will be listened to. I've played lots of PvP for many years in many games, so I know whats up. I've invested a lot of time in this main, but I'll be forced to abandon this class in the moors if Turbine is intent on beefing up wargs and spiders further (as they've declared they are doing). I would appreciate suggestions, but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

Having played creep from 2008 to 2010 I have an idea on the receiving end of what God mode used to be like and I concur that it's way more hazardous than ever to be a burg in the moors these days (man burgs get alot of tracking from WLs and BAs) but it's not entirely true that it's impractical to get enough stealth to deal with BAs. With footpad, I have 11 and I've had Rashkosh and many ranked and P2Ws walk right over me with entire raids and not notice me but it's pointless in the end because wargs are always around or the store trackers so in the end the stealth level is irrelevant.

I've got 7,600 morale with 1209 agility and my high is 3,600 SS but I've had anywhere from a fail 1300 in a 1 vs 1 to an average of 2600.

"6.5k morale or more, and 3+k surprise strike hits on creeps"

I survive ALOT of zerging (to a degree) and have gotten away with an enormous amount of mischief, like burning all CDs while 5 wargs who've tracked me spin circles in EC and I tag each one, TnG, slow, stun, mez and play dead and collect renown, of course this doesn't work if a WL/defiler is healing them or a BA/spider ranges me down from the door.

So it's not impossible to play a burg but it's much more tedious - you need stacks of potions, which means grinding for $ all the time, all your buffs, food, scrolls, etc. and if you don't want to die, you need a smoke break everytime your CDs are up which means those with limited playtime don't get much killing time in.

It's not the easy mode class many think it is but it's still playable within limits.

Honestly a 6 or more burg group requires a full craid or a dozen wargs to take it down. If burgs grouped (not in fraids) up more often than soloing and ganking slugs/rez circles and questing areas, they could roam without fear of tracking, howl of unnerving, etc. much more so. Solo yeah, it's work and I solo 90% of the time in the moors, starting when I was level 40 and got rank 1 and most of rank 2 solo.

Originally Posted by Danethor

Everything you need to know is in this post. By the way you are speaking, OP, it's evident you have not played creepside...probably at all. You truly don't know how good you have it as a burg, or any freep for that matter, until you've played creepside. You complain about your 4k surprise strike, but the highest i've seen any Warg hit is just over 1k. Sound fair? I just had to say something when I saw this thread because it is such a complete and utter joke hearing a Freep (especially a burglar) complain about their place in the moors, right now. Really. Trust me on this one, i've been playing out in the Ettenmoors for years, on both sides, and I'm not trying to jump on your case, I'm merely stating fact.

Also, just because you play other PvP games doesn't necessarily make you good or "know what's up", because in this case, you obviously don't.

Fundamentally your point is right but I've been playing warg off and on since 2009 on 4 servers and your factually wrong about 1K. Wargs are not DPS machinese but they can and do over 1K regularly. No 11K heartseekers or 7K champ crits or 9K RK ECs but they do more than 1K, I spam claws from behind and get 1.3K routinely, including on the OP of this thread who I delight in killing on BW.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

most of the burgs that run around can be seen by almost anyone from 10m

BA's are seeing you even further away.


seems like somthing hapened to stealth level in isen. and the developers view of stealth & CC is very negitive @ this point in time. Not worth leveling a burg or a cc dependent class if your goal is the moors. if you are on a populated server roll a hunter, mini, champ even captain and just zerg or find aonter game.


PS>> let me know how many burgs you see out ther epost u6


mkay good by

For someone who's been on as long as you, you got those all wrong but mini which consistently is the moors OP class. I've seen raids on stab composed of 60% minis on BW a few years ago. LOL

I've rolled hunter, captain, champ and burg in moors btw :P

Right now, I'm working on warden LOL

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Try playing a visible class, any other class will do. Or a creep.

