Thread: SUGGESTION: Revamp Power on LOTRO!

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

The champion and the guardian are the only classes that not only can benefit from five stats, but some of which are useless.

All classes can.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

All classes can.

Indeed, but the Lore-master won't benefit as much as a champion would from Might in opposition to Will.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Indeed, but the Lore-master won't benefit as much as a champion would from Might in opposition to Will.

Of course not, they're different classes. Yet that is far from 'only guards and champs can benefit from all stats'.

The idea isn't to force people into only a select stat. The idea is to say 'here's a bunch of stats, these ones are important to your class and these others are if you want to experiment and go for different builds'. Variation is the spice of life and alot of us in this thread like our gaming spicy.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Of course not, they're different classes. Yet that is far from 'only guards and champs can benefit from all stats'.

The idea isn't to force people into only a select stat. The idea is to say 'here's a bunch of stats, these ones are important to your class and these others are if you want to experiment and go for different builds'. Variation is the spice of life and alot of us in this thread like our gaming spicy.

What he's getting at here is that the Guard and Champ are pretty much required to invest in all the major attributes in order to succeed, whereas things like Might and Agility offer fairly little benefit to Minstrels, Rune-keepers, and Lore-masters, for example. He's right about this in terms of the total amount of primary attribute stats you require as those classes. Freeing up Guards and Champs from those two stats would enable them to invest more in secondary stats like the light classes do.

For the record, I agree with the overall aim of the original post, but it wasn't as well-presented as it could be, and you guys are tearing him to shreds as he tries to express and define the ideas. Shame on you all.

Originally Posted by Serin36

What he's getting at here is that the Guard and Champ are pretty much required to invest in all the major attributes in order to succeed, whereas things like Might and Agility offer fairly little benefit to Minstrels, Rune-keepers, and Lore-masters, for example. He's right about this in terms of the total amount of primary attribute stats you require as those classes. Freeing up Guards and Champs from those two stats would enable them to invest more in secondary stats like the light classes do.

Actually, a champ in pure DPS mode isn't required to invest in anything but might and agility. It's all about the situation. The same goes for other classes. Only hunters and burgs have the luxury of having their miss chance and crit rating tied to their primary stat. Despite this, the balance is kept fairly even. A champ who invests in might and agility will still be as dangerous and a burg or hunter who invests solely in agility, just through the game design itself.

As for allowing us to invest more in secondary stats, we already have that. His idea does nothing but remove the ability to customise for different situations in favour of cookie cutter characters.

Originally Posted by Serin36

For the record, I agree with the overall aim of the original post, but it wasn't as well-presented as it could be, and you guys are tearing him to shreds as he tries to express and define the ideas. Shame on you all.

I don't like letting bad ideas get away without getting mauled.

Serin Posted:
What he's getting at here is that the Guard and Champ are pretty much required to invest in all the major attributes in order to succeed, whereas things like Might and Agility offer fairly little benefit to Minstrels, Rune-keepers, and Lore-masters, for example. He's right about this in terms of the total amount of primary attribute stats you require as those classes. Freeing up Guards and Champs from those two stats would enable them to invest more in secondary stats like the light classes do.

See, that there is part of the problem. This thread is not Titled to the effect of "Improving the way Champs invest points". There is also no requirement, nor should there be on how one builds their character. Sure I could invest every stat that my Hunter has into Will, but why would I? One would think that heavily investing in a less beneficial stat would result in a less effective character that I would perceive to be build in a manner that is not efficient simply by playing the game. I don't need a "Stats for Dummies" handbook to tell me that nor do I need a game mechanism to ensure that I don't do that.

The problems with the thread thus far as argued by the detractors:

1. Power is not Mana. One might wish to believe that casters must use mana in every game, but the lore of the game states that magic is very limited in it's use in Tolkien's world.
2. Streamlining the characters so they only invest in a very limited amount of stats does not make the game play more complex and interesting. It simply makes the characters boxed into very limited roles and over powered at those roles while weaker overall in flexibility. Making my Hunter able to two shot every mob in the game when he dies while stumbling on a twig is of little benefit to me.
3. As you pointed out, the thread is mainly about a general dissatisfaction in the manner that the Champs and Guards are investing points. That does not call for a revamp of the class and power structure of the game.
4. Balance is not a simple one thread will provide the proper insight for the right adjustment of the classes issue. It's very complex and changes in one area effects many other areas and aspects of the game.
5. Clearly explaining to the OP the reason we are opposed continues to result in "Read what I said, you don't understand the game" instead of refuting their presented argument.

For the record, I agree with the overall aim of the original post, but it wasn't as well-presented as it could be, and you guys are tearing him to shreds as he tries to express and define the ideas. Shame on you all.

Shame on us all? To make suggestions in the forums one must assume two things in general:

• Players will discuss the suggestion and point out it's strengths and weaknesses either supporting the idea overwhelmingly if it's a good suggestion or tearing it down in mass if it seems obviously flawed.
• The game company may actually look at a suggestion that receives enough participation and consider the possibility of a change. I might add that they have in the past done so on issues they felt compelling enough to look into.

The above stated, players reacting here in a opposed manner have basically said "Whoa! That would really mess up the way that I play my classes, please, no touchie!" Perhaps they fear that in some way it could happen, much like we have warning labels on coffee cups since someone was not cognizant of the concept that spilling hot coffee on ones lap could be painful and cause injury. Much as I hate to bring up the past, no one in SWG ever thought that NGE (New Game Experience) could happen either, yet it did and ruined the game for many players.

First of all, thank you for responding without the mockery or vitriol others have directed at this idea.

Originally Posted by Zarador

1. Power is not Mana. One might wish to believe that casters must use mana in every game, but the lore of the game states that magic is very limited in it's use in Tolkien's world.

Nor did he or I say that we should use 'mana'. We're just using that term to refer to the type of resource that LOTRO's 'power' currently is. (As opposed to a rage or energy type). You can call them whatever you want, but the difference is purely mechanical.

Streamlining the characters so they only invest in a very limited amount of stats does not make the game play more complex and interesting. It simply makes the characters boxed into very limited roles and over powered at those roles while weaker overall in flexibility. Making my Hunter able to two shot every mob in the game when he dies while stumbling on a twig is of little benefit to me.

Once again, I think everyone is misconstruing 'streamlining' generally. The way I interpret it, and the way it should and would work, is that we would have a much BROADER array of secondary stats to choose from and invest in, and the only reduction would be in our requirements for primary attributes. (From 5 to 3 in most cases.)

Balance is not a simple one thread will provide the proper insight for the right adjustment of the classes issue. It's very complex and changes in one area effects many other areas and aspects of the game.

Very true, and I still think that LOTRO's combat system needs an overhaul to stay competitive and engaging.

Clearly explaining to the OP the reason we are opposed continues to result in "Read what I said, you don't understand the game" instead of refuting their presented argument.

I attribute this to the OP's inability to effectively express his idea, and his use of terminology that many here find alien or threatening.

