Thread: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback: PvMP - Audacity

Creep damage is fine. It's the freep damage which is ridiculously high. If this gear with audacity is really good and most of the freeps get it, then I believe RvRs will be really imbalanced. OP minstrel heals + better defence than before against already very low creep dps will result in freeps not dying at raids all. It is already a nightmare to fight against a freep raid witch 4+ minis who are target forwarding.

Of course, this is for the current setup. We need to see what update 6 brings to creeps first. Maybe creep healing will be buffed to be on par with minis (not counting on it though).

I don't do much PvP but audacity is a stupid name for the new stat. Please rename it 'Prowess'

Definitions of prowess from dictionary.com:

1. outstanding or superior skill or ability
2. bravery or fearlessness, esp in battle

A much better fit.

I prefer Grit, personally.

I'm partial to chutzpah

Originally Posted by RtrnofdMax

I prefer Grit, personally.

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

I don't do much PvP but audacity is a stupid name for the new stat. Please rename it 'Prowess'

Definitions of prowess from dictionary.com:

1. outstanding or superior skill or ability
2. bravery or fearlessness, esp in battle

A much better fit.

The name fits my Warg just fine

Audacity

boldness or daring, especially with confident or arrogant disregard for personal safety, conventional thought, or other restrictions.


However to a NPC hugging goatridng Freep...yeah I can see why it doesnt fit

Freep version should be:

Skittishness

Originally Posted by quigonwindu

I'm partial to chutzpah

Absolutely this is the name for it. +1

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

The name fits my Warg just fine

Audacity

boldness or daring, especially with confident or arrogant disregard for personal safety, conventional thought, or other restrictions.


However to a NPC hugging goatridng Freep...yeah I can see why it doesnt fit

Freep version should be:

Skittishness

Given that definition of audacity, it shouldn't be available to any class that enters or has been in stealth within the last minute. Nothing audacious about being invisible until the last second then unloading on someone.

That being said, Worg should get an extra rank of it - dude makes more suicidal charges into superior numbers than anyone I've ever seen.

As long as we are bothering to complain about the terminology, "seasonal mechanic" is a pretty silly metaphor for planned obsolescence. However, I do love how the dev diaries lately have tried to pitch this as if it was a good thing for anyone other than Turbine. Although, I guess if I wanted to jump into PvMP, it might be reassuring to know that every time there's an update every existing player's gear/traits will become half as effective as they used to be, so my completely ineffective starting gear/traits will be less of a disadvantage for that week.

The mention of Audacity as a way to let non-level cap freeps get into the Moors makes me wonder: Will level restrictions on PvMP gear be going away, in addition to the rank restrictions? That would actually be very interesting way to make it so that under-75 freeps can actually survive long enough in the Moors to do something useful, even if they're still significantly weaker than a level 75 freep.

Originally Posted by furtim

The mention of Audacity as a way to let non-level cap freeps get into the Moors makes me wonder: Will level restrictions on PvMP gear be going away, in addition to the rank restrictions? That would actually be very interesting way to make it so that under-75 freeps can actually survive long enough in the Moors to do something useful, even if they're still significantly weaker than a level 75 freep.

Unless the armor were restricted so that you could only equip it in the Moors, I don't see this happening. Otherwise you'd have people hit level 40 and go grab level 75 gear to wear for the next 35 levels.

True. I suppose it would be good enough if they keep the level-banded PvMP armour that we have right now, but grant the same amount of Audacity to all the sets.

Hooray, another new unnecessary stat is given to us to need to add into the equation. And, unlike Finesse, you won't find this on loads of different pieces so you can customise your build in the Moors. Instead, you'll have to have the PvP set in the Moors or you're hindering yourself.

Seriously, I love that PvMP is getting attention but what's wrong is that it's getting ridiculously unwanted attention. Has this current PvMP dev stumbled across a new game that he likes and he's trying to change things in the Moors to mirror it as much as possible? I can't see any other reason they'd keep making these random and unhelpful changes.

