Yes of course. It all makes sense now. It's not that your idea is worthless or anything and that you're completely deluded, it's that ALL OF US are the deluded ones and your idea is the next best thing sinced sliced bread. I don't know how I didn't realise that before. I must have forgot to turn my brain off or something.
Yes of course. It all makes sense now. It's not that your idea is worthless or anything and that you're completely deluded, it's that ALL OF US are the deluded ones and your idea is the next best thing sinced sliced bread. I don't know how I didn't realise that before. I must have forgot to turn my brain off or something.
Exactly, and this idea intends to turn on your brains. I'm glad you understand, Dorothir. You see, my idea advocates balanced gameplay and this is what makes the game more fun than what it is currently.
Exactly, and this idea intends to turn on your brains. I'm glad you understand, Dorothir. You see, my idea advocates balanced gameplay and this is what makes the game more fun than what it is currently.
I see simple sarcasm is lost on you.
Your idea doesn't advocate balanced gameplay. Your idea does nothing but to shoehorn people into the same setups in an attempt to stop you getting confused by 5 different stats (something that even a child wouldn't struggle with). So your idea of being restricted in what you do so you don't have to think may be fun for you but for those of us who do have minds older than 4 years do not find it fun to be on a linear setup.
I don't think anyone here understands what the other side is saying. Celt, Spordo, and Dor, you clearly do not understand the mechanical differences that would happen to back up this change. Meph, you're not getting through because you're using the wrong terminology, I think. Most of the reactions people have in the suggestions thread are emotional; they're not founded on development or design experience. I've tried explaining everything, but I'm going to give it a rest and come back later with a better proposal.
Oh... My... God...
Here we go again, how many times have I already explained that I understand perfectly well what the basic idea this suggestion is based upon?
My dislike for the idea has nothing to do with emotions, my strong dislike for Mephistophelis however, is very much based on emotions. Those are two different things however. The idea sucks because it makes the game plain and dull and gives people less options to play the way they want. Mephistophelis sucks because he is outright calling everybody who isn't agreeing with him idiots.
There you have it.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
I didn't say something was broken. I intended to simplify the combat system on LOTRO, because it's too complicated. I'm not saying the game is hard; I've been playing for a long time, and I know what to do. Although, how the game's combat mechanics function needs rendering. You are again misinterpreting; you assume that there is something wrong with the champion class and that the mechanics there need reworking; - no, I did not say that. I was referring to the combat mechanics on LOTRO; they need reworking.
If the game is too hard for you, go play tic-tac-toe, that should be simple enough for ya.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
It's clear that many people don't read my posts carefully, and they actually reply on what they think
I'm typing.
Trust me, I've read each and every one of your posts very carefully and I still disagree with pretty much everything you are saying.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
The fact you lot are saying that I'm trying to say my idea is attempting to fix something that's unbroken psychologically means you know that there's something broken, but because you've adapted to LOTRO's system, you frown upon ideas that attempt to change the system for the better. It's not me that's deluded, it's in fact you lot.
Yay, Dr Snuggles has a degree in psychology now as well, good for you.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
Exactly, and this idea intends to turn on your brains. I'm glad you understand, Dorothir. You see, my idea advocates balanced gameplay and this is what makes the game more fun than what it is currently.
If LoTRO isn't fun for you anymore, I (again) suggest you go play some other game.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
I see simple sarcasm is lost on you.
Your idea doesn't advocate balanced gameplay. Your idea does nothing but to shoehorn people into the same setups in an attempt to stop you getting confused by 5 different stats (something that even a child wouldn't struggle with). So your idea of being restricted in what you do so you don't have to think may be fun for you but for those of us who do have minds older than 4 years do not find it fun to be on a linear setup.
I totally agree. If anything there should be more options to play a class in the manner you want to play it. Linearity does not equal fun.
Exactly, and this idea intends to turn on your brains. I'm glad you understand, Dorothir. You see, my idea advocates balanced gameplay and this is what makes the game more fun than what it is currently.
Could you kindly explain where the more balanced game play comes into play? To the best of my knowledge, all classes have both strengths and weaknesses to them. Currently the system allows one to customize their character to their style of play, but trading off some benefits for some weakness as well. It allows one to think more about their build and find a balance that works for them.
If I want my Hunter to be the highest DPS possible, then I trade off some survivability as a penalty. The concept is not for every character to choose the highest damage capability with the highest survivability and the ability to sustain long encounters with the greatest of ease.
Simplicity does not make for a more interesting game for many. Part of the fun and pride in building a character is trying different builds and discovering the one most effective for you. It's not just pumping all your points into one stat and being a cookie cutter mold character of every other player of your class.
You say we don't comprehend your suggestion based on our not accepting the changes you propose. I say we don't accept it because we have played various classes and enjoyed the ability to experiment and find our sweet spot. The ability to have one set of armor and traits for solo/duo play, and yet another build for raiding and instances provides flexibility. You need me for the highest DPS possible and can support me in that role? I can do that! I need to solo with no backup team? I can do that as well.
Complexity hones skills. The ability to play a more complex role provides a greater appeal and draw to a long term player. I really don't care to play a game where putting the points in a single build completes my character and where gear becomes the only motivation to progress.
Could you kindly explain where the more balanced game play comes into play? To the best of my knowledge, all classes have both strengths and weaknesses to them. Currently the system allows one to customize their character to their style of play, but trading off some benefits for some weakness as well. It allows one to think more about their build and find a balance that works for them.
If I want my Hunter to be the highest DPS possible, then I trade off some survivability as a penalty. The concept is not for every character to choose the highest damage capability with the highest survivability and the ability to sustain long encounters with the greatest of ease.
