Thread: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback: PvMP - Audacity

Originally Posted by Sezneg

Creeps will have to grind an equal number of points to earn their audacity as freep.

Further, freeps have asked for pvp sets that make them stronger in the moors... well here they are!

That entirely remains to be seen, currently some sets are mediocre while some sets are good. But they're all good for pvp since they add mitigation and vitality along with moderate amounts of the classes main stat.

Creeps need the damage reduction more than the CC reduction, and freeps don't really need much of either (although everyone benefits from cc reduction). But since one side is getting it, we get it too and whether it's good or not we'll have to rely on testers to find out. As a new 'stat' I'm sort of curious if it replaces set bonuses, since it's much easier to do that rather than make interesting sets with "pvp bonuses".

The only thing I'm even certain about is that since they acknowledged it's impossible to reward the higher ranks, they probably won't even try.

I believe it´s a good way of solving some of the problems of the Moors. Still, it will balance it out when freeps level up and will have to buy again their armor. A passive buy is a much, much better choice than an item buy. I guess this will balance some things out, though.

At last it doesn`t really matter, what they do now.

As long as they reward a stat like this *audacity* to both sides, all those rank farming toons that were around for the last few weeks and farmed their gear already will get this stat *4 free* - and will be as hard to beat as they were before.
Only way i see is they will make this new *audacity* set not tradeable for the old ettenmoore set, most of active freep player already farmed (PvE Raids on tyrants, u remember ?) ... or bought the needed items just from the ah.

Make a clean cut, let everybody start from the scratch. Really active PvPers willl farm this set in no time just by *duelling* another week, active mp`s will do likewise and in about 4 weeks we will have even more problems to fight those *bubble* champs (70% mit + audacity bonus *lol*) or those 4k dmg, 4k heal minis.

Sorry, Turbine, this train has left the station some months ago. U can`t try to balance anything with ranks, u gave some freep classes 4 free. Just try yourself and go out to the moors with a R4 -6 MP with no boughts skills. Have fun.

*waiting for GW2 aka DaoC 2"

Somewhat interesting idea but rather stupid that Freeps cant just get theyr Audacity off ranking but have to grind some gear after it also (Which btw if no stat-changes are being made totally SUCKS). I will personally not bother even trying this Audacity thing if you dont get rid of the useless stats on the PVP gear for certain classes.

PS. Turbine.. How many ideas are you actyally gonna copy over from SWTOR?

Originally Posted by Anoir

Somewhat interesting idea but rather stupid that Freeps cant just get theyr Audacity off ranking but have to grind some gear after it also (Which btw if no stat-changes are being made totally SUCKS). I will personally not bother even trying this Audacity thing if you dont get rid of the useless stats on the PVP gear for certain classes.

PS. Turbine.. How many ideas are you actyally gonna copy over from SWTOR?

Are you people even reading the thread?

It's really quite simple:

You get commendations from killing monster players.

You can only save up to 10k (may change) so when you have enough for some gear (freep) or a passive (creep) you should spend it and go out and PvP some more.

You barter these commendations for PvP armour pieces with +1 audacity.

You can only stack up to 7 audacity.

If you are a freep you will want to wear the new PvP armour for the + audacity it offers, however, you will not get the huge stacked stats your current PvE armor provides.

This is a good thing to balance the Moors, freeps stacking their main stats has been the major cause of the current imbalance.

Who knows if it will be enough of a nerf to minis and champs, maybe not, but it's a step in the right direction.

Audacity is a great idea to make the fights last longer and this will work well for small and medium group fights.... however it will probably create a problem for some 1v1's and large group fights.

Defilers take forever to 1v1 right now as an example and can win a fight by self healing and having the freep run out of power - but can you imagine this same defiler with Audacity?

Longer fights for large group fights will make power even more of an issue especially with the Wardleader Terror Banners and short cooldowns for Warleader Rezzes. Currently creeps can win large group fights with the freeps running out of power and simply outrezzing the freeps but this is balanced by freeps having greater DPS.