Apparently, doing some simple fixes on creep numbers is just too mind boggling compared to adding brand new grindfests. Hurry up GW2.

With all the last (and 2nd last, and 3rd last.. oh, CD iof last is over, hooray) resort buttons, reducing DPS pace will increase freeps survivability again.

At the moment, there is a CHANCE that a group of creeps can do damage fast enough to kill one in a group of minstrels. With reduced pace, this will not be possible anymore.

We HAD this. Freeps were unbeatable, if working together and played (slightly) right.

I am not saying that the pace cannot be reduced a bit. No problem. But not to much, and creeps need really much higher DPS than they have now.

Ive seen the word "grind" used a lot but if Audacity is improved via Commendations, how is it a grind?

Commendations = PVP, not PVE

Slowing down the pace of combat is extremely important, and I really hope Audacity does just that. The only concern I have is that Heavy Armored Freeps are going to be an impenetrable fortress with maxed out Audacity.



Regrettfully, I've finally come to the conclusion that it will be quite impossible to flesh out all my toons with Audacity. Commendation cap is going to really hurt players that have multiple toons, and enjoy playing them all In a way, I feel like U6 is trying to limit my options on what class I'd like to bring out to the moors. Now I'm going to have to consider whether or not I want to bring out the toon with no Audacity, or the one who has it maxed out.


Lately, every time I think about U6, I need to pop an aspirin. Audacity might help alleviate some of the headache.

It will hardly be a grind for some, a nefarious few creep and freep will FC their commendations

Boonie

The Avengers

Black Guard

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Ive seen the word "grind" used a lot but if Audacity is improved via Commendations, how is it a grind?

Commendations = PVP, not PVE

I guess that would depend on point of view. to improve audacity one has to fight and win. If you are a creep that means you have a longer road assuming damage remains the same. So yes, you will "grind" longer then a freep will for an equal reward. These changes seem to assume a 1:1 ratio where nothing could be further from the truth.

Grind might be a stretch, but you get the picture Im sure.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

I guess that would depend on point of view. to improve audacity one has to fight and win. If you are a creep that means you have a longer road assuming damage remains the same. So yes, you will "grind" longer then a freep will for an equal reward. These changes seem to assume a 1:1 ratio where nothing could be further from the truth.

Grind might be a stretch, but you get the picture Im sure.

Good points but at least Freeps will have to actually PVP for Audacity instead of just Ezfarming the Chieftans and Tyrants when there is little to no enemy resistance

This will force more actual PVP

From a freeps perspective.....would I be correct in saying that by increasing our Audacity by choosing to equip the new pvp armour we will be increasing our incoming damage mitigation(and CC) at the expense of our outgoing damage?

And from a creeps perspective.....there is no trade-off?

Originally Posted by Yosoff

"The bonuses that Audacity grants will then be re-distributed so that the new max rank provides the same defense bonuses the old max rank did." "...providing ample advancement opportunities to veteran players!"

So the plan is to seasonally nerf our existing gear into the ground and force us to grind out new gear just to get back to our old level of effectiveness; then you go on to claim that this is somehow providing advancement? That's just a sick, cruel joke. I'd rather grind radiance gear again.

It is hard not to interpret pvmp "seasons" exactly as such.

I don't know who is making these pvmp designs, but they strike me as focusing on, at best, merely secondary issues. Again why is it that vet players (esp. on creepside) are never rewarded? And why can't we get a new map? Raising creep DPS and a giving us a new map would bring in or bring back more pvmp players than any other change you can make out here, I think.

So, if Turbine admits fights are too fast due to huge DPS numbers and ridiculous CC, why not just lower DPS and CC effectiveness in the Moors period?

I HATE PvP stats with a PASSION. One thing I always liked about PvMP is that it never had a PvP stat. I really hope you guys know what you're doing here.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Hooray, another new unnecessary stat is given to us to need to add into the equation. And, unlike Finesse, you won't find this on loads of different pieces so you can customise your build in the Moors. Instead, you'll have to have the PvP set in the Moors or you're hindering yourself.