Simplicity does not make for a more interesting game for many. Part of the fun and pride in building a character is trying different builds and discovering the one most effective for you. It's not just pumping all your points into one stat and being a cookie cutter mold character of every other player of your class.
You say we don't comprehend your suggestion based on our not accepting the changes you propose. I say we don't accept it because we have played various classes and enjoyed the ability to experiment and find our sweet spot. The ability to have one set of armor and traits for solo/duo play, and yet another build for raiding and instances provides flexibility. You need me for the highest DPS possible and can support me in that role? I can do that! I need to solo with no backup team? I can do that as well.
Complexity hones skills. The ability to play a more complex role provides a greater appeal and draw to a long term player. I really don't care to play a game where putting the points in a single build completes my character and where gear becomes the only motivation to progress.
Look, the purpose of my idea is to prevent players from having a broad style of gameplay which can make them derail the functions of the class.
A good idea for Zarador, Spordo and Dorothir I think Sammeek has the best idea. That is to stop Posting on here. Because there only 4 people who love Mephistophelis idea. If you post on the tread. He can post add to the tread If none of us Post. He can not Bump his own tread with out the risk of being ban. Which will make this topic vanish.
The fact is He will never understand why people play different ways. He want the game so easy that a 4 year old can play this game.
Look, the purpose of my idea is to prevent players from having a broad style of gameplay which can make them derail the functions of the class.
so you want to dumb the game down because it's too complex for you? Might I kindly suggest you go play Modern Warfare or something of the likes... *rollseyes*
also you attitude isn't helping in winning any support for your ridiculous idea either...
so you want to dumb the game down because it's too complex for you? Might I kindly suggest you go play Modern Warfare or something of the likes... *rollseyes*
also you attitude isn't helping in winning any support for your ridiculous idea either...
The game is absolutely not complex. The way the combat system works on LOTRO is actually much simpler than other games. Frankly, I'm asking for it to be made more dynamic and complex so that players have more choice in what to invest in. Instead of stats, they could invest in secondary stats, such as Finesse, Mastery etc. Primary stats should not be a focus, and it's ridiculous that players are allowed to benefit from all five primary stats.
Look, the purpose of my idea is to prevent players from having a broad style of gameplay which can make them derail the functions of the class.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
So, the reasons for this are very simple. It's to stop certain classes from benefitting from stats that have no use for them.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
This is my point. You two are clear examples of people exploiting non-champion stats for your own benefit which is not fair on other classes; and it is certainly not for on other classes to use stats of other classes. This has to stop and Turbine should stop certain classes from benefitting from certain stats.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
I think you have misunderstood my idea.
That's my point really, and it's to make sure that players are going down the right track. That's all. This is not a troll-post, but merely a justification of my idea. I couldn't reply to all of you, so I had to reply in one big chunk of text.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
Impressive, but how does this relate to my topic? The topic is about broadening the gameplay through implementing new power reserves for each class. :-)
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
It's a fact that anyone who has played as many games, be it WoW, TF2, Rift, Skyrim, KAAOF, or any other RPG/Strategy/Adventure/Action game would agree that being too broad in gameplay is not the way.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
That is all I'm suggesting, and it is certainly not much to ask. It's simply an idea to simplify each class so that their roles in the game are well defined. At the moment, every class is free to invest in whichever stats they want. I don't understand why you lot are against the idea. It wouldn't affect you anyway because you lot are compelled to invest in certain stats that are beneficial for your class.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
I didn't say something was broken. I intended to simplify the combat system on LOTRO, because it's too complicated.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
The game is absolutely not complex. The way the combat system works on LOTRO is actually much simpler than other games. Frankly, I'm asking for it to be made more dynamic and complex so that players have more choice in what to invest in.
So we need a less complex mechanisim to broaden the choices in the game by narrowing the choices and insuring that no one goes down the wrong path? Still, no thank you.
So we need a less complex mechanisim to broaden the choices in the game by narrowing the choices and insuring that no one goes down the wrong path? Still, no thank you.
Indeed, by ensuring that every class' stats are made clear to a player, and in doing so, they can vary their gameplay to qualify for the appropriate stats. So, if a champion must only invest in might and vitality, they could use virtues and gear that is appropriate for them. In doing so, they have a more broader range than a range where they can pick any stat and then have a simple gameplay.
Indeed, by ensuring that every class' stats are made clear to a player, and in doing so, they can vary their gameplay to qualify for the appropriate stats. So, if a champion must only invest in might and vitality, they could use virtues and gear that is appropriate for them. In doing so, they have a more broader range than a range where they can pick any stat and then have a simple gameplay.
Your idea DOES NOT make varied gameplay, it does the exact opposite. What we have currently DOES allow varied gameplay.
The best Champ soloers tend to invest in Fate for regen and yet you'd want to remove that because you lack the wit to see the use in the stats we have, preferring instead to limit everyone in the same way so that you don't have to get confused. Seriously, if you want paint by numbers, go buy a colouring book.
Indeed, by ensuring that every class' stats are made clear to a player, and in doing so, they can vary their gameplay to qualify for the appropriate stats. So, if a champion must only invest in might and vitality, they could use virtues and gear that is appropriate for them. In doing so, they have a more broader range than a range where they can pick any stat and then have a simple gameplay.
How does that figure? When I play my Hunter solo/duo in challenging situations, I'm going for higher Morale, even if it reduces my damage a tad. When I do more instances and group content, I'm going for higher DPS since I should have a team to back me up so long as I control my output.
You are assuming that the game wants classes to become overpowered by having gear/attributes that continues to boost their benefits beyond the design. That would only result in mobs being made more difficult to compensate. We trade off some benefits to boost others, that is a form of game balance. Think of the mobs in the game that have unique capabilities. They also have a weak spot that we utilize to take them down.