Hmm I see you in the moors all the time and you're always grouped and raided, lots of buffs, lots of heals, so not really sure your advice means much because he's referring to soloing. Granted champs are really a solo class and I roll champ on Landroval in raids and haven't run solo with a champ since 2008.

Originally Posted by creletha

If you've played pvp in many games for many years, then one thing you probably already know is that you always have room for improvement. It doesn't matter who you are, bad or not, you can always get better. So, that's my advice to you. Burglars have it better than most classes, and you can up your trick range to give you a range advantage for your slows. That said, Burglars definitely have it rough against spiders. People from both sides burn store items and potions, and whilst I applaud you for not doing the same, it is something you're going to have to deal with. Just like the rest of us.

If burglars didn't have it rough against spiders, they wouldn't have it rough against anyone. BA's can be a pain, but you can lock them down long enough to kill or mostly kill them through or before their Moving Target is popped. Come out of stealth with cunning attack or a Surprise Strike, then slow them and hit Advanced Startling Twist for an 8s stun. If they pot that, Riddle them for another 5 seconds of a stun - this one unpottable. Don't forget that you can pot stuns and dazes as well, which is everything that a spider does and a lot of what wargs do. Defilers and wargs have fears, sure, but you can get fear pots form the barter vendors in the Moors.

Back to the BA's. Even if they start to kite you, with the 10% in-combat speed coffee gives, you can catch them without much problem. Your in-combat speed can be 110% the whole night, and your slow is 25%. A BA's speed is 100% and they slow for 40%. But if they have any intention of actually shooting you, they have to turn, which slows them down.

Recently, any Freep has had it easier than Creeps have in the Moors. Next update, it'll probably be the other way around. Everything you've complained about is old news. And it's not just hobbit burglars that have that rough, now. It's every class and race, because wargs can buy their tracking skill and it's upgrade. Hobbit burglars actually have it better than Man burglars, because Strength of Morale hasn't scaled for years. Hobbit-Silence is a lot better.

Good post except no BAs do not have to turn and they toss traps on the move like a crazy woman tosses her cats in the streets.

Originally Posted by Arvaen

Moral of the story? Burgs are generic horror movie villains.

Hey, always good to see you, will be spending some time creepside back on Landroval soon.

Trinastar here I come :P

Final response

It's clear everyone hasn't played burg or non burg in this thread.

I have a rank 8 (shy of 9) warg I've played off and on since 2009, I played reaver in 2008, I have a rank 7 BA, and rank 5 WL on BW, a rank 5 warg on Landy and rank 6 warg and rank 5 BA on Vilya and a rank 4 warg on E (no experiece past rank 2 for spiders or defilers) and I've played champ, captain, hunter and burg in the moors and pre-Isen the God mode comments would apply but those who haven't rolled burg in the moors since RoI are out of touch with the changes, it's way harder to SOLO in the moors if you don't just camp greenies (which I don't) and map out till your CDs are back or buy store stuff. Conversely the OP obviously doesn't have a clue about what it's like for the other classes or creepside in the moors and I'm happily one of those wargs he's complaining about. My last fight with him was at lug xr last week in which his 2 SSs failed to take me out.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

Burgs are not the easy mode that many people think they are, but they are still a very good class. (Far from nerfed.)

A few suggestions for the OP:

- Never go to the moors without plenty of coffee. Coffee and DiTE are your best friend vs kiting. You can also use hips offensively to get 10s worth of unslowed run speed to close the gap and hit your opponent with a big from stealth hit.

- Hobbit stealth is on a separate cooldown from burg stealth. It is a long cooldown, but it can be handy to throw off multiple trackers. Stealth - get tracked - immediately hobbit stealth to break track - get tracked - use burg stealth (its prob off its 10s cooldown now) - get tracked - unstealth and hips - etc. You can throw off a lot of back to back tracks. (Note: You should be somewhere else on the map by now. If you havent left the original spot you are asking to get killed.)

- Unless you are in the middle of a creep raid or surrounded by hostile NPCs the correct response to being tracked is to immediately mount up. Ride away for 10s. Dismount, stealth, and change directions.