The above stated, players reacting here in a opposed manner have basically said "Whoa! That would really mess up the way that I play my classes, please, no touchie!" Perhaps they fear that in some way it could happen, much like we have warning labels on coffee cups since someone was not cognizant of the concept that spilling hot coffee on ones lap could be painful and cause injury. Much as I hate to bring up the past, no one in SWG ever thought that NGE (New Game Experience) could happen either, yet it did and ruined the game for many players.

I find that the lack of regular change in LOTRO has caused this attitude; people are very anti-change. I remember the NGE, but on the flip-side: Other games have had MAJOR shake-ups and updates and fared just fine, or gotten better. The issue is getting a company like Turbine, who has very limited resources and money, to fully implement a change or a system. As we've seen in the past, Turbine tends to updates classes 1 or 2 at a time, piecemeal, which wouldn't work for a large change like this.

I have to agree with the last point. Turbine have left the combat system vacant for years and years, and because people have gotten used to it, they've adapted and are thus reluctant to change. People have to understand that there is an end to everything, be it this thread and the idea itself, but it also accounts for the current combat system on LOTRO.

You need to stop being so conservative about this issue, and actually think about your class for once. Clearly, you only think about your class from a bird's eye view, because you are overseeing all stats to be of some help. That may seem so from the top, but they're not. "Oh, yes: Will gives me extra power, and that means I can execute more skills." No, it doesn't work like that. If you invest more into Will, you end up investing less into might, agility or vitality. That will make up for your loss. It makes no difference if you have X points and you in vest 1/2X points into Might, 1/4X points into Vitality, 1/8 points into Will, and so forth. It really doesn't work that way, and it doesn't make your gameplay better either. You're simply under the impression that because you are, how you call it, "spicing up" your gameplay, that you are doing better. In truth, you're not.

Turbine must address this, because this system is too old for use in online gaming! This system of having every class use a system similar to mana is one that goes back to the 1980s/90s; it's no longer used in today's games. Why don't Turbine understand this? Can't they, and you lot see, that the system is broken and it needs to change? Remember, it's not the exterior of the game that proves quality, but the interior. The class you like may be fun on the outside, but overtime you will learn to the degree of which your class fights at, and it is proven to be boring because a rune-keeper's mana, is undervalued by the fact other classes use mana too. Yes, I use mana explicitly to describe Power in this case, because frankly, Power as a term to describe a secondary resource does not exist.

Power can be used respectively to describe a specific resource a certain number of classes require. It cannot be used generally in context to the game. If that is Turbine's intention, with regards to Fervour and Focus, then they should make that clear, because right now, the combat system is far too old and it is keeping the game back from progressing. Remember, that the best games out there are judged by how efficient their combat system is.

If Turbine do actually realise this after so many long years, then by all means please actually change the system and make it clear to every LOTRO player that change must happen. The system was old; it was out of date; it was not making the game move forward, and it does not fit in with the LOTR lore either. Soon, Rohan is going to come out and we will end up engaging in ruthless wars against Uruks and Orcs, and with a combat system like, it simply downgrades the value and effectiveness of the combat. Let me tell you now, that when I played WoW and fought other players, I actually thought for a moment that I was in a position similar in the LOTR books. This game needs to achieve that, even if it means going against your will. Change happens for a reason, and you lot have not provided a valid reason as to why this system can't go on board.

Champions, indeed, should only invest in Might, Agility and Vitality, because those three stats are the only relevant stats that will benefit the class. If we disable Will and Fate for the class, then it will become clear as to what champions must invest in. Besides, champions can still vary their gameplay by using different stances, by investing in different secondary stats, by investing in various degrees to the three stats. That's still variation, and there it is. It's not fair that the champion and guardian are compelled to invest in five primary stats while the LM, Minstrel and rune-keeper only have to invest in Vitality, Will or Fate, and I have absolutely no problem with the cloth-wearer classes because frankly that's how they should function. It is they who should be using a blue-power resource, not hunters, rogues, champions or wardens, and especially guardians. Captains have magic skills, therefore they can continue using mana.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Rant

Here's a simple solution: JUST IGNORE WILL AND FATE THEN.

Let the rest of us decide what we want, instead of imposing this idea on us because it seems YOU get confused about what you should and shouldn't have.

I have to agree with the last point. Turbine have left the combat system vacant for years and years, and because people have gotten used to it, they've adapted and are thus reluctant to change. People have to understand that there is an end to everything, be it this thread and the idea itself, but it also accounts for the current combat system on LOTRO.

Of course they would be reluctant to change the combat system since it's familiar and comfortable to most the players that played for years and years. Why should there be an end when there is no need for one?

"Oh, yes: Will gives me extra power, and that means I can execute more skills." No, it doesn't work like that. If you invest more into Will, you end up investing less into might, agility or vitality. That will make up for your loss. It makes no difference if you have X points and you in vest 1/2X points into Might, 1/4X points into Vitality, 1/8 points into Will, and so forth. It really doesn't work that way, and it doesn't make your gameplay better either. You're simply under the impression that because you are, how you call it, "spicing up" your gameplay, that you are doing better. In truth, you're not.

See, that is where your point fails. IT IS working as intended, you can gain one, or the other, but not both. At least you are honest enough to admit that you want the power to execute skills without the cost involved. Lets streamline it alltogether and remove the blue bar and inductions while we are at it. Make it into a total FPS game.

Turbine must address this, because this system is too old for use in online gaming! This system of having every class use a system similar to mana is one that goes back to the 1980s/90s; it's no longer used in today's games. Why don't Turbine understand this? Can't they, and you lot see, that the system is broken and it needs to change? Remember, it's not the exterior of the game that proves quality, but the interior. The class you like may be fun on the outside, but overtime you will learn to the degree of which your class fights at, and it is proven to be boring because a rune-keeper's mana, is undervalued by the fact other classes use mana too. Yes, I use mana explicitly to describe Power in this case, because frankly, Power as a term to describe a secondary resource does not exist.

Well now, you mention in other replies that Turbine is the only one to use such a system, that would make it innovative; now you say it's too old of a system left behind in other games. Then you explain how I might think I'm having fun with my class, but I am really not. My rune keeper who uses power, can't be powerful because you say so?

Please get it straight, Champs don't need might, they need strength! Since we don't have a term that describes might, we will call it strength instead, alright? I will now pretend that might does not exist since it is secondary to many classes.

Power can be used respectively to describe a specific resource a certain number of classes require. It cannot be used generally in context to the game. If that is Turbine's intention, with regards to Fervour and Focus, then they should make that clear, because right now, the combat system is far too old and it is keeping the game back from progressing. Remember, that the best games out there are judged by how efficient their combat system is.

It's very clear to most of us here. You just seem to fail to grasp the concept that power represents your endurance to be able to perform tasks. It's not mana, it's not any other name you choose, it is power. I also don't see many complaints, or a significant amount should I say of complaints about the combat system. The best games are NOT purely based on the combat systems as you claim.