Seriously, I love that PvMP is getting attention but what's wrong is that it's getting ridiculously unwanted attention. Has this current PvMP dev stumbled across a new game that he likes and he's trying to change things in the Moors to mirror it as much as possible? I can't see any other reason they'd keep making these random and unhelpful changes.

Apparently, doing some simple fixes on creep numbers is just too mind boggling compared to adding brand new grindfests. Hurry up GW2.

Exactly what I was thinking

so now it will take 10 min to kill a heavy instead of 5 minutes? Minstrels and wardens will be officialy unkillable?
It's too difficult fixing spiders? Its too difficult fixing creep mitgations&morale to compensate freep dps? (slowing combat pace at the same time without adding new and unnecessary stats). Adjusting creep heals to match higher morale pools?

Turbine, you are a joke

Again.. YA another grind for everyone. Exactly the last thing anyone here requested.

As a creep player here is where I see the massive problems in the moors, none of them being addressed by these updates.

1. Stale playing field, moors is fine but old, and any new map will go they same route. They should be working on instanced arenas.

2. Creep damage cannot keep up with most freep damage, Stacking a warleader for 20k morale, doesnt help when your out cc, out dpsed, or outhealed at every turn. Frankly if they cut my morale down to a typical guardian of 12k but upped my dps by 40% I would trade it off easily. Better yet, INCREASE creep power pools.

3. Lack of customization. Endless grind to a rank for a 1-2% difference is ludicrous. Allow creeps to really customize. We should have double the amount of trait fields honeslty. This is like our armour, the ablity to flex out toons to compete.

4. (removing creep goggles) please slightly do the following, increase hunters flexablity to survive in the moors, maybe by allowing inductionless press onward, fix thier stregth of earth and allow df every 30 mins in the moors. RKs need some inductionaless heals as well, other then the minor one. ( remove induction , increase cooldown, this will also help with some of the spike damage issues rks deal with from time to time while thier healing as well, this could be non moors fix) . Nerf minis and champs in the moors only. Minis is easy. 50% warspeach 25% harmony nerf. Champs, biggest issue is the two bubbles, dont know how to fix it in the moors . But them being bloody cleavers, then popping two bubbles, adamant, then sprint is beyond ridicoulous at times. I think most of the other classes are fairly balanced in the moors.

These are all items that we asked for, or are concerened about. I think only a VERY small percantage of players really think regrinding junk is fun. Its not fun. Stuff like that just puts more and more casual players off.

Regrind currency with ridicoulous cap, charge huge amounts to junk like appearences and then tell people they also have to spend money for yet another stat.

Whats up with the stats people? Fix the basic issues first, then worry about adding stuff second.

Originally Posted by Darkheart06

So, if Turbine admits fights are too fast due to huge DPS numbers and ridiculous CC, why not just lower DPS and CC effectiveness in the Moors period?

I HATE PvP stats with a PASSION. One thing I always liked about PvMP is that it never had a PvP stat. I really hope you guys know what you're doing here.

Lowering DPS wouldn't really work. Imagine all those classes with various escape skills, all they'd need to do is pop them and they'd get away with ease because the DPS is so low. There would be nothing to stop the creep/freep you just jumped from being able to keep running to safety through the damage you do, regardless of any slows or stuns.

Then again, this change doesn't work either.

wow everyone screams for help in the moors so devs revamp creeps pple scream devs are trying a new token idea everyone screams devs try a new stat evryone QQs.pple want nice pvp gear pple still cry. im excited to try all this out heck I cant wait to finilly get some pvp gear..try me new warg..try the new stat ty turbine!!! im for once in the boat...good to see so much pvp action!!!

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

wow everyone screams for help in the moors so devs revamp creeps pple scream devs are trying a new token idea everyone screams devs try a new stat evryone QQs.pple want nice pvp gear pple still cry. im excited to try all this out heck I cant wait to finilly get some pvp gear..try me new warg..try the new stat ty turbine!!! im for once in the boat...good to see so much pvp action!!!