This balance will be thrown out with Audacity - so please look at nerfing the Warleader Terror Banner and increasing the Warleader cooldown on Rezzes...... otherwise it will turn into a fight where the creeps will just wait for freeps to run out of power and simply outrez the freeps.

Another thing I just realised.

If well are losing the delving stone barter system, then a creeps only way to aquire the equivalent moral and power pot to freeps is to spend their commendations.

Meanwhile the freeps can craft the top level pots or purchase them from the Auction House.

The creep delving power and moral pots should be moved and made for sale from the vendor for gold. Or Turbine is forcing creeps to spend their commendations on pots the freeps can just buy or craft.

P.s. They should also heal for a greater amount than the freep pots (because a 1300k heal on a freep is greater than a 1300k heal on a creep as a % of moral given) but that's probably another issue for another thread.

Originally Posted by Anirien

Audacity is a great idea to make the fights last longer and this will work well for small and medium group fights.... however it will probably create a problem for some 1v1's and large group fights.

Defilers take forever to 1v1 right now as an example and can win a fight by self healing and having the freep run out of power - but can you imagine this same defiler with Audacity?

Longer fights for large group fights will make power even more of an issue especially with the Wardleader Terror Banners and short cooldowns for Warleader Rezzes. Currently creeps can win large group fights with the freeps running out of power and simply outrezzing the freeps but this is balanced by freeps having greater DPS.

This balance will be thrown out with Audacity - so please look at nerfing the Warleader Terror Banner and increasing the Warleader cooldown on Rezzes...... otherwise it will turn into a fight where the creeps will just wait for freeps to run out of power and simply outrez the freeps.

Try killing a mini with any creep you like. It's a short fight because, unlike defilers, minis have huge DPS to go with them heals.

If creeps are winning the battle you just decribed by "outrezing" the freeps than the creeps are dying more and the freeps are getting more renown and commendations. The creeps may have the last man standing but who really 'wins'?

Also about power issues; play any creep class you like, they have greater power issues than freeps including smaller power pools and lower ICPR.

If you're playing a champ or a guard and getting stung by the WL terror banner than may I suggest you stack something other than Vit and might?

Problem solved.

Sure you won't crit as high or as often and you won't be rocking a 10K + moral pool but then that's the idea of these changes. It's your choice to build that way and you can live or die by it.

the idea is not bad gotta wait and c in real fight how it goes

BUT
why freeps only get audacity from pvmp armor
i mean i have a 75 gaurd i dont use pvmp armor coz i like the stats of other armor more
( orthanc OP armor )

i think it will be better if all the freeps armor have audacity not just the moors ( PVMP ) armor or make new armor with better stats for the freep side


./salute for working on the PVMP side of lotro

Originally Posted by ksjock

Are you people even reading the thread?

It's really quite simple:

You get commendations from killing monster players.

You can only save up to 10k (may change) so when you have enough for some gear (freep) or a passive (creep) you should spend it and go out and PvP some more.

You barter these commendations for PvP armour pieces with +1 audacity.

You can only stack up to 7 audacity.

If you are a freep you will want to wear the new PvP armour for the + audacity it offers, however, you will not get the huge stacked stats your current PvE armor provides.

This is a good thing to balance the Moors, freeps stacking their main stats has been the major cause of the current imbalance.

Who knows if it will be enough of a nerf to minis and champs, maybe not, but it's a step in the right direction.

I'm still not entirely convinced that getting Audacity gear will be worth it for freeps. Unless creeps finally get DPS boosts across the board that make them comparable to freeps, I just don't see a need for freeps to mitigate a little bit more damage. Consider especially heavy armor wearers, who may already be mitigating close to 70% of incoming damage - Audacity can't possibly give a significant bonus to those classes without making them nigh-invulnerable.

Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong, but I guess we really won't know until we see the stats on this gear and how it compares to the top-end PvE gear. If the PvP stats and set bonuses are underwhelming compared to the PvE gear, I'd imagine that many freeps just wouldn't even bother.