- As a burg you at least get the courtesy of a "you feel as though you are being followed" message before a warg pack kills you. On a non-stealth class you would just die with no warning. It's the moors, you're going to die.

- Yes our stuns are less effective... vs rank 6+ creeps that have rank 7 audacity. That still leaves plenty of low ranked creeps out in the moors that will die before a single stun wears off. I actually welcome the reduction in CC duration. (I also play creep side and its no fun to die without ever getting a chance to move.) Truth be told I would be fine with it if Rank 1 Audacity gave the full -50% CC duration. Sure it will be harder to kill things for my burg, but I'll deal with it.

Originally Posted by Derpon

I'll raise you one

Originally Posted by Macgregor1821

I'll raise you one

Finally, an excuse to use my favorite face palm gif...

Originally Posted by Mystarr

Burgs are not the easy mode that many people think they are, but they are still a very good class. (Far from nerfed.)

A few suggestions for the OP:

- Never go to the moors without plenty of coffee. Coffee and DiTE are your best friend vs kiting. You can also use hips offensively to get 10s worth of unslowed run speed to close the gap and hit your opponent with a big from stealth hit.

- Hobbit stealth is on a separate cooldown from burg stealth. It is a long cooldown, but it can be handy to throw off multiple trackers. Stealth - get tracked - immediately hobbit stealth to break track - get tracked - use burg stealth (its prob off its 10s cooldown now) - get tracked - unstealth and hips - etc. You can throw off a lot of back to back tracks. (Note: You should be somewhere else on the map by now. If you havent left the original spot you are asking to get killed.)

- Unless you are in the middle of a creep raid or surrounded by hostile NPCs the correct response to being tracked is to immediately mount up. Ride away for 10s. Dismount, stealth, and change directions.

- As a burg you at least get the courtesy of a "you feel as though you are being followed" message before a warg pack kills you. On a non-stealth class you would just die with no warning. It's the moors, you're going to die.

- Yes our stuns are less effective... vs rank 6+ creeps that have rank 7 audacity. That still leaves plenty of low ranked creeps out in the moors that will die before a single stun wears off. I actually welcome the reduction in CC duration. (I also play creep side and its no fun to die without ever getting a chance to move.) Truth be told I would be fine with it if Rank 1 Audacity gave the full -50% CC duration. Sure it will be harder to kill things for my burg, but I'll deal with it.

http://dailystats.theblackappendage....adden/Merridan

good advice nice rank but it looks like you dont play much any more why?

must be a creep?

PS> hobbit stealth is a 1 hour cool down i am tracked 10 times a min.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

http://dailystats.theblackappendage....adden/Merridan

good advice nice rank but it looks like you dont play much any more why?

must be a creep?

PS> hobbit stealth is a 1 hour cool down i am tracked 10 times a min.

Once I hit rank 10 I decided to dust off my spider and rank it for a while.

http://dailystats.theblackappendage....adden/Celebdan

Several reasons:
- The amount of renown it will take to get rank 11 on my burg will almost get my spider from rank 8 to rank 10

- When I rank my spider he gets new skills and battle field promotions

- When I rank my burg I get a new cloak...

- Since audacity is account wide, I can earn the armor for my burg while I rank my spider

- The new spider changes are a lot of fun. (I can actually fight things without dying in 5 seconds now.)

I have only one answer to the OP...

*facepaw*

I'm r6 on my burg, decent but not great, but yeah... wargs annoy the heck out of me, because I can't do anything to get away. If I can't kill the warg (e.g., because he's in a pack, or because he manages to out-pot me), then he will eventually get me.. it may just take a while wearing off my long cooldowns.

Originally Posted by Reillan

I'm r6 on my burg, decent but not great, but yeah... wargs annoy the heck out of me, because I can't do anything to get away. If I can't kill the warg (e.g., because he's in a pack, or because he manages to out-pot me), then he will eventually get me.. it may just take a while wearing off my long cooldowns.

