Thread: Have I missed something? why are (hobbit) burgs being completely nerfed in moors?

Let me preface this post by acknowledging that Burgs were a bit OP in moors a year or so ago (just a bit, nothing like Mini's are now).

Today was a bit of a last straw for me with this class in moors. I logged in, ran to EC (Imladris doesn't have full fraids/craids 24/7). Wargs tracked me. Not unusual, This has been possible for a while now. I still don't agree with this skill, since this tracking skill/consumable has NO ROLL ON STEALTH LEVEL and will essentially reveal me to the tracker 100% of the time. as far as I'm concerned, thats OP, but I digress...

I ran to EC, got tracked. Not a huge problem as a solo burg, I'll just run back around, stay moving, go in EC maybe, and re-stealth again. Except as soon as I re-stealth, I suddenly get popped OUT of stealth. A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth. This wasn't a reveal-to-him situation, I was pulled completely out of stealth.

So what exactly should I be doing as a burg in the moors to survive? I can't use CC that much, the burg doesn't have anything to keep mobs away from me that can't be potted by the creeps. This is in contrast to the BA or the Spider who have applied-at-range or AOE slows that are quite potent. So Mischief is out, I can't use it because I get no survival options that are worth anything (even conjunction dazes are pottable).

I can't use Quiet Knife, because I can't stay in stealth, wargs simply screw with me and there's nothing I can do. BA's get an ungodly stealth detect bonus that takes a lot of gear-finagling to even match. The warg tracking skill reveals me to them with no roll on my invested stealth level (footpad is useless in part because of this), their skill howl of unnerving simply pops me out of stealth completely now, without revealing them, and if that isn't enough, their in-stealth speed is now SUPERIOR to burgs because of their footspeed bonus skill. As any real moors burg knows, speed in stealth is more important than stealth level, because with superior speed you move past enemies before they get a second chance to roll on detection.

And, btw, Quiet Knife-traited surprise strikes are something that creeps do not fear anymore at all. They still do hefty damage, but a 15-16k War Leader laughs at a 4k SS. To get that high of a surprise strike you have to have high-end-raiding-gear, not something that everyone can achieve. Considering all the skill-setup and timing it requires to achieve such a strike, it's underpowered, imho. This situation is worse when you consider that there is no good gear combination that can get you 6.5k morale or more, and 3+k surprise strike hits on creeps. In order to get a 4k hit, you have to sacrifice a lot of morale, which significantly hurts your survivability.

What exactly is the direction I should take my burg if I'm trying to survive? I confess I can still 1v1 just about any class in the moors and at least hold my own most of the time. But 1V1 is not what happens in the moors, and other stealth squishies get worthwhile "get-me-out-of-here" skills (warg sprint, Hunter DF). However, there are no "oh-####-survival-skills" for burgs (at least hobbit burgs) that work anymore. Warg track tracks through HIPS, so that's worthless. Wargs have that sprint skill that lasts so long there's no way to catch them once they're out of riddle range. Spiders just lay down webs to slow and kite, in fact just about every creep knows to kite burgs, because we have no skills that can slow them from significant range.

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not. No response suggesting otherwise will be listened to. I've played lots of PvP for many years in many games, so I know whats up. I've invested a lot of time in this main, but I'll be forced to abandon this class in the moors if Turbine is intent on beefing up wargs and spiders further (as they've declared they are doing). I would appreciate suggestions, but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

I don't get it, are Hobbits overwhelmingly different from any other burg?

Originally Posted by WanderHeart

I don't get it, are Hobbits overwhelmingly different from any other burg?

I think its the fact, that wargs can track hobbits.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not....I would appreciate suggestions, but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

You are the first burg I've ever heard say that. You must have no clue what you are doing. I would go through and point out all the things you could/should be doing, but honestly creeps on your server are better off with you being clueless.

A burg complaining about being underpowered compared to a weaver? Seriously?

So... you're complaining you can't hug EC against several spam tracking creeps and live?

### are you doing in EC in the first place? Camp rez circles for noobs lol

Could be worse, could be BAs spam tracking you, TnG is useless for ranked BAs. I've thought this for a while, higher stealth level should modify something for the tracking. So for example, having a higher stealth level will lower track range or effectiveness. Why is it 15 people can track 1 target at the same time with a 100% chance to find you? Stealth level should affect this problem in some way. Tracking issues aside, not sure I agree with the underpowered statement, but yeah, one slow and burgs are usually fodder against a number of creeps. WTB more mitigation and still keep damage, guards anyone?