If Turbine do actually realise this after so many long years, then by all means please actually change the system and make it clear to every LOTRO player that change must happen. The system was old; it was out of date; it was not making the game move forward, and it does not fit in with the LOTR lore either. Soon, Rohan is going to come out and we will end up engaging in ruthless wars against Uruks and Orcs, and with a combat system like, it simply downgrades the value and effectiveness of the combat. Let me tell you now, that when I played WoW and fought other players, I actually thought for a moment that I was in a position similar in the LOTR books. This game needs to achieve that, even if it means going against your will. Change happens for a reason, and you lot have not provided a valid reason as to why this system can't go on board.

Mana does not whatsover fit into the OUR lore in any way, shape or form since we are not magical beings. Don't take my word, read the books that the lore is based on. Seriously? WoW as an example of immersive game play that exceeds the feeling of immersion in this game? To each their own I guess. You are asking for an "I WIN! button where skills are double dipped to give additional endurance while improving the damage. Most players understand and accept the trade off and the system.

Champions, indeed, should only invest in Might, Agility and Vitality, because those three stats are the only relevant stats that will benefit the class. If we disable Will and Fate for the class, then it will become clear as to what champions must invest in. Besides, champions can still vary their gameplay by using different stances, by investing in different secondary stats, by investing in various degrees to the three stats. That's still variation, and there it is. It's not fair that the champion and guardian are compelled to invest in five primary stats while the LM, Minstrel and rune-keeper only have to invest in Vitality, Will or Fate, and I have absolutely no problem with the cloth-wearer classes because frankly that's how they should function. It is they who should be using a blue-power resource, not hunters, rogues, champions or wardens, and especially guardians. Captains have magic skills, therefore they can continue using mana.

That is your vision, not how the game works. Could you point out the reference to the magic skills that Captains, or any other class have? Wait, I know, you will call it magic, despite what Tolkien might have described it as. His works are old anyway, might as well ask them to change the story while we are at it.

By the way, the rings are referred to as "Rings of Power"

REFERENCE:

What is the nature of this Magic?

The nature of magic in Middle-earth is wrapped around Tolkien's philosophy of power and domination. In one of the The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (#155) he makes a distinction between "good" and "bad" magic and further states that both sides used both types. It is not the magic itself that is good or bad, but the intentions and motives for its use.

Good magic is meant to be "artistic" for the purpose of creating or preserving beauty, whereas bad magic was used for "deceit" or to dominate the wills of others. But magic in general, was a means to quicken the process between the conception of thought and actual realization of effect.
Which races used magic?

Tolkien believed that the ability to use magic was derived from the inherent power contained within the individual and that Men did not have this type of power. Aragorn, who could heal the sick, is of course, an exception. But Tolkien goes on to state that he is, through descent, related to Luthien, born of Thingol an elf, and Melian a Maiar.
Didn't the Istari, or Wizards use Magic?

Tolkien specifically stated that magic can only be performed by individuals possessing an inherent power (Letter #155). Magic allowed for the instantaneous creation of effect from thought.

The Istari, of course, could also use magic, but they are not a race. The Istari were messengers from Valinor, who were sent to help the races of Middle-earth resist the domination of Sauron. They were lesser Maiar, but changed into mortal flesh and subject to the trials and effects of Middle-earth. Being changed into Istari, they used their inherent power which was called "magic" by Men, but in a subtle manner; they were forbidden to use their power openly in direct confrontation or domination. However, they did use this magic for certain beneficent purposes. For example, Gandalf uses his magic to create fire, and invokes a command of holding on the door to Balin's tomb during the attack of the Balrog.

What about the Magic of the Valar and Maiar?

The Valar and Maiar should be treated separately and not associated with magic in the mortal sense of the word. They certainly could perform supernatural feats, but this power should be considered as "divine power" and not magic.

Can't the other Races use Magic?

Dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs, and the other races of Middle-earth are seemingly devoid of "inherent power", and can not perform magical effects. The exception to this is for Men of Elven descent, such as the line of Elros, brother of Elrond, who was considered half-elven.

The only other way for a mortal to use magic is with a Ring of Power. Before the Nine faded and became Ringwraiths, it is stated that by using the Nine Rings these men "became mighty in their day,kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old (The Silmarillion)." The dwarven rings also lent magical power to their users and it is rumoured that the "Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings" had a ring as its source. See the FAQ on the Rings of Power (to be written).

However, this is not to say that these races could not create items with special properties that could be considered magical. The Númenóreans created swords with spells on them, and the dwarves made the Helm of Hador and used runes of power. But this process is different from magic and is defined as lore.

What is the difference between magic and lore?
Lore was knowledge gained by study to be used in the creation of items such as elven swords, the palantír, the doors of Moria, rings of power, etc.

Conclusion

Tolkien, the creator of the works on which the game is based on uses the term "Power" over and over and over again. The term however is not suitable to the OP and therefore must be changed to fit in the world that he wishes to create. If only WoW was around when J.R.R. creaated his works (sighs) we could have had wizard panda's with unlimted might saving Middle Earth. Alas, it is a utopia that we can only dream of!

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

I have to agree with the last point. Turbine have left the combat system vacant for years and years, and because people have gotten used to it, they've adapted and are thus reluctant to change. People have to understand that there is an end to everything, be it this thread and the idea itself, but it also accounts for the current combat system on LOTRO.

You need to stop being so conservative about this issue, and actually think about your class for once. Clearly, you only think about your class from a bird's eye view, because you are overseeing all stats to be of some help. That may seem so from the top, but they're not. "Oh, yes: Will gives me extra power, and that means I can execute more skills." No, it doesn't work like that. If you invest more into Will, you end up investing less into might, agility or vitality. That will make up for your loss. It makes no difference if you have X points and you in vest 1/2X points into Might, 1/4X points into Vitality, 1/8 points into Will, and so forth. It really doesn't work that way, and it doesn't make your gameplay better either. You're simply under the impression that because you are, how you call it, "spicing up" your gameplay, that you are doing better. In truth, you're not.

Turbine must address this, because this system is too old for use in online gaming! This system of having every class use a system similar to mana is one that goes back to the 1980s/90s; it's no longer used in today's games. Why don't Turbine understand this? Can't they, and you lot see, that the system is broken and it needs to change? Remember, it's not the exterior of the game that proves quality, but the interior. The class you like may be fun on the outside, but overtime you will learn to the degree of which your class fights at, and it is proven to be boring because a rune-keeper's mana, is undervalued by the fact other classes use mana too. Yes, I use mana explicitly to describe Power in this case, because frankly, Power as a term to describe a secondary resource does not exist.

Power can be used respectively to describe a specific resource a certain number of classes require. It cannot be used generally in context to the game. If that is Turbine's intention, with regards to Fervour and Focus, then they should make that clear, because right now, the combat system is far too old and it is keeping the game back from progressing. Remember, that the best games out there are judged by how efficient their combat system is.