You need to choose a point of view and stick with it. I posted your responses in two posts above this one. You go from simplyfying it to make a more direct set of rules cornering the character to a fixed build, then explain how that results in a more complex build. If anything it reminds me of the old days of Everquest (1999) where the holy trinity (healer/tank/slower) was required to allow the DPS to function since classes were defined to a point of being tunneled into their role with litlle flexibility. It was rather boring after a few years of play since you had the same role in every group (for the most part).
Can you elaborate? Do you refer to the stages of the transition from power to my system?
You said you INTEND for this idea to be taken into account. I quoted that in my response. You frequently accuse people of not reading your posts. You aren't demonstrating that you read your own posts.
Your use of the word intend indicates that you believe you have some ability to make Turbine do this or that. I take leave to doubt it.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
Look, the purpose of my idea is to prevent players from having a broad style of gameplay which can make them derail the functions of the class.
Fascist much?
~Memphis Belle~
Sikozu: Do you have any plan of escape?
Aeryn: Run.
Sikozu: Anything more detailed, Aeryn?
Aeryn: Run quickly.
I am rather confuzzled as to why people do not enjoy this idea. I think it's a good way of making this game better, because adds variety to gameplay.
That's exactly it, it doesn't. Currently, if a champ wants to go solo, they can invest in fate and vit, to help with their defences. If they want to go for pure DPS, they can invest in might and agi. If they want to go for tank stance, they can go for vit and might, with some fate. If they're in a DPS race with massive power problems, they can get some will to compensate.
Your idea cuts all of that apart and limits them to just DPS. So it doesn't make varied gameplay, it limits it.
In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes. When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead
The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.
That's exactly it, it doesn't. Currently, if a champ wants to go solo, they can invest in fate and vit, to help with their defences. If they want to go for pure DPS, they can invest in might and agi. If they want to go for tank stance, they can go for vit and might, with some fate. If they're in a DPS race with massive power problems, they can get some will to compensate.
Your idea cuts all of that apart and limits them to just DPS. So it doesn't make varied gameplay, it limits it.
Fate currently gives crit rating and in-combat morale/power regen. So, champions can get crit rating from agility too. They don't need fate, and there aren't enough items to award fate at a substantial level. Vitality, yes, that's important for a champion.
By the way, it is exactly my point of this idea. It is is to limit a class to fewer roles. A champion's role is to either tank or DPS. If they want to DPS, they need to invest in Might and Vitality, and more or less the same with the tank. Although, the thing is, classes should be encouraged to invest in secondary stats such as Physical Mastery/Mitigation or Finesse rating, rather than using primary stats to gain those secondary stats. This is another reason as to why Fate/Will should be disabled for champions; it provides no benefit while its benefits can be obtained through other stats. It's also unfair that champions gain access to all types of armour and can benefit likewise to suit their playstyle. This creates imbalance and it is unfair for other classes.
Fate currently gives crit rating and in-combat morale/power regen. So, champions can get crit rating from agility too. They don't need fate, and there aren't enough items to award fate at a substantial level. Vitality, yes, that's important for a champion.
It's particularly important to have fate when you're performing solo feats.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
By the way, it is exactly my point of this idea. It is is to limit a class to fewer roles. A champion's role is to either tank or DPS. If they want to DPS, they need to invest in Might and Vitality, and more or less the same with the tank. Although, the thing is, classes should be encouraged to invest in secondary stats such as Physical Mastery/Mitigation or Finesse rating, rather than using primary stats to gain those secondary stats. This is another reason as to why Fate/Will should be disabled for champions; it provides no benefit while its benefits can be obtained through other stats. It's also unfair that champions gain access to all types of armour and can benefit likewise to suit their playstyle. This creates imbalance and it is unfair for other classes.
A champ has 2 roles in a group, yes. But when they're solo, they don't have a role, they're just solo. When it comes to solo, fate is still important, so it does provide a benefit. So it shouldn't be disabled because people use it.
Also, a champ who wants to DPS and has might and vitality, not might and agility, will be worse at DPSing than those with might and agi.
And what is your actual aim? You keep saying you want to broaden gameplay but then you come out and say you want to limit gameplay. Which is it?
By the way, it is exactly my point of this idea. It is is to limit a class to fewer roles. A champion's role is to either tank or DPS.
Which is the point everybody has been trying to get you to understand that we don't want that and we don't agree with you that we should be forced into such strict roles.
I am rather confuzzled as to why people do not enjoy this idea. I think it's a good way of making this game better, because adds variety to gameplay.
Two reasons:
1.) People are inherently resistant to change
2.) They use their lack of understanding as a shield.
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Fell deeds awake; fire and slaughter! LOTROcalypse: a blog about LOTRO's features and systems. http://lotrocalypse.blogspot.com/
Which is the point everybody has been trying to get you to understand that we don't want that and we don't agree with you that we should be forced into such strict roles.
That does not entertain us;
simple = boring = bad
What, do you tame a donkey now? LOTRO is already simple because everyone is forced to use Power as a secondary vital!
What, do you tame a donkey now? LOTRO is already simple because everyone is forced to use Power as a secondary vital!
So let me get this straight. You want to remove classes being able to use certain stats, that they can still benefit from for different occasions, so that you can shoehorn them all into one set up, which apparently then gives more variation (which is like claiming that taking icecream flavours out but leaving strawberry will increase icecream variation). Then you want to remove power (for some unknown reason), to replace it with another form of Fervour?
Seriously, you should really just give up with this idea now. You're attempting to fix something that isn't broken in a way that is sure to ruin it.
I am rather confuzzled as to why people do not enjoy this idea. I think it's a good way of making this game better, because adds variety to gameplay.
