It's a great idea to redesign a class just to fit better in a specific Boss fight mechanics.
The next could be to improve champion ranged DPS because Hunts are prefered in Shadow.
Who said anything about redesigning a class to fit specific boss mechanics? My point is only that the "great advantage" that hunters have often comes to moot.
Do you all really think Hunters are not at #1 spot of single target dps. Are you really think we are not good in pve? Are you really thinking that good tanks don't hold threat when we go all out?
If you answer all this questens with yes, what game you are playing? If not, why you whine. Hunters are fine in PVE. For pvp maybe some changes are needed.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
Do you all really think Hunters are not at #1 spot of single target dps. Are you really think we are not good in pve? Are you really thinking that good tanks don't hold threat when we go all out?
If you answer all this questens with yes, what game you are playing? If not, why you whine. Hunters are fine in PVE. For pvp maybe some changes are needed.
I believe Hunters are at #1 in terms of single target dps... in the kiddie pool. PvE, we're... okay. Threat wise, don't really see any good tanks! PvP, we lack survivability.
I'm playing LOTRO (for now, ha-ha! Especially if things stay as is.), thanks very much. Not everyone's main interest is raiding for the 'best' and 'current' gear actually though, just so you know. A lot of people think they should be able to do fine without a first age weapon and full set of 'hard-earned raid gear'.
Lol, I don't even care to redownload the whole client to fix the one corrupted file.
Who said anything about redesigning a class to fit specific boss mechanics? My point is only that the "great advantage" that hunters have often comes to moot.
So you want another advantage to hunts because being ranged advantage sometimes comes to moot.
Hunters can wield not one but two swords and a bow.
And you have Legolas.
We really could do without the melee, really. They're hardly better than chopsticks. Good for a chopstick in the eye, well... once... but then I fail to see any use at melee besides using ranged attacks, really. The most use I've found from RoI was the scourging blow + barbed arrow hat trick.
Also, Legolas wouldn't play our class. He'd probably roll a blackarrow.
Lol, I don't even care to redownload the whole client to fix the one corrupted file.
I believe Hunters are at #1 in terms of single target dps... in the kiddie pool. PvE, we're... okay. Threat wise, don't really see any good tanks! PvP, we lack survivability.
I'm playing LOTRO (for now, ha-ha! Especially if things stay as is.), thanks very much. Not everyone's main interest is raiding for the 'best' and 'current' gear actually though, just so you know. A lot of people think they should be able to do fine without a first age weapon and full set of 'hard-earned raid gear'.
You do same with bad gear. BUT you must compare it to other classes with bad gear. You can not compare a good equiped champion with a bad equiped hunter and say "Hey look at him, he out dps me easily". If you don't raid T2 you don't need that much dps. Crafting gear will let be okay for all what you do.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
You do same with bad gear. BUT you must compare it to other classes with bad gear. You can not compare a good equiped champion with a bad equiped hunter and say "Hey look at him, he out dps me easily". If you don't raid T2 you don't need that much dps. Crafting gear will let be okay for all what you do.
Looks like your only interest is raiding. Have you ever tried versus a champion, burglar, minstrel, lore-master both with sucky gear? The difference is clear. Just because I haven't gotten a Worn Symbol of the Elder King doesn't mean I lack any skill, it means I've had le fails with Lootboxes and rolls. It doesn't equate to a good player.
Also, you should try fighting a burglar some time with a first age weapon. It isn't pretty.
Lol, I don't even care to redownload the whole client to fix the one corrupted file.
You are really care about spar other classes? When i loose versus a minstrel in spar fight, the hunter needs be buffed? To be honest, spars a just for fun, and don't mean to be balanced or something else. And yes my focus is on Raiding. That the endgame of lotro and i play it. I played pvmp months/years ago but the situation on our server is bad and i don't care anymore about pvmp.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
That's true, but your survivability is inversely proportional to your capability of threeshoot a creep.
Maybe you want to survive like guardians, champs or minstrels, but this wouldn't be right. First two are heavy and melee (and OP), and minstrels are God on Earth.
And by the way, how many creeps you think you should be able to kill before dying to consider your survivability appropiate?
And about spars... If you want to feel good try sparring runekeepers.
Last edited by TiNdA-LoS; Feb 28 2012 at 09:31 AM.