If Turbine do actually realise this after so many long years, then by all means please actually change the system and make it clear to every LOTRO player that change must happen. The system was old; it was out of date; it was not making the game move forward, and it does not fit in with the LOTR lore either. Soon, Rohan is going to come out and we will end up engaging in ruthless wars against Uruks and Orcs, and with a combat system like, it simply downgrades the value and effectiveness of the combat. Let me tell you now, that when I played WoW and fought other players, I actually thought for a moment that I was in a position similar in the LOTR books. This game needs to achieve that, even if it means going against your will. Change happens for a reason, and you lot have not provided a valid reason as to why this system can't go on board.

Champions, indeed, should only invest in Might, Agility and Vitality, because those three stats are the only relevant stats that will benefit the class. If we disable Will and Fate for the class, then it will become clear as to what champions must invest in. Besides, champions can still vary their gameplay by using different stances, by investing in different secondary stats, by investing in various degrees to the three stats. That's still variation, and there it is. It's not fair that the champion and guardian are compelled to invest in five primary stats while the LM, Minstrel and rune-keeper only have to invest in Vitality, Will or Fate, and I have absolutely no problem with the cloth-wearer classes because frankly that's how they should function. It is they who should be using a blue-power resource, not hunters, rogues, champions or wardens, and especially guardians. Captains have magic skills, therefore they can continue using mana.

Regarding only the statement I bolded above:

You keep coming back to this point and using it as a basis for your argument. The problem with relying on this statement is that it is patently untrue. Champions and Guardians - especially Champions - are absolutely free to completely ignore Will and Fate and function just fine.

The only class that has ever had to invest in all five primary stats was the pre-RoI Captain, and yes that was a bit unfair, but it's no longer the case. Guardians do not need to; Champions do not need to. Check out any current (or, for that matter, former) Champion build threads. Every single one focuses on Might, Agility, and Vitality in addition to raw Physical Mastery (derived from Might), Crit (derived from Agility & Fate, but jewelry with raw +crit will give you more than any amount of Fate found on similar jewelry), and Physical/Tactical Mitigations (derived from Vitality).

I posted earlier in this thread about how I can execute a full rotation of skills on my Champ - even a power-hungry rotation - for a theoretically infinite length of time, without even bothering to trait our only improved power restore skill. I was able to parse for over 6 minutes until I got bored, and if a Champ can parse for 5 minutes without running out of power, then he can parse for as long as he wants (Controlled Burn is a ridiculous power-restoration skill thanks to its current buffing mechanic, and is on a 5 minute cooldown). This is on a Champ with 58 Will and 104 Fate, and I'm not some special snowflake - pretty much any level 75 Champ can do the same if he knows what he's doing.

Also, the idea that investing in Will (for the extra Power) so as to be able to execute more skills is misguided - ICPR is a better investment than raw Power anyway. And before you point out that Champs would then invest in Fate: one can gain more ICPR from gear with raw ICPR on it than with any amount of Fate available on the current gear.

In short, I don't accept your assertion that Champions need to invest in all 5 stats, because they don't. Read the Champion forums; read and look at the builds by some of the better/well-known Champions out there. Note that Champions who are willing to use the tools available to them (Controlled Burn, power pots, Second Wind) don't have power issues. I'd hate to think that this whole thread was conceived of because you may be personally having power issues on your Champ - and if you aren't, why do you keep coming back to the false assertion that Champs need Will and Fate?

Oh, and one last thing, unrelated to the above point: the combat system has not remained stagnant for all these years. It's undergone major changes with all three expansions: Moria, Mirkwood, and Isengard, and there were some smaller tweaks along the way as well.

I miss the times we had to figure out a healthy mix of all the 5 stats

I conclude this guy is a troll.

He's gone from saying he wants to broaden gameplay to saying he wants to limit gameplay.

He's gone from saying that champs only need might and vitality to saying champs are required to invest in all 5 stats.

He's gone from saying that he knows how to play a champ to saying that champs don't have rotations.

Simply put, he's changing his mind constantly but not applying it to his worthless idea.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Regarding only the statement I bolded above:

You keep coming back to this point and using it as a basis for your argument. The problem with relying on this statement is that it is patently untrue. Champions and Guardians - especially Champions - are absolutely free to completely ignore Will and Fate and function just fine.

The only class that has ever had to invest in all five primary stats was the pre-RoI Captain, and yes that was a bit unfair, but it's no longer the case. Guardians do not need to; Champions do not need to. Check out any current (or, for that matter, former) Champion build threads. Every single one focuses on Might, Agility, and Vitality in addition to raw Physical Mastery (derived from Might), Crit (derived from Agility & Fate, but jewelry with raw +crit will give you more than any amount of Fate found on similar jewelry), and Physical/Tactical Mitigations (derived from Vitality).

I posted earlier in this thread about how I can execute a full rotation of skills on my Champ - even a power-hungry rotation - for a theoretically infinite length of time, without even bothering to trait our only improved power restore skill. I was able to parse for over 6 minutes until I got bored, and if a Champ can parse for 5 minutes without running out of power, then he can parse for as long as he wants (Controlled Burn is a ridiculous power-restoration skill thanks to its current buffing mechanic, and is on a 5 minute cooldown). This is on a Champ with 58 Will and 104 Fate, and I'm not some special snowflake - pretty much any level 75 Champ can do the same if he knows what he's doing.

Also, the idea that investing in Will (for the extra Power) so as to be able to execute more skills is misguided - ICPR is a better investment than raw Power anyway. And before you point out that Champs would then invest in Fate: one can gain more ICPR from gear with raw ICPR on it than with any amount of Fate available on the current gear.

In short, I don't accept your assertion that Champions need to invest in all 5 stats, because they don't. Read the Champion forums; read and look at the builds by some of the better/well-known Champions out there. Note that Champions who are willing to use the tools available to them (Controlled Burn, power pots, Second Wind) don't have power issues. I'd hate to think that this whole thread was conceived of because you may be personally having power issues on your Champ - and if you aren't, why do you keep coming back to the false assertion that Champs need Will and Fate?

Oh, and one last thing, unrelated to the above point: the combat system has not remained stagnant for all these years. It's undergone major changes with all three expansions: Moria, Mirkwood, and Isengard, and there were some smaller tweaks along the way as well.

Alright, for the sake of the argument, let's assume you're right: you are saying that champions do not require Will and Fate as primary stats. Fine. If that's the case, then we do not require power, and we should only be using Fervour for our skills. In this interpretation, the champion only invests in Might, Agility and Vitality. In which case, we can invest in other secondary stats.

Fine... very fine, so you've just proven why we should adopt my system. :-)

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Alright, for the sake of the argument, let's assume you're right: you are saying that champions do not require Will and Fate as primary stats. Fine. If that's the case, then we do not require power, and we should only be using Fervour for our skills. In this interpretation, the champion only invests in Might, Agility and Vitality. In which case, we can invest in other secondary stats.

Fine... very fine, so you've just proven why we should adopt my system. :-)

How in the name of Gollum did you come up with that conclusion?

• POWER = Ability to perform skills.
• You NEED power to perform skills.
• ALL classes should and do use POWER.
• Just because YOU don't have to INVEST in POWER does not mean that you don't use it!