No one is confused, those opposed understand and simply do not agree with your suggestion.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
By the way, it is exactly my point of this idea. It is is to limit a class to fewer roles. A champion's role is to either tank or DPS. If they want to DPS, they need to invest in Might and Vitality, and more or less the same with the tank. Although, the thing is, classes should be encouraged to invest in secondary stats such as Physical Mastery/Mitigation or Finesse rating, rather than using primary stats to gain those secondary stats. This is another reason as to why Fate/Will should be disabled for champions; it provides no benefit while its benefits can be obtained through other stats. It's also unfair that champions gain access to all types of armour and can benefit likewise to suit their playstyle. This creates imbalance and it is unfair for other classes.
So we gain more variety by removing options and limiting class flexibility? Then we gain more variety by restricting the gear choices? How exactly is balance achieved by pouring all the points into two stats and creating characters that become overpowered because they no longer have to balance their stats? You are not addressing the fact that game balance also includes the NPCs that we battle. Removing the throttle of having to spread out the points to be a balanced character would require that the mobs be given the same benefits. What about the classes that already have difficulties soloing certain types of content because they are hybrid classes that are great support characters but not so great DPS. Do they get gimped further since support is their primary role resulting in forced grouping?
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
What, do you tame a donkey now? LOTRO is already simple because everyone is forced to use Power as a secondary vital!
Lets get it straight. Because Power is needed by everyone, it is not a secondary vital. It is going beyond the need for enough power to use the skills and enough health to survive that defines the character and provides the variety. Perhaps it is because you have such a simplistic view on the issue that you can't see beyond ME GOT HEALTH AND OTHER BAR FULL. ME FIGHT issue.
By simplistic I mean you are boxing the entire build into two bars with no nuances addressed. Read some of the threads out there talking about traiting/gearing for raids/instances. You will discover that many players appreciate that they can utilize their character in various roles by simply changing some gear and traits around. The players ability to balance their character or tweak them if you may based on the demands of the encounters is what makes the game interesting. Not "One build fits all".
Strange as it might sound, one of the enjoyable features of playing the game is the ability to do it all wrong and learn by that mistake. Wrong as in making a Hunter with more morale than a level 75 signature/elite mob and the DPS of level 2 mob. Yeah, I survived, but 12 hours later the mob fell asleep. So then you try with a build that gives you the morale of the level 2 and the DPS of the level 75 and you almost one shot the elite, but fall over a twig and die. Finding that sweet spot between the two is what it all comes down to in the end. No, I don't want the game to do that for me.
No one is confused, those opposed understand and simply do not agree with your suggestion.
So we gain more variety by removing options and limiting class flexibility? Then we gain more variety by restricting the gear choices? How exactly is balance achieved by pouring all the points into two stats and creating characters that become overpowered because they no longer have to balance their stats? You are not addressing the fact that game balance also includes the NPCs that we battle. Removing the throttle of having to spread out the points to be a balanced character would require that the mobs be given the same benefits. What about the classes that already have difficulties soloing certain types of content because they are hybrid classes that are great support characters but not so great DPS. Do they get gimped further since support is their primary role resulting in forced grouping?
Lets get it straight. Because Power is needed by everyone, it is not a secondary vital. It is going beyond the need for enough power to use the skills and enough health to survive that defines the character and provides the variety. Perhaps it is because you have such a simplistic view on the issue that you can't see beyond ME GOT HEALTH AND OTHER BAR FULL. ME FIGHT issue.
By simplistic I mean you are boxing the entire build into two bars with no nuances addressed. Read some of the threads out there talking about traiting/gearing for raids/instances. You will discover that many players appreciate that they can utilize their character in various roles by simply changing some gear and traits around. The players ability to balance their character or tweak them if you may based on the demands of the encounters is what makes the game interesting. Not "One build fits all".
Strange as it might sound, one of the enjoyable features of playing the game is the ability to do it all wrong and learn by that mistake. Wrong as in making a Hunter with more morale than a level 75 signature/elite mob and the DPS of level 2 mob. Yeah, I survived, but 12 hours later the mob fell asleep. So then you try with a build that gives you the morale of the level 2 and the DPS of the level 75 and you almost one shot the elite, but fall over a twig and die. Finding that sweet spot between the two is what it all comes down to in the end. No, I don't want the game to do that for me.
Well, let's think of it so: why does the system exist anyway? Both systems.
LOTRO's system: advantages and disadvantages;
ADVANTAGES
-It's easy to understand; suitable for all players
-It gives way for game developers to implement a neater balance sheet for all classes
-It promotes equality among classes, such that no class is better nor worse than the other
-No class is at advantage to one another
DISADVANTAGES
-Gameplay is simple
-Lack of variety with regards to how players should invest in stats
-Skills are dictated by a priority system
-Makes cloth wearer classes at advantage to non-cloth wearing classes, because they are more Will and Fate orientated.
-Certain classes who rely on stats other than Will or Fate are at disadvantage to those who do
Now we'll look at the advantages and disadvantages of the contemporary combat system (my suggestion):
ADVANTAGES
-It adds variety to gameplay
-It enables a player to follow a rotation system as to how one can build up Rage, or use up Energy efficiently or conserve Mana and use it effectively.
-It compels players to invest in stats that are relevant for their class
-It makes classes more recognisable
-It makes classes more realistic as to how they originally function. E.g. a warrior doesn't use mana for wielding a sword
-It makes players invest in secondary stats, such as Physical Mastery, or Physical Mitigation, and so forth, which greatly increases their resolve rather than investing in only primary stats.
DISADVANTAGES
-It makes gameplay more difficult (Could be an advantage for advanced players)
-This is because players will now have to learn their class in more depth and explore as to what's good for the class and what is not
-It limits the class; the class is only limited to their own function, unless it is a hybrid class (e.g. the captain)
Now we'll look at the advantages and disadvantages of the contemporary combat system (my suggestion):
ADVANTAGES
1-It adds variety to gameplay
2-It enables a player to follow a rotation system as to how one can build up Rage, or use up Energy efficiently or conserve Mana and use it effectively.
