Thread: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback : Weaver Revision

I did want to add a couple of requests to the list:

=== Pet bugs ===
1) The ranged pet has dps issues, other weavers seem to agree that it just doesn't cut it as is

2) When running on automatic, other Weavers claim the pet will break CC, it should NEVER attack a target under breakable CC unless explicitly ordered [I assume the issue is the hatchling seeing us put down debuffs that don't break the CC and the hatchling trying to 'assist' us by attacking that target, didn't LM pets get a fix for this a long time ago?]

3) When I'm 'marching' the poor hatchling can't keep up, could it be given a speed buff so it doesn't fall behind?

=== One More Thing (pretty please with dead flies on top) ===

Could we get something to help us get back in the fight when we come up out of Trap-Door Sanctuary (or better any burrow)?

Once you go down, you are probably dead when you come back up unless your buddies wipe the freeps. It would be nice if TDS could be more like wargs' Disappear which has both defensive (escape) and offensive (loop back for another pounce or bloody maul) uses. This will be especially relevant given that so many of the effects from our new toys (e.g. venom pips and the stacking mits from Born of Shadow) drop fast when we burrow.

A short shot of stun immunity would give an emerging weaver a chance to lay down some of those debuffs that are supposed to help survive long enough for our DoTs to get to work. If not CC immunity then perhaps a bit of protection of some other kind, maybe a short bubble (cocoon) to give us a few seconds to get back in the fight.

What I really want to hear, just once, is for a freep to say "don't stand there, there's a weaver under you" instead of "Over here, we have a weaver trapped".

Originally Posted by Faileon

Eight Legged Foe - Replace Parry buff with immunity to falling injury.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!


Clinging Webs - Replaces the Parry and Evade debuff with a +7% Miss Chance debuff for 1 min.
Still not worth traiting for it!! Either make it a good skill, or remove trait requirement.


Can you merge Tainted Kiss with Piercing Attack trait AND/OR remove Health Boost and Armor boost from traits and give it to all creeps permanently?

For me, clinging web is a must slot now. +7% miss chance is huge, it's the only form of avoidance not weakened by finesse. It also stacks with all other miss chance effects (reaver dust, the passive miss chance our agility debuff causes most melee classes). Add to this the recent cooldown change so we can use both clinging and entangling back-to-back so you can protect one debuff or the other from being cured with a potion. Then there's also the new entangled debuff.

The TK/PA traits are what they are. TK is actually going to be a lower portion of our damage (back in mirkwood it was about 60% of our dps, nowadays it's about 45-50%... just reading these changes I expect it to drop down to at least 30%). It might not be as vital to slot.

The PA trait will only need to be slotted if you are soloing IMO.




Other than that - I kneel before you Kelsan. I hope it will be as good as it sounds like.[/QUOTE]

My squishy spider is really looking forward to the update 6 changes.

Thanks for all of your work on the weaver Kelsan!

I think it would be pretty cool of the DoT from Piercing Attack stacked 3 times, just like Burning Embers and the warg's new Claw dot

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Kelsan,

I would like to suggest that one of these songs be played in the freep's headset whenever a Weaver attacks them. Just put it on shuffle .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6A6pMO_WKM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-vzUkYFoVo



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMk_OYEQW7U

LOL I hate you. Ridd. You know those songs are going to be stuck in my head all day now.... rotfl

PS: All three are spot on describing Beleguial.

PPS: Why'd you have to leeeeeave us? :'(

Have to say I like these changes. On the move and Acid damage now. Woot!!

Now where did that Minstrel go....

Really liking the improvements, cant wait to try them out. No falling damage, skillz while moving, acid damage, pips.... i think i just had a nerdgasm.

But really, its gonna be great. Now i can kite melee classes easier without having to stop to use some of my skills. Now i can chase after that snitchy burg as he jumps off the bridge. Now I can stay alive longer than 10 seconds. But most importantly...now I can actually be a threat!! It is going to be great to actually feel like I am contributing, rather than just tagging along.
Thank you Kelsan and Turbine, this update may just keep me from switching games.
MB

Originally Posted by elric7777

Now where did that Minstrel go....

You won't kill them even after this buff. They will just heal up

Appears the weaver may have a fighting chance!

1 Comment:

Why does the Rank12 skill Mephetic Kiss not stack with Tainted Kiss?