They need to make hobbit stealth add a pasive that makes it so you can't be tracked. well you can only be tracked bt lotro store tracking pots. no in game skills or in game pots. Burgs are supose to be hobbits? why dos the man race have all the advantages?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

They need to make hobbit stealth add a pasive that makes it so you can't be tracked. well you can only be tracked bt lotro store tracking pots. no in game skills or in game pots. Burgs are supose to be hobbits? why dos the man race have all the advantages?

I play both on a few servers and man everything dominates the moors - BW, E, etc. but I still wouldn't say man burgs have the advantages, they get tracked out the wazoo by BAs and the man heal isn't scaled.

It doesn't always work but i've successfully feined death surrounded by a large group of creeps without exploiting a couple times or lasted long enough to type in OOC and have a raid of freeps or large group ride up and squash my potential killers.

I once made Lexaburg manheal with only 10% morale down at Grams and KB'd Jason at HH 5 times in one day 1 vs 1 (lucky) and being man burgs didn't save them pre-RoI.

If you look at the top ranked burgs on all the servers, they're not all man burgs and their ratings aren't much worse or better than the man burgs.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

Let me preface this post by acknowledging that Burgs were a bit OP in moors a year or so ago (just a bit, nothing like Mini's are now).

Today was a bit of a last straw for me with this class in moors. I logged in, ran to EC (Imladris doesn't have full fraids/craids 24/7). Wargs tracked me. Not unusual, This has been possible for a while now. I still don't agree with this skill, since this tracking skill/consumable has NO ROLL ON STEALTH LEVEL and will essentially reveal me to the tracker 100% of the time. as far as I'm concerned, thats OP, but I digress...

I ran to EC, got tracked. Not a huge problem as a solo burg, I'll just run back around, stay moving, go in EC maybe, and re-stealth again. Except as soon as I re-stealth, I suddenly get popped OUT of stealth. A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth. This wasn't a reveal-to-him situation, I was pulled completely out of stealth.

So what exactly should I be doing as a burg in the moors to survive? I can't use CC that much, the burg doesn't have anything to keep mobs away from me that can't be potted by the creeps. This is in contrast to the BA or the Spider who have applied-at-range or AOE slows that are quite potent. So Mischief is out, I can't use it because I get no survival options that are worth anything (even conjunction dazes are pottable).

I can't use Quiet Knife, because I can't stay in stealth, wargs simply screw with me and there's nothing I can do. BA's get an ungodly stealth detect bonus that takes a lot of gear-finagling to even match. The warg tracking skill reveals me to them with no roll on my invested stealth level (footpad is useless in part because of this), their skill howl of unnerving simply pops me out of stealth completely now, without revealing them, and if that isn't enough, their in-stealth speed is now SUPERIOR to burgs because of their footspeed bonus skill. As any real moors burg knows, speed in stealth is more important than stealth level, because with superior speed you move past enemies before they get a second chance to roll on detection.

And, btw, Quiet Knife-traited surprise strikes are something that creeps do not fear anymore at all. They still do hefty damage, but a 15-16k War Leader laughs at a 4k SS. To get that high of a surprise strike you have to have high-end-raiding-gear, not something that everyone can achieve. Considering all the skill-setup and timing it requires to achieve such a strike, it's underpowered, imho. This situation is worse when you consider that there is no good gear combination that can get you 6.5k morale or more, and 3+k surprise strike hits on creeps. In order to get a 4k hit, you have to sacrifice a lot of morale, which significantly hurts your survivability.

What exactly is the direction I should take my burg if I'm trying to survive? I confess I can still 1v1 just about any class in the moors and at least hold my own most of the time. But 1V1 is not what happens in the moors, and other stealth squishies get worthwhile "get-me-out-of-here" skills (warg sprint, Hunter DF). However, there are no "oh-####-survival-skills" for burgs (at least hobbit burgs) that work anymore. Warg track tracks through HIPS, so that's worthless. Wargs have that sprint skill that lasts so long there's no way to catch them once they're out of riddle range. Spiders just lay down webs to slow and kite, in fact just about every creep knows to kite burgs, because we have no skills that can slow them from significant range.

