Thema: Update 6: Developer Diary Feedback: PvMP - Audacity

Increasing ranks of Audacity will reduce incoming damage and crowd control durations while in the Ettenmoors. Freeps and Creeps will spend Commendations to improve their Audacity, though in different ways. Read more about Audacity in the latest Developer Diary from Brian "Zombie Columbus" Aloisio and post your comments here!

Interesting idea, but until creep damage and CC actually significantly impact freeps, I'd imagine that gear with Audacity will be largely ignored by freeps - especially if the gear is generally worse stat-wise than PvE gear.

Sounds good.

I do have to mention that somehow, I always get the feeling that dev diaries are too short.

Just when I think you're introducing me in to the subject BAM! , the dev diary is over.

I still don't get what you mean with this " Seasons mechanic " .

With Update 6, the War panel will have some cosmetic updates as well as a place for the new Audacity trait.

Could you please elaborate a little more on this ?

Combat pacing is the single largest problem in the moors.

If you successfully fix it, the quality of the pvp will be hugely improved.

So many issues are fixed just by slowing things back down...

1. Reduces the overall contribution of certain cooldowns, meaning they are still useful and powerful but do not by themselves win a fight.
2. Less DPS race, more actual combat.
3. Much better scaling of fights as more players become involved.

This is a very good development.

The CC reduction is icing on the cake.

I don't understand this:

Freeps acquire their Audacity ranks through itemization. The new PvMP armor sets will each have +1 Audacity and will exclusively cost Commendations. Later updates may include Audacity on additional item slots, but for now the basic six armour slots are the only places the stat will appear. When a new season starts, gear with higher Audacity will become available.


So Creeps won't need to grind for their Audacity, and it comes as a passive trait, but freeps do need to grind for their audacity and we get pigeonholed into a specific set of armor in order to make full use of it? Why can't we just make is a passive bonus for freeps and creeps, tie it to rank to reward Veteran players (there is very little incentive for veteran creeps anymore), and make it so once you buy it, you've bought it and it's on you permanently or until it's available to be upgraded again.

So Audacity is like resilience from the other game that i wont name...

Zitat von Regero

So Creeps won't need to grind for their Audacity, and it comes as a passive trait, but freeps do need to grind for their audacity and we get pigeonholed into a specific set of armor in order to make full use of it? Why can't we just make is a passive bonus for freeps and creeps, tie it to rank to reward Veteran players (there is very little incentive for veteran creeps anymore), and make it so once you buy it, you've bought it and it's on you permanently or until it's available to be upgraded again.

No. No.

Both freeps and creeps get Audacity with Commendations.

The difference is that freeps trade their Commendations for armour, and creeps for a passive trait.

Creep's Audacity Rank is not linked to the Infamy Rank.

hmm nice idea. But now dps of creeps is too low, and we deal very low dmg to compare some freeps. So with U6 our damge will be inceresed?

Zitat von Regero

So Creeps won't need to grind for their Audacity, and it comes as a passive trait, but freeps do need to grind for their audacity and we get pigeonholed into a specific set of armor in order to make full use of it? Why can't we just make is a passive bonus for freeps and creeps, tie it to rank to reward Veteran players (there is very little incentive for veteran creeps anymore), and make it so once you buy it, you've bought it and it's on you permanently or until it's available to be upgraded again.

Creeps will have just as much grinding, we'll both be spending commendations to improve this stat.

Yes, if you want to have audacity you will be pigeonholed into pvp armor (many players have been asking for pvp focused armor, here it is!). Kind of reigns in some of the build freedom introduced in ROI (this might be a feature, not a bug as balancing things out based on the many builds available post ROI is not an easy thing).

Sure you're pigeonholed... but so are creeps. Makes balancing things a lot easier when you know what each side is going to end up around statwise. A lot of the problems in RoI era pvp probably stem from the developer's assumptions that freeps would build more defensively for the moors (see the pvp sets), but clearly quite the opposite has happened.

Be interesting to see how this gear looks stat-wise.

Zitat von Lestache

Interesting idea, but until creep damage and CC actually significantly impact freeps, I'd imagine that gear with Audacity will be largely ignored by freeps - especially if the gear is generally worse stat-wise than PvE gear.

I strongly disagree. I think this is what they meant when they said they see PvP gear as "more of a necessity than an achievement". You will need this gear which is awesome, I've always been bugged that the PvP gear isn't even that great in PvP for most classes. Finally we actually need PvP gear to PvP! I'm not sure what you mean by Creep DPS anyways, the 2 significant DPS classes on Creep side - BAs and Reavers - do good damage. If I can reduce incoming damage and CC by a significant amount there is no amount of stats (practically) that can make up for that.

I think you are going to be at a serious disadvantage if you choose not to take advantage of Audacity. Sounds like a great mechanic, the Moors really needs to be slowed down and we really need to use PvP armor in PvP.