How many bleeds do burgs have? They All Stack!
How many bleeds do RKs have? They All Stack!
Captain bleeds? Two that stack [Not including Blade of Elendil]
LM Bleeds? More than one bleed and Burning Embers stacks 3 times PER LM!!
Hunter Bleeds? Stacking Barbed Arrows FTW

Piercing Attack, Leathal Kiss, Tainted Attack Shadow's Bite and Toxin are the only 5 skills we have for DPS...Mephetic Kiss is a rank 12 skill!! Please make Mephetic Kiss useful by allowing it to stack with Tainted Kiss.

Originally Posted by Nytshade617

Appears the weaver may have a fighting chance!

1 Comment:

Why does the Rank12 skill Mephetic Kiss not stack with Tainted Kiss?

How many bleeds do burgs have? They All Stack!
How many bleeds do RKs have? They All Stack!
Captain bleeds? Two that stack [Not including Blade of Elendil]
LM Bleeds? More than one bleed and Burning Embers stacks 3 times PER LM!!
Hunter Bleeds? Stacking Barbed Arrows FTW

Piercing Attack, Leathal Kiss, Tainted Attack Shadow's Bite and Toxin are the only 5 skills we have for DPS...Mephetic Kiss is a rank 12 skill!! Please make Mephetic Kiss useful by allowing it to stack with Tainted Kiss.

There are no "rank 12" skills anymore (you get it at 10 now).

Mephetic kiss was never intended to stack with tainted kiss, it was merely there to allow us to apply tainted kiss to multiple targets at the same time. It would have been HUGELY overpowered if the two of them stacked back in moria/mirkwood.

As for making them stack now, I don't think it's that big of a deal. We have quite a few stacking DoTs (5 if you use ranged pet by my count) once update 6 goes live.

Further, many of the examples you listed were cases where multiple PLAYERS can stack the same DoT... this functionality already exists for mephetic kiss (x spiders can stack x mephetic kisses on a single target).

Originally Posted by Sezneg

Further, many of the examples you listed were cases where multiple PLAYERS can stack the same DoT... this functionality already exists for mephetic kiss (x spiders can stack x mephetic kisses on a single target).

No; all the classes I listed have more than one bleed that can be used on one creep and tick at the same time.
LM Burning Embers stacks 3 times from one LM.
Hunter Barbed Arrow I believe stacks infinitely as long as they crit with fire oil active.

We have 2 bleeds; one common damage. An AoE bleed for less than 200 damage per 3s is pretty weak on its own. ICMR will overheal that.

These days with freep damage so high; it should stack with Tainted.

Originally Posted by Nytshade617

No; all the classes I listed have more than one bleed that can be used on one creep and tick at the same time.

Yes... and with update 6, we will have FIVE DoTs that we can apply that stack with eachother:

Tainted kiss
Piercing Attack
Poison Spray
Virulent Poison
Contact Poison (for those who use the ranged pet, assuming they do something about the auto attack...)

Originally Posted by Nytshade617

LM Burning Embers stacks 3 times from one LM.

This is new functionality that came with RoI, it is LM specific. Spiders =/= LMs.

Originally Posted by Nytshade617

Hunter Barbed Arrow I believe stacks infinitely as long as they crit with fire oil active.

Barbed arrow is a skill that applies a DoT regardless of whether or not fire oil is used. When fire oil is used, you will receive a minor DoT upon crits. I am not sure if this DoT stacks with itself (as of early moria it did not).

Originally Posted by Nytshade617

We have 2 bleeds; one common damage. An AoE bleed for less than 200 damage per 3s is pretty weak on its own. ICMR will overheal that.

As I've already stated, once U6 launches we have 4-5 stacking DoTs, not two. And you vastly overestimate the effect of ICMR...

Originally Posted by Nytshade617

These days with freep damage so high; it should stack with Tainted.

They could have gone that route. They chose instead to add a lot more complexity to the class than "instead of hitting this button every 6 six seconds, also throw in this button every 20". I'm sorry you can't see it. I would really recommend you to re-read the changes and contemplate them as a "whole package". There are a lot of moving parts to U6.

