Thread: No need to do raids?

So after weeks of doing ToO T2 runs we are extremely unlucky as kinship with the 1st age symbols. Only the first time we did lightning T2 we got 2 1st age symbols (lucky) All the runs after that including other T2's ended with no 1st agers.

A few days ago someone from the kin who was grinding lvl75 monsters for lootboxes got 1, opened it and voila, a 1st age symbol... I'm really happy for him even though it turned out not that great, but is this really what is happening to the game? The ultimate reward for raiders atm is to get a 1st age symbol, but now you can grind monsters, spend TP and get a chance to get a 1st ager? While grinding monsters you even get a lot of silver/gold +hides +other items you can craft/sell. While with raiding you can lose a lot of money to repairs/hope/scrolls/pots etc...

This seems very very wrong in my opinion.

they should increase the drop of lootbox so hard to get one :s

Is selling them or buying them in AH ok? or should they be stopped as well.

I totally disagree with the OP.

I don't see how someone else getting very lucky in any way minimizes raiding.

Frankly I am glad to see there is another way to get one.

Cor if I got the high roll ... and a clasp plus 1st age symbol dropped ... I'd personally take the clasp.

If I'm not mistaken, by now my server has more First Ages from Lootboxes then from Orthanc. Raiders grind monsters between raids, other L75 grind monsters all the time, L75 Lootboxes sell on AH for over 150 Gold easily (a chance on a symbol!). Once the first person got it, others got into it as well and soon there were more Elder King Symbols from lootboxes than from Orthanc.

I think the real problem is that 1st age weapons are the ultimate goal for raiders. With how completely random and volatile the LI system is (that 1st weapon will probably be replaced with a level 85 3rd ager) there's no gear-oriented draw for me to do anything above a 6-man instance. I want to try it a few times for the novelty, but I have no desire to grind raids like I had in other games.

Originally Posted by Hydragyrum

I think the real problem is that 1st age weapons are the ultimate goal for raiders. With how completely random and volatile the LI system is (that 1st weapon will probably be replaced with a level 85 3rd ager) there's no gear-oriented draw for me to do anything above a 6-man instance. I want to try it a few times for the novelty, but I have no desire to grind raids like I had in other games.

Which is why if given the opportunity ... I'd much rather have the clasp. Anything I make with a worn eldar king symbol I know will be replaced by the end of the year. But if I get a cloak upgrade; I would have that cosmetic for a lifetime.

Originally Posted by Bragard

Is selling them or buying them in AH ok? or should they be stopped as well.

That's completely different, buying items from the Auction House involves using Gold you can only earn by playing the game.

I don't mind the 1st Age Symbols dropping from Loot-boxes, however there shouldn't be ANY aspect of a Loot-box that involves a trip to the LOTRO Store. The most desired item in the game should never be obtained by making a purchase in the Store...

Originally Posted by Malachi108

If I'm not mistaken, by now my server has more First Ages from Lootboxes then from Orthanc. Raiders grind monsters between raids, other L75 grind monsters all the time, L75 Lootboxes sell on AH for over 150 Gold easily (a chance on a symbol!). Once the first person got it, others got into it as well and soon there were more Elder King Symbols from lootboxes than from Orthanc.

Only 150g? They're selling ( not just listed, they have bids on ) for over 400g on Snowbourn.

It seems ridiculous to me to spend so much money on a 'chance' for a symbol, when you can buy an actual symbol for only 450g. But such is life

Nope, sorry, I'm glad there is a chance outside of raids to get one and I'm a raider.

This is no different that when there was random world drops for lvl 60 2nd age weapons back when Moria came out. I paid 40g for a lvl 60 2nd age bow.

Before Moria, the best weapons were crafted, quest rewards, PvMP rank items, 6 man instance loot and then 12 and 24 man raid loot. We had all kinds of options. The best armour was from the Rift (arguabley I suppose), but at least we didn't get hosed with our DPS.

Then there was SG and the countless runs to get a symbol to craft a weapon. Again, not a raid.

The Turtle was hardly a hard challenge after a couple runs and that was where the 1st age 60s came from.

OD proved a bit of a challenge and 1st age 65s became a tough find again, which sucked for most of us. I got a bow and then most of the people I ran with just stopped trying once they got their 1st age, which kind of screwed the rest of the people still trying to get one. Then you are forced to Pug.