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
If you can't kill a creep with your hunt nowadays, things only will get worse for you since now.
Stealth, BH, Focus, BA, IPS,IPS,focus pot, IPS,IPS,IPS and creep is dead.
You listed a step by step guide that isn't really usable within combat. For those who don't know how to chain skills correctly, it might be useful. We aren't burglars though! We can't pop back into stealth mid combat.
Also, would you clarify your first sentence? Worse? We've had 2x nerfs while I've been on LOTRO. There have been more in the past. I don't expect it to get worse for just me. I anticipate it with glee.
Lol, I don't even care to redownload the whole client to fix the one corrupted file.
We are horribly off topic. The point is that hunters are probably not the highest ST DPS class, champs probably are.
We're challenged by champs/burglars(a support class?) and BOTH have much better survivability and a way to drop REAL threat and add threat to the tank. Furthermore, champs and burgs both add DPS to the raid, burgs are self explanatory and champs have armor rend. We have to have a complete armor set or a crafted bow to help anyone else.
The fact of the matter is that our one and only benefit is that we are ranged, which we share with RKs, who aren't really in the discussion anymore (though they should be, they aren't that far off). There will be mechanics that will make ranged desired (Shadow) but that isn't because we're top ST DPS, which we should be because we bring NOTHING else to the fight besides a measly 15s fear that gets adapted to anyway. Meanwhile, MOST boss mechanics allow for melees and ranged to be on even footing (lightning, acid, fire frost, kinda saruman).
I understand that it's a different game but WoW understands how buffs effect class utility. A combat rogue brings zero buffs to the raid, but are compensated by being the highest DPS class. Often a ###### geared rogue can beat very well geared other classes who do give buffs thus making people desire that class in a raid.
Why don't LOTRO devs see the necessity of giving a one trick pony the best trick in the room?
(And no, devs, a threat down book doesn't constitute a real threat drop, its hardly even measurable.)
It's a great idea to redesign a class just to fit better in a specific Boss fight mechanics.
The next could be to improve champion ranged DPS because Hunts are prefered in Shadow.
Lol. So, hunters are better than champs/burgs for ONE out of the 5 raid wings. The other 4 it's not a competition unless you're geared out with gear that comes from those raid wings themselves. (bit ironic, don't you think)
Originally Posted by Burio
Do you all really think Hunters are not at #1 spot of single target dps. Are you really think we are not good in pve? Are you really thinking that good tanks don't hold threat when we go all out?
Yes, I do think that. As I've said so often before, tanks don't have enough to cope with a hunter's burst dps, which is usually what pulls the boss/mob for a few seconds and often allows the hunter to be 2 shotted if healers aren't constantly on top of the ball. Champs have a instant threat drop, as well as better survivability allowing them to survive those 2 shots. Burglars won't even have the problem at all if they're smart and using provoke for the tank.
Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS
So you want another advantage to hunts because being ranged advantage sometimes comes to moot.
I don't see your point.
Hunters can wield not one but two swords and a bow.
And you have Legolas.
Yes. Our only "advantage" isn't an advantage most of the time (as said before, 1 out of 5 raid wings need ranged dps, and even then you could possibly still take an rk) Your point about melee hardly even warrants a response.
Originally Posted by Burio
You do same with bad gear. BUT you must compare it to other classes with bad gear. You can not compare a good equiped champion with a bad equiped hunter and say "Hey look at him, he out dps me easily". If you don't raid T2 you don't need that much dps. Crafting gear will let be okay for all what you do.
As said before, if all we bring to the table is dps, our spot in the raid will be traded for other classes. Why? Because we don't have that uber first-ager or t2 jewelry yet, because we don't have anything to offer for t2 orthanc unless we already have the jewelry/FA from it. La dee dee da, around in circles we go. While other dps classes provide off-tanking (champs), off-healing + tact mit buffs (rks), and debuffs + extra dps all-around (burgs). Our slight advantage on ST dps without a first-age isn't enough to make a difference, and it isn't enough to get us that FA in the first place. Kins wind up with having to carry hunters along to get their FAs for them, and THEN the hunter can actually give a significant contribution to the group.
Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS
If you can't kill a creep with your hunt nowadays, things only will get worse for you since now.
you're only addressing things in light of a narrow, very narrow viewpoint. You expect every PvP fight to start with the hunter in stealth, all CDs up, ready to bust a cap. That's, what, 10% of the time? Then that warg you just farmed for a total of 2 mins goes and whines to the 4 other freavers, who come and track you about 4 times before they realize you're on the mini-map, and you kill a couple of them before you go down. Then it's the warg who's farming you as you ride back from the rez circle. Little exaggeration, but your "ideal skill rotation" isn't applicable very often.
*Switch to happy face*.
Hunters need something else to offer the group besides just ST ranged dps. Ranged gets cut from the argument most times, and our ST dps is quite easily challengeable by the right group make-up. We need to either be absolute king-of-the-hill dpsers or offer more CC without crippling dps, in which case we'll just be ranged burgs without the oh ####! skills.
Yes, I do think that. As I've said so often before, tanks don't have enough to cope with a hunter's burst dps, which is usually what pulls the boss/mob for a few seconds and often allows the hunter to be 2 shotted if healers aren't constantly on top of the ball. Champs have a instant threat drop, as well as better survivability allowing them to survive those 2 shots. Burglars won't even have the problem at all if they're smart and using provoke for the tank.
You are reffering to ebbing ire? Why you call it instant? you need fervour to do this, target the tank and then use this skill. this is far from instant. Beneath Notice is a instant threat drop, and enough for situation you mention. A Burglar that is traiting for provoke and use it's all the time loose dps. And it only adds 250 dps in thread to the tank (with trait and use on cd).
Originally Posted by Bond007
As said before, if all we bring to the table is dps, our spot in the raid will be traded for other classes. Why? Because we don't have that uber first-ager or t2 jewelry yet, because we don't have anything to offer for t2 orthanc unless we already have the jewelry/FA from it. La dee dee da, around in circles we go. While other dps classes provide off-tanking (champs), off-healing + tact mit buffs (rks), and debuffs + extra dps all-around (burgs). Our slight advantage on ST dps without a first-age isn't enough to make a difference, and it isn't enough to get us that FA in the first place. Kins wind up with having to carry hunters along to get their FAs for them, and THEN the hunter can actually give a significant contribution to the group.
You don't need first ages to compete in T2 Orthanc, you get them from there and it makes it easier, but you don't need it. Second point you say a hunter need gear to be usefull but reffering to a Tank that can offtank? In normal dps gear a champ will get two shottet for most mobs too. If you want succesful tank things in ToO you need tank gear. As you see.. a champ brings his dps, that is much gear depended. Like Hunters are.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
You listed a step by step guide that isn't really usable within combat. For those who don't know how to chain skills correctly, it might be useful. We aren't burglars though! We can't pop back into stealth mid combat.
Lol, I'm talking about starting the combat in stealth. I'm not best hunter on earth but I have a lvl 75 raidgeared one. Not my main, but I can do some dps on him.
Originally Posted by Bond007
Little exaggeration, but your "ideal skill rotation" isn't applicable very often.
In my server you can see hunters doing this 24/24. Camping GYs, on bridges in typical OC farm...
Of course, if you are atacked by a warg, you better are 5B traited, IF and high on focus. You can fear and start dpsing and kiting.
Two wargs? Yep, you are prob dead, but if they are real greenies you still have a chance.
Originally Posted by Bond007
*Switch to happy face*.
Hunters need something else to offer the group besides just ST ranged dps. Ranged gets cut from the argument most times, and our ST dps is quite easily challengeable by the right group make-up. We need to either be absolute king-of-the-hill dpsers or offer more CC without crippling dps, in which case we'll just be ranged burgs without the oh ####! skills.
You can offer some CC for pulls, and very high single target dps, but maybe some buff to the fellow will be appreciated.
About this, I would like to see a yellow path buff oriented.
Hunts are rangers, they track, so grouping with them should make his fellows to hit harder and with more accuracy.
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
Who said anything about redesigning a class to fit specific boss mechanics? My point is only that the "great advantage" that hunters have often comes to moot.
Hunter advantages include: Range, relative lack of positioning requirements (as well as ways to mitigate positioning disadvantages), dominant burst cooldowns, competitive AoE damage, and the ability to change damage types on the fly. In short, they provide the most flexible DPS in the game.
Far more than "just a ranged advantage".