I have posted gripes for years on the burg forum about stuff like this.


The most common reason people play or start a burg is they feel they are going to be able to go out into the moors and be a formidable freep class. Nothing is further from the truth, most don't make it to r5.

The track problem is comical even after hips in combat I am tracked with store pots and have no counter store item. sure i would love to toss dimes @ turbine all day for a drop track pot, but they will not let me.

Considering how much wargs have spent on me in the lat few month with all the store brands and in combat store tracks I would love to chip in with a few dimes of my own. just 2 nights ago i had a record of 11 in combat store tracks post HiPs that was a whole $1.10 in less than2 second. I am better than pay link on google advertisements keep me and my kind happy and give us the tools to toss dimes @ you also.

PS you hear about the changes to our stuns? 50% lesss!

Originally Posted by Caderly

You are the first burg I've ever heard say that. You must have no clue what you are doing. I would go through and point out all the things you could/should be doing, but honestly creeps on your server are better off with you being clueless.

<----------

points to me I am no mini no champ i am a freep that likes to stay away from BA's

Uhm... AoE has been popping stuff out of stealth since... like... ever?

Nothing new really.

"Can't use CC much" ?? *boggle* right... you've got the 2nd most powerful CC skill in the game!

And for survival skills... ever heard of Touch and Go? Hide in Plain Sight? Ready and Able? 3 skills just about any class would love to have.

Here are a couple thoughts for you...

1: Roll a non-stealth creep and see how well you have it as a Burglar. You talk as if it is so overpowered for anything to be pulling you out of stealth, yet you don't seem to understand how powerful stealth in general is. Go against some stealth and see how it is.

2: Why are you so worried about dying? Get away from EC and go fight, kill, and die. Don't be a star hugger. You are *the* most solo-friendly class in the game.

You really sound like someone who has only played the moors as a Burglar. Your perspective is a bit skewed because of that. You think Burgs are bad because they can get tracked and killed. What about non-stealth classes? In that same situation, they don't even need to be tracked at all, just killed.

No offense OP but your post comes off as someone who is new the moors. Probably not your intent. Then you lost me when you said hunters have an oh cr@p skill. Just because you don't seem to know/understand ... let me help you. Unlike burgs and wargs that have skills like hips or touch and go..... the hunter skill DF does not work in combat in the moors. So, in your example, when the warg pops a hunter from stealth, we have to fight it out and usually die. Oh, and since you said you win most 1v1 I'm not sure what you are complaining about.

Stealth can be a crutch and many players use it poorly, even veterans. Play as though you could be detected at any point in time; give yourself enough space to escape or restealth, or close in quickly enough to take away any benefit your target has in tracking you. Playing a non-stealth class should give you a better idea of what distances are safe while you're out of stealth. Furthermore, wargs don't typically burn trackers without a good reason. Hanging around highly trafficked areas like EC automatically puts you in the hot pot.

Wargs have similar problems with hunters, except that hunters have range, camo, and ooc speed to their advantage whereas a warg has ooc speed and tracks to their advantage over burgs. A smart warg uses his opponent's tracks to move the hunter into bad situations. Something similar can be done with a burg; especially because burglars have great combat advantages one-to-one against wargs.

I suggest you try playing a warg for awhile and see the difference between the two sides. If you happen to run into a smart burglar, consider it a good learning experience for what you should do against wargs when on your burg.

If you can win every 1v1 you put your mind to, then what, exactly is the problem? If you consider your class to be underpowered yet you can still beat any creep, what the heck does that make the creep classes?

What about burgs who pop up anywhere and kill creeps in 5 seconds?.

The only "point" is you want to move freely by the moors and don't be tracked by wargs.

Originally Posted by Brayden

Here are a couple thoughts for you...

1: Roll a non-stealth creep and see how well you have it as a Burglar. You talk as if it is so overpowered for anything to be pulling you out of stealth, yet you don't seem to understand how powerful stealth in general is. Go against some stealth and see how it is.

2: Why are you so worried about dying? Get away from EC and go fight, kill, and die. Don't be a star hugger. You are *the* most solo-friendly class in the game.

You really sound like someone who has only played the moors as a Burglar. Your perspective is a bit skewed because of that. You think Burgs are bad because they can get tracked and killed. What about non-stealth classes? In that same situation, they don't even need to be tracked at all, just killed.