Who knows, maybe this gear will have lower stats, enough to reduce our damage output and morale by a good chunk? This is an interesting way that they could level out Creeps and Freeps a little bit.

Seems to me that you've nailed the major issues with the Moors currently. Obviously we don't know for sure how well the changes will affect them, but reading the plans I'm going to be fairly optimistic.

Your going to force me to wear PvP armour. Which is never better than raid gear, has usefull set bonuses for only 1 or 2 classes, and never gets updated with expansions. Indirect nerf to freeps. Make it a passive just like creeps.

It's hard to look at this without making comparisons to SWTOR's expertise.

That said, I like it. Less CC and less damage make for longer, more interesting fights. That said...there has to be a better word than "Audacity" for this type of stat.

Zitat von Theandil

hmm nice idea. But now dps of creeps is too low, and we deal very low dmg to compare some freeps. So with U6 our damge will be inceresed?

This is what I'm seeing as well. If the benefits of audacity are going to be made significant enough to protect creeps from freep DPS, but you then mirror the effects for freeps... Creeps will be in the same position as before in terms of CC and damage.

So are creeps in general going to see a boost somewhere else?

Zitat von thunderchickn

Reavers - do good damage.

So will something keep the freeps from swapping gear from time to time to gain effects not present in PvP gear?

This sounds good (albeit too late, GW2 *.*), my biggest concern is the low ranked creeps, even with Audacity they will still be blow up by all freeps (excluding lvl 40's maybe)

EDIT: didn't read the part about Seasons (too little info btw :P), although it still leaves me with some concern for greenies, it seems a step in the right direction

Zitat von n3xxus

Your going to force me to wear PvP armour. Which is never better than raid gear, has usefull set bonuses for only 1 or 2 classes, and never gets updated with expansions. Indirect nerf to freeps. Make it a passive just like creeps.

No one's going to force you to wear it, but the defense bonuses of Moors armor via PvMP-only Audacity will make it viable without letting PvE-only players cry about needing to go to the Moors to get the "best" armour.

But since they're currently planning on capping Audacity at 7, I think they should go ahead and put it on jewelry as well, that way we have more options for capping out. Maybe gear that still requires rank could have more to higher-ranked freeps get even more flexibility as their reward.

Zitat von Arvaen

This is what I'm seeing as well. If the benefits of audacity are going to be made significant enough to protect creeps from freep DPS, but you then mirror the effects for freeps... Creeps will be in the same position as before in terms of CC and damage.

So are creeps in general going to seeing a boost somewhere else?

One thing to bear in mind is that ALL creeps will get at least some Audacity on principle(a sizeable amount from R1 if I read correctly). Freeps on the other hand will require PvP gear, which obviously not all of them wear. Presumably many more will after U6 hits, but I don't see the majority of freeps walking around with full sets at any point.

This seems like a good idea to me. I hope audacity will help to increase the benefit of ranking up, it might help to bolster creeps against freep damage, if implemented properly.

Zitat von Nyrion

One thing to bear in mind is that ALL creeps will get at least some Audacity on principle(a sizeable amount from R1 if I read correctly). Freeps on the other hand will require PvP gear, which obviously not all of them wear. Presumably many more will after U6 hits, but I don't see the majority of freeps walking around with full sets at any point.

Freeps will ALSO get a good bit from rank 1 for free (you will gain this automatically at level 40).

Zitat von Arvaen

This is what I'm seeing as well. If the benefits of audacity are going to be made significant enough to protect creeps from freep DPS, but you then mirror the effects for freeps... Creeps will be in the same position as before in terms of CC and damage.

So are creeps in general going to see a boost somewhere else?

It sounds like this will open a window (by "slowing things down") for actual tactics to come into play. Creeps are theoretically supposed to have a number/expendability advantage over Freeps. Simply lowering the travel-time-to-death ratio will help Creeps out.

In theory.

I don't mpvp on either side because it always amounts to spending the vast majority of the time just running across the landscape to whereever the zerg is, then as soon as there's any action I'm lagged-rooted-dead in a matter of seconds.

Zitat von Moondog548

It sounds like this will open a window (by "slowing things down") for actual tactics to come into play. Creeps are theoretically supposed to have a number/expendability advantage over Freeps. Simply lowering the travel-time-to-death ratio will help Creeps out.

In theory.

That was the theory. Years ago. When they didn't realize how many people would involve themselves in PvMP. But somewhere along the line, someone realized that it's bad idea to make individuals on one side inherently weaker.

The design today is suppose to be 1:1.

Zitat von Sezneg

Freeps will ALSO get a good bit from rank 1 for free (you will gain this automatically at level 40).

Ah yeah, you're right. My mistake.

So, Let me get this straight.
Freepies and Creepies hit rank 7 in Audacity.

