So, this may be old-hat to some, but our kin has primarily been using a minstrel or RK to heal the tank in Draigoch. However, we're a bit short on main healer classes lately, and I hear some rumors about some of you epic captains healing the tank on Draigoch's head in the past.
Questions I have before I try it:
1) Do we get defeat responses triggered from a far distance when they kill the lower two paws? Will I be able to access RC consistently?
2) Can a capt step out and use the melee attacks on the head without turning into a dragon snack, or should they be LOS the entire time as with the minstrels/RK's?
3) What are the differences for capt healing with a guardian vs. warden?
4) Any other tips for pulling off this task successfully?
*sword salute*
Dernière modification par Lupini ; 25/02/2012 à 13h18.
1) Do we get defeat responses triggered when they kill the lower two paws? Will I be able to access RC consistently?
Yes. Not terribly consistently since you will only be killing 2 paws in the early phases. If you have exemplary DPS, you may be getting all 4 paws in later rounds, but probably only 3 when fully debuffed. Healing will consist of spamming WoC during the tunnel phases.
2) Can a capt step out and use the melee attacks on the head without turning into a dragon snack, or should they be LOS the entire time as with the minstrels/RK's?
You may be able to take a couple hits, but it's not worth it. Valiant strike, inspire or gambling on a dev blow crit are not worth taking a couple 2k hits, especially if your tank is late in telling you which direction to go in phase 2.
3) What are the differences for capt healing with a guardian vs. warden?
Wardens are just less consistent. They will BPE everything for a while, then a huge Dev will get through, forcing you to burn ToN and possibly risk melee (though I still dont' recommend it).
4) Any other tips for pulling off this task successfully?
Have your tank learn the trick for not taking any damage during the tunnel phases.
Just last night I tanked Draigoch's head with a captain for a healer. It can and has been done quite nicely. I've also healed the instance many times on my minstrel; it seems to me that the group heals of a minstrel or runekeeper are more useful downstairs than are the single-target heals upstairs.
The head can be tanked by a very well-geared and well-played guardian without any healer whatsoever (I am not yet such a guardian). A very good warden might be able to do it, too. The point here is that minstrel or runekeeper healing is not really needed up top. I healing-traited loremaster may even be up to the task.
There is no reason for the healer to come out from hiding. The purpose of the tank is simply to hold the head's attention. No damage is done to the head, so there is no reason for more than the tank to be in harm's way.
There is no reason for the healer to come out from hiding. The purpose of the tank is simply to hold the head's attention. No damage is done to the head, so there is no reason for more than the tank to be in harm's way.
your sig says you have a captain alt so you ought to know that two of our heals come from melee skills. As well as the chance to crit to get more rally cries.
if you're referring to exploiting the head so it does no damage, that's a little different.
@lupini - melee range is too risky. Captains can heal a decently geared guardian. Wardens are tougher, but doable. Unfortunately it's a case of shield bro & WoC spam for pretty much the whole fight. I'd recommend traiting strength from within as you'll need to replenish the life you lose from WoC.
if you're referring to exploiting the head so it does no damage, that's a little different.
JWBarry basically said that if there is an unintended mechanic from proper use of a classes skills, its not an exploit. Look for his responses concerning burgs in Orthanc. They know about this tactic and they haven't fixed it. Until such time as they do, or come out and say it's an illegitimate tactic, I am going to assume that Turbine thinks it's fine.
your sig says you have a captain alt so you ought to know that two of our heals come from melee skills. As well as the chance to crit to get more rally cries.
if you're referring to exploiting the head so it does no damage, that's a little different.
Forgive my incomplete response. Yes, I do play a captain alt, but have never healed as a captain in any instance like Draigoch, so felt I'd leave it to capable captains to explain things from a captain's perspective. I am aware of the melee healing skills of a captain, and should have referred specifically to those in my first post. From my experience as a guardian tanking the head, the captain who was healing me seemed susceptible to huge burst damage that did not phase my guardian. I don't feel that access to melee healing skills is worth risking the captain's death.
I should add that I relied on regular use of my own self-heals, as well as keeping my defenses active. I'm not sure what the "no damage" exploit consists of; we were taking damage! The guardian healing me was on his first Draigoch run and not well-geared; I did not examine his traiting.
