Thread: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback: PvMP - Audacity

Audacity and Commendations are, by far, the worst change to come to the Moors.

The Dev Diary is incredibly misleading. If I had to guess, no-one thought this through, no-one tested it. And none of the desired results were achieved.

Being a new player in the Moors is the worst it has ever been. Your 1 Audacity gives you nothing. You still die. You are still fodder. You can do nothing in retaliation. Now you NEED to get kills to be able to purchase your skills and your audacity. You are completely ineffectual in combat without them. You need to have them...to get them.

Before you could effectively quest to earn skills. And way before that, you could effectively group to get them. Neither is the case anymore.

New Creeps have to go through tremendous pains now in order to face a very sad choice...which of my skills and traits can I afford to not get? The influx of Commendations is in no way comparable to Destiny Points and at the lower ranks the Moors is in a very sad state.

At the higher ranks, you've changed nothing at all, really. Freeps benefit more from the system, as usual. At best you've inconvenienced Freeps, who now have to wear hideous armor to be competitive. At worst, you've made glass cannon classes...harder to kill. Their damage remains outrageously high. Rune-Keepers especially are so unbelievably overpowered now it is an utter joke - at least before you could kill them - they aren't squishy at all now with Audacity. They can and still do 2-3 shot Creeps. Maybe better than before given the RK changes.

What good does it do for both sides to be doing 30% less damage...when one side uses less attacks that do more damage...and the other uses many attacks that do less damage. The Moors is all about the first few seconds of combat and Creeps still get blown up in seconds and now Freeps don't barring overwhelming odds.

The only thing Audacity has done to really slow down combat is institute a grind to make one's character viable.

Parity is further away than it has been in a long time. Playability is worse too.

I realize the system wasn't meant to bring balance to the Moors...but how can you in good conscious implement it when it screws things up so bad?

I sincerely hope the cries of 'Commendations are a Turbine plot to force people to use the store for their skills' are true. Otherwise it means the game devs are simply AMAZINGLY incompetent. Either way I am disgusted.

Originally Posted by Smartbean

In addition to my post above;
The Audacity system could have it merits though, I think, IF it's been changed and tweaked that is;

Firstly, make the Audacity passive for freeps aswell (as already suggested on here) and not make it gear depended and thus creating a gating mechanism (like Radiance).

Secondly, tweak Audacity into proportion (not start of at whooping -25% at rank 1 and scale up to rank 7) by scaling the defensive buff per rank;

- Increase the defensive buffs with 1% per 3 ranks (rank 3 = -1%...rank 6 = -2%... rank 9 = -3%... rank 12 = -4% and at rank 15 the max buff would be -5% of every buff that's included in Audacity now) or;

- If the above isn't effective enough increase the defensive buffs with 1% each rank (rank 0 = -0%, rank 1 = -1% etc etc... and rank 15 = -15% of every buff that's included in Audacity now) or;

- If that's is too low aswell, maybe increase it with 2% per rank (so at rank 15 the max buff would be -30% of every buff that's included in Audacity now)

This way the playing field would be levelled for everyone, freep and creep alike...starting freeps and creeps have a nice bonus to work for and the higher ranks have a (slight) perk over lower ranked creeps/freeps. And this way rank will actually count for something aswell.

Holy cow, yes please....

Having things based on ranks.....crazy!!! Anyway, create some buff that is active in the moors. Call it a corruption for creeps and inspired greatness for freeps (name doesn't really matter..). The buff starts at R1 and build each rank. The buff can be tweaked over time to help balance things, so the buff for creeps will end up doing something different than the one for freeps.

This buff would do things like raise ICMR and Morale, it could also raise mitigations or dmg/phs mastery/tac mastery, decrease CC duration, etc. Whatever.... but make it based on rank. But PLEASE remove audacity. It's too expensive stat-wise. Remove audacity and give me back some will and crit (for mini armor).

Harl

I don't like the audacity system, or what it represents. basically what your doing is separating pvp and pve to the point of making pvpers never want to pve, and pve players never want to pvp. If you have to grind for 2-4 different sets of armor to be viable in both your basally just making excessive grinding for everyone with out purpose.