Hey, are you not the one saying that we should not invest in any other stats than the primary? If you are investing in the MOST NEEDED stats, those ARE your primary stats. Anything else you could call secondary. You know, THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW!

Also, since the post you responded to actually tested the system AND the class boards all confirm what they said, there is no reason to "assume for the sake of the argument". Don't let the facts confuse your theory though, I'm sure you have a great response.

I just got my pizza from Papa Johns. They advertise pizza, they claim to be a pizza shop. All I wanted was Pizza. Why did they try and confuse me with other food and drink options? Maybe they should just offer pizza so customers can be sure of what they get if they order a pizza.

Originally Posted by Zarador

How in the name of Gollum did you come up with that conclusion?

• POWER = Ability to perform skills.
• You NEED power to perform skills.
• ALL classes should and do use POWER.
• Just because YOU don't have to INVEST in POWER does not mean that you don't use it!

Hey, are you not the one saying that we should not invest in any other stats than the primary? If you are investing in the MOST NEEDED stats, those ARE your primary stats. Anything else you could call secondary. You know, THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW!

Also, since the post you responded to actually tested the system AND the class boards all confirm what they said, there is no reason to "assume for the sake of the argument". Don't let the facts confuse your theory though, I'm sure you have a great response.

I just got my pizza from Papa Johns. They advertise pizza, they claim to be a pizza shop. All I wanted was Pizza. Why did they try and confuse me with other food and drink options? Maybe they should just offer pizza so customers can be sure of what they get if they order a pizza.

Power is too vague to be used as a resource on LOTRO. It should be made more specific. Why should champions use a power resource minstrels also use? It's not fair on the champion that they can't invest as much into Will as a minstrel can because their primary stat comes naturally with gear and traits. This should be changed, and what I'm addressing here is not the balance of the game, but rather how stats are being distributed among classes.

Some stats need to be disabled completely from certain classes, and to compensate, we introduce my system which revolutionise the system of combat on this game. Most of my friends still laugh as to why I continue playing this game, so I think Turbine need to do something to amaze them. :-)

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Power is too vague to be used as a resource on LOTRO. It should be made more specific. Why should champions use a power resource minstrels also use? It's not fair on the champion that they can't invest as much into Will as a minstrel can because their primary stat comes naturally with gear and traits.

Because, and I´ll be the 15th person to say so, power is not a resource for "casting magic", it represents endurance. Even if we accept the power disparity as "unfair", it is made "fair" again by differing skill costs. If what you say would be true, then Tactical classes should never have any power shortage whatsoever/physical classes run out of it in seconds.

The truth is, through different skill costs it is entirely possible for a minstrel running out of power before a Champion. In fact, that is usually what happens with EVERY class if they do not mind their "endurance" (read: power limits). Or turning it around, by having a large power pool a champion can indeed be more "powerful", because he can use a lot more of the ancillary, power-hungry skills. Try working in more "Fear Nothing!", red haze, merciful strikes after clobber etc. in a fight. Watch where that leaves your power pool.

I´ll repeat what I wrote much earlier here: your suggestion is mostly based on a faulty idea of what power represents and does.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

...Most of my friends still laugh as to why I continue playing this game, so I think Turbine need to do something to amaze them. :-)

Most of MY friends laughed when I took classic dancing lessons. They ceased to laugh once I started to be asked by the hottest women (also, some not so hot of course) at every wedding, party, company event for a dance.

Bottom line: a system does not need to make sense to an outside observer when it has a clear and intrinsic value to the insider.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

I´ll repeat what I wrote much earlier here: your suggestion is mostly based on a faulty idea of what power represents and does.

Alright then. What is power? What does it represent? What is its purpose?

Just one example of many in this thread:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...51#post6068451

In short: Your choice of executable skills is inhibited by class mechanics. The amount of skills to execute is limited by class-based power costs. You can not replace both at the same time with your suggestion.

To stay with the champion, you have two ways to build up fervour apart from the time-tics: By using the attacks that return fervour (for example wild attack) and by using the skills that return fervour (for example battle frenzy). The attacks that return fervour are not your strongest attacks, so you pay for your fervour with lower overall damage to unlock stronger attacks. The skills that return fervour cost power; you exchange power for damage.

If given the option, you will of course always choose the skills that give fervour for power over the attacks that give fervour instead of more damage. Thats why, in addition to some cooldowns, your power pool will prevent you from constantly using everything in your arsenal.

When we now take your "rage" mechanic as the sole limiting factor, these other skills will either have to go (no sense in paying with rage for a skill that gives rage), or they will have to be gated by more and higher cooldowns/long inductions/durations. Both options will reduce the choice of skills and variety of tools you can use in combat.

Result: a more boring combat system.

This thread should be closed.

OP will not accept that folks understand and do not like his idea, so he continuously says they don't understand. That comes across as very arrogant.

Almost all of the responders DO seem to understand (I read the first 5 pages of posts before I stopped) and do not like the idea.

This idea is going no where.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Alright then. What is power? What does it represent? What is its purpose?

The most simple explanation that fits ALL classes is endurance. For lack of a better analogy, lets use real life soldiers as an example. If they are fully exhausted, they lack the endurance to perform their assigned duties. They might be a tactician or a gunner, or serve any of the various functions. Power would be that inner strength that allows them to press onward until they have no more left in them to fight. Sleep deprivation will have it's effect on any being over time effecting their endurance and ability to function.

We have Rings of Power in Middle earth. They empower the holder with abilities and strengths that they would otherwise not possess. Tolkien, the creator of Middle earth uses the term "Power" over and over to describe empowerment for good or evil use noting that power is power and is neither evil or good, it is influenced by what it is being used for.

While I can not state with absolute certainty, I would speculate that Turbine utilized the term "Power" because the term and explanation fits in well with Tolkiens application of "power" in his works.

Power, possessed to some degree by all classes can be replenished through various game mechanics. Since the need and mechanism is universal, there is no need to create an explanation that the same power that is restored to a Champ is also needed by a Rune Keeper. If you separate power and call it manna for those that use Will & Fate as primary stats, then you need to break the lore and demonstrate that the skills are magical, therefore the replenishment is. Tolkien states clearly that magic is rare and limited in Middle Earth. He also states clearly that the race of Man has no potential to possess what it takes to utilize magic on their own. Other races are also severely limited and often excluded from the same.

People have explained over and over to you the concept and reasoning behind power. It is, what it is, a universal source by which we perform our abilities. Champs are not Popeye grabbing a can of spinach.

Originally Posted by Zarador

The most simple explanation that fits ALL classes is endurance. For lack of a better analogy, lets use real life soldiers as an example. If they are fully exhausted, they lack the endurance to perform their assigned duties. They might be a tactician or a gunner, or serve any of the various functions. Power would be that inner strength that allows them to press onward until they have no more left in them to fight. Sleep deprivation will have it's effect on any being over time effecting their endurance and ability to function.

We have Rings of Power in Middle earth. They empower the holder with abilities and strengths that they would otherwise not possess. Tolkien, the creator of Middle earth uses the term "Power" over and over to describe empowerment for good or evil use noting that power is power and is neither evil or good, it is influenced by what it is being used for.