Because we can already see potential problems. While more information and testing will give us the truth of the matter, it's still better to voice our concerns now rather than later. That said, the attempts to fix problems in PvMP are appreciated.

This is interesting, how it fits into the bigger picture is the key.

I am going to refrain from commenting too much as there seems to be a significant rebuild going on and how this fits in is largely dependent on other factors.

Originally Posted by ararax2

So, Let me get this straight.
Freepies and Creepies hit rank 7 in Audacity.

New season starts.

If Freeps hit lv 85, old gear is stat terribad, and they need to buy all 6 new pieces.

New season starts freeps are still lv 85.
They now need to aquire new pvmp gear for all 6 slots

In both cases creeps just need to get the next level worth.

So unless the next level for creeps costs the same as a full set of armor for freeps, i dont see how this in any way works.

Terrible idea.

Also will really make new people unlikely to come out to the moors. That season's piece they ear will not be worth much at all if they earn it at the end of a season.

Just make it a passive stat for freeps and creeps.

Except that with ROI the level 65 PvMP gear was able to be traded into level 75 PvMP gear (and the grind back then was also much, much worse).

I think we can reasonably expect something similar as the level cap goes up again.

Originally Posted by Blister_Burster

From a freeps perspective.....would I be correct in saying that by increasing our Audacity by choosing to equip the new pvp armour we will be increasing our incoming damage mitigation(and CC) at the expense of our outgoing damage?

And from a creeps perspective.....there is no trade-off?

Hopefully that's how it works. Otherwise, people fighting with equal audacity will just have the same result as it does now.

Originally Posted by n3xxus

Your going to force me to wear PvP armour. Which is never better than raid gear, has usefull set bonuses for only 1 or 2 classes, and never gets updated with expansions. Indirect nerf to freeps. Make it a passive just like creeps.

good, freeps need a nerf, badly.

God you people really want it all don't you?

What a bloody stupid change. So instead of spending time in the moors because of PvP, we spend time in the moors to aquire items so that we can actually do PvP? So we need to farm a set with awesome setbonuses like Low Cut slow immunity in order to be able to compete? No more using equipment that we spend days and weeks to farm in PvE because of it fitting our playstyle?

So and with your awesome season mechanic where the new high rank of audacity is the same as the old maximum stat wise, we'll have to do that stupid grind again, just to farm the next set of armour with the most useless bonuses? And because it is a passive for creeps they will have to spend the same amount of commendations on the couple of new ranks as we have to to aquire a whole set of gear. I am sure you thougt about that too.

And because you mention that audacity stats will be the same how is this going to affect balance? When you slow down combat speed (which I am supporting all the way) by 10% by adding the same mitigation and dmg effects to both sides, anyone will still do the same DMG proportionally therfore nothing but the time it takes changes. This does not affect balance at all it just makes imbalance take longer. You need to specifically adress class to class in order to achieve balance.

This is just a grind. Similar systems have always proven that any STAT dishing out bonuses to frequent PvPers will just scare off any newbie because they will just be massacred. Seen that in Rift and seen that in ToR. Even if max rank reduces everything only by 5% the difference will be huge.

If you really insist on doing this then why on earth would you tie it to gear, when with every update people are complaining rightfully about the PvP gear? For ####s sakes make it a passive to gain as we go, so at least it will not affect traitlines, favoured stat setups and our darn playstyles.

Originally Posted by I_fail_irl

Hopefully that's how it works. Otherwise, people fighting with equal audacity will just have the same result as it does now.

See this is where it all goes wrong. We will go grinding with every expansion for gear that we would not use otherwise just because of a stat we can hardly compete without. For this we are gimping playstyles, stats, bonuses. And this will not even take an effect on balance because there will still be classes that are so over the top simply because of their class dynamics, There will still be flavours of the month. How is this going to affect mistrels, champs or guards on one freepside, and reavers and BAs or whatever is just the class to play with the next update.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Unless the armor were restricted so that you could only equip it in the Moors, I don't see this happening. Otherwise you'd have people hit level 40 and go grab level 75 gear to wear for the next 35 levels.