Oh, and regarding the macro-heavy Champ - I think I can guess who it was. I assume that you're talking about someone that hasn't played since last summer or so, and if so... he had so many macros that some of his regular letter keys were essentially disabled (re: he couldn't type some words because he'd bound macros to a few important letters).

Originally Posted by Lestache

Oh, and regarding the macro-heavy Champ - I think I can guess who it was. I assume that you're talking about someone that hasn't played since last summer or so, and if so... he had so many macros that some of his regular letter keys were essentially disabled (re: he couldn't type some words because he'd bound macros to a few important letters).

Yep we're on the same page here.

I didn't realise that he had macroed so much that he need a thesaurus to work around his word issues...Classic.

Funny thing was with his movement and skill rotations I don't think it was even necessary for him to go to that extreme. I'd say still in the top 3 champs ever on E without macros, but I guess we'll never know.

I want to know should i get the current PvMP lvl 75 armour set or should i save broches crests to be converted because there is going to be a new set that gives audacitiy?

Will the current set give audacity or a new one that comes with U6?

Originally Posted by ksjock

Are you people even reading the thread?

It's really quite simple:

You get commendations from killing monster players.

You can only save up to 10k (may change) so when you have enough for some gear (freep) or a passive (creep) you should spend it and go out and PvP some more.

You barter these commendations for PvP armour pieces with +1 audacity.

You can only stack up to 7 audacity.

If you are a freep you will want to wear the new PvP armour for the + audacity it offers, however, you will not get the huge stacked stats your current PvE armor provides.

This is a good thing to balance the Moors, freeps stacking their main stats has been the major cause of the current imbalance.

Who knows if it will be enough of a nerf to minis and champs, maybe not, but it's a step in the right direction.

Indeed I read it, you've come closet to the mark thus far as to why this is a good change. Its not great because you are assuming "a freep will want to wear the new PvP armour for the + audacity" and thats the part im not able to reconcile because we dont have a % number of the mititgation we will get on creepside.

If I get a 25% mitigation from the audacity stack why would a freep who can output thousands of points of morale damage want to wear the new armor? This is key question here. Since ROI damage output is the problem, PvP to fast? why's that? (rhetorical). So now I have a way to mitigate that damage, the problem is the disparity of damage is still way to high. Im getting 1k crits once about every 2 hours of game play, freeps on my server are getting crits of 3-5k once every 5-10 minutes.

Unless this stat dramatically increases the damage I can inflict why would a freep shed his raid armor that adds 300-500 for his primary stat? He wouldnt, he'd still go with the damage chance on the crit, thats the moors right now. It isnt about skill, slowing down the battle or raid vs raid, its about one side being able to do 5 times the damage the other can based on a % chance (a roll of the dice off a build spec, no skill needed)

This is a perfect enhancement in a world with a 1:1 comparative, that dosent exsist here. Its something though but unless damage is increased for creeps or this mitigation greatly reduces our damage taken, we'll be in the same place as we are now.

I don't think creep cc is effective enough for freeps to farm for gear to counter it. This new stat will proportionately weaken classes that rely heavily on cc burgs, wargs, loremasters and weavers. It may be fair to argue that burgs are very strong in pvp they can take this hit and still be effective. I am not so sure that reducing the effectiveness of the skills of the others is warranted. They do not appear to be overpowered classes but will "suffer" the most with the introduction of audacity. I think nullfying burst damage is more essential to make fights more competitive. Concerned about the implications for cc oriented classes.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm still not entirely convinced that getting Audacity gear will be worth it for freeps. Unless creeps finally get DPS boosts across the board that make them comparable to freeps, I just don't see a need for freeps to mitigate a little bit more damage. Consider especially heavy armor wearers, who may already be mitigating close to 70% of incoming damage - Audacity can't possibly give a significant bonus to those classes without making them nigh-invulnerable.

Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong, but I guess we really won't know until we see the stats on this gear and how it compares to the top-end PvE gear. If the PvP stats and set bonuses are underwhelming compared to the PvE gear, I'd imagine that many freeps just wouldn't even bother.