While I can not state with absolute certainty, I would speculate that Turbine utilized the term "Power" because the term and explanation fits in well with Tolkiens application of "power" in his works.

Power, possessed to some degree by all classes can be replenished through various game mechanics. Since the need and mechanism is universal, there is no need to create an explanation that the same power that is restored to a Champ is also needed by a Rune Keeper. If you separate power and call it manna for those that use Will & Fate as primary stats, then you need to break the lore and demonstrate that the skills are magical, therefore the replenishment is. Tolkien states clearly that magic is rare and limited in Middle Earth. He also states clearly that the race of Man has no potential to possess what it takes to utilize magic on their own. Other races are also severely limited and often excluded from the same.

People have explained over and over to you the concept and reasoning behind power. It is, what it is, a universal source by which we perform our abilities. Champs are not Popeye grabbing a can of spinach.

I respect this explanation, but my suggestion was not to remove Power, but simply to renovate it.

Using your explanation, you say that all classes use Power: fine. Tolkien never spoke of Fervour or Focus for champions and hunters, so why do they exist on LOTRO? Do these break the lore? What I'm asking Turbine to do is to distribute the function of power unique to the orientation of a class.

Guardians and Champions would use a new form of Power called 'Rage' and 'Fervour' which starts at 0 and can be built up by fighting.

Hunters, Wardens and Rogues would use a new form of Power called 'Energy' which starts at 100 and dissipates as skills are executed.

Rune-keepers, Lore masters, Minstrels and Captains would use a new form of Power called 'Mana' which has no limit and can be increased by how much a person invests into Will.

In which case, using your theory, Rage, Fervour, Energy and Mana are all variants of Power. They are all allowed in LOTR lore and therefore they do not break the lore; they conform with Tolkien's idea of Power, and therefore they are allowed in game.

Therefore, you have just proven why my system should be implemented on LOTRO. :-)))))

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

I respect this explanation, but my suggestion was not to remove Power, but simply to renovate it.

Using your explanation, you say that all classes use Power: fine. Tolkien never spoke of Fervour or Focus for champions and hunters, so why do they exist on LOTRO? Do these break the lore? What I'm asking Turbine to do is to distribute the function of power unique to the orientation of a class.

Guardians and Champions would use a new form of Power called 'Rage' and 'Fervour' which starts at 0 and can be built up by fighting.

Hunters, Wardens and Rogues would use a new form of Power called 'Energy' which starts at 100 and dissipates as skills are executed.

Rune-keepers, Lore masters, Minstrels and Captains would use a new form of Power called 'Mana' which has no limit and can be increased by how much a person invests into Will.

In which case, using your theory, Rage, Fervour, Energy and Mana are all variants of Power. They are all allowed in LOTR lore and therefore they do not break the lore; they conform with Tolkien's idea of Power, and therefore they are allowed in game.

Therefore, you have just proven why my system should be implemented on LOTRO. :-)))))

So we just need special regeneration foods, regeneration heal spells and regeneration potions all separate for Rage, Fervour, Energy and Mana. I say this because in your explanation, they are all variants of power, having the same effect, just different.

I'm sure that would also bode well with the classes that have utility spells to add to power pool or replenish the power pool. I'm sure my Herbalist would have fun with the group heals since the AI is limited at best.

Also keep in mind what goes for the goose, goes for the Gander. That means the mobs would also have virtually unlimited pools of Rage, Fervour, Energy and Mana. Mobs are balanced to the average player. So the fights would wind up longer, not shorter.
You are assuming that the developers did not realize that having to share the points between primary and secondary stats would give a character less DPS and less power. That trade off is what currently strikes part of the balance in the game.

I think what we need is a custom UI that simply renames it and does the same to make you happy.

Therefore, you have given yet another reason why a singular pool is more beneficial.

Originally Posted by Zarador

So we just need special regeneration foods, regeneration heal spells and regeneration potions all separate for Rage, Fervour, Energy and Mana. I say this because in your explanation, they are all variants of power, having the same effect, just different.

I'm sure that would also bode well with the classes that have utility spells to add to power pool or replenish the power pool. I'm sure my Herbalist would have fun with the group heals since the AI is limited at best.

Also keep in mind what goes for the goose, goes for the Gander. That means the mobs would also have virtually unlimited pools of Rage, Fervour, Energy and Mana. Mobs are balanced to the average player. So the fights would wind up longer, not shorter.

I think what we need is a custom UI that simply renames it and does the same to make you happy.

Therefore, you have given yet another reason why a singular pool is more beneficial.

Champions, Guardians, Wardens, Hunters and Rogues would not require the current Power pots. Only the latter classes (RK, LM etc) require what will now be known as Mana pots. And, that's good, because then demand for Mana pots may decrease when the implementation takes effect, and it will then increase the price of Mana pots dramatically, which means more profit for Alchemists like you.

With regards to the champion skills like 'Second Wind' and 'Fight On!', they will now increase the pace or restore Fervour lost in battle. Although, I'm up for any overhauls of skills that were part of the old system. By the way, depending on the orientation of the mob, they will behave the same way as in the old system. It's not like mobs on LOTRO run out of Power anyway...

With regards to the regeneration of Fervour and Rage, they regenerate overtime in-combat and dissipate when out of combat. With regards to Energy, it regenerates when a player is out of combat, and it can be restored within combat through certain skills, such as the rogue's healing skill, which can be useful.

With regards to the Fellowship Manoeuvres, each option will now restore a certain 'Power' stat of a class which makes gameplay more exciting. The red option restores Fervour/Rage; yellow, Energy; Blue, Mana; Green, everyone's health. The damage inflictions can still be retained, and it makes sense as to why this is, because Rage and Energy are mainly for offensive DPSers, while Mana is originally intended for the Support/Ranged DPS who don't engage in close-range combat. That's the philosophy, really.

When I say broaden gameplay, I mean that it enables a character to invest in secondary stats (which as you say, we already do, indeed), and in doing so, we don't have to invest in useless Primary stats that are irrelevant. In which case, Turbine need to actually do something here. They can't do nothing about it, because it's an issue that is on-going at this point.

They are advocating a combat policy in which they intend to remind players of their class roles. They overhauled tanking for the champion which is a very hard step to take, so if they can do that, why not overhaul the current power system on LOTRO? Even if people would object, it is necessary and this idea of 'customising' gameplay is controversial, because how you customise your gameplay depends on your class, and frankly you make no difference if you invest 1/2 X points into one stat, 1/2X into others. So, frankly, the system does need to change. You know this, all of you do. You know the system isn't perfect and it has to change. Turbine even know that the current power system on LOTRO is inefficient and has to go, be it today or tomorrow or at some point.

If they are preventing classes from investing in all five stats, such as the captain, then they 100% have agreed that the power system on LOTRO is inefficient, and that is why other games are moving away from it. Read what I am suggesting here, it is not to grieve you but to actually help you lot, and save this once-wonderful game from becoming out of date. If you don't change the combat system, then nature itself will change you and there will be a point in which there is no going back, and you cannot undo what you have not done in the past. The power system should have been changed years ago, and I will never to the tip of my brain ever understand why out of all the games in the world, this game persists in its conservative attitude and backs-off from what Turbine already know as efficient to no avail for a system overhaul whatsoever.