Originally Posted by Bond007
What do hunters have? A stance that inherently decreases damage with threat, and a 5 min cd (3 with legacy) that's not even a threat dump, it's a 10 second, temporary, "fake" threat loss. The tank might think he has aggro once again while BN is still up, but once BN pops off and threat returns to previous level, the hunter may very well rip it right back BN needs to vaporize that 60% threat, not just mask it for 10 sec
You seem to have forgotten quick shot, about 3 LIs (and all minor too) and the book.
Either way, the melee classes have hard aggro drops (ebb, hips, fighting withdrawal), while the ranged classes have inherent threat modifiers. Notice a pattern here?
Originally Posted by Fin.
I think the main point from the video is that taking 5 "support" classes will produce more raid dps then taking 1-2 "support classes" and 3-4 "dps" classes.
Yet... no one has been able to properly demonstrate that, and there's even evidence to the contrary in this thread. That, and you're talking about a support class with little ranged and AoE, and a positional requirement.
Originally Posted by Thraxz1982
Why bring two champs instead of even one hunter?
Why was a tank capable of keeping aggro against 7 DPS spots averaging ~2200 DPS each. one of which was proven at 2700+? (Yes, I know what an aggro leech is.)
Technically, between the "At the ready" trait and the -ebbing cd LI, the champs COULD HAVE ebbed 5 times in the 100 seconds that it took to down the boss. I doubt they did, since it costs 4 fervor per ebb, but the point is this: between ebb and warden leaches, the champs were likely *literally* at zero threat at points in the fight, and the warden *literally* had the threat of 3.
Originally Posted by Thraxz1982
Why was a burg that's capable of CC such as this WHILE doing 2700 DPS? Is that even conceivable of a hunter in such a group?
What about RoT?
Last edited by scrubmonkey; Feb 28 2012 at 01:06 PM.
See this video...
....note the group make up...
...watch what happens....
...watch it again...
.../deletes hunter
Ask yourselves these questions....
Why bring two champs instead of even one hunter?
Why was a tank capable of keeping aggro against 7 DPS spots averaging ~2200 DPS each. one of which was proven at 2700+? (Yes, I know what an aggro leech is.)
Why was a burg that's capable of CC such as this WHILE doing 2700 DPS? Is that even conceivable of a hunter in such a group?
P.S. Amazing accomplishment to the group that did it, thank you for the education and awesome video.
To the above poster. We did this fight in 3 attempts after watching the video. We used 2 hunters, and a Guard to tank. I did over 3,000 DPS. 3-4 Burgs. One mini. A burglar or champion could never match my DPS. The only reason I wasn't 4,000 was due to endurance and alternating quickshots until the first oathies. Then at the end running out of power due to using threat book.
Here is a sloppy third attempt where I frapsed at the end on a different week:
In my server you can see hunters doing this 24/24. Camping GYs, on bridges in typical OC farm...
Of course, if you are atacked by a warg, you better are 5B traited, IF and high on focus. You can fear and start dpsing and kiting. Two wargs? Yep, you are prob dead, but if they are real greenies you still have a chance.
Heh, that's just ganking. Are moors supposed to be a 10v1 or boom! I popped out of stealth with all the buffs I could hit, you're dead, zone? And well, yeah, I'd say 2 greenies of any class and I'd be confident to take them on 2v1, but, I mean, that's experience, not class related.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
Hunter advantages include: Range, relative lack of positioning requirements (as well as ways to mitigate positioning disadvantages)
What fight requires ranged positioning requirements? I remember BG twins as a boss that hurt the most if you didn't have a ranged dps, but there's no fight like that in orthanc. Ranged dps' benefit to the group as a whole has dropped quite a bit recently.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
, dominant burst cooldowns,
BH is a 5 min cd, and the power cost does kinda cut into it a bit (no, i'm not QQing about having to use a pot, just letting you know that even with cool burn traited, BH still cuts into power instead of helping it. There was a thread about this earlier) But yes, overall, BH is useful, and hunters do have the best burst dps in the game right now imo
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
competitive AoE damage,
Okay.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
and the ability to change damage types on the fly.
I don't see your point here. Since when has fire/light damage type mattered on a boss? Usually they have same mitigation for both.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
You seem to have forgotten quick shot, about 3 LIs (and all minor too) and the book.