Oh, and regarding the macro-heavy Champ - I think I can guess who it was. I assume that you're talking about someone that hasn't played since last summer or so, and if so... he had so many macros that some of his regular letter keys were essentially disabled (re: he couldn't type some words because he'd bound macros to a few important letters).

@bolded part. No you arent looking at this wrong, you're observation is spot on.

Sounds good overall. Essentially this mechanic will reduce incoming damage, tone down CC and generally make action a bit slower all round.

However I hope there are a few changes to creep side specifically to address the current balance problem in the Moors'. This change affects both sides equally and won't bridge the gap between creeps and freeps.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

@bolded part. No you arent looking at this wrong, you're observation is spot on.

Hi again!

I wanna know the things you do because you can know for sure that he is spot on, it's remarkable!

I will not say that anyone are spot on or wrong becouse I don't know... I can speculate and I don't think Turbine Devs are realy that blind to not see that Audacity armors and the system in itself will be useless if freeps can use their PvE armor and still be OP.

Also not only freeps use Audacity, also creeps will be and with no cost of traits or corruptions, they will probably mitigate more damage wich also will lead to less peak hit's (2-3 shot kills)... Some are worried 1vs1 will be uneven with a Defiler who 'can outheal' or a mini who 'can DPS and outheal', some think this won't change a thing and some think this is something great for EM.

Again I will comment with 'I hope Devs know's what they are doing now, actually... To start a dev Diary about EM sounds to me that they are serious about fixing EM state' we know about this new map, skrim soldiers at field and Instance Finder 2.0 but nothing, we havent got those Dev diaries yet.
Should we beleave that they are doing these things just to annoy us? Do we realy think that all Testers @ Turbine don't know what they are doing?

Even though the concept seems interesting, this looks again like another bandage put over a wound. This will not fix any problem, it will create even more imbalance once the creeps will have their Audacity capped (if it is as good as it's supposed to be!). And this looks only like another trick to get people to buy commendation points through the store so they can buy Audacity points. If Turbines really wanted to fix the problem, they would increase the mitigations instead of creating a new stat.

Looks like Turbines doesn't learn from their past mistakes: Radiance to name one.

I definitely agree with the folk who have mentioned this should be a passive stat for freeps instead of armor based. For two reasons really -- I love the choices. Yes the PVP armor isn't what a lot of classes seem to want, but that's your choice, and it's -yet another- option of armor out there for you. Perhaps some of the implementations could use some work but I'd far rather see new pvp armor sets simply be other choices, ideally focusing on both different stats and different set bonuses that revolve around things like skill mods/adjustments. (for example I dig the 6 set bonus of the mini being able to brush off dots and such) That said another thing I like about the armor CHOICES, is that if I actually consider myself overpowered (my mini is my main out in the moors) I can CHOOSE to wear lesser armor. It also gives the folk who primarily PVP a reason to PVE outside of the moors -- ie they might have a set of armor from isengard that they really want to use in the moors so they go play that part of the game and come back out with their new set.

As for the seasons things, I'm going to remake a suggestion that I made a long time ago. Obviously lots of us are 'stale' on the ettenmoors map. And there was talk of a new map for RoI. I wouldn't be surprised of part of the issue with the new map is how to integrate it without upsetting the people who -like- the current ettenmoors map. Well, I'd like to suggest that you all (maybe not right this second but...) integrate some new maps into a rotation of sorts. In other words, each "season" moves where the battle is currently being fought. IE perhaps the Moors battle is not the current focus so for this season, we are all .. i dunno somewhere near isengard. lol. I'm not suggesting you all have to come up with new maps -each season- mind you, just have a rotation. Go ahead and introduce the seasons, try to have a new map ready for the -next- season, and if you have some spare time throw in some other maps, otherwise let it rotate between the new map and the moors until you can fit in a new map. That'll keep it so that we don't feel like you are taking away our old school moors map, but also giving us something new. It also solves the problem of how do you deal with 2+ pvmp maps. ('cause you'll end up having an empty moors and a full .. notmoors .. otherwise, or you'll punt the moors map we've all grown up with)

Just throwing this in as I think about it -- at the end of a season you could even throw in a "someone wins" for now thing. IE whichever side has the largest control of the map at the end of a season might gain some sort of --very minor but cute-- boon for the next season. (I'm stressing very minor 'cause it would suck to have one side keep winning and therefore making it even harder to beat them next season) Heck, could even be something like a 1% increase in commendation gain. "You guys did good last (season?), bonus commendations!"