3-It compels players to invest in stats that are relevant for their class
4-It makes classes more recognisable
5-It makes classes more realistic as to how they originally function. E.g. a warrior doesn't use mana for wielding a sword
6-It makes players invest in secondary stats, such as Physical Mastery, or Physical Mitigation, and so forth, which greatly increases their resolve rather than investing in only primary stats.
DISADVANTAGES
7-It makes gameplay more difficult (Could be an advantage for advanced players)
8-This is because players will now have to learn their class in more depth and explore as to what's good for the class and what is not
9-It limits the class; the class is only limited to their own function, unless it is a hybrid class (e.g. the captain)
(Numbers mine).
The current LOTRO system already includes/encourages/is built on 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9. 5 and 7 are arguably already present as well, but for the sake of argument let's say that they're not.
You want an entirely new system simply so that:
-Classes use more "appropriately named" energy resources, and;
-Gameplay (allegedly) becomes more difficult?
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
The current LOTRO system already includes/encourages/is built on 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9. 5 and 7 are arguably already present as well, but for the sake of argument let's say that they're not.
You want an entirely new system simply so that:
-Classes use more "appropriately named" energy resources, and;
-Gameplay (allegedly) becomes more difficult?
When I say difficult, with regards to gameplay, I mean more advanced.
Indeed, by ensuring that every class' stats are made clear to a player, and in doing so, they can vary their gameplay to qualify for the appropriate stats. So, if a champion must only invest in might and vitality, they could use virtues and gear that is appropriate for them. In doing so, they have a more broader range than a range where they can pick any stat and then have a simple gameplay.
Huh? If someone's virtues and gear benefit them, then the aforementioned virtues and gear are appropriate.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
The game is absolutely not complex. The way the combat system works on LOTRO is actually much simpler than other games. Frankly, I'm asking for it to be made more dynamic and complex so that players have more choice in what to invest in. Instead of stats, they could invest in secondary stats, such as Finesse, Mastery etc. Primary stats should not be a focus, and it's ridiculous that players are allowed to benefit from all five primary stats.
You just said that you wanted less complexity in the last quoted post. Also, so what if I want to make a hybrid melee/debuff LM? Is that your problem? No.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
Well, let's think of it so: why does the system exist anyway? Both systems.
LOTRO's system: advantages and disadvantages;
ADVANTAGES
-It's easy to understand; suitable for all players
-It gives way for game developers to implement a neater balance sheet for all classes
-It promotes equality among classes, such that no class is better nor worse than the other1
-No class is at advantage to one another1
DISADVANTAGES
-Gameplay is simple
-Lack of variety with regards to how players should invest in stats2
-Skills are dictated by a priority system
-Makes cloth wearer classes at advantage to non-cloth wearing classes, because they are more Will and Fate orientated.3
-Certain classes who rely on stats other than Will or Fate are at disadvantage to those who do4
Now we'll look at the advantages and disadvantages of the contemporary combat system (my suggestion):
ADVANTAGES
-It adds variety to gameplay
-It enables a player to follow a rotation system as to how one can build up Rage, or use up Energy efficiently or conserve Mana and use it effectively.
-It compels players to invest in stats that are relevant for their class5
-It makes classes more recognisable
-It makes classes more realistic as to how they originally function. E.g. a warrior doesn't use mana for wielding a sword6
-It makes players invest in secondary stats, such as Physical Mastery, or Physical Mitigation, and so forth, which greatly increases their resolve rather than investing in only primary stats.7
DISADVANTAGES
-It makes gameplay more difficult (Could be an advantage for advanced players)8
-This is because players will now have to learn their class in more depth and explore as to what's good for the class and what is not9
-It limits the class; the class is only limited to their own function, unless it is a hybrid class (e.g. the captain)10
1You repeated yourself here, just bringing that up. 2Isn't a lack of stat variety what you're working towards by eliminating the possiblity of a melee cloth wearer? Please don't contradict yourself, it makes you look bad. 3Not really; you heavy/medium armor guys can take a hit without exploding into a cloud of pajama-clothed chunks of flesh, and you also can match us in both sustained and burst damage. Also, you're contradicting the first point I countered. 4Repeated yourself again. Also, other classes that don't use Will or Fate for offence still benefit from it. I'm an RK, and I find the little boost to Agility Elves get helpful at times. 5Once again, it's not a matter of stats being relevant to a class, it's a matter of stats being relevant to a playstyle. Will is relevant to a Champ with power problems, Agility is helpful to insecure soloing LMs, etc. 6POWER ISN'T MANA! WHEN WILL YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?! 7What do you mean by 'resolve'? Also, aren't ICPR and straight up Power boosts secondary stats as well? 8Rage in WoW at low levels isn't complex or difficult. It's annoying, especially when you're using a 2H weapon and combat moves at the pace of frozen molasses. 9We already have to do that with the current system. 10What makes this game great is that, to an extent, all classes are hybrids.
"What can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the reaper man?"
Huh? If someone's virtues and gear benefit them, then the aforementioned virtues and gear are appropriate.
You just said that you wanted less complexity in the last quoted post. Also, so what if I want to make a hybrid melee/debuff LM? Is that your problem? No.