It's even more shameful that players like you are against the idea because you are actually acknowledging that certain stats are not worthy of investment for certain classes. You have proven that, and I have brought that about. You are not disagreeing to the suggestion but simply rejecting what you may fear to become reality at one point.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

You are not disagreeing to the suggestion but simply rejecting what you may fear to become reality at one point.

HAHAHAHA, considering the entire thread I think this is rich, you have quite a few no-signers, and no-one has signed on this thread, fear of this game turning into a WoW is a bit far away.

What makes you think that this idea is going to be embraced when you are the ONLY one to think so and no one else will support you?
You might aswell make your own game....

I rest my case

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Champions, Guardians, Wardens, Hunters and Rogues would not require the current Power pots. Only the latter classes (RK, LM etc) require what will now be known as Mana pots. And, that's good, because then demand for Mana pots may decrease when the implementation takes effect, and it will then increase the price of Mana pots dramatically, which means more profit for Alchemists like you.

....what? A decrease in demand = an increase of price?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
"2. If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and lower quantity."

They can't do nothing about it, because it's an issue that is on-going at this point.

How's it an issue, when no-one's had anything to say against it but you?

Do you seriously think that your system is so perfect that no "issues" will ever arise with it? They will. Unless there's a major overhaul of the way skills are handled in mmorpgs, what we see right now are all alternative versions of the same system. Each and every single one of them has to deal with its own issues. It all comes down to the player base's preferences.

I'm not even against your idea that much, I just think I'd rather keep our current system over your version. I find it more beneficial.

You are not disagreeing to the suggestion but simply rejecting what you may fear to become reality at one point.

Please stop being rude to everyone who doesn't agree with you.
"You don't understand my idea," "You're disagreeing because you're anti-WoW," "You're conservative and afraid of change."
Whatever excuse comes next, to invalidate the next post! Since no-one in this thread seems to have gotten your point, we can only conclude that we're all stupid.

Originally Posted by Bucaneve

....what? A decrease in demand = an increase of price?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
"2. If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and lower quantity."






How's it an issue, when no-one's had anything to say against it but you?

Do you seriously think that your system is so perfect that no "issues" will ever arise with it? They will. Unless there's a major overhaul of the way skills are handled in mmorpgs, what we see right now are all alternative versions of the same system. Each and every single one of them has to deal with its own issues. It all comes down to the player base's preferences.

I'm not even against your idea that much, I just think I'd rather keep our current system over your version. I find it more beneficial.




Please stop being rude to everyone who doesn't agree with you.
"You don't understand my idea," "You're disagreeing because you're anti-WoW," "You're conservative and afraid of change."
Whatever excuse comes next, to invalidate the next post! Since no-one in this thread seems to have gotten your point, we can only conclude that we're all stupid.

If a majority of classes do not use Power pots, then supply will decrease because there will be more for mana class users, and this will eventually lead to a price increase.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

If a majority of classes do not use Power pots, then supply will decrease because there will be more for mana class users, and this will eventually lead to a price increase.

In a world in which Power pots are craft-only maybe. But they drop in the landscape; can be bartered for; are given as quest rewards. The supply will actually increase, since a lot of people won't need them anymore.

Now with people who are having problems with Bank space you want to add Another Pot and food?!?!?! Which would mean we would have different type of food for the classes that require if this idea been added. Plus the change of types of Armour weapons and Gear that intergraded into the game that has to be changed.

Who is it going to hurt the. F2P players. Where they have 3 bags and more items required for space.

This topic is about the revamp of Power, not about the Economics of LOTRO.

Stay on topic. :-)

I hope Turbine take this idea into account, even if people disagree.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

This topic is about the revamp of Power, not about the Economics of LOTRO.

Stay on topic. :-)

I hope Turbine take this idea into account, even if people disagree.

And I hope that Turbine does with this idea what is suitable for it: throwing it in a fire so less space is wasted by it.

I am staying On topic. See your so into one small part of a idea but your blind to the whole Picture.

Let say they add Mana to the Power in lotro or Fevour or Rage junk.
So we have Pots and food that require them.

Mana Pots
Fevour Pots
Rage Pots
Power Pots

vs Power pot

Food that requires
Mana
fevour
Rage.
Power

vs food that focus on Power and health.

Then let not forget different Trail Food. They might have to add stuff to this also.

Then redo of all armour and weapons. Rings and Amulets.

Let not forget if the system was change. What do people who use the current crafting Items That deal with Power and health how will Turbine fix that? Let take a LM RK MINI which is use to Power (which is Not Mana). Now need mana pots?!?!?! I have about 900 Power pots on my Toons. What will lotro do to help the change over. What about the 900 Food I have for all my toons. How will turbine adjust them?

That is alot of MONEY wasted for each and every player on lotro.

So please Mephistophelis start looking at the WHOLE picture.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Champions, Guardians, Wardens, Hunters and Rogues would not require the current Power pots. Only the latter classes (RK, LM etc) require what will now be known as Mana pots. And, that's good, because then demand for Mana pots may decrease when the implementation takes effect, and it will then increase the price of Mana pots dramatically, which means more profit for Alchemists like you.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

This topic is about the revamp of Power, not about the Economics of LOTRO.

Stay on topic. :-)

Might I point out that the 1st mention of economics in regards to this thread was by you, the OP. Now you say that we need to stay on topic since its not about ecoomics.

Seriously, your points on economics are even more outrageous than the points on the power revamp. An increase in supply and decrease in demand leads to higher prices? Even when there is source that is free within the game to gain potions via drops that already supply a portion of the market?

No offence, but all the work arounds that you suggest are far worse than having to accept that power=power for all classes.

• Mobs would have to be rebalanced since players would become more powerful.
• Potions would have to be changed, or we could have the Doohickie Potion of Blue Bar revitalization doing the same exact thing it does now with a three page tooltip explaining what it does for each class.
• Abilities that replemish the blue bar would have to be reworked to explain which one does what for a clas. That or a generic "Blue Bar Doohickie Refill ability".
• Players would have to figure out a new system that results in the same results FACT since balance would have to be reworked to account for the changes. Believe it or not, they factor in difficulty into the mix and making us more powerful means the challenge must be increased to reach the levels we have now.
• During all these changes it can be assured that bugs can and will occur resulting in a degregation in the symbiotic relationship of the classes causing a major discource. (Read: People will be carrying pitchforks and torches).

I think it's far earier to play the game as it was intended to be played than to invest time and money that could be spent increasing the enjoyability of the game and fixing the bugs that truly do effect the average player.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

Let not forget if the system was change. What do people who use the current crafting Items That deal with Power and health how will Turbine fix that? Let take a LM RK MINI which is use to Power (which is Not Mana). Now need mana pots?!?!?! I have about 900 Power pots on my Toons. What will lotro do to help the change over. What about the 900 Food I have for all my toons. How will turbine adjust them?