Originally Posted by Sezneg

Barbed arrow is a skill that applies a DoT regardless of whether or not fire oil is used. When fire oil is used, you will receive a minor DoT upon crits. I am not sure if this DoT stacks with itself (as of early moria it did not).

Barbed Arrow DoT doesn't stack, just between multiple players. And Fire Oil DoT, which is an effect of fire oil on any crit not just Barbed (just like Light Oil has a miss-chance debuff on crits), doesn't stack either. It would be hugely overpowered if it did... Just imagine Swift-bow crits, 3 DoTs in one shot .

It was probably mentioned but aren't two of those skills usable on the move already? Tainted kiss and Lethal kiss.

Originally Posted by I_fail_irl

It was probably mentioned but aren't two of those skills usable on the move already? Tainted kiss and Lethal kiss.

They are already usable on the move, yep.

Originally Posted by Sezneg

There are a lot of moving parts to U6.

This.
I am sure it will be impossible to guess the full impact of all the changes until a bit after they are rolled out. There was a lot of hope that the creep buffs for Isengard would be positive, but look how that turned out...

The more things that change at one time, the more I worry that no-one knows how this will end up, even the devs.

Originally Posted by AllHeart

Dear Kelsan,

Although your intentions were noble, the weaver update you have written will do nothing mostly to improve the weaver class.

1) you nerfed Catch Prey (currently is better, you get the full bonus for the full 30 seconds), clinging webs (currently is better, you get a negative parry and evade rating so you can burn down guards, wardens and burgs, your update will make them unstoppable due to them being able to keep up high parry and evade ratings), and you nerfed Eight-legged Foe (by removing a parry buff that a weaver needs to stay alive).

What you should have done is increased the Catch Prey Current bonuses to -/+ 20% and keep duration to 30 secs. Clinging Webs should not even have a cooldown if you where to truly honor the finesse/control class. And Eight-legged Foe you should have buffed the parry bonus and add the no-fall to it, not do a takeaway and add.

2) as someone said before weavers are the easiest creep to kill in the moors they almost always die within 10 seconds, therefore you have nothing to address this problem. do so. The thought process of they get better as the fight goes on is a joke, why because the weaver is dead in 10 seconds - any design for a weaver in combat beyond 10 seconds usually doesn't or never comes into play. You want them to get tougher as the fight goes on, then address the 10 second life span.

3) Here is a list of things you should have done to improve the weaver, see below:

a) Piercing Attack - almost all freeps do more damage and have no cooldowns or always have a melee skill that's not on cooldown. For almost all weavers this is there only melee attack. Fix this to no cooldown and double the initial damage and DOT.

b) give the weaver there own touch and go +50% evade buff, 30 seconds , 5 min cooldown. This will make them last for more than 10 seconds and might be able to use some of this update 6 as the fight progresses the weaver gets stronger design.

c) Tainted Kiss, you still have this as a 6 second cooldown. Either lower the cooldown, increase (double) the initial damage and/or increase the DOT, why because it either gets potted or removed and or the weaver is dead within the first 10 seconds so the freep is no longer in combat and the freep's out of combat morale regen is greater than the DOT.

d) lethal kiss, as of now we don't have a spam-able range skill so the weaver can't continue to do damage at range. Either remove the cooldown or double the damage, right now 400 or so per use of damage is too weak to be effective period.

e) as part of (d) above if you really want to honor the finesse/control class then lose the cooldown on all webbing skills period. If the weaver is not allowed to spam a basic attack skill then at least let it keep up the webs on a freep raid.

f) you wanted the weaver to be a harasser class in the moors then remove the web inductions, lose the trait, and allow all web skills to be used on the run, respect your decision on the harasser aspect more.

g) trapdoor sanctuary, right now it's a joke, you get only 60 seconds burrow and all the freeps camp your burrow to kill you. you never live to escape and creeps never come to rescue a weaver ever. If 24 freeps camping your burrow seeing who is going to 1 shot you, then make them wait. suggestion increase the trapdoor sanctuary to 15 minutes and leave the 5 minute cooldown in place. In a creep raid, it usually take on the average 5-10 minutes for a creep raid to re-group and come back out to fight freeps. this will allow you to rejoin them without dying 100% of the time.

h) toxin, triple the power drain and lose the power drain over time aspect. Instead have it drain a chuck of power immediately. as of now all freeps have icpr high enough this never effects combat. And since most weavers die within 10 seconds of a fight, the poison power drain then goes up against the freeps out of power regen, which is a joke.