Originally Posted by thejadestorm

I definitely agree with the folk who have mentioned this should be a passive stat for freeps instead of armor based. For two reasons really -- I love the choices. Yes the PVP armor isn't what a lot of classes seem to want, but that's your choice, and it's -yet another- option of armor out there for you. Perhaps some of the implementations could use some work but I'd far rather see new pvp armor sets simply be other choices, ideally focusing on both different stats and different set bonuses that revolve around things like skill mods/adjustments. (for example I dig the 6 set bonus of the mini being able to brush off dots and such) That said another thing I like about the armor CHOICES, is that if I actually consider myself overpowered (my mini is my main out in the moors) I can CHOOSE to wear lesser armor. It also gives the folk who primarily PVP a reason to PVE outside of the moors -- ie they might have a set of armor from isengard that they really want to use in the moors so they go play that part of the game and come back out with their new set.

Sigh, yet another Freep who wants to have his cake and eat it too.

Your side is too powerful now.

You need a nerf but a it must be a nerf that leaves PvE alone.

You, it seems, are getting this nerf.

Deal with it.

There is no way that audacity will be given as a passive to Freeps because it would defeat the purpose of introducing it in the first place.

Originally Posted by ksjock

Sigh, yet another Freep who wants to have his cake and eat it too.

Your side is too powerful now.

You need a nerf but a it must be a nerf that leaves PvE alone.

You, it seems, are getting this nerf.

Deal with it.

There is no way that audacity will be given as a passive to Freeps because it would defeat the purpose of introducing it in the first place.

Oh believe me, I am all for a nerf. My mini is far too powerful. (plus I play creep quite a bit as well) I just don't like the lack of customization. I'd actually prefer more customization creepside as well but one step at a time.

If we -are- going to need to change armor to come out to the moors, could we perhaps get a vault in GV? Of course I would LOVE to see a creep vault in grams as well but again, one step at a time. Creeps like storing things too!!! (and of course shared storage would be nice...) But the latter doesn't have anything directly to do with these new changes.

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

Hi again!

I wanna know the things you do because you can know for sure that he is spot on, it's remarkable!

I will not say that anyone are spot on or wrong becouse I don't know... I can speculate and I don't think Turbine Devs are realy that blind to not see that Audacity armors and the system in itself will be useless if freeps can use their PvE armor and still be OP.

Also not only freeps use Audacity, also creeps will be and with no cost of traits or corruptions, they will probably mitigate more damage wich also will lead to less peak hit's (2-3 shot kills)... Some are worried 1vs1 will be uneven with a Defiler who 'can outheal' or a mini who 'can DPS and outheal', some think this won't change a thing and some think this is something great for EM.

Again I will comment with 'I hope Devs know's what they are doing now, actually... To start a dev Diary about EM sounds to me that they are serious about fixing EM state' we know about this new map, skrim soldiers at field and Instance Finder 2.0 but nothing, we havent got those Dev diaries yet.
Should we beleave that they are doing these things just to annoy us? Do we realy think that all Testers @ Turbine don't know what they are doing?

I'll reply in the spirit in which I believe your post is meant.

No U

Please add Audacity to Freep PvP Jewelry too (while still cap it at 7)

So that we can decide PvP Armor and PvE Jewelry or the other way round

Sometimes an Armor Set has a great bonus and sometimes it´s trash, so please allow for more customization

Soooo.... Lotro's pvp is trying to become like WoW's..... hmmm

Bottom line is this is a brilliant balancing tool. I AGREE that it may force freeps to use the PvP armor, but I think that is the point. Balance will be far easier to work with if Turbine can choose what gear a pvper will wear. For those seeking customability: creeps have none. I think that after this is first released everyone will be using the same armor, but if this works I also see several different sets springing up in the future. maybe RoR will have 3 new sets per class that each cater toward a specific traitline? Possibilities are endless but you have to first give it a chance. Freeps will still be FAR more customizable than creeps. You still have LIs, jewellery etc. Not to mention this is going to lessen the PvE grind needed for PvP dedicated freeps. If they found a way to implement LIs that could only be used and leveled in the moors PvE could be almost seperate. Seperation = Balance.