If everyone in pvp has 7 audacity that it is as if the audacity doesn't exist so why make a setup that basically forces you to get gear for something you didn't need it for in the first place? The point you make of slowing down combat is ridiculous because it does not do anything to slow combat down. If all the people in the raid have 7 audacity and the creeps as well then that means no one has audacity and the game play and flow of the battle proceeds exactly as if it was never there.

The people it makes suffer are the ones who don't have time to farm the gear, and the ones who are just starting out with very little resource to get the items.

All your doing is making a power vacuum that will inevitably force all the non pvp hardcore players into never pvping in the ettenmoors, while enforcing the hardcore players who while they may not even be highly skilled players will still kill people who are better then them just simply because they have more audacity.

-10% incoming dmg and +10% outgoing dmg is essentially a power Vacuum of 20% dmg that any player with 1 audacity has to overcome just to be able to kill anything.

I came back basically from being out of the game for about a month to find out I can't pvp anymore because I can't kill anything without 7 audacity. I can't get audacity without killing people for commendations and I don't have the ability to kill anyone as a Rank 12 captain in full lvl 75 pvp gear/high end raid gear.



I just wanted to log in and have fun pvping in the game that I really liked, and when i logged in I just was not having fun anymore. You have basically broken the game for me, Gratz on that.

Oh and lets not mention the lag spikes that happen so consistently that fighting as a melee character against range class's is pure Foley every time you get close to them they are 20 meters away in the opposite direction. I have heard probably about 100 different people already complain about the lag spikes, and more threads than that have popped up and been deleted.

Geez I leave for 1 month and you break the game, way to go turbine.

Then you add commendations to all the deeds and titles you get from the moors but don't retroactively apply those to any of the players who have already completed them all nor do you give them a chance to re-complete them.


I get it your trying to copy other games like wow's resilience, swtor's Expertise or any other game you can think of that includes a pvp only stat. Let me tell you from experience it doesn't work, you end up with half the players with the gear and half of them have the most horrible time grinding to get the gear they end up giving up and quitting the game. Which is basically what your gonna get from me if the audacity system is not taken out of the game.


I also don't like the new cookie cutter gear, its the same worthless junk i didn't want to buy from the pve sets, focusing on 1 stat in particular over another. I prefer to use my lvl 75 pvmp set i spent 3 months getting and i wouldn't have spent three months getting it if i knew you were just gonna patch it and make it obsolete in a few months. Just like i never got a lvl 65 first age weapon because i knew the lvl 75 cap change was coming. If you guys want to waste my time please don't, I have very little of it these days, I just spend 8 days working 9 hours a day on a Tile rip out and reinstall job I have got more cuts and bruises then I know what to do with and when I come home to relax with a nice game of pvp I don't expect to see this garbage in my face. Mark my words the changes will make you lose your player base, especially the higher ranked people who have already invested thousands of hours into the game. They expect to be able to pvp without having to grind for new gear every month, especially when your rank 10+

What was the point in me getting rank 12 again? so you could take away all the items i get on a whim?



And to the people who would say, well this will keep the game active so more players will be online. No it won't the players who want the gear will get it, and then they will stop playing just the same as before, and those who don't have the time to get it won't try. I was out there already for a full day the pvp was dry and boring nothing like it was previous. The people were more interested in questing then they were fighting, I.E. keep flips over and over, and worse people flipping from one side(freep) to the other (creep) to flip the keeps back so they can do it again.


Then you linked the commendations to buying potions... and buying pve items as well as triggering quests. So... now someone can spend there commendations they earn by accident on a ranger losing 2-3 days of work without realizing it.

Maybe I am not particularly against the idea of Commendations but they shouldn't be linked to pve quests in the ettenmoors, and they should not be used to buy audacity. If it has to remain in the game it should be given freely to every pvp character as a trait, not tied to gear. Your basically making the same mistake as the radiance system you held in place for 2 years before you finally admitted it was a broken system. Do we really need to go two years under an audacity system before you realize it doesn't work? I have played the other games that use this exact system, all it ends up doing is making people lose when they should win, and people win when they should lose.