I have found that my cappy can heal the tank sufficiently for phases 1 and 2, as long as I stay out of range of the head and move quickly when Draigoch changes places. The times I've been hit have been due to not staying out of range, or being a little slow on following the tank. If you use shield-brother on the tank and make sure to keep your SB buffs up at appropriate moments, I really don't think you need the melee healing skills up top.
I've been healed up top by a LM while on my guard and I have healed it on my cappy so it is definitely doable. I've also seen a warden solo the head so healing a well geared shouldn't be a problem. And yes, the tanks were taking damage in these cases.
On the topic of melee heals, they're not needed and I'd say they're too dangerous. After WoC spamming costs morale. Adding some crits from the head on top of that could cause you real difficulty keeping yourself up.
JWBarry basically said that if there is an unintended mechanic from proper use of a classes skills, its not an exploit. Look for his responses concerning burgs in Orthanc. They know about this tactic and they haven't fixed it. Until such time as they do, or come out and say it's an illegitimate tactic, I am going to assume that Turbine thinks it's fine.
That may be, however, I'm not interested in pushing the envelope (or discussing) "unintentional emergent game-play" strategies.
Envoyé par Othniel
If you use shield-brother on the tank and make sure to keep your SB buffs up at appropriate moments, I really don't think you need the melee healing skills up top.
Any specific moments? Or just be mindful of keeping them going? Just wondering if there is an event for which one should plan.
There is no reason for the healer to come out from hiding. The purpose of the tank is simply to hold the head's attention. No damage is done to the head, so there is no reason for more than the tank to be in harm's way.
Envoyé par DuneBug
your sig says you have a captain alt so you ought to know that two of our heals come from melee skills. As well as the chance to crit to get more rally cries.
if you're referring to exploiting the head so it does no damage, that's a little different.
@lupini - melee range is too risky. Captains can heal a decently geared guardian. Wardens are tougher, but doable. Unfortunately it's a case of shield bro & WoC spam for pretty much the whole fight. I'd recommend traiting strength from within as you'll need to replenish the life you lose from WoC.
You cleared up your own question. There is no GOOD reason for a Captain to come out of hiding. Trading a possible 5k+ of AoE damage taken in exchange for the Valiant Strike HoT or a chance at a Rally Cry is not a good reason to come out.
Has nothing to do with "exploiting", it's just simple math. Between IHW, SotD, Time of Need, Shield-Brother skills, WoC, and a Revealing Mark, there are plenty of tools to use to keep the tank alive without risking your own death by entering his AoE.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Any specific moments? Or just be mindful of keeping them going? Just wondering if there is an event for which one should plan.
Thanks all for the responses!
His big attacks are pretty random, so keep the buffs up as often as possible. I would also suggest traiting Shield of the Dunedain (if you don't already) and maxing out the -duration legacy on an LI. Lowers the cooldown to 3.5 minutes, if I remember correctly, and it's one of the coolest skills in the game.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Heal the head-tank? What are y'all doing? Just have the tank stand in front of Draigoch, not doing anything. He doesn't need the head's aggro, just the positioning. The tank takes no damage if he's not the target of the head and the target of the head is not in range. If the tank somehow gets the head's aggro, just have someone (you) generate some healing threat and it'll come right off the tank. Thats phases 1&2 for sure, I'd have to double check with our warden for 3.
Worry about the distributed damage from the claws, and fire puddles. Its all aoe stuff, so I imagine a good cappy could handle it. Yes, from killing claws you do get a defeat response.
Dernière modification par Omen_Kaizer ; 24/02/2012 à 14h56.
a drinking bird and /follow could heal the tank for phase 1+2
i really struggle to main heal during phase 3 without a well-geared guard that knows the fight.. we are great for all the "jumping" around and stuff, but we dont have the big numbers.
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
Off topic? While I mean no personal insult, I disagree. This is an open forum and that is a viable strategy for the topic at hand--keeping the tank alive with your heals. Other people read this forum to gain insight while we discuss the topic that you started. Even if the discussion produces results you are not interested in.