New season starts.

If Freeps hit lv 85, old gear is stat terribad, and they need to buy all 6 new pieces.

New season starts freeps are still lv 85.
They now need to aquire new pvmp gear for all 6 slots

In both cases creeps just need to get the next level worth.

So unless the next level for creeps costs the same as a full set of armor for freeps, i dont see how this in any way works.

Terrible idea.

Also will really make new people unlikely to come out to the moors. That season's piece they ear will not be worth much at all if they earn it at the end of a season.

Just make it a passive stat for freeps and creeps.

They needed a name which tied in with Commendations. Sadly, the best they could come up with is Audacity. Suggest a better name quickly! I don't have one!

While this new stat sounds great for creeps, giving it in mirrored amounts makes the idea unfortunate for those same creeps. Good news for creeps, it's permanent. Whoo yeah. Bad news, the freeps get it too (which is fine except for) with their overwhelming damage and crowd control superiority.

I like how it goes on to basically say "There will be power creep with this stat." or maybe "We will be giving people who PvMP more advantage. Deal with it."

Result: Undecided. Hopeful but irritated.

Zitat von ararax2

So, Let me get this straight.
Freepies and Creepies hit rank 7 in Audacity.

New season starts.

If Freeps hit lv 85, old gear is stat terribad, and they need to buy all 6 new pieces.

New season starts freeps are still lv 85.
They now need to aquire new pvmp gear for all 6 slots

In both cases creeps just need to get the next level worth.

So unless the next level for creeps costs the same as a full set of armor for freeps, i dont see how this in any way works.

Terrible idea.

Also will really make new people unlikely to come out to the moors. That season's piece they ear will not be worth much at all if they earn it at the end of a season.

Just make it a passive stat for freeps and creeps.

Ooooops.

Looks like yet another reason that jumping 10 levels (instead of, say, 5) is a silly thing to do.

Zitat von Lenton

It's hard to look at this without making comparisons to SWTOR's expertise.

That said, I like it. Less CC and less damage make for longer, more interesting fights. That said...there has to be a better word than "Audacity" for this type of stat.

I think audacity is an accurate word when you think of Turbine and its treatment of customers. Relic scrolls, DP perks, community representatives, promise of more transparent communication and the list goes on and on encompassing every area of the game from crafting to PvP.

The new mechanic sounds interesting and will hopefully breath life into a dieing aspect of the game which badly needs this attention. I'm sure this mechanic will be excellent considering we have seen 3 dev diaries from 3 different Dev's showing the number of people working on the project, but after an update or two giving past precedents will we be back in the same boat? Freeps shooting fish in the barrel for fun.

"Crowd Control effects are also still highly potent despite the diminishing returns system."

Not quite sure how you can justify calling CC too potent while at the same time giving wargs a new perma-root skill.



"The bonuses that Audacity grants will then be re-distributed so that the new max rank provides the same defense bonuses the old max rank did." "...providing ample advancement opportunities to veteran players!"

So the plan is to seasonally nerf our existing gear into the ground and force us to grind out new gear just to get back to our old level of effectiveness; then you go on to claim that this is somehow providing advancement? That's just a sick, cruel joke. I'd rather grind radiance gear again.

I feel like TB is making the same mistake with Audacity as they did with radiance for the freep side. Making a stat so valuable for pvp that your effectivity goes down dramatically if you are not wearing that armour is really a bad thing. I think choice is a big part of itemisation and thus I want to be allowed to combine gear into multiple usefull combinations instead of a single pvp armour. Switch the Audicaty to a passive stat and these downsides will be gone.

Choice, it's all about having options

Zitat von Yosoff

Not quite sure how you can justify calling CC too potent while at the same time giving wargs a new perma-root skill.

During which the target can still fight back and the warg can do absolutely nothing without support. If there's enough support that close by, the target should probably die anyway.

This is also assuming the warg is in "flayer" stance (hate the name), thereby foregoing stealth.

All I see is a casual or new pvp'er is incredibly disadvanted in the moors. Making audacity tied to gear for the freeps makes it pretty much a requirement. So on top of grinding pve gear, weapons, traits, we now have to grind for yet more gear. I'm a casual pvp'er, think I'll leave it to those whose play time is primarily pvp.

Audacity should be a passive for freeps as well.

In a balanced world this is a great solution, we don’t have a balanced world. For some reason I cant fathom, they don’t seem to understand this. While offensive, this is the closest thing to that omission “The damage changes in the last expansion were good for the game, but have made PvMP go a little too fast.” Little to fast = damage output to high and no ability to mitigate it. So what do we have here, a way to mitigate the damage. It works in theory, if we were outputting the same damage.

Here’s the exception: freeps will have to wear the gear to get the mitigation and that, indirectly increases the ability to damage the freep player. As the dev says:

Reduce incoming player damage by a multiplicative percentage.