We unfortunately know the answer to that and I cringe at the thought. THE STORE! (No thanks).

I rather enjoy the FACT that I can take out my various characters around the same level and share the potions that I use in the game between them. I can imagine the wasted potions/food and space utilized with specialized items for each subset of class. Another factor that the OP has not addressed.

Oh, and as far as people will easily accept the change? Might I remind the OP of the outrage by players when the blue potion icon was mistakenly made green, and the green made blue? Now you have to explain that the Blue is now crimson for a champ, but pink for a RK, blue for a Hunter and black for (insert class). No thanks!

Originally Posted by Zarador

We unfortunately know the answer to that and I cringe at the thought. THE STORE! (No thanks).

I rather enjoy the FACT that I can take out my various characters around the same level and share the potions that I use in the game between them. I can imagine the wasted potions/food and space utilized with specialized items for each subset of class. Another factor that the OP has not addressed.

Oh, and as far as people will easily accept the change? Might I remind the OP of the outrage by players when the blue potion icon was mistakenly made green, and the green made blue? Now you have to explain that the Blue is now crimson for a champ, but pink for a RK, blue for a Hunter and black for (insert class). No thanks!

Let not forget the people who are color blind. Which is a very touchy Subject. is very hard for them to play with Multi color pots vs Blue and Green. Ya I know it not part of the subject but it has to be addressed. When someone has a color blind disabilty. Multi colors can look like one color

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

Let not forget the people who are color blind. Which is a very touchy Subject. is very hard for them to play with Multi color pots vs Blue and Green. Ya I know it not part of the subject but it has to be addressed. When someone has a disabilty.

See, you bring out an excellent point with that observation. Changing a "minor" aspect of the game can have far reaching effects. We are a few players in a forum coming up with some valid points and one can be sure that those designing the game have meetings about such changes and more readily have the possible ramifications at hand.

If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it!

On the contrary, with this system, there will be no other pots other than Power pots. Like I said, Fervour, Energy and Rage will regenerate overtime in a much faster rate; - as they are capped at 100, there is no need for pots to serve these resources.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

On the contrary, with this system, there will be no other pots other than Power pots. Like I said, Fervour, Energy and Rage will regenerate overtime in a much faster rate; - as they are capped at 100, there is no need for pots to serve these resources.

You still aren't making sense

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

On the contrary, with this system, there will be no other pots other than Power pots.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Fervour, Energy and Rage will regenerate overtime in a much faster rate; - as they are capped at 100, there is no need for pots to serve these resources.

So whats the point of leaving pots in if they are not needed

The points in the posts above have pretty much ripped big massive holes in your thread and you seem to 'forget' things that you have said, you say you ment something else, are you a politician in real life or something? You trying to push something through that:

A Won't really work

B Costs a lot of Money & Time

C Cause a lot of disruption to a game that has 5 years of life already

D Supposly fixes a system that isn't broken.

In any case, besides if it was broken and you were playing it for 5 years, why didn't you say something 5 years ago hmmm clearly you were satisfied with the system then?

Right, so let me try and summarise what your idea is, Mephistophelis.


1. Each class can only use 3 stats. Which 3 stats for each class have yet to be determined by you but you're adamant that champs need only vitality, might and agility.

2. Each class still has a power bar. It just doesn't get influenced by will and fate for champs. Still not mentioned how it would be influenced for other classes.

3. There's an added power resource that for champs you've called Rage. This Rage works exactly the same as Fervour but with larger scaled numbers. Now other classes that do drain their power bars, such as hunters, must now focus on 3 reserves instead of 2; hunters need to deal with power, focus AND the additional energy reserve.


So, after summarising it all, it seems you just want to make a whole load of pointless changes because you don't understand how stats work for a champ and that you don't ever run out of power, so you don't understand why we have a power bar.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Right, so let me try and summarise what your idea is, Mephistophelis.


1. Each class can only use 3 stats. Which 3 stats for each class have yet to be determined by you but you're adamant that champs need only vitality, might and agility.

2. Each class still has a power bar. It just doesn't get influenced by will and fate for champs. Still not mentioned how it would be influenced for other classes.

3. There's an added power resource that for champs you've called Rage. This Rage works exactly the same as Fervour but with larger scaled numbers. Now other classes that do drain their power bars, such as hunters, must now focus on 3 reserves instead of 2; hunters need to deal with power, focus AND the additional energy reserve.


So, after summarising it all, it seems you just want to make a whole load of pointless changes because you don't understand how stats work for a champ and that you don't ever run out of power, so you don't understand why we have a power bar.

Thank you for your post. Let me explain:

1. No, please read this carefully: what the purpose of this idea is thus; it intends for certain stats that are relevant for a class to be invested in, and stats that are not relevant to be disabled for the class. For example, the champion's main focus stats should be Might, Vitality or Agility; it doesn't matter which one you invest in most, so long as you don't invest in Fate or Will because those two stats are directed at magic classes.

For a Lore-master, the class should be focusing on the following stats: Vitality, Will and Fate. Might and agility do not apply for the Lore-master because they do not specialise in melee combat, nor ranged. T

The captain, however, they can invest in all five stats at their own disposal, but indeed, Turbine have slowly revamped the way the class functions by narrowing the amount of stats it can invest in. This is exactly what I want Turbine to advance in: to narrow down the number of stats a class should invest in, so that stats that are of much importance to the class can be invested in. If a champion must invest in Will, they won't invest as much in Might, which is not good.

2. The use of a 'Power' bar, indeed, does have similarities, such that it will be used to execute skills as the way the current Power system does today. However, pay attention that not everyone are the same, and each class requires a different way of gaining and spending power. For champions, we have to focus on Fervour and Power, and this is quite tedious, even though we're used to the system. The intention of my system is to make Fervour the dominant power-system for champions, in which they can use Fervour to execute skills, which as normal, can be generated overtime if you have Fervour Stance enabled. This is a great way to make gameplay simple from a bird's eye view, but also allowing champions to explore new ways of conserving Fervour and gaining it. This may apply to the Power system today, but we are limited as to how we can gain Power, in contrast to Fervour.

I think you lost my point here. What I meant was that I want that blue bar called 'Power' to be replaced by Fervour for champions; Rage for Guardians; and Energy for Wardens, Burglars and Hunters. The current Power system can be reserved for magic classes, or the captain.

With regards to Fervour and Rage, it cannot be increased unless its enhanced through class traits or so. It cannot be influenced by any stat and so long as it stays, the cap remains constant. What is required thus is that it has to be built up by being in combat, and attacking. The rate at Fervour regenerates will be slow, of course, to prevent champions from being too OP.

There is no added Power resource. What I call for is the system of 'Power' for any non-magic classes to be replaced by something that defines the class entirely. The Fervour and Focus system can replace the Power system for the champion and hunter classes respectively. That is all I'm asking.

The reason for this is to allow Turbine to narrow down the stats a class can invest in, so that they can invest in the more important stats.