Ah yes, the good ol' book and LIs. I was ignoring QS because you have to be in endurance, which cuts dps, and if you crit, you're still generating more threat than is reduced. Using endurance is a joke. Same goes for the LIs, which cut into the much more valuable dps legacies. I actually usually use the book, but would like to see an actual stat on it, not a general statement of "greatly reduces your threat." -_- If we have a inherent threat modifier that doesn't cut our dps below that of a champ/burg, please show it to me.
@Yelk ./bow. Props to your tank too! I'm glad a burg can't match your dps, but it's not that that worries me, it's that small margin they only have to close, even as a support class. 400 or so more dps isn't too much of a difference -- esp seeing that in the burg's vid, he doesn't have the direct blade-brother buff, which would push dps further.
Hunter advantages include: Range, relative lack of positioning requirements (as well as ways to mitigate positioning disadvantages), dominant burst cooldowns, competitive AoE damage, and the ability to change damage types on the fly. In short, they provide the most flexible DPS in the game.
Far more than "just a ranged advantage".
How often do you use large-area AoE in Orthanc (or OD)? Champ AoE is directional and limited area, ours is not at all.
Damage types are useless, most raids require lots of running around anyway due to puddles.
You seem to have forgotten quick shot, about 3 LIs (and all minor too) and the book.
LIs are not worth it (compared to Barbed bleed, BH leg). Book is cute but really expensive because you lose the -12% power cost
Either way, the melee classes have hard aggro drops (ebb, hips, fighting withdrawal), while the ranged classes have inherent threat modifiers. Notice a pattern here?
even with threat book i can still pull aggro off quite a few tanks unless I'm careful, and my gear isn't even halfway decent yet. Again, the inherent modifier comes at the expense of other much more useful things, whereas the other classes all have a skill for aggro dropping, making it much less of a tradeoff. Notice a pattern here?
Yet... no one has been able to properly demonstrate that, and there's even evidence to the contrary in this thread. That, and you're talking about a support class with little ranged and AoE, and a positional requirement.
I am curious. Have you ever seriously played a hunter?
What about RoT?
3mins cd. Yes, there are situations in which RoT is handy, but they are few and far between, and the cd is way too long for it to be usable in raids or anything.
In my personal opinion hunter dps does not need to be buffed up, sure champ, rk, burglar and hunter have similar dps, we are at a stage where most of the classes can do dps, fine I accept that, and yes 40 meters is an advantage in some situations and very helpful in many combats.
BUT we NEED something else, the class is booooooring right now
Is it going to be cc?, fine, make it work!!! DS should not have induction, reduced resist greatly and a permanent daze CAN NOT be the cap stone of a trait line, root in area, again CAN NOT be a legendary, bards arrow, same song, trap mechanics are not a reliable form of cc in many instances and boss fights, give us a ranged interrupt in yellow trait line, dazing blow should last longer... we should be as reliable as other cc classes, since they can dish out similar dps.
or forget about the cc and make it a buffing/debuffing traitline, something that supports and helps the rest of the raid, while maintaning a respectable dps, same as other classes as burgs or champs.
or give us a mele trait line, something that makes the class play completely different, but wait. I remembered last time that a change like this was suggested by ZC rivers of tears flowed in these same forums...
Personally I just want a different way to play the char that I have been playing for 3 years, but we can keep crying that a champ parsed 1500 dps single target and my hunter only 1450 and that is inconceivable cause you know, hunters are top tier single target dps... ains
or give us a mele trait line, something that makes the class play completely different, but wait. I remembered last time that a change like this was suggested by ZC rivers of tears flowed in these same forums...
AFAIK those rivers of tears flowed because ZC suggested turning our Blue trait line into a melee one... That wasn't so much because we don't want to melee, but more that some of us like the Blue line a lot for ranged damage. And it would going from 2 usable and 1 semi-useless traitline to 1 usable and 2 semi-useless lines (because even a melee line would be rather situational)...
If you want to turn the Yellow line into melee, be my guest! It might even improve...
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
See this video...
....note the group make up...
...watch what happens....
...watch it again...
.../deletes hunter
Ask yourselves these questions....
Why bring two champs instead of even one hunter?
Why was a tank capable of keeping aggro against 7 DPS spots averaging ~2200 DPS each. one of which was proven at 2700+? (Yes, I know what an aggro leech is.)