Everything you need to know is in this post. By the way you are speaking, OP, it's evident you have not played creepside...probably at all. You truly don't know how good you have it as a burg, or any freep for that matter, until you've played creepside. You complain about your 4k surprise strike, but the highest i've seen any Warg hit is just over 1k. Sound fair? I just had to say something when I saw this thread because it is such a complete and utter joke hearing a Freep (especially a burglar) complain about their place in the moors, right now. Really. Trust me on this one, i've been playing out in the Ettenmoors for years, on both sides, and I'm not trying to jump on your case, I'm merely stating fact.

Also, just because you play other PvP games doesn't necessarily make you good or "know what's up", because in this case, you obviously don't.

Originally Posted by Brayden

You are *the* most solo-friendly class in the game.

Umm, no. Maps+stealth speed+sprint+dissapear+improve d sense prey = a far more enjoyable solo experience than burg.

Originally Posted by Laerien

What about burgs who pop up anywhere and kill creeps in 5 seconds?.

The only "point" is you want to move freely by the moors and don't be tracked by wargs.

I don't know how many times I've been killed on my creep by a rez-camping burg in stealth. Seems like burgs have it pretty good to me.

most of the burgs that run around can be seen by almost anyone from 10m

BA's are seeing you even further away.


seems like somthing hapened to stealth level in isen. and the developers view of stealth & CC is very negitive @ this point in time. Not worth leveling a burg or a cc dependent class if your goal is the moors. if you are on a populated server roll a hunter, mini, champ even captain and just zerg or find aonter game.


PS>> let me know how many burgs you see out ther epost u6


mkay good by

a burg died in the moors? hotfix needed, Turbine.

Try playing a visible class, any other class will do. Or a creep.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

I confess I can still 1v1 just about any class in the moors and at least hold my own most of the time. But 1V1 is not what happens in the moors, and other stealth squishies get worthwhile "get-me-out-of-here" skills (warg sprint, Hunter DF). However, there are no "oh-####-survival-skills" for burgs (at least hobbit burgs) that work anymore. Warg track tracks through HIPS, so that's worthless. Wargs have that sprint skill that lasts so long there's no way to catch them once they're out of riddle range. Spiders just lay down webs to slow and kite, in fact just about every creep knows to kite burgs, because we have no skills that can slow them from significant range.

So basically, your issue is that you're not invincible ?

Want to know how my reaver fares against multiple opponents, say, two 'underpowered' QK burgs ?

crit Surprise Strike - crit Surprise Strike - Dust in the Eyes - *whack* - stun - *whack* *whack* - mez - *whack* - Dev crit flashing blade - dev crit Flashing Blades. Dead in 4s while locked down from invisible players.

Think about it.

I do however believe that wargs should never have been given the ability to track from stealth (and on the move at that), then again I do believe that stealth, aka invisibility is very bad game design for PvP in the first place, it encourages ganking which in turns encourages the herd behaviour in visible players.

Originally Posted by Caderly

You are the first burg I've ever heard say that. You must have no clue what you are doing. I would go through and point out all the things you could/should be doing, but honestly creeps on your server are better off with you being clueless.

Originally Posted by Brayden

Here are a couple thoughts for you...

1: Roll a non-stealth creep and see how well you have it as a Burglar. You talk as if it is so overpowered for anything to be pulling you out of stealth, yet you don't seem to understand how powerful stealth in general is. Go against some stealth and see how it is.

2: Why are you so worried about dying? Get away from EC and go fight, kill, and die. Don't be a star hugger. You are *the* most solo-friendly class in the game.

You really sound like someone who has only played the moors as a Burglar. Your perspective is a bit skewed because of that. You think Burgs are bad because they can get tracked and killed. What about non-stealth classes? In that same situation, they don't even need to be tracked at all, just killed.

What those 2 said. Just in case you were going to shout creep bias, I play freep 98% of the time and have recently taken my burg from r6 to r7.

Originally Posted by 22Acacia

Umm, no. Maps+stealth speed+sprint+dissapear+improve d sense prey = a far more enjoyable solo experience than burg.

You missed out the inability to solo almost any well played freep.

You do realize all of that has been happening to Wargs since the dawn of time, right? I get spam tracked all the time and popped out of stealth with AOEs, etc. And Hunter track is on a 30s CD whereas Creep track is on a 1m CD. I can show you screenshots where my chat log is filled with the phrase "You feel as though you are being followed..."

Don't get me wrong, I know you're a nice fellow and not new to the moors, and also willing to fight without CDs unlike most Burgs of our server. That's exactly why I'm so surprised at this post.