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not. No response suggesting otherwise will be listened to. I've played lots of PvP for many years in many games, so I know whats up. I've invested a lot of time in this main, but I'll be forced to abandon this class in the moors if Turbine is intent on beefing up wargs and spiders further (as they've declared they are doing). I would appreciate suggestions, but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

You're an idiot.

Originally Posted by Blakgut

You're an idiot.

no you are im not breaking 2k on WL with audacity. its a joke out there on a burg. Try figting a spider thats is not and idiot or Defiler.


burgs are the weakest freep in the moors. I would go so far as to say the burg would even be the weakest creep in the moors if it was one.

it is plain garbage what they did to us once more.

This class has been on a steady downward spiral since moria. it finaly crashed, Good job dev's.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

no you are im not breaking 2k on WL with audacity. its a joke out there on a burg. Try figting a spider thats is not and idiot or Defiler.


burgs are the weakest freep in the moors. I would go so far as to say the burg would even be the weakest creep in the moors if it was one.

it is plain garbage what they did to us once more.

This class has been on a steady downward spiral since moria. it finaly crashed, Good job dev's.

I agree. Burgs have never had it good and have been in a bad spot for a very long time. I really wish those devs would show them some love.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

no you are im not breaking 2k on WL with audacity. its a joke out there on a burg. Try figting a spider thats is not and idiot or Defiler.


burgs are the weakest freep in the moors. I would go so far as to say the burg would even be the weakest creep in the moors if it was one.

it is plain garbage what they did to us once more.

This class has been on a steady downward spiral since moria. it finaly crashed, Good job dev's.

When did they start selling crack in the LOTRO store?

My 2 cent to this. I have played a burg as main toon in the moors for some time now, 90% solo and 10% raids or duos. The diffrences that i have seen has been huge through a few years/updates. Most updates has been pretty fair, Sometimes things just go a bit wrong tho. But before i start to explain why burgs have pulled the short straw now i will first say that i agree with the warg updates, the BA updates and even part agree with spider update. and I will also add i play creep basicly as much as i play freep.

Sens update i went back to creep on overtime sens getting comms on creep is hugely easier then on freep, map deeds and quests give tons more on creep then on freep. i then use them to get freep armour i went on my r4 warg sens i only messed around very lightly with it a long time ago. (didnt want to play stealth on creep as i played it on freep) so i got a cuple of comms together anf gor the new shadow stance, and off i went.

Fist to Gv sens map was red, on my r4 warg i managed to kill a warden, a few hunters and a rk, then got zerged and moved on. got in to the main fight, switched to flayer stance and popped around and dotted a few freeps while fireing off my healing howls and enjoying my 7k armour rating with 7 secs repeatable heals. i did get hit a few times and at that time i used sprint out of the fight, healed up very fast in flayer, back to stealth and dot again and back in flayer over and over. went from a horrible 900 something rating to 1500 in one evening on a r4 solo wargy.... i made r5+ aswell.. so over 9k inf in a few hours..

this morning i had got enough to get r6 audacity for the burg, so though, hey, lets get out there and check out the fights on burg. first, ran in to a r4 defiler. popped off Ca on him dust starteling twist and aim- SS. he basicly outhealed my dps and ran in circles untill a cuple of wargs came to his aid and bit my backside to bits in no less then 4 seconds...

not to give up and as i only had 5 more spider to kill for t1 deed i though, hey, lets find some of those spiders. seen one in the back in the main fight. Location-CA aim-SS dust stun respionce skills and gambler strike.. on a r6 spider, and nearly #### all happend to him.... me on the other hand has 4 stacks of dots ticking fast fast fast.. (new armour dont clear dots in hips so no wat to clear besides using ring 20 min cd, so did that 3 dots gone) only to get them back in 2 secs, lol. spider them popped in ground and healed fully while i stayed dropping in morale, but this stage more creeps had seen me and went to say hello. i can safely say, that even if the spider was solo with me, he could now have popped out of the ground and webbed then dotted some more and killed me. altho this time a reaver hit me from 40% to death.. i have 8k normal morale, i think he got about 3k something off me in one hit.