I) Born of shadow, you could add fire and well as light to the AOE buff and increase the percentage as well. Not that it would really matter since most weavers would still die within 10 seconds of the fight anyways, but this might extend it to 15 seconds.

J) web the earth, the run debuff is such a short time, extend it to 30 seconds.

k) Poison spray, really only -325 agility. You have burgs and hunters running around with 1600 agility. how is this going to even be a factor, you need a major increase, try -1325 agility debuff.

L) Latent Poison, i don't why it has a 10 second delay for stunning, no freep class has any delays on their stuns. Lose the countdown and for the trait have it reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds. And increase the power drain as well.

M) Venomous Haze, you want us to be a finesse/control class then lose the cooldown.

These suggestions is what would go a long way in making the weaver a viable class, i hope you would consider any and all of the above before update 6.

Sincerely,

You obviously didn't read the update very well. Also most of your suggestions have to be a joke, right?

Entangling Web

Increase induction duration as well as attack duration.

I really do hope that effect is still curable, or induction classes are going to be crying tears of woe!

But yay for the update! I'm looking forward to it. ^_^

Entagling web is currently +30% attack duration.

Increase induction duration as well as attack duration.

Does this mean, it will be higher than 30% with update OR that you will just add +30% induction time to that?

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I really do hope that effect is still curable, or induction classes are going to be crying tears

Meh, when I can cure +75% induction duration from legacied addle I might actually start caring what freep induction classes think ;p

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Kelsan,

I would like to suggest that one of these songs be played in the freep's headset whenever a Weaver attacks them. Just put it on shuffle .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6A6pMO_WKM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-vzUkYFoVo



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMk_OYEQW7U

oh, that is very funny...

Getting unburrowed from trapdoor sanctuary because a freep skill is in its induction is getting
very old, please do something about giving us a save that is reliable.......at the moment
its like a lottery, whether or not I'm going to get down and stay down.

The same with our fear skill, apart from Web The Earth, it's our number one skill to get a
melee dps class off us long enough to get some seperation from them, but the fear
only comes off around 1/3 or 1/4 of the time, can we get at least something we can trait
to seriously reduce the chance it can be resisted, then spiders can trait for it depending on
how they want to run. I know I'd look to remove a class trait to make room for it, if I could
at least double the chance of my fear would take effect

Originally Posted by AllHeart

Dear Kelsan,

Although your intentions were noble, the weaver update you have written will do nothing mostly to improve the weaver class.

1) you nerfed Catch Prey (currently is better, you get the full bonus for the full 30 seconds), clinging webs (currently is better, you get a negative parry and evade rating so you can burn down guards, wardens and burgs, your update will make them unstoppable due to them being able to keep up high parry and evade ratings), and you nerfed Eight-legged Foe (by removing a parry buff that a weaver needs to stay alive).

What you should have done is increased the Catch Prey Current bonuses to -/+ 20% and keep duration to 30 secs. Clinging Webs should not even have a cooldown if you where to truly honor the finesse/control class. And Eight-legged Foe you should have buffed the parry bonus and add the no-fall to it, not do a takeaway and add.

2) as someone said before weavers are the easiest creep to kill in the moors they almost always die within 10 seconds, therefore you have nothing to address this problem. do so. The thought process of they get better as the fight goes on is a joke, why because the weaver is dead in 10 seconds - any design for a weaver in combat beyond 10 seconds usually doesn't or never comes into play. You want them to get tougher as the fight goes on, then address the 10 second life span.

3) Here is a list of things you should have done to improve the weaver, see below:

a) Piercing Attack - almost all freeps do more damage and have no cooldowns or always have a melee skill that's not on cooldown. For almost all weavers this is there only melee attack. Fix this to no cooldown and double the initial damage and DOT.

b) give the weaver there own touch and go +50% evade buff, 30 seconds , 5 min cooldown. This will make them last for more than 10 seconds and might be able to use some of this update 6 as the fight progresses the weaver gets stronger design.

c) Tainted Kiss, you still have this as a 6 second cooldown. Either lower the cooldown, increase (double) the initial damage and/or increase the DOT, why because it either gets potted or removed and or the weaver is dead within the first 10 seconds so the freep is no longer in combat and the freep's out of combat morale regen is greater than the DOT.