Originally Posted by KingOfBlackarrows

If they found a way to implement LIs that could only be used and leveled in the moors PvE could be almost seperate. Seperation = Balance.

That..

I´d vote for Moors-only LIs that level with you

Meaning no regrind all the time, after all moors are there to PvP

Make 3rd Age require Rank 0, 2nd Age R5 and 1st Age R10

Cool, great to see so many updates!...
but any details on new map?

Originally Posted by KingOfBlackarrows

Bottom line is this is a brilliant balancing tool. I AGREE that it may force freeps to use the PvP armor, but I think that is the point. Balance will be far easier to work with if Turbine can choose what gear a pvper will wear. For those seeking customability: creeps have none. I think that after this is first released everyone will be using the same armor, but if this works I also see several different sets springing up in the future. maybe RoR will have 3 new sets per class that each cater toward a specific traitline? Possibilities are endless but you have to first give it a chance. Freeps will still be FAR more customizable than creeps. You still have LIs, jewellery etc. Not to mention this is going to lessen the PvE grind needed for PvP dedicated freeps. If they found a way to implement LIs that could only be used and leveled in the moors PvE could be almost seperate. Seperation = Balance.

At the risk of belaboring my point, I really don't think that it'll force freeps (at least not heavy armor wearers) into using the PvP gear - if the PvP gear is inferior to the PvE gear in other regards: stats and set bonuses being the main concerns (and if creep damage isn't scaled up much at all).

Again, keeping in mind that we don't have the numbers on the gear or the actual amount that Audacity will mitigate, but I'm operating on the assumption that Audacity won't be that significant of a mitigation...

I'm a Champ main. Would I rather have some creep hitting me for 5% less damage in exchange for me doing 10% less damage? Absolutely not. What do I care if I get hit for 380 instead of 400 (again, numbers made up)?

Now, creeps could definitely use a mitigation boost, and maybe the light/medium armor wearers will find that Audacity is helpful (or even necessary), but given the already high mitigation levels of the heavies, I just don't see Audacity making that much of a difference to them.

Anyway, I'll shut up about that until we can actually do some testing.

----------------

On another note...

Given some of the comments in this thread and the Commendations thread, I almost feel like the PvMP players are in a bad marriage with Turbine. They've been asking for more attention for quite some time, but when they get it it's nothing at all like what they were asking for. It's like a wife who has been asking her husband to spend more time with her, so he buys her some knitting supplies so she can sit there and knit while he watches football. Sure, he tried to address her concern, but he did so in a way that she wasn't asking for and probably doesn't appreciate.

(To be fair - I think that the devs are trying, and probably doing the best they can within whatever constraints that they've been given. I can't imagine that a dev decided that a new PvP currency and "seasonal" changes were what PvMP needed, but it was the developers stuck with the task of implementing the changes and trying to convince the players that the changes will address their concerns.)

Originally Posted by Aedfrith

Way to nerf hunters still *further*. I do hope we get some survivability to compensate, but I hold out little faith.

Maybe you should talk to hunters on my server about survivability and feeling "nerfed", they will laugh at you and call you noob.......not me though, I'm sympathic to your lack of class

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

In a balanced world this is a great solution, we don’t have a balanced world. For some reason I cant fathom, they don’t seem to understand this. While offensive, this is the closest thing to that omission “The damage changes in the last expansion were good for the game, but have made PvMP go a little too fast.” Little to fast = damage output to high and no ability to mitigate it. So what do we have here, a way to mitigate the damage. It works in theory, if we were outputting the same damage.

The idea is not to balance freeps and creeps directly.