As some others have suggested, maybe try playing another class apart from Burg in the moors? It really widens your perspective. Your "weaknesses" you realize are actually strengths that Creeps are just having to find ways to work around. The fact that they are working around them doesn't mean you're underpowered.

I don't mean this in the "you suk, l2p" kind of way that some others are, I sincerely mean it. Try a non-Warg Creep class, or at the very least a non-Burg Freep, in the moors and your perspective will change a lot. I didn't try another class for a while after I made my Warg, and when I did, I had to adapt my play style a ton.

You are a burglar, you are a freep, you are twice OP and therefore have absolutely no right to complain.

Try to play a non-stealth freep class and enjoy the new perspective (sic) of meeting three (four soon) times more wargs than burgs.

Keep in mind that your opponent can't pot your CC (and DR still does not work), and/or have no skill to counter it (if they have it's on CD, ofc), and/or have no crit. defence (and therefore you''ll always crit. or dev. crit.), and/or can't outspeed you, not to mention their very poor avoidance and mitigation.

You are Mesmerizing God, it's 5 years old, live with it cause you can't die.

Completely nerfed?

You say you can 1v1 just about any Creep class in the Moors and yet you say you are completely nerfed?

"I can't use CC that much"...."This is in contrast to the BA or the Spider who have applied-at-range or AOE slows that are quiet potent"...


Are you seriously trying to say that Spider CC or BA CC is more potent than Burg CC ????

Come play any Creep class on Elendilmir against some of our Burgs and you may learn a thing or two about your class. I don't care if you listen to this post or not (mainly because it doesn't come with sound) but you really should go back and read what you wrote yourself and you will realise that it's all a bit silly!

You think you've got it bad? Roll a creep. Even though I'm a spider I get tracked quite a few times, and, unless I burrow I'm screwed. Good burglars can kill me without me getting out of my stun.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

And, btw, Quiet Knife-traited surprise strikes are something that creeps do not fear anymore at all.

Lolwut .

Pardon me but when I get half my morale down in just 1 hit I don't exactly start a happy dance .

I didnt even bother reading the responses. I wish i could be a hobbit burg. You complain about wargs tracking you? Im a man burglar and i get tracked by every warg out there cuz they can just buy sense prey. On top of all the wargs tracking me already I have all the BAs AND WLs tracking me as well. Right behind the freaver the most played classes on my server are BA>warg>WL. Instead of posting about how much you hate your hobbit burglar you should be posting about how happy you are about not rolling a man.

"A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth" - OP

It doesn't do that, lol. Perhaps you mean Bloody Maul?

Originally Posted by CarltheRed

"A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth" - OP

It doesn't do that, lol. Perhaps you mean Bloody Maul?

I assume he meant dire howl, which does knock burgs out of stealth (don't know about howl of unerving, I would have expected it to do the same...are you sure it doesn't?). But Dire Howl does actually pull the warg out of stealth too.

If the fear from Howl of Unnerving pops a stealthed foe out of stealth than possibly was that.

Originally Posted by CarltheRed

If the fear from Howl of Unnerving pops a stealthed foe out of stealth than possibly was that.

no...it doesnt matter if the fear part hits or not...howl of unnerving will always pop out stealted freeps...it also wont put wargs in combat and wont pop them outve stealth

Originally Posted by mattg18

no...it doesnt matter if the fear part hits or not...howl of unnerving will always pop out stealted freeps...it also wont put wargs in combat and wont pop them outve stealth

Correct, nothing beats the panic is causes when used against a mounted fraid. If that Fear hits (feels like it happens far less than the stated 25% of the time) and a few people drop off their horses...they freak out and the hunter spam tracks begin.

With U6 I doubt it will be much of an issue though, the weak debuff (-600 b/p/e) from Howl of Unnerving combined with unreliable fear application will see it ignored in place of The Element of Surprise or Enhanced Skill: Disappear.

Originally Posted by LonelyLobster

I didnt even bother reading the responses. I wish i could be a hobbit burg. You complain about wargs tracking you? Im a man burglar and i get tracked by every warg out there cuz they can just buy sense prey. On top of all the wargs tracking me already I have all the BAs AND WLs tracking me as well. Right behind the freaver the most played classes on my server are BA>warg>WL. Instead of posting about how much you hate your hobbit burglar you should be posting about how happy you are about not rolling a man.

Word. On my server, hips is next to a worthless skill with store tracks.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not. No response suggesting otherwise will be listened to. I've played lots of PvP for many years in many games, so I know whats up.