1You repeated yourself here, just bringing that up. 2Isn't a lack of stat variety what you're working towards by eliminating the possiblity of a melee cloth wearer? Please don't contradict yourself, it makes you look bad. 3Not really; you heavy/medium armor guys can take a hit without exploding into a cloud of pajama-clothed chunks of flesh, and you also can match us in both sustained and burst damage. Also, you're contradicting the first point I countered. 4Repeated yourself again. Also, other classes that don't use Will or Fate for offence still benefit from it. I'm an RK, and I find the little boost to Agility Elves get helpful at times. 5Once again, it's not a matter of stats being relevant to a class, it's a matter of stats being relevant to a playstyle. Will is relevant to a Champ with power problems, Agility is helpful to insecure soloing LMs, etc. 6POWER ISN'T MANA! WHEN WILL YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?! 7What do you mean by 'resolve'? Also, aren't ICPR and straight up Power boosts secondary stats as well? 8Rage in WoW at low levels isn't complex or difficult. It's annoying, especially when you're using a 2H weapon and combat moves at the pace of frozen molasses. 9We already have to do that with the current system. 10What makes this game great is that, to an extent, all classes are hybrids.
You are deluding yourself, my friend. All classes aren't hybrids. And as far as the game industry is aware, anything 'blue' as a secondary reserve is called mana, be it the term is power, MP or mana itself. Sorry to burst your bubble. :-))))))))))))))))))
All classes aren't hybrids. And as far as the game industry is aware, anything 'blue' as a secondary reserve is called mana, be it the term is power, MP or mana itself.
And when you are having a generic conversation about a generic game in a generic forum, you can call it "mana". Here, it's power, and only people unfamiliar with the basic concepts on which LotRO is built would call it "mana". Or people who want to change the game into a generic game ... Even calling power "a secondary reserve" indicates a basic lack of understanding.
All classes do indeed have the potential to be hybrids. It's unfortunate that you've never met anyone able to play a class to its fullest. I have. And I don't want to see those people restricted by the changes you are advocating. This game does not need the kind of corset you find comfortable.
~Memphis Belle~
Sikozu: Do you have any plan of escape?
Aeryn: Run.
Sikozu: Anything more detailed, Aeryn?
Aeryn: Run quickly.
You are deluding yourself, my friend. All classes aren't hybrids. And as far as the game industry is aware, anything 'blue' as a secondary reserve is called mana, be it the term is power, MP or mana itself. Sorry to burst your bubble. :-))))))))))))))))))
Erm, I think a Champ can function as a dodge tank, Guards can do okay DPS if needed, Hunters can act as CC at times, Cappys are the hybrid class, LMs can function as off-healers, burst DPSers, power batteries, etc., RKs are of course DPSers and healers, Wardens now have a ranged DPS spec, Burglars can do respectable DPS, and Minstrels are capable of being buffers on par with Cappys, I think. You seem to be deluding yourself, Meph. This isn't WoW. Of course, anyone can just play one playstyle, but it takes much more skill to be able to fill two or three roles. (At different times, of course.)
No, not everything blue is 'mana'. Power certainly isn't because there's nothing magic about it. It's kind of like how much exhaustion you can stave off through your willpower. Also, technically, RKs, LMs, and Minstrel's don't use 'magic', they're supposed to use, respectively, powers innate in patterns of runes (or something like that), knowledge of how the world works, and music used to create Middle-Earth, none of which requires some sort of magical resource to work.
What is ':-)))))))))))))))))', anyway? A smiling giraffe with multiple chins?
"What can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the reaper man?"
I may have poped an artery in my brain after reading first 3 pages of this thread. As a result a skiped to last page just to read more or less the same: one person using the words <mana> and <rage> alot while other patiently (or not) trying to explain that is another game alltogheter. Very amusing to read, especially on a mobile phone where Mephi's walls of text fill many many screens. So thers only one thing i can do, ill post a troll reply (cant think of a more sensible thing to do really).
I suggest to let all classes have only one stat so 5 yer old kids could grasp it. Let all classes wear all types of items, since thers one stat so 5 year olds dont put wrong gear on them. And finally give all separate weirdly named <things> to power up their skills since its OUTRAGEOUS for a <magic> class to use the same <thing> for skills as a <barbarian> (or whatever the dude said). Obviously that will make the game better just because.
Now that i got that out i need to post somethign serious to:
Maybe Mephi has not noticed in his 5 years experience with LOTRO in which he clearly (didnt) level more than a champion that some skills might even cost morale, some nothing, some give back. Each class has a mechanic that gates skill usage, in its own specific and fun (focus, fervour etc). But the fact we all use power and that some classes have alot of it and other dont gives the players a reason to think.
Ill explain: some said tanks should have i dont know what rage that would never end. Why? because they are power hungry and cant have both power and survivibility? Well in LOTRO you can choose: get some will+fate items to boost power/ think on your skill rotations better so you use less/ always stock up on pots/ never go out without a LM.
And in the end: LOTRO is based on lore. Characters done make <spells> they use their abilities and that exhausts their power. Its as easy as that. If anyone doesnt like that go play another game, nobody is forcing LOTRO on you so you might aswell stop forcing (yes you are trying to convince others of your oppinions just because you want to====forcing) your thoughts on an innocent audience. And really if ill read a reply with <mana> and <rage> in the next pages ill really feel like we are talking to the deaf (but for sure not mute).
You are deluding yourself, my friend. All classes aren't hybrids. And as far as the game industry is aware, anything 'blue' as a secondary reserve is called mana, be it the term is power, MP or mana itself. Sorry to burst your bubble. :-))))))))))))))))))
I think we have a Game Theory PhD on our hands here (claps hands). By his elevated language throghout the thread he should be at least post teenager. That leads me to think he is either a currently unemployed ex programer dissmised for his short-sightness in thinking or a forver unemployed "profesional" gamer that deludes himself into thinking games are a job. Or of course a kid with very elevated language.
As far as the game industry is aware people that post the same things over and over are considered obsolete.
There i had to be ironic, he just called for it.....hope at least some might be amused.
EDIT: forced myself into browsing two more pages of this thread :P its epic....pure epic....most amusing
Last edited by Landrovas; Mar 23 2012 at 06:32 PM.