Why was a burg that's capable of CC such as this WHILE doing 2700 DPS? Is that even conceivable of a hunter in such a group?
P.S. Amazing accomplishment to the group that did it, thank you for the education and awesome video.
Yeah I'm going to delete my hunter lol. In a burst DPS situation like that when to arms is active and burg marks and such I've hit a 10,000 non crit hit in raids. I don't know how geared your hunter is, but maybe have some faith in it before deleting.
Yelk ~ DieHard ~ The Warlord - Shock and Awe. You will fear me.
You seem to have forgotten quick shot, about 3 LIs (and all minor too) and the book.
Either way, the melee classes have hard aggro drops (ebb, hips, fighting withdrawal), while the ranged classes have inherent threat modifiers. Notice a pattern here?
First our two LI's to reduce threat are split into focus and induction. No other calss has to split their dps into two "halves" when dealing with threat, power and dps. The "minors" use two slots regardless and are set up as tier reductions... so far many hunters have tried to puzzle out what a tier is in threat mitagation and as of yet no one has come up with a reliable estimate. Do they reduce threat, sure but by all the tests I have tried and heard about they are minimal at best. Hunters are stuck slotting doubles of each LI while other classes are not hampered by this problem.
Now to educate you on endurace quick shot... notice endurance is stated because you must be in endurance to see the benefit of this LI. The quick shot is a threat neutral... let me state that again... it doesn't add to threat, but it does not reduce it either, shot. Now the problem with this is that you can still crit and dev the shot. If you do this you will add spike aggro bascially rendering it more or less useless if the tank does nothing to add to his aggro. This LI makes its claim based on two factors, the shot uses the endurance stance's lower dps and gives you a spammable shot that will not gain aggro unless you crit or dev it. By stepping down to our threat stance ( lower dps ) and giving you a way to at least take some shots at the big baddie it works to hold your aggro prettty much still. It is in no way a threat reducer.
The book is our best threat reducer, but again, how much we cannot pinpoint exact numbers because of the mysterious formula they use to quantify threat. This also makes us more power hungry because at 12% power reduction is quite significant for hunters these days running heavy blue with the faron set.
RKs... ranged, and able to threat drop and mitagate so your argument doesn't hold water. Also the RK can drop a heal or two to keep them up until the minnies can react. Hunters can.. er.. wait 4 seconds while I start my 2k heal if I gave up a legendary slot to have it ready to go. I can use Strength of Earth that will.. no will be dead before I get two pitiful ticks off the heal. Well I can hit my parry skill and hope for a reactive that can heal me.... emmmm back to the pitiful thing again. Oh hell pop the health pot and hope the minnie has lightning reflexes. There is no pattern... only hunters who must throttle back our dps ( our only major benefit to groups ) because we do not have an aggro drop or get pummled by the big ugly and beg for a in combat rez.
Hmmmmm.... dps kings in name only because we cannot go all out without pulling aggro. If this is our greatest gift to raids then take the choke off my dps please. This is why many burgs and champs can compete with us in dps. If hunters had a reliable dps transfer to a tank like our close cousins we would probably post numbers that show a consistant dps lead on the other classes. Because we do not have this kind of skill we must hold back. If we do pull aggro we are likely going to get two or even one shotted. Hunter armour and mits took a big hit with ROI(not as badly as wardens) and now that we must stack heavy in agi there isn't much room for high morale jewelery and armour sets out there right now. I don't see many burgs or champs saying.. well I will only auto attack for the frist 20 seconds so I can make sure the tank has a good enough lock on the target do you? As a hunter you hear this all the time.... PEW PEW hold off for a bit before unleashing your damage skills... we don't want to waste a rez on you.
Last edited by Tinluen; Feb 29 2012 at 07:51 PM.
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
As a hunter you hear this all the time.... PEW PEW hold off for a bit before unleashing your damage skills... we don't want to waste a rez on you.
You forgot to mention this also nullifies our imp focus buff which can only be used before a fight, not 10 seconds in. Another point that effectively kills the "ZOMGAHUNTAR3SHOTTEDME" moors argument. Imp focus loses its capabilities in raids. Just needed to point that out. (But, then again, maybe I shouldn't bring PvP talk to a PvE thread? Feel free to ignore it, I just had to get that out there)
Hmmmmm.... dps kings in name only because we cannot go all out without pulling aggro. If this is our greatest gift to raids then take the choke off my dps please.