Back on the game strutting my stuff down from spawn... tracked.. tracked tracked tracked tracked tracked... ###!!! Ba's WL and wargs what can it be,? sens al creeps besides Defilers and reaver can track race of man burgs (point to OP). up on horse to get away rooted by spider. off horse, potted and riddled spider, he potted webbed dot dot dot, i used the reset skill, hipsed though web and started my rotation, by this stage he burrowed and healed. got tracked and gang ##### by 3 wargs...

then i went to check forum to see if anyone else has seen that sens the last 3 updates, burgs has continued to get nerfed in comparason to other classes. i see this when i play creep. i dont go for champs or cappys or guardians, sens its nearly impossible to get them down, and if you manage they still have sprint skills to piss off in to npc's or just simply run away from you. i avoid minis because of massive dps increse mixed with self heals. RKs can now just stand still, heal and the use steady hands to swith to full dps and blow you up. no i truely stay away from them all. hunters needed the buff in the penatratin shot, alto on puppy i at times avoid some of the better once, nah, on puppy i rather go for a Burg or hunter then any other freep. softer armout and shockingly, after the CC nerf with audacity, they cant CC me at all, lol. at the most 4 secs. which i can pot.

Looking at creeps, i do not go for Defilers, i cant dps them down, its just not possible after r6. some burgs might not agree. please give me some tips WL i avoid aswell, sens i cant cc them to slow heals or get in to possition anymore they can outheal my dps. BA's can track me and spot me, but are still the easiest targets.

ill leave my wall off text with this, i really feel sorry for lowranks and new creeps. with this update, us burgs will not let you pass, sens your the only once we can kill now. What alot of people seem to forget is burgs are solo targets, we dont have AOE or any ranged damage. we have to be up and personal. And with the dps beeing as it is on burg, we need cc to fight. we have 2 hits to do damage, then its over. after the 2 hits, we need possitional damage. so when we cant cc anymore thanks to new stat Audacity, things will be hard for us. So in advance, sorry to the new creeps that will end up beeing camped over and over. but main fights is over for burgs, so we have to take the devs sentece and pass it to you. sorry.

Burgs might have stealth, but can be tracked very easy, and the once who cant track us, defielr we cant kill.. sum is , reavers we can still supprice, other we avoid or get tracked by.. so whats stealth good for BUT, ill stick with it, never changing class, its the most fun class to play in and out of the moors. times will change and we will soon be back in the action. untill then, ill practice my -Get the F away from the zerg skills.

Burgs need a Buff next update!

You realise that you're complaining that your burg couldn't kill a creep (among more of them apparently) using only 5 skills? It sounds normal to be able to terminate a creep in 3 seconds while it's around others and survive like a boss? Burglars have a ton of skills, I'm sorry that moors burgs only use 5 or 6 of them but I'm also relieved cause they're not using their full potential because if they did there wouldn't be a creep left standing.

Originally Posted by Despotis

You realise that you're complaining that your burg couldn't kill a creep (among more of them apparently) using only 5 skills? It sounds normal to be able to terminate a creep in 3 seconds while it's around others and survive like a boss? Burglars have a ton of skills, I'm sorry that moors burgs only use 5 or 6 of them but I'm also relieved cause they're not using their full potential because if they did there wouldn't be a creep left standing.

you must be pretty messed up if you got that from my post. i didnt know someone couldnt be that, well not going to go there. but.. ill explain further then.