Currently certain gear is only gated by rank. No level restrictions. I use this on certain toons now. Get with friends that dont mind a lvl 40 tag along and hit rank 4 in a couple of hours.....go get map and gear....go back to pve land.

What i want to know is will that audacity be one the current lvl 75 gear or on some new one?
I started moors recently, have some broches and stuff and i dont know wether to get a couple of pieces now or save it.

.....or just disable grouping.




I guess 6 would be okay; but no more!

Interesting Idea, especially when I'm into getting back in this game for pvp..

Seems like another opportunity for freep gear-swapping as well.
Hunter Camoes, swaps to dps PVE gear, burn hot HS one or two-shot a creep, then swap back to the pvp gear for the defensive bonus...

hope this cannot be macroed.

On another note. Now where killing people really does matter since you get a currency that will make you take less DMG etc. what is going to be done about farming commendations? Anybody can create and delete a creep within minutes, it will dish out full commendations a couple of times, you create a new one and kill it again. Or you could just let a freep and creep dmg themselve and a healer in the back will just get the commendations for healing.
Now before farming was a problem as well, a small one though, but people were farming for a simple symbol in their UI, nothing more. Now it can become quite relevant with audacity. Farming will go right up as well. Is it WAI? Bannable offense?

Just stop spending months creating development ideas like this. I'm not saying you have a bad idea. I am saying your not getting to the real problem with PVP. From the looks of things this patch alot of work has gone out into PVP, but all the work STILL has given me NO INCENTIVE TO PLAY THE MOORS AS A FREEP. ZIP.

Hey - We are giving you guys new armor sets! They are underpowered! :P

If you want to make a business of entertainment you need your customers to a) Want to enjoy the content and b) Get some sort of reward/feeling at the end. It is fun fighting creeps, but after killing 100,000 creeps I need something else to motivate me I get nothing but a title about some Marshall.

Give me some incentive to play already? Its to simple. Less Inc damage for rank, more output damage, more morale, pve equivalent armor only avail rank 11-15 pieces. This makes players WANT (pve and pvp) to go out to the moors! Thats what you want, that's what I want. I dont need... Audacity? Nobody does.

I honestly appreciate that you guys have given all the attention to pvp you have, but its been utterly wasted. After playing this game since SOA i think I'm done.

Now I realise how hard it would be to work as a PvP Dev.

All but the most feep goggled people know that freeps have enjoyed a significant advantage lately. This advantage has come about mostly due to their ability to max out their main stats with the removal of stat caps. Legendary items and reduced CD's on big skills has also caused this too but to a far lesser degree IMO.

The new armor and new stat means this:

Freeps will want the new gear, it won't allow them to massively stack one or two stats, their DPS and stupidly high crits will be reduced and PvP will be more even. Most importantly all the PvE carebears get to keep things the same.

Any freep who is calling for audacity as a passive is essentially saying "I want to have my cake and eat it too, I want to keep my bloated crits and DPS and trade off nothing to receive less incoming damage and CC." These freeps are asking to become even more powerful and still trade off nothing.

Creeps get this as a passive because they don't wear armor sets. Freeps get it on their armor because they need to be made less powerful in the Moors, less customisation for freeps will also make balancing the two sides less complicated . Also it's a good thing that both sides need to PvP to get PvP advancement.

Audacity needs to be seasonal as well or the creeps will be too powerful after every level increase.

I think it is a novel idea.

@ the people who are QQing about "another thing to grind". You get audacity by
participating in PvP. If you think PvP is a grind then don't do it. Or just wear your PvE armour and deal less damage to creeps (due to their audacity) while being subject to more CC (because you have less audacity).

I agree with the above post. I laughed alot after reading some of these freeps post. Specially about this being a nerf to freeps etc. The idea is a reasonable and should best tested in BR server.