This kills our dps more than anything else in the game.
This arguing about threat makes me angry, are you really all play with that bad tanks?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
From a Burglar's point of view; It's a pet peeve of burgs, that even with such evidence, there are many that still think bringing another hunter or champ is necessarily a DPS improvement over a burg. I don't think that stacking a lot of burgs actually happens much though, at least on my server. A couple reasons for this are; There still aren't that many of us in relation to straight DPS classes like hunters and champs. And people really like playing their classes, including many hunters and champs. So when a raid forms or is planned, it's often not just WHAT you have available, but often WHO, as well.
If burg stacking to beat content like T2 Orthanc became more popular, I suspect Turbine will nerf the additive nature of RW and CD. This could be done simply by tweaking the diminishing returns calculations to the point where at burg #3, you'd be at least equal in DPS to adding another hunter or champ, and at burg #4, it would make clear sense to bring the hunter or champ over the burg. Will they do this? We'll see.
One complaint that I haven't seen in this thread is "Why the love for Melee from Ballad of War?" This is a powerful minstrel buff, that can give 20% boost to melee DPS, but only 10% to ranged and tactical. Making it a straight across the board 15% or so would help out hunters over champs, at least.
From a hunter point of view (and it was my main for years) I do think that they need to take a hard look at hunter threat mechanics and tools. I agree that BC should wipe some threat completely, not just temporarily. Perhaps take out the damage penalty to running in endurance at the expense of, say... greater power costs or an induction or focus penalty. Obviously you'd have to call the stance something entirely new. Maybe they could give the hunter a collective ranged buff like "Coordinated Attack" - "When this is active on the target, ranged DPS (from all sources) is increased by 10% and ranged crit chance is increased by 4%." And have this mark stack from multiple hunters.
That said, hunters as a class are still WAY over-represented on most most servers. I find myself wondering if turbine is keen on making the class even more popular.
And for now, and it could just be where my own head is at; my gut feeling is when all other factors are equal (such as player skill and social reasons) there really aren't a lot of situations where I'd pick a hunter over a champ in a PvE fellowship or raid, and certainly wouldn't over a Burg. This is assuming that choice was there to make in the first place, however. And I'm well aware that I may be biased in this thinking.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
This arguing about threat makes me angry, are you really all play with that bad tanks?
I have grouped with some of the best and some of the worst tanks on my server and here are the conclusions I've reached. It's been my experience that you need basically the top 1% of tanks to hold solid aggro over the top 50% of hunters if they go all out, and that is a pretty huge discrepancy. I have grouped with a handful of tanks who I'll admit are nearly impossible to pull aggro off of in almost any circumstance...but with 99% of them if I or other hunters in my group go full out on a boss while it's still like over ~60% morale, aggro will more than likely be pulled. Most of these tanks aren't poorly geared or bad players, it's just hard for them to keep up with the threat generation in longer-duration fights (they have to basically be doing nothing but aggro skills the entire fight and even then it's not a given that they can keep up, plus we all know tanks usually have more to deal with than simply keeping aggro off the hunters....particularly with wardens who need all the self heals/defensive buffs). I've been talking to a few tanks/hunters about this and that's the conclusion I've come to. So, while people grouping with those 2-3 tanks on their server who are totally decked out and can hold crazy amounts of aggro, they may never notice any issues at all. But for the vast majority of us, it is my opinion that aggro and threat management is a big problem that really deserves to be looked at.
Last edited by Sephollos; Mar 01 2012 at 03:03 AM.
From a Burglar's point of view; It's a pet peeve of burgs, that even with such evidence, there are many that still think bringing another hunter or champ is necessarily a DPS improvement over a burg.
People are oldfashioned... if they want more DPS, they bring a DPS class whether they do more DPS or not. I remember that during our pitiful DPS days of Lothlorien people were often totally surprised when our LM would pull aggro from the Hunters :P.
Originally Posted by Irenmund
One complaint that I haven't seen in this thread is "Why the love for Melee from Ballad of War?" This is a powerful minstrel buff, that can give 20% boost to melee DPS, but only 10% to ranged and tactical. Making it a straight across the board 15% or so would help out hunters over champs, at least.