We do have alot of skills, and once upon a time... we could use them also.. if you want to sit there and say i dont know my class etc, l2p etc etc etc then do so. but iof you want to understand the issue then ill explain.

some of the most essential things when you play a burg is to know, you can only hit one target at the time. (you can ofc riddle another or trait aoe dust which can slow 3 targets at the cost of loosing other trait) so to keep it simple ill explain to you in this way.

TnG 5 min cd(aka touch and go) evade skill. is after a previous update where finess was introdused basicly pointless to use against anything else the BA's. And even then its pretty ####. Sens Finess cancels out your evade if the creep has the higher finess(which after r7-8 a creep usually has. or you have to cancell more of your dps or stats to up it only to lose something else)

KO 2 min cd(knifes Out) 10 secs of redused melee damage, useless against defiles, ba's ,weavers and WL's sens they use ranged damage or tactical.

CJ's 5 min cd (conjunctions) can now be potted sens a few updates ago and dosnt let you heal or damage anymore. so with audasity its a 2 sec stun.

Trick-starteling twist. Pottable aswell, use to be 8 secs and is now 4 secs stun. altho most creeps would stun turn this one, it use to be one of the essential stuns so make use of some possitional dps.

any other trick used only as a debuss as dust would be used to slow is still useable, even if its only 50% of the original time. just means you have to continue to appy them more often.

HIPS 10 min cd(hide in plain sight) has also become pretty pointless now. the old armour before audacity used to clear pottable dots when we used hips, altho we still kept the non pottable. the new armour does not clear any dots, and sens the dots are lasting longer then 10 secs hips will not save you anymore, and you will die from dots instead. this is a huge factor for solo Burgs as myself. i didnt use hips to run off, but rather to cure dots when they got to much. and now when a spider stacks dots on you, its a huge diffrence.

Our dps is based on 2 hits, E.G if im in stealth i get a crit of, before update 2.2-3k damage, not after update i get around 1.4-2.2 damage. then i can use aim (90sec cd) to get abother crit with about the same damage (one beeing a DoT). which leaves me with about previous 4.5-6k damage and now after update 3-4.5k damage. this is ofc not bad at all, but if you then take in to account that the rest of my fight ill hit for 200-300 hits on a creep, with audaciy 7 as i know one have i averaged about 15-250... this on a creep with 12k+ morale on average. some WL 18k+ and some wargs or BA's 10k+.

now... if you do the math. i sneak up (in im lucky enough to not be tracked) and smash full force in to a creep on 12k and my barrage of fury results in 4.5 k. that leave the creep with 7.5k average, this i have to chop away at with my 200 hits, and some skills have 5-10 sec cd.. between the 3 damaging hits i actully have.

now think of it this way. if your fighting a warg in flayer, he can heal kite, a WL can heal and so can a defiler. a BA will use his MT to avoid hits and also have the skill -Get a Grip- a average of 3.5k heal with 2min cd!!! lol the reaver is the only creep with no real heal skill unless its after kills ofc, which in that case wargs also have a heal for solo or in group, spider can eat the spider baby or just pop in to groupnd and heal fully, and also has a after kill heal for aprox 3.5-4k heal 1 min cd!!!

so... i think what is beeing said here is that we could always be killed before, and we could always kill creeps before. now after the update the dps will be seriously flawed for burgs thanks to the cc nerf. we NEED possitional damage to do damage!!! if you never played burg in the moors you might not get that, but im hoping you might trust me on that.

so. if i manage to hit a creep 4.5k and now work on his remaining 7.5 k, while he uses heal skills and kites me, and my stuns slows etc dosnt work as they did, well then you are right in what you said. im drying because i CANT kill creeps anymore. its not a matter of skill, its just a fact.

i know many creeps hate burgs and i understand that, some burgs did roam in packs and gank same creep over and over. this was ofc a pretty sad way of playing imho. but what the devs now have essetially done is to force burgs in to packs. this will take the fun out of the game for many as there is alot of freep burg players that love the solo roam and non-camping.

i have always gone for all ranks and all creeps, and this update will force me to be a bully and go for lowbies and group up to gank solo's. so all your hating on the burg class has just made it worse. the good burgs will now group, the #### once who always grouped will just keep doing what they did. and ofc you have some that will swithc to RK's or minis.