At the end of the day, it was only a suggestion. I simply refer to any 'blue' power reserve as mana, regardless of what it's really called. If you saw a blue power reserve without knowing what it's true name were, you'd pretty much call it mana.
Therefore, power = mana. There, point proven.
Now, we need to make mana more recognisable and actually appeal to cloth wearing classes. Plate armour classes should use Rage, and leather armour classes should use Energy. It makes far more sense and it suits the class mechanics better. Remember, that a hybrid class isn't always the way.
On WoW, the Paladin is a clear example of a hybrid class in which they can heal, tank and DPS. That is what you call a hybrid class. Why? It's because the class uses two different stats as its boost power reserve.
The champion is not a hybrid class because regardless of which spec you are, you must invest in might, agility or vitality. That's completely fine. This must be made more recognised and in order to do so, will and fate must be disabled for the class, or otherwise champions can become overpowered. It's not fair on other classes.
Ironic, there are no hybrid classes on LOTRO because every class follows a linear pattern. That's fine too, I have no objection to that. It actually makes classes seem unique, and that's the key thing Turbine have kept intact. Now, I want that idea of uniqueness to be taken further, and instead of every class using mana, they should use a power resource for their own skills. I am aware that certain skills require health, that's fine, but don't let every class use the same power resource because it doesn't work. Firstly, none of the classes are hybrid, therefore there is no reason whatsoever to have the system in place. Secondly, it makes classes less unique and it vouches for simple gameplay because it favours a priority system, which can make the class role seem unflexible.
The champion class has the combat system of 'Fervour', and using that instead of power would make the class seem more like a champion class. The tools are there, it is only in Turbine's hands to actually manage them efficiently. Why, in real life, if everyone ate and drank the same daily and nightly, would you not find that awkward? I would feel alienated and undefined. I want to stand out and be different, and with Turbine implementing my suggestion, it makes classes more recognisable and it makes players stand out from the rest.
Why on Arda is it your intention to not allow this to happen?
Glad that works for you, but it's still a power bar representing ones power remaining to accomplish their abilities. It's not mana, because as some pointed out rather well, we are not magical beings and magic is limited in it's use in Middle Earth. It's more akin to endurance as in our ability to call on inner strength to perform our tasks.
You keep referring how it would make classes more powerful as if changing the balance of the game is in the best interests of the game. Balance however is akin to the water rising while in a boat. Increasing the ability of our player characters requires them to offset that increase with more difficult challenges resulting in a slow and painful return to center. Painful as in the results are not always favorable. Either we become the windshield or the bug while the experimentation to reach center continues.
Many years ago Everquest released an expansion that was designed 5 levels higher without increasing the character abilities of the players. It was intended that the players would also be upgraded to be able to accomplish that content, but that fell behind and it was released anyway. Only a small percentage of the population could accomplish the content and even then, it was a grueling and daunting task that few cared to continue doing. Why? Because the balance was offset and the results were not good.
Cringing at this, they worked on some upgrades and level increases to correct the problem. The pendulum swung in the other direction. To be prepared for that content made the other content of that level trivial and boring at best. Shifting the balance from one end ruined the content that was introduced at that level. Shifting it to compensate ruined the pre-existing content that was on the same numerical level, but far less challenging. Think of it as making elite mobs the general mobs of a yard trash quest area, then gearing you up to be able to kill those mobs while making the same level mobs in different areas one shot kills. Balance changes done on a whim can ruin content quite quickly.
Even if I agreed with your suggestions, which I do not, changing the mechanics of a game that is already established can ruin a game. Look at the SWG NGE (New Game Experience) for a real life example. The game never fully recovered even years later.
Instead of addressing this issue as Champs don't need mana, address it in Arda terms for what it actually is. Classes that we assume to be magic based are not since magic is rare in Middle Earth (Take Tolkien's word for it, not mine). They draw from their inner strength which we call power, like any other class to use abilities, not magic.
A good analogy would be sleep in real life. A fighter, a scientist, a doctor and a lawyer all will loose their capacity to function at some point without sleep. They all perform vastly different tasks, yet they all fail without enough rest to rejuvenate them. We can call it rest or sleep or relaxing, yet the effect is the same overall.
I in fact have referred to the blue bar as mana many times having played online games for years. That however does not change the bar into a mana bar. I do however accept that it is a blue bar that is used by all classes to be able to perform tasks. I fully understand the concept behind the blue bar and in fact appreciate it as innovative in that it does provide a degree of flexibility and customization. Allowing me to think more and experiment more makes the game far more interesting. I like the ability to do it wrong and then learn by my experimentation what is right for my play style.
I simply refer to any 'blue' power reserve as mana, regardless of what it's really called. If you saw a blue power reserve without knowing what it's true name were, you'd pretty much call it mana.
No, I pretty much wouldn't, and I pretty much don't. I try to find out what unknown things are before imposing my preconceptions on them. This is especially true in systems design, which is what I do for a living. Using inaccurate and misleading terminology inevitably results in misunderstandings, poor design, and faulty implementation.
And if you have been playing this game for five years, as you claim, you have no excuse for not knowing what it is called.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
Therefore, power = mana. There, point proven.
The only thing this proves is that you believe that your point of view defines common reality. It doesn't.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
On WoW, the Paladin is a clear example of a hybrid class in which they can heal, tank and DPS. That is what you call a hybrid class. Why? It's because the class uses two different stats as its boost power reserve.
That is an example of a hybrid class on WoW. LotRO is not WoW. A hybrid class on LotRO is a class that can function effectively in multiple roles. You are attempting to impose a generic model on a specific game.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
...there are no hybrid classes on LOTRO because every class follows a linear pattern. ... It actually makes classes seem unique ... it makes classes less unique
Oh, do make up your mind.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
... with Turbine implementing my suggestion, it makes classes more recognisable and it makes players stand out from the rest.