If you've played pvp in many games for many years, then one thing you probably already know is that you always have room for improvement. It doesn't matter who you are, bad or not, you can always get better. So, that's my advice to you. Burglars have it better than most classes, and you can up your trick range to give you a range advantage for your slows. That said, Burglars definitely have it rough against spiders. People from both sides burn store items and potions, and whilst I applaud you for not doing the same, it is something you're going to have to deal with. Just like the rest of us.

If burglars didn't have it rough against spiders, they wouldn't have it rough against anyone. BA's can be a pain, but you can lock them down long enough to kill or mostly kill them through or before their Moving Target is popped. Come out of stealth with cunning attack or a Surprise Strike, then slow them and hit Advanced Startling Twist for an 8s stun. If they pot that, Riddle them for another 5 seconds of a stun - this one unpottable. Don't forget that you can pot stuns and dazes as well, which is everything that a spider does and a lot of what wargs do. Defilers and wargs have fears, sure, but you can get fear pots form the barter vendors in the Moors.

Back to the BA's. Even if they start to kite you, with the 10% in-combat speed coffee gives, you can catch them without much problem. Your in-combat speed can be 110% the whole night, and your slow is 25%. A BA's speed is 100% and they slow for 40%. But if they have any intention of actually shooting you, they have to turn, which slows them down.

Recently, any Freep has had it easier than Creeps have in the Moors. Next update, it'll probably be the other way around. Everything you've complained about is old news. And it's not just hobbit burglars that have that rough, now. It's every class and race, because wargs can buy their tracking skill and it's upgrade. Hobbit burglars actually have it better than Man burglars, because Strength of Morale hasn't scaled for years. Hobbit-Silence is a lot better.

Are we playing pool? If not then why the QQ.

Ew, that was extremely bad.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

Let me preface this post by acknowledging that Burgs were a bit OP in moors a year or so ago (just a bit, nothing like Mini's are now).

Today was a bit of a last straw for me with this class in moors. I logged in, ran to EC (Imladris doesn't have full fraids/craids 24/7). Wargs tracked me. Not unusual, This has been possible for a while now. I still don't agree with this skill, since this tracking skill/consumable has NO ROLL ON STEALTH LEVEL and will essentially reveal me to the tracker 100% of the time. as far as I'm concerned, thats OP, but I digress...

I ran to EC, got tracked. Not a huge problem as a solo burg, I'll just run back around, stay moving, go in EC maybe, and re-stealth again. Except as soon as I re-stealth, I suddenly get popped OUT of stealth. A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth. This wasn't a reveal-to-him situation, I was pulled completely out of stealth.

So what exactly should I be doing as a burg in the moors to survive? I can't use CC that much, the burg doesn't have anything to keep mobs away from me that can't be potted by the creeps. This is in contrast to the BA or the Spider who have applied-at-range or AOE slows that are quite potent. So Mischief is out, I can't use it because I get no survival options that are worth anything (even conjunction dazes are pottable).

I can't use Quiet Knife, because I can't stay in stealth, wargs simply screw with me and there's nothing I can do. BA's get an ungodly stealth detect bonus that takes a lot of gear-finagling to even match. The warg tracking skill reveals me to them with no roll on my invested stealth level (footpad is useless in part because of this), their skill howl of unnerving simply pops me out of stealth completely now, without revealing them, and if that isn't enough, their in-stealth speed is now SUPERIOR to burgs because of their footspeed bonus skill. As any real moors burg knows, speed in stealth is more important than stealth level, because with superior speed you move past enemies before they get a second chance to roll on detection.

And, btw, Quiet Knife-traited surprise strikes are something that creeps do not fear anymore at all. They still do hefty damage, but a 15-16k War Leader laughs at a 4k SS. To get that high of a surprise strike you have to have high-end-raiding-gear, not something that everyone can achieve. Considering all the skill-setup and timing it requires to achieve such a strike, it's underpowered, imho. This situation is worse when you consider that there is no good gear combination that can get you 6.5k morale or more, and 3+k surprise strike hits on creeps. In order to get a 4k hit, you have to sacrifice a lot of morale, which significantly hurts your survivability.

What exactly is the direction I should take my burg if I'm trying to survive? I confess I can still 1v1 just about any class in the moors and at least hold my own most of the time. But 1V1 is not what happens in the moors, and other stealth squishies get worthwhile "get-me-out-of-here" skills (warg sprint, Hunter DF). However, there are no "oh-####-survival-skills" for burgs (at least hobbit burgs) that work anymore. Warg track tracks through HIPS, so that's worthless. Wargs have that sprint skill that lasts so long there's no way to catch them once they're out of riddle range. Spiders just lay down webs to slow and kite, in fact just about every creep knows to kite burgs, because we have no skills that can slow them from significant range.