The idea is to prevent the use of pvp and pve armor sets for "different" purposes than they were designed for, by introducing a gate mechanism for freeps in pvp. It is only a move to separate the two freep worlds so that freeps that pvp are forced to use specific gear or learn gear swap macro fu.

By making it traited for creeps and itemized for freeps, this means all creeps will have it, making it in turn mandatory for freeps, which leaves creep/freep balance exactly at the same spot as before (you are right!) but creates a clear separation between pvp and pve armor. Freep pve armor will be less usable in pvp with this new stat, I am guessing the % will provide a strong incentive considering they bothered to introduce a new stat just for this.

To repeat: the issue is not freep/creep balance, although that seems to polarize the thread, first because it is a real problem to balance classes in every mmo game (it is an impossible problem to solve); second on every mmo with pvp the forums are so crowded by different sides trying to influence the nerf bat towards the other that it becomes hard to be objective.

With ROI, Turbine gave freeps pvp armor sets that were more defensive, no one used them because the roi raid sets were more offensive and better, moors became impossible to play because freep dps was sky high, Turbine tried to solve it through mitigations but failed and we had ~mmo drama~. Now they are adding a new stat to sort it out. It's clumsy but simple.

I hope it works, it does pave the way for new pvp content every 6 months, don't think it will be much of a grind since all we do is kill each other anyway, don't really like the way Turbine adds new stats every 6 months, a bit immersion breaking and doesn't seem elegant to me but ... :care:

here we go again... the new "Radiance" ... not sure if i'm saying this sarcastically or if i'm serious yet... but the fear remains. basically because it could force freeps into cookie cutter builds again. we hate cookie cutter builds. all i have to say is this: there better be at least 4 different armour sets per class with audacity stats on them. i don't use the PvP gear for two reasons: 1: it's always been vastly inferior compared to PvE gear. ( even at the lower level caps ) and 2: i've never grinded out the rank to wear it because of reason number 1.

Originally Posted by Aravaethil

The idea is not to balance freeps and creeps directly.

The idea is to prevent the use of pvp and pve armor sets for "different" purposes than they were designed for, by introducing a gate mechanism for freeps in pvp. It is only a move to separate the two freep worlds so that freeps that pvp are forced to use specific gear or learn gear swap macro fu.

By making it traited for creeps and itemized for freeps, this means all creeps will have it, making it in turn mandatory for freeps, which leaves creep/freep balance exactly at the same spot as before (you are right!) but creates a clear separation between pvp and pve armor. Freep pve armor will be less usable in pvp with this new stat, I am guessing the % will provide a strong incentive considering they bothered to introduce a new stat just for this.

To repeat: the issue is not freep/creep balance, although that seems to polarize the thread, first because it is a real problem to balance classes in every mmo game (it is an impossible problem to solve); second on every mmo with pvp the forums are so crowded by different sides trying to influence the nerf bat towards the other that it becomes hard to be objective.

With ROI, Turbine gave freeps pvp armor sets that were more defensive, no one used them because the roi raid sets were more offensive and better, moors became impossible to play because freep dps was sky high, Turbine tried to solve it through mitigations but failed and we had ~mmo drama~. Now they are adding a new stat to sort it out. It's clumsy but simple.

I hope it works, it does pave the way for new pvp content every 6 months, don't think it will be much of a grind since all we do is kill each other anyway, don't really like the way Turbine adds new stats every 6 months, a bit immersion breaking and doesn't seem elegant to me but ... :care:

Your logic dosent answer one very important question. Why would a freep who is doing 5-7 times the amount of damage due to their crits from their stats give that up? Nothing here is suggesting they must wear the new armor, the only logic answer is you believe creep damage will be increased to the point where they have to have audacity slotted to 7.

Thats a very big assumption, I dont think its an accurate one as I have seen very little in the way of offical word that damage output will be brought into line. Again, this change is great in a symetrical world, we arent in one thats the problem people seem to forget. So a freep is going to drop his raid gear that gives him 500+ on his primary damage stat to increase his mitigation of a 1100 shadow damage crit?