But since I've already said what I wanted to say, here's my limited experience healing the head without that particular tank strategy.
Before I was made aware of the trick to keep the tank from taking damage in stages 1&2, I could heal a sturdy guardian in the tunnels with some challenge. As for my gear, I had four pieces of Draigoch gear, a smattering of skirm raid and riders rep gear, and the rest crafted theodreds. I avoided melee heals. I was not the main healer for phase 3.
It is possible to step in, place a mark on the head, then step out before you take damage. I don't know how much good that would do, though, if the head has a damage shield.
Dernière modification par Omen_Kaizer ; 24/02/2012 à 16h21.
Motif: overly harsh wording; mean *no* insult
A captain can easily heal up a good healer in Draigoch. when we 6 or 8 man it we even have the tank solo there sometimes
since the Rk has to heal the group down I ( the cappy ) or our LM stands with the tank and heals him up. u can also put shield bro on the tank so he has -15% incoming damage, u can put revealing mark on the head so the tank gets hp, use valiant strike quickly on head and u can buff the tank +20% incoming healing so it's really easy for a cappy to heal a tank @ Draigoch
Before I was made aware of the trick to keep the tank from taking damage in stages 1&2, I could heal a sturdy guardian in the tunnels with some challenge. As for my gear, I had four pieces of Draigoch gear, a smattering of skirm raid and riders rep gear, and the rest crafted theodreds. I avoided melee heals. I was not the main healer for phase 3.
It is possible to step in, place a mark on the head, then step out before you take damage. I don't know how much good that would do, though, if the head has a damage shield.
True, it's an open forum, and I can't control posts. However, thank you for bringing it back on-topic to my question of healing someone tanking the head, not various tanking strats.
Re: Unintended gameplay - A thread detailing how to perform the no damage tanking was deleted by moderators, I think clearing up whether this is allowed or not, if it was valid then surely it would of been left, as the orthanc thread featuring the other issue has been - Opinions may vary, but I would advise extreme caution using the tactic
on topic, it should indeed be very simple for a captain using rally cry and words of courage to heal a good tank on all three phases, difficulty will vary with how well equipped and played the tank is (It's usually my standard role in Draigoch raids)
Edit: Unsure how useful revealing mark will be, he has very high mitigation around his head and I think typically the tank will be hitting for single figure numbers and the 15/20% return on this is no use at all
Dernière modification par Sebbi ; 26/02/2012 à 13h52.
4) Any other tips for pulling off this task successfully?
Have your tank learn the trick for not taking any damage during the tunnel phases.
...and then make sure you have another tank in reserve for the next run for when your current tank has gotten a sanction because you asked him to exploit the game for you.
This is clearly an exploit and the moderators have been deleting (and not just locking) any thread describing in detail how to actually do this. These where threads without any vitriol that might otherwise have caused the deleting and total erasing of those threads.
I cannot figure how anyone can delude themselves that it is intended gameplay to tank a raid boss without taking damage? And if you consider it intended gameplay to not take damage, well why not have a rune-keeper tank Draigoch then..? That suggestion is as solid an argument you will find for something being an exploit in essence using a strategy that would allow a runekeeper to tank a raid boss.
I really would not advice anyone to use this approach to Draigoch.
Back on topic, captains - and loremasters by the way - are quite fine healers for the main Draigoch tank. You will actually not have to heal the tank for very long stretches, as you get a breather each time Draigoch falls to the ground. In most situations you will probably only have to heal the tank through 1-2 heads to heads with Draigoch, before you get the resting period, during which you can get the tank back to maximum. Words of Courage will be enough for most the healing and you can always close the gap with Shield-Brother or Song-Brother if the Words of Courage are falling short. You will get some defeat events from the front claws but won't be depending much on the Rallying Cry, because of the breaks when the rest of the raid is on the body.
Some groups might have the Main Tank and his/her healer participate on the Body downstairs when Draigoch is grounded; that gives you less of a break to heal up the tank, but in those cases you can always ask the healer(s) with the main raid to toss the main tank a heal or two each time you are downstairs, so as to have the tank at max. morale for the next period on the head. Your Words of Courage need not keep him at full health as long as they are just enough to keep him alive during one tanking phase.