d) lethal kiss, as of now we don't have a spam-able range skill so the weaver can't continue to do damage at range. Either remove the cooldown or double the damage, right now 400 or so per use of damage is too weak to be effective period.

e) as part of (d) above if you really want to honor the finesse/control class then lose the cooldown on all webbing skills period. If the weaver is not allowed to spam a basic attack skill then at least let it keep up the webs on a freep raid.

f) you wanted the weaver to be a harasser class in the moors then remove the web inductions, lose the trait, and allow all web skills to be used on the run, respect your decision on the harasser aspect more.

g) trapdoor sanctuary, right now it's a joke, you get only 60 seconds burrow and all the freeps camp your burrow to kill you. you never live to escape and creeps never come to rescue a weaver ever. If 24 freeps camping your burrow seeing who is going to 1 shot you, then make them wait. suggestion increase the trapdoor sanctuary to 15 minutes and leave the 5 minute cooldown in place. In a creep raid, it usually take on the average 5-10 minutes for a creep raid to re-group and come back out to fight freeps. this will allow you to rejoin them without dying 100% of the time.

h) toxin, triple the power drain and lose the power drain over time aspect. Instead have it drain a chuck of power immediately. as of now all freeps have icpr high enough this never effects combat. And since most weavers die within 10 seconds of a fight, the poison power drain then goes up against the freeps out of power regen, which is a joke.

I) Born of shadow, you could add fire and well as light to the AOE buff and increase the percentage as well. Not that it would really matter since most weavers would still die within 10 seconds of the fight anyways, but this might extend it to 15 seconds.

J) web the earth, the run debuff is such a short time, extend it to 30 seconds.

k) Poison spray, really only -325 agility. You have burgs and hunters running around with 1600 agility. how is this going to even be a factor, you need a major increase, try -1325 agility debuff.

L) Latent Poison, i don't why it has a 10 second delay for stunning, no freep class has any delays on their stuns. Lose the countdown and for the trait have it reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds. And increase the power drain as well.

M) Venomous Haze, you want us to be a finesse/control class then lose the cooldown.

These suggestions is what would go a long way in making the weaver a viable class, i hope you would consider any and all of the above before update 6.

Sincerely,

good thing you are not a dev. we would be more god mode than minstrels if these went live.

thnxs for the updates! i love that piercing attack and lethal kiss will be acid dmg and our ranged dps skills can be used on the move

theres some stuff that needs to get fixed:

-ranged pet(heard auto attack is so long that its not worth slotting)
-toxin really needs to get scaled (this skill is outdated bad since theres no caps now)
-poison spray agility reduction also needs to get scaled(maybe change it to a % decrease instead of number value)

heres some changes i like to see:

-increase the time you can stay underground in trapdoor by another 1min or 2min so help can arrive in time plus it might cause some fear in freeps of being ganked while they wait so they flee after a min of waiting (hows that for adding surviveability for weaver class?
-our cc in terms of root/daze/stun/fear is decent after getting some nice traits through store/sigils but i was hoping you guys would have focused more on our debuffing skills that helps support the group like entangling web and web the earth for example. maybe add some new skills in this area that are similar to some of that of lms.

One thing. Why does not our Daze apply Ensnared effect? Why doesn't Necrosis apply Ensnared effect?

Currently it's only: Roots (both aoe and single), Catch the Prey and Entagling/Clinging webs.



EDIT: Morkorga scored a critical hit with Drink Deep on the Bloodlust Leech for 1,997 Acid damage to Morale.
+1k heal

Morkorga scored a critical hit with Envenom on the Bloodlust Leech for 1,448 Acid damage to Morale.



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1...hot00126tv.jpg

Originally Posted by BadgerB

What I really want to hear, just once, is for a freep to say "don't stand there, there's a weaver under you" instead of "Over here, we have a weaver trapped".

That is an excellent point.

Right now Trap Door really does feel like a Trap, but for the Spider, not the prey.

It would be nice if coming out of a burrow a spider had stun immunity for 6 seconds, and also invisible for 2 seconds.

That at least would give them a fighting chance.

Right now there is nothing to fear when a spider burrows, when it burrows it means the spider is scared and probably about to die.