I dont think so, I think he is going to continue to gamble on the 4-7k devestating crit he gets with his raid gear and take his chances with my damage. Its not like he cant already mitigate some of it now anyway.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Your logic dosent answer one very important question. Why would a freep who is doing 5-7 times the amount of damage due to their crits from their stats give that up? Nothing here is suggesting they must wear the new armor, the only logic answer is you believe creep damage will be increased to the point where they have to have audacity slotted to 7.

Remember that if a Freep decides to forgo PvP armor 100% of a creeps audacity effect will be a buff vs what we have now. How much we won't know till U6 goes live.

Further thought, in the beginning of the season, when creep audacity is low (either right after U6 or after a renormalization) will freep PvE gear go back to dominating the Moors with the effect being washed out as the season goes on and both sides gear up with audacity or will there be some way to balance the audacity lite periods at the beginning of each season or am I misunderstanding how things will work from season to season?

Edit: Turbin did say that the effects of Audacity at R0 would be meaningful so that may be the answer the questions about what happens at the beginning of the season.

Originally Posted by BadgerB

Remember that if a Freep decides to forgo PvP armor 100% of a creeps audacity effect will be a buff vs what we have now. How much we won't know till U6 goes live.

Further thought, in the beginning of the season, when creep audacity is low (either right after U6 or after a renormalization) will freep PvE gear go back to dominating the Moors with the effect being washed out as the season goes on and both sides gear up with audacity or will there be some way to balance the audacity lite periods at the beginning of each season or am I misunderstanding how things will work from season to season?

Im not disputing its a good thing for creep damage output if the freep dosent wear the gear but until we know what the impact is, its not entirely genuine to call it a wash. We know what freep/creep damage output is now so that is the comparative we have. Unless the dev comes back and tells us that the math works and freeps will want the armor because the damage they are recieving is to high we are still in the same place.

The seasonal thing really dosent make a whole lot of sense to me, frankly it looks ridiculous. Again, its moving in the right direction but the word we have on damage that sticks out in my mind is the offensive comment by a dev "The damage changes in the last expansion were good for the game, but have made PvMP go a little too fast.”

yuk,yuk, sorry your pvp was #### the last 2 months and you died in 5 seconds, yuk, yuk.

Originally Posted by Lestache

On another note...

Given some of the comments in this thread and the Commendations thread, I almost feel like the PvMP players are in a bad marriage with Turbine. They've been asking for more attention for quite some time, but when they get it it's nothing at all like what they were asking for. It's like a wife who has been asking her husband to spend more time with her, so he buys her some knitting supplies so she can sit there and knit while he watches football. Sure, he tried to address her concern, but he did so in a way that she wasn't asking for and probably doesn't appreciate.

(To be fair - I think that the devs are trying, and probably doing the best they can within whatever constraints that they've been given. I can't imagine that a dev decided that a new PvP currency and "seasonal" changes were what PvMP needed, but it was the developers stuck with the task of implementing the changes and trying to convince the players that the changes will address their concerns.)

Yep...guess we wait to see if this actually gets implemented as intended...we know how that goes too...

Much change is being implemented, it is difficult standing here to see what will happen over there.

This is another announcement. We have yet to see the whole picture. People are miffed about dp's but its time to wait for turbine to play their whole hand here. Many of us have asked for a major rebuild.. hmm

The moors is evolving, lets see where it goes, for the moment we are left : -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7jSp2xmmEE&ob=av2e

Originally Posted by Oldwiley

Much change is being implemented, it is difficult standing here to see what will happen over there.

This is another announcement. We have yet to see the whole picture. People are miffed about dp's but its time to wait for turbine to play their whole hand here. Many of us have asked for a major rebuild.. hmm

The moors is evolving, lets see where it goes, for the moment we are left : -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7jSp2xmmEE&ob=av2e

Never mind

i find it just a little more than coincidental that swtor launches and two months later we're getting 'commendations' and 'audacity' which work just like 'commendations' and 'expertise' in swtor's pvp.

It is possible the dev's have been over there trying their pvp as they had broken ours so badly >.<