Finally, having a captain heal the main tank has the benefit that the healer can more easily survive if misstepping into the large AoE range of the Head or if being a bit slow scuttling out of the fire. And lastly, if your tank misses the telltale signs on Draigoch's movement in the 2nd Phase, then a captain can always take his place and stave off a Cave In while the main tank finds his way round to the new position of the Head.
...and then make sure you have another tank in reserve for the next run for when your current tank has gotten a sanction because you asked him to exploit the game for you.
This is clearly an exploit and the moderators have been deleting (and not just locking) any thread describing in detail how to actually do this. These where threads without any vitriol that might otherwise have caused the deleting and total erasing of those threads.
I cannot figure how anyone can delude themselves that it is intended gameplay to tank a raid boss without taking damage? And if you consider it intended gameplay to not take damage, well why not have a rune-keeper tank Draigoch then..? That suggestion is as solid an argument you will find for something being an exploit in essence using a strategy that would allow a runekeeper to tank a raid boss.
I really would not advice anyone to use this approach to Draigoch.
Here, I will dramatize it for you:
Draigoch: "There you are [imposing metal bound hobbit, dwarf, elf, man or hyperactive shield waving spear pointing elf man or hobbit]. I would like to bite you"
Hobbit sings extremely annoying song, or Champion removes one scaly armored toe.
Draigoch: "Oh just a minute. My attention is now averted."
At this point Draigoch is consumed with blindly kicking the terrible thing it can't see.
Imposing metal bound hobbit, dwarf, elf, man or hyperactive shield waving spear pointing elf man or hobbit: "Umm, I know you can see me. Make with the biting"
Draigoch: "Puny rat, I will bite you so good...in a minute. For ages I have sat on this uncomfortable pile of Gold in wonderful silence whilst you haven't even been imagined into consciousness. I will take care of your insignificance just as soon as I eliminate that terrible racket!"
Hobbit Minstrel: "Hey [Imposing metal bound hobbit, dwarf, elf, man or hyperactive shield waving spear pointing elf man or hobbit], how's it going up there?"
Imposing metal bound hobbit, dwarf, elf, man or hyperactive shield waving spear pointing elf man or hobbit: "Umm, keep doing what you're doing. I guess it's working...?"
Draigoch: "Ow, my feet! Die in a fire, useless [Imposing metal bound hobbit, dwarf, elf, man or hyperactive shield waving spear pointing elf man or hobbit]!"
Whether it was originally intended or not, there is no reason to believe that a sentient being wouldn't be more consumed with the extreme pain being caused to its appendages than the tiny pin pricks being inflicted upon it's heavily armored face. What's more, the difficult portions of the fight are not being bypassed. You still need to move properly, complete CJs and coordinate your damage.
Dernière modification par RtrnofdMax ; 27/02/2012 à 16h42.
What's more, the difficult portions of the fight are not being bypassed. You still need to move properly, complete CJs and coordinate your damage.
That is a fine list of more or less salient justifications for why you chose to approach the fight this way. However that line of arguing your case is a bit misconcieved because whether you find it justified or not does not detract from the fact that this is seen as an exploit by Turbine - and by a lot of players - and if you do something in the game that the gamemasters considers exploiting you risk getting a ban.
The same goes for anyone taking your advice on exploiting the game, regardless of whether you feel you can justify it or not and there is a difference between your personal choice to exploit and to advice strangers to do it without due warning. We all play the game with different goals and I actually don't mind other players exploiting as long as they don't do it in my raid group (which would earn them a farewell) and as long as exploiters don't encourage others to do the same under the pretext that it is a legit strategy.
As an additional note, if your argument is that is not a difficult part of the fight, why then cheat on it in the first place? The entire Draigoch raid is easy once the FMs have been decrypted. I personally find all exploiting wrong, but I am particularly mindbuggled when people argue in favour on cheating on things exactly because they are easy!
People don't use a healer at the head, becuase you don't need it and that spot can be used for a dps. More dps means a faster run and why would you want to spend more time in Derpgoch than you have to? It's already a 30min snorefest of a raid.
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Captain Svanhvit ~ Burglar Svantje
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