The skill of a player should never be dwarfed by a requirement for gear beyond acceptable standards. You have just gone past those acceptable standards and placed people with gear above the ones who are skilled in play.


I am very angry, and also quite sad that lotro a quite unique game past most standards of the words has given in to copying other mmo's. If i wanted to play wow(resiliance) or Swtor(expertice) I would go play them, I chose to play lotro not a copy cat game of wow.

This, and the utter contempt shown for the hunter class particularly in PvP, is why it will take a horde of rampaging mumakil to pull me back to the moors.

Originally Posted by ydoc

...

Sherwood I honest to God don't know where to begin, your post just about covers every single frustration and fear I have with PvP atm; Audacity is the one main reason why I'll not be going back to The Ettens.

I've played other MMOs for the PvP and from doing so realised that, for all of it's faults, The Ettens had one massive key feature that made it, again for all of its faults, imo the best PvP out there; there was NO PvP gearing. You could hit level, jump in and have a stab at things.

Yes, things have been majorly skewed in RoI and that did need to be addressed, but not like this, not in this fashion.

ZC, if you guys play other MMOs then maybe you should pause, re-level a new toon in RIft and then bring that toon into PvP; tell me how you fair against players who have the PvP gear; doesn't need to be Rift, can be any of them.

Please guys, don't make players suffer through two-years of this system before you man-up and admit it's a mistake. People can accept the loss of a 2,3-month grind undertaken as a consequence of a Developmental mistake if that mistake is caught and changed (yeah I know I'm going out on a limb with that statement) but dragging this out for longer?

Guys, to err is human, to forgive is Divine. Please fix this.

Personally I don't particularly care about the audacity system on freepside when compared to creepside. Overall it is an OK system but the way it was implemented seems like it wasn't very well thought out for us.

For freepside how come it can not just become a passive stat like it is on creepside. I say this because the stats on the overall gear in order to have that r7 audacity for all the classes seems a bit gimped and I'd rather mix and match armor that I have acquired through moors and pve content to get the most out of my character. I also don't like having the feeling that I am required to wear a specific armor set so that I can go out to the moors and have these so called "longer fights" that the devs claimed it would do.

To me, armor pieces shouldn't be forced upon us so that we can have the proper audacity points in order to have the same type of mitigations that the creeps get passively, even though I understand that creeps don't wear any armor in the first place and applying passive audacity is the only way to do it on creepside.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by cmash

Personally I don't particularly care about the audacity system on freepside when compared to creepside. Overall it is an OK system but the way it was implemented seems like it wasn't very well thought out for us.

For freepside how come it can not just become a passive stat like it is on creepside. I say this because the stats on the overall gear in order to have that r7 audacity for all the classes seems a bit gimped and I'd rather mix and match armor that I have acquired through moors and pve content to get the most out of my character. I also don't like having the feeling that I am required to wear a specific armor set so that I can go out to the moors and have these so called "longer fights" that the devs claimed it would do.

To me, armor pieces shouldn't be forced upon us so that we can have the proper audacity points in order to have the same type of mitigations that the creeps get passively, even though I understand that creeps don't wear any armor in the first place and applying passive audacity is the only way to do it on creepside.

Thoughts?

I'm not really a big fan of the Audacity system and certainly can understand the frustration on Freep side. The uncapping of the stats has made Freep DPS over the top in my opinion and instead of addressing it directly for PVP only Turbine came up with Audacity to "gimp" Freep stats on the Audacity Armour in order to bring the DPS down. At least that is my understanding and whether or not that is being accomplished or not I have no idea. All I do know is at R7 audacity I am surviving more and not being blown up in a few seconds.

If we threw out the Audacity system, Freep DPS would have to be scaled down so Creeps would have any chance of competing. This would of course cause issues in PVE, which I don't think anyone wants.

I've waited a long time before I replied to this just to give myself time to bed in.