Anthem of War is scheduled for an 'adjustment'. Going to be +5/+5/+5% without legacies (with 3 legacies up to 10%).
Originally Posted by Irenmund
Perhaps take out the damage penalty to running in endurance at the expense of, say... greater power costs or an induction or focus penalty.
There's no damage penalty is there? It's just the lack of a damage bonus... But in order to be that top-of-the-line DPS class we need the damage bonus from our other stances, otherwise we're like a Champ doing DPS in Glory. In a way Strength and Precision are just 'too good'.
Last edited by Ingaras; Mar 01 2012 at 06:21 AM.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
And for that numbers... i can pull out nearly 1,9k dps on bukot over 5 minutes with 1 burg in group, [...] but no class will out dps a good and well geared hunter.
Sorry for necroing this statement, but I'm still very much on the fence about whether that statement of yours really holds true. I would still say that Champs can at least equal Hunters if not possibly out dps them.
Originally Posted by Burio
that the parses, both were with same group. First parse boss got a -10% inc dmg buff cause of light reach him...
Yesterday I was trying Shadow T2 CM with my kin for the first time (not really the first try for my kin, but I suffered from an Internet outage at home for about 4 weeks, so I was there the first time) and I was achieving similar numbers to the ones from your parses (something around 1,840 DPS, I can upload a ss if needed), even with the current lag spikes after U6. We also went with only 1 Burg and I wasn't even the Captain's Blade Brother. We had at least 1 Light reach the boss (not sure if it wasn't even 2) and I stood away from the boss for quite some time (I once missed to move fast enough, so I was standing in choking fumes), before that my DPS was above 2,100. Before saying it's not comparable due to better gear, I don't have any piece of the new jewellery set, I'm not done with all of my traits yet, and I also don't have any of the new relics - I basically went in there with the exact same equip as pre Update 6. My conclusion is that Champs can at least match Hunters in terms of DPS. Given the fact that I have a quite a lot to improve on my equip, I was not blade brothered, the whole encounter was still not running smooth (as we are still working on beating CM) and we were experiencing severe lag spikes (which will hurt DPS for sure), I would say there is loads of room to improve on my DPS numbers in this encounter.
One thing to note: My DPS has definitely taken a nosedive since U6 went live, as Champs can no longer benefit from the OD set's Auto-Atack buff. So if my parse was taken before U6, my numbers would most likely have been significantly higher.
Edit: I also forgot to mention, that pre Update 6 Ballad of War would have done more for melee DPS than it does now. Another fact that makes me guess, that if I was to do that parse pre Update 6, my numbers would have been higher, therefore a Champion can out dps a good and well geared hunter. (at least he could pre Update 6, I will have to wait and see how things turn out after getting my toon up to date and how much of an impact the nerfed/balanced Ballad of War and the fixed OD set bonus have)
Just a note here, regarding raids. Whenever there's a bossroom with adds, or add pulls, we usually CAN go all out dps, even on the boss, since we'll have to break off the boss to dps the adds at times. This gives the tank enough time to gain a lot of aggro before we get back to it. This includes most raid bosses at l75, so (except that we have to let the tank actually grab the aggro from the start) we have the opprotunity to Max DPS a lot these days. This is also why It's so boring to play a hunter at bosses like Lightning boss, and Durin's Bane in OD.
European l75 Hunter
Roulette l75 Runekeeper
Fantomet l67 Guardian
2nd in Command in Knights of the White Tree
you know why burgs are there now. If you look at my date i think i was correct. But the new pvp armour is just op and the effect on pve was just didn't notice by the devs.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
Champion - hunter
We will see when you got a proper run.
But don't forget hunters in this encounter are often on targets without any debuffs especially without Telling Mark, reaveal weakness and counter defence, that hurts much. Same goes for lights, they have a high Avoidance rate.
I'm sure champions are very close to hunter, but i doubt they will put more dps on the line. Don't get me wrong champs are fine, as you know i play a champ too.
Last edited by Burio; Apr 10 2012 at 08:37 AM.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
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Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS
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lol. In a burst DPS situation like that when to arms is active and burg marks and such I've hit a 10,000 non crit hit in raids. I don't know how geared your hunter is, but maybe have some faith in it before deleting.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
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