Damage * Mitigations * Audacity = Damage Dealt
Reduces the duration of Crowd Control effects
Mod that reduces the duration (stun, fear, root, daze) by a percentage.

This helps creeps, it’s a needed buff and somewhat addresses the issues ive brought up in the past. If the freep player dosent use the armor they don’t get the abilty to mitigate my 465 shadow damage (that’s on a crit), they have to rely on whatever other goodies are provided for them via their builds or the lvl 85 stuff to come. Per the formula above if the freep dosent have audacity on his armor I should be hitting harder (If I have audacity ranked on my passives)

It’s half a solution and its better then nothing at all. If I am at lvl 7 audacity and am outputting 1k damage and a freep is outputting 7k at the same 7 audacity then my audacity mitigations have to be 7 times higher to account for the disparity in damage output.

The diary lacks specificity on this point (unless I missed it, highly likely). So we are back to where we were prior, freep damage output remains to high. Damage output still needs to be addressed for the creepside if they truly want balance. Yes this will make fights longer, its going to take me longer to die as that 5k crit isnt going to do as much damage but it still should be much higher damage then what I can output at 1k crits on a very good day. While morale is a fair argument to make in counter, we are going to have to see how much mitigation we get here. If I can mitigate 25% of a 5k crit Im still taking a 3750k morale hit. The same freep takes 750 morale on my 1 k crit making his damage value 5x higher then mine.

Unless there is a bump in morale to go with it, it dosent work. A nice attempt at a fix, but only applicable in a world already balanced. Enjoy your game play.

Im just glad some attention is being given to PvMP . Hopefully the changes that are coming will make things better out there for everyone.

Yeah.. what Rothardan said

Zitat von thunderchickn

I'm not sure what you mean by Creep DPS anyways, the 2 significant DPS classes on Creep side - BAs and Reavers - do good damage..

Zitat von Moondog548

Creeps are theoretically supposed to have a number/expendability advantage over Freeps.

Thats a common myth

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?442491-PVMP-Myth

Zitat von Kelsan

Hey all,

I wanted to answer a specific question:
Q. Balance - Are you trying to create more parity between Creeps and Freeps?
A. Yes - as Jalessa said - the initial design of the many vs few is not something we are continuing. The Creeps will be more in-line with Freeps without making them exact copies.

Thank you for nerfing burgs who only rely on stun-daze locking! I look forward to longer fights.

Zitat von Regero

So Creeps won't need to grind for their Audacity, and it comes as a passive trait, but freeps do need to grind for their audacity and we get pigeonholed into a specific set of armor in order to make full use of it? Why can't we just make is a passive bonus for freeps and creeps, tie it to rank to reward Veteran players (there is very little incentive for veteran creeps anymore), and make it so once you buy it, you've bought it and it's on you permanently or until it's available to be upgraded again.

Why?

This is why:



Any further questions?

Zitat von Arvaen

That was the theory. Years ago. When they didn't realize how many people would involve themselves in PvMP. But somewhere along the line, someone realized that it's bad idea to make individuals on one side inherently weaker.

The design today is suppose to be 1:1.

Zitat von PurebloodWorg

Thats a common myth

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?442491-PVMP-Myth

well consider me enlightened! thanks.

So it's not much of a balancing factor. Still a good thing in general, as folks are saying.

Zitat von PurebloodWorg

Thats a common myth

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?442491-PVMP-Myth

The concept has changed, but not the reality

Zitat von Sezneg

Creeps will have just as much grinding, we'll both be spending commendations to improve this stat.
Yes, if you want to have audacity you will be pigeonholed into pvp armor (many players have been asking for pvp focused armor, here it is!). Kind of reigns in some of the build freedom introduced in ROI (this might be a feature, not a bug as balancing things out based on the many builds available post ROI is not an easy thing).

Sure you're pigeonholed... but so are creeps. Makes balancing things a lot easier when you know what each side is going to end up around statwise. A lot of the problems in RoI era pvp probably stem from the developer's assumptions that freeps would build more defensively for the moors (see the pvp sets), but clearly quite the opposite has happened.

Agree.

re:stats - my assumption to go in line with the slowing down combat, it will be more balance morale/dps, which some of the min/max people won't like. Though related to the gear swap macros in another thread...we'll see ranged/stealth classes start in max/dps gear then swap into audacity gear when they start to take hits (should institute delay in gear swap to alleviate this).

Zitat von doug01

The concept has changed, but not the reality

True. The numbers game always fluctuates are well. Currently rank4+ there are more freeps then creeps in the moors.

As others have said overall creep DPS needs to be looked at as well. Without a significant buff, I can only imagine how pitiful a spider dot will be on a +7 audacity heavy, with 55%+ mits.

Overall like the idea implementing gear tied to pvp (easier to balance in this game) and the slowing down of combat.