My point would be, if you take away the CC from burgs, then add dps. or remove the possitional requrement and give us good dps even when not behind target. give us better resists or something. but for now, the class has been killed slowly but surely in the past 3 or 4 updates. this lates one just killed it totally.

now go on and flame and go to the l2p bullcrap you thow out as defence. but know this, skilled players could always kill burgs before. just now even a ####ty one can own a burg. dont know about you but i always want to see a mic of classes on both sides, but after update you ahve all creeps on as they all have got buffs sens update 5-6. freep side you will have champs and minis mostly.

time to get back to the grind. ./hug

You should start factoring in the fact that creeps can only pot 1 cc effect and as a burg you can apply more of those and also that burgs have the best dps in the game in positional damage and a very respectable dps otherwise.

Originally Posted by Despotis

You should start factoring in the fact that creeps can only pot 1 cc effect and as a burg you can apply more of those and also that burgs have the best dps in the game in positional damage and a very respectable dps otherwise.

you completely dont get it... it just flyes by your eyes, and your set on not accepting fact, but make your own.. if we had the best positional dps in game ,which we actully didnt have, but we had good dps if we had position while red traited, but if red traited we didnt have the cc. but thats besideds the facts. you clearly never played a proper burg. so.. ill give up arguing with you, but before i do, id like to point out what YOU said. we have several cc skills.. and i pointed out, they are now useless.. one of the things i mentioned in my thread. YOU said best positional dps, which is now useless, because our CC dosnt work!!!!! so we cant be in position!!!! read the damn post and try to understand what im saying. you just made yourself look really smart in some 10 years old f2p creep players eyes but for those who knows the burg class and have played it, you just said bla bla bla burgs are OP bla bla bla, because i never been able to kill them bla bla bla i dont read posts bla bla bla i just hate on burgs bla bla bla.

anyone that can say, well the burgs work percetly now with audacity intruduced and the new creep buffs to dots etc is either a dev kiss #### or a troll. thats beeing honest.

Your poor sustained DPS is either a lack of good movement or proper rotation. Experienced burgs do exceptional DPS even outside their stealth/aim auto crits (ie the ones who I 1v1 consistently without using stealth).

Also, a few more things:

TNG is far from useless. High finesse doesn't negate 50% evade. While it has been somewhat reduced in efficacy through finesse, BA's VT and the buff to WL tactical DPS since ROI, the failure of the skill in most circumstances is more due to timing. For example, using the skill late in a fight against an experienced warg/reaver means they would have a veritable stack of dots up on you and all they then need to do is outmove you for the duration or just muscle you down if they have a significant lead already. Protip: if you're gunna use it, do it *early* since 30s is a long duration for such a potent survivability skill.

Audacity does not effect the duration of debuffs, so 75 second tricks from range are still possible.

You're saying that HIPS is now useless because you're not using the old 6 PvP bonus? First of all, no. Second of all, Turbine gives all freeps the lovely opportunity to swap gear/weapons during combat with relative ease; especially in this case where you're activating a stealth skill.

While stuns may not have the potentially major (read:OP) impact as they did before U6, they still play an essential role in interrupting your opponents movement/rotation. Not to mention the fact that stunning a burg in a relatively even fight will typically result in painful death for the creep, so I dont know what you're complaining about.

Lastly, burgs got some very potent bonuses on the new PvMP sets. Stacking dev buff (up to +15% after 3 SS in a row), 10 second silence on a 15(?) second cooldown and the AoE bleed from KO. A burg spamming that silence on WLs has won countless group fights since the update and general acquisition of gear.

If there's anything else I can contradict in that post, I missed it for obvious reasons. The only truthful points which have been used to argue for the nerfing of burgs is that it is now hard for them to solo 3 creeps where one of them is a healer.