It would force players, who now have the ability to build their characters in a way that suits their play style, to build their characters in a very limited way that suits your restrictive and highly generic notion of what each class should be.
Originally Posted by Mephistophelis
Why on Arda is it your intention to not allow this to happen?
Kndly disabuse your mind of the idea that any of us here have the power to allow or prevent Turbine's doing anything. I do not subscribe to this idea, therefore I have no "intention" in the case.
~Memphis Belle~
Sikozu: Do you have any plan of escape?
Aeryn: Run.
Sikozu: Anything more detailed, Aeryn?
Aeryn: Run quickly.
For 11 pages Mephistophelis is argueing how his idea would improve the game. For 11 pages different people explain kindly how it would not, but rather make things worse. On page 12 Mephistophelis will explain how his idea would improve the game. If we could harness the power of a forum this would be a perpetuum mobile . Sorry but i cant take this post seriously, i just cant....
Glad that works for you, but it's still a power bar representing ones power remaining to accomplish their abilities. It's not mana, because as some pointed out rather well, we are not magical beings and magic is limited in it's use in Middle Earth. It's more akin to endurance as in our ability to call on inner strength to perform our tasks.
You keep referring how it would make classes more powerful as if changing the balance of the game is in the best interests of the game. Balance however is akin to the water rising while in a boat. Increasing the ability of our player characters requires them to offset that increase with more difficult challenges resulting in a slow and painful return to center. Painful as in the results are not always favorable. Either we become the windshield or the bug while the experimentation to reach center continues.
Many years ago Everquest released an expansion that was designed 5 levels higher without increasing the character abilities of the players. It was intended that the players would also be upgraded to be able to accomplish that content, but that fell behind and it was released anyway. Only a small percentage of the population could accomplish the content and even then, it was a grueling and daunting task that few cared to continue doing. Why? Because the balance was offset and the results were not good.
Cringing at this, they worked on some upgrades and level increases to correct the problem. The pendulum swung in the other direction. To be prepared for that content made the other content of that level trivial and boring at best. Shifting the balance from one end ruined the content that was introduced at that level. Shifting it to compensate ruined the pre-existing content that was on the same numerical level, but far less challenging. Think of it as making elite mobs the general mobs of a yard trash quest area, then gearing you up to be able to kill those mobs while making the same level mobs in different areas one shot kills. Balance changes done on a whim can ruin content quite quickly.
Even if I agreed with your suggestions, which I do not, changing the mechanics of a game that is already established can ruin a game. Look at the SWG NGE (New Game Experience) for a real life example. The game never fully recovered even years later.
Instead of addressing this issue as Champs don't need mana, address it in Arda terms for what it actually is. Classes that we assume to be magic based are not since magic is rare in Middle Earth (Take Tolkien's word for it, not mine). They draw from their inner strength which we call power, like any other class to use abilities, not magic.
A good analogy would be sleep in real life. A fighter, a scientist, a doctor and a lawyer all will loose their capacity to function at some point without sleep. They all perform vastly different tasks, yet they all fail without enough rest to rejuvenate them. We can call it rest or sleep or relaxing, yet the effect is the same overall.
I in fact have referred to the blue bar as mana many times having played online games for years. That however does not change the bar into a mana bar. I do however accept that it is a blue bar that is used by all classes to be able to perform tasks. I fully understand the concept behind the blue bar and in fact appreciate it as innovative in that it does provide a degree of flexibility and customization. Allowing me to think more and experiment more makes the game far more interesting. I like the ability to do it wrong and then learn by my experimentation what is right for my play style.
Very well written, but 'Power' in its sense is too vague. Referring to the fighter, scientist and doctor example, these people gain power through multiple ways. Why, have we even left out caffeine, sugar and other ways of gaining power? Sleep is equivalent to logging out on LOTRO.
With regards to power, each class must have their own unique way of generating it. I acknowledge that every class is not the same. Lore master =/= champion. A lore master can generate power, but a champion's skill in that field can be limited.
If a champion had a power resource called 'Fervour' or 'Rage', then I can still call that power in the game's combat terms, because it is a power resource. Infact, Fervour at its current state can be described as a power resource because it is what causes the champion to execute powerful skills.
Mana is a variant of power; it is what cloth armour classes use. On LOTRO, the use of the term 'power' was made controversial because every class has a blue-power resource and everyone on sight mistakens it for mana, which in yours words, is not.
I understand what your argument is, and you think my suggestion can ruin the game with regards to balance, but I assure you that is not the intention. Remember, this is not EvE; this is LOTRO.
If we replace the champion's Power with Fervour. Fervour would have a maximum value of 100, and by default will start at 0. The champion can only use Wild Attack and Swift Strike to generate Fervour as normal. Then, when the champion reaches 80 Fervour, they can execute skills like Ferocious Strikes or Remorseless/Relentless Strike. Other ways of generating Fervour are by auto-attacking the target. Now, if you think about how long it would take to reach 100 Fervour, it honestly could take a few seconds. Whereas in the current system, if you have Battle Frenzy traited, then you would execute Remorseless Strike asap. What my system does, it introduces a rotation for the champion to follow. "How do I get from point A to Point X?" In real life, when you want to achieve an aim, you don't just go there like magic. You have to set some objectives. What my system does is it allows combat to be structured so that every battle has an aim with decisive thinking as to how it should be met.
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(claps hands). By his elevated language throghout the thread he should be at least post teenager. That leads me to think he is either a currently unemployed ex programer dissmised for his short-sightness in thinking or a forver unemployed "profesional" gamer that deludes himself into thinking games are a job. Or of course a kid with very elevated language.
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