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not. No response suggesting otherwise will be listened to. I've played lots of PvP for many years in many games, so I know whats up. I've invested a lot of time in this main, but I'll be forced to abandon this class in the moors if Turbine is intent on beefing up wargs and spiders further (as they've declared they are doing). I would appreciate suggestions, but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

Burgs are still monstrously overpowered. You're doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Burgs are still monstrously overpowered. You're doing it wrong.

I feel like a nerd saying it, but qft.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

Let me preface this post by acknowledging that Burgs were a bit OP in moors a year or so ago (just a bit, nothing like Mini's are now).

Today was a bit of a last straw for me with this class in moors. I logged in, ran to EC (Imladris doesn't have full fraids/craids 24/7). Wargs tracked me. Not unusual, This has been possible for a while now. I still don't agree with this skill, since this tracking skill/consumable has NO ROLL ON STEALTH LEVEL and will essentially reveal me to the tracker 100% of the time. as far as I'm concerned, thats OP, but I digress...

I ran to EC, got tracked. Not a huge problem as a solo burg, I'll just run back around, stay moving, go in EC maybe, and re-stealth again. Except as soon as I re-stealth, I suddenly get popped OUT of stealth. A warg used Howl of Unnerving, an AOE skill to pull me OUT of stealth. This wasn't a reveal-to-him situation, I was pulled completely out of stealth.

So what exactly should I be doing as a burg in the moors to survive? I can't use CC that much, the burg doesn't have anything to keep mobs away from me that can't be potted by the creeps. This is in contrast to the BA or the Spider who have applied-at-range or AOE slows that are quite potent. So Mischief is out, I can't use it because I get no survival options that are worth anything (even conjunction dazes are pottable).

I can't use Quiet Knife, because I can't stay in stealth, wargs simply screw with me and there's nothing I can do. BA's get an ungodly stealth detect bonus that takes a lot of gear-finagling to even match. The warg tracking skill reveals me to them with no roll on my invested stealth level (footpad is useless in part because of this), their skill howl of unnerving simply pops me out of stealth completely now, without revealing them, and if that isn't enough, their in-stealth speed is now SUPERIOR to burgs because of their footspeed bonus skill. As any real moors burg knows, speed in stealth is more important than stealth level, because with superior speed you move past enemies before they get a second chance to roll on detection.

And, btw, Quiet Knife-traited surprise strikes are something that creeps do not fear anymore at all. They still do hefty damage, but a 15-16k War Leader laughs at a 4k SS. To get that high of a surprise strike you have to have high-end-raiding-gear, not something that everyone can achieve. Considering all the skill-setup and timing it requires to achieve such a strike, it's underpowered, imho. This situation is worse when you consider that there is no good gear combination that can get you 6.5k morale or more, and 3+k surprise strike hits on creeps. In order to get a 4k hit, you have to sacrifice a lot of morale, which significantly hurts your survivability.

What exactly is the direction I should take my burg if I'm trying to survive? I confess I can still 1v1 just about any class in the moors and at least hold my own most of the time. But 1V1 is not what happens in the moors, and other stealth squishies get worthwhile "get-me-out-of-here" skills (warg sprint, Hunter DF). However, there are no "oh-####-survival-skills" for burgs (at least hobbit burgs) that work anymore. Warg track tracks through HIPS, so that's worthless. Wargs have that sprint skill that lasts so long there's no way to catch them once they're out of riddle range. Spiders just lay down webs to slow and kite, in fact just about every creep knows to kite burgs, because we have no skills that can slow them from significant range.

I'm not bad at PvP, I'm not. No response suggesting otherwise will be listened to. I've played lots of PvP for many years in many games, so I know whats up. I've invested a lot of time in this main, but I'll be forced to abandon this class in the moors if Turbine is intent on beefing up wargs and spiders further (as they've declared they are doing). I would appreciate suggestions, but I don't think I'm wrong in declaring that burgs (particularly hobbit burgs) are essentially now UNDERpowered in the moors.

Try playing a warg and you'll know what underpowered is. You haven't got a clue. As a warg, I can't stay at regular pew fights because of all the tracks and all the seeing burgs. Also, a burg has "a few" more skills than a warg, and "a tiny bit" better dps and cc.