In my opinion the moors are now the worst they have ever been. fights see faster rather than slower. I hear creeps talking about op freeps but thats not the experience i hear on freep ooc. its the opposite. i die in mile-seconds. my experience of the moors at the moment is bein totally gimped amd hoping for some scraps in amongst the endless deaths. pvp hasnt improved for anyone at all.

I spent a huge amount of time and about 100g grinding the previous armour set. yes 100g on items i needed to get the full set + hours of time. I cant afford to full time pvp, I pve raid and have a RL.

now im bk to square one ! with 1 audacity - yeh im grinding the new set, but is it fun, satisfying or enjoyable? does it make me reccommend lotro pvp to others - NO.

It's been 5 years ! no new map and now this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! C'mon guys whats is going on please.

Understand - you are not adding to our experience in pvp you are nerfing the fun. We want more, we will pay, we want fun, you have not delivered.

Man seriously...i have burned all of morale to have only dps to do some dmg which is mediocre and i still get hits like 3-4-4,5 dev crits.Whats the point for freeps having audacity?(-30%inc dmg)As if freep classes couldnt adjust themselves to perfectness now lets add a -30% dmg..Did that dev that decided that to even play a creep class?
But i know...as always things are being implemented on live servers and always creepside suffers..Creeps like always become a punching bags for freeps to test their skills and have fun
Audacity should available to creeps only and we all know why...

so...



Has any blue man replied to this ridiculous pvp-gating?

While you fix audacity, why not remove all coward skills of invisibility and running away? Wargs are pretty freakin lame in the tuck tail and run category as I've heard burglars are too so just remove the coward skill and make peeps fight. Stupid of me to suggest such a thing I know.




***and while i am speaking of complete lamness, could you please make the LM's inductions longer? I mean they should be longer since wargs can interrupt call of valour and parables right? No use making it difficult at all for them to kill solo LMs

Audacity: good idea, baaaaaad implementation. (especially freepside)

You know, until I started playing my warg in the moors I really bought into the creepside whining about how hard it was to get commendations. I have just gotten 7 audacity in 2 weeks (about an 1/8 of the comms came from playing my freep) on my warg. The map deeds give massive comms for far, far, far, far, far, far, far less pve than it took to get my champ to the moors in the first place.

Seriously, if I could deck out my freeps this quickly I would have so many more of them in the moors.

I read that audacity was intended to make it easier for new players, but the way Turbine has constructed the system - it's actually made it worse for them because the bonuses are still stacked in favor of people who have more audacity.

Originally I thought the way it would work is that a new player gets a defensive buff (or any kind of buff) until, hypothetically, rank 5 because at that point they have hopefully learned about the Moors and don't need it beyond that rank and have the appropriate gear, traits, etc.

But I guess not.

This really has got to be the worst 'development' for PvP ever. We've been struggling to keep our server alive for ages. All the high level creeps have left for GW2 and all the noob creeps we try to bring along have had enough after a few days. NVM though, the devs have just brought out a new horse and improved fishing....

Originally Posted by Gutterat

This really has got to be the worst 'development' for PvP ever. We've been struggling to keep our server alive for ages. All the high level creeps have left for GW2 and all the noob creeps we try to bring along have had enough after a few days. NVM though, the devs have just brought out a new horse and improved fishing....

PvP is the only thing this game severely lacks. Guild Wars 2 has some good PvP, but since players can jump into PvP as a max level character as soon as they start, it would get stale, and I am sure the creeps would return to see what is new with Rohan.

By then, hopefully Turbine would have fixed the current state of the moors and fixed audacity and balance.

Originally Posted by zalladi

PvP is the only thing this game severely lacks. Guild Wars 2 has some good PvP, but since players can jump into PvP as a max level character as soon as they start, it would get stale, and I am sure the creeps would return to see what is new with Rohan.

By then, hopefully Turbine would have fixed the current state of the moors and fixed audacity and balance.

They can, but they dont get all the skills you earn from PvE. You don't have to grind like this though. Theres 'structured pvp' like an arena 6 v 6, but the world PvP is something else. I doubt there wil be many returns....