I like that you get a 75 2nd age symbol for completeing a deed in the Dragon.


All of the above happened at different points in this games history with only OD being the real tough one to actually get the best weapon. If you're rolls suck, then you had to either find a good raiding kin that used DKP or something. When it takes you 3 months to finally get the damn 1st age and then they raise the lvl to 75 a month later, it really makes a person kind of annoyed.


Besides, there is plenty of stuff that is tough to get in this game for us raiders, I still don't have 3 dragon scales and I've killed that stupid thing at least 30 times.

Well if people are willing to pay 150 - 400 gold for a lootbox I'm afraid the problem is other.

This is a wonderfull game and there is no need to grind for a wsotek or anything else.

The OP has point. I think its slightly off thou. The issue is we need a reason to run raids. When 2nd ages used to be random world drops the raid is where you got raid gear. Now there is very little reason to run ToO on T2.

1) The raid gear only requires you run ToO once on T1. Really? What were you thinking turbine?
2) The teals you get from T2 are slightly better than skirmish teals at best.
3) The drop rate for symbols is pretty low.

I just want something epeany in the raids. Is that too much to ask? It was originally first ages but now that is getting watered down by lootboxes.

Don't bother with the response of you run raids for the fun of it cause its just not true. Never has been and never will be.

Originally Posted by xadoor

The OP has point. I think its slightly off thou. The issue is we need a reason to run raids. When 2nd ages used to be random world drops the raid is where you got raid gear. Now there is very little reason to run ToO on T2.

1) The raid gear only requires you run ToO once on T1. Really? What were you thinking turbine?
2) The teals you get from T2 are slightly better than skirmish teals at best.
3) The drop rate for symbols is pretty low.

I just want something epeany in the raids. Is that too much to ask? It was originally first ages but now that is getting watered down by lootboxes.

Don't bother with the response of you run raids for the fun of it cause its just not true. Never has been and never will be.

How do you know that everyone that runs raids dont do them for the fun it?

not sure about how unlucky i am, but it cant be to easy to get a first age outta one of those thing. them seem pretty rare. ive opened up 7 now and in one box got a 2nd age symbol while all the rest were pretty useless to me. ive got lucky with the AH and buying like 4 lockboxes all for under 100g, but my point is boxes seem very rare to find and even rarer to find a first age. i think it's actually pretty cool they drop in those things. makes me feel like when i found hele gear off a reg mob. On the other hand our kin has been pretty unlucky with first ages in toO t2 also, only had one drop in 4 t2 boss kills. Sorry if i ramble early for me. Point is im a raider, but def not against those boxes having a small chance at dropping first ages.

Well, I am happy there is another way.

Sure, Raids should have unique rewards, but these rewards should not be better then anything you can get outside the raid as well.

No, raids should not be needed, Raids should be played for fun.

Personally, I like running T2 for the challenge. There are still unique items from T2 such as jewelry, clasps, weapons, and housing items that will never drop in loot boxes.

"why work when you can sit home and scratch lottery tickets?"

that is how i read the OP.

Welcome to Pay to Win!!!!

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

"why work when you can sit home and scratch lottery tickets?"

that is how i read the OP.

Yeah not quite, more like "why do hard work with 12 man, investing a lot of gold for preparations and repairs when you can do easy work alone, earning a lot of gold and usable items, with more luck then doing hard work with 12 man."

Something like that :P

Originally Posted by Eartholloth

How do you know that everyone that runs raids dont do them for the fun it?

Cause nobody runs end game content that has no rewards.

1) HG before the teals were added. Peoople would open the raid complete the daily to get the tokens and exit without even finishing the entire raid.
2) The 3 mans were the same way. I can't even remember their names now. In of the forsaken and at least 1 other one. There were very few rewards for doing them and as soon as these were had the content was done. Never to be run again.
3) Look at the places where rewards are easy. They are run as often as possible. Cause they were/are fun? bwahahahah (Turtle, Dragon, OD trees)

Content needs to be hard and fun but that in and of itself isn't enough to keep it played. I don't care how many of you post saying you'd run just for fun its just not happening. If you take away the reward the content gets run way less.

Originally Posted by Neumi

Well, I am happy there is another way.

Sure, Raids should have unique rewards, but these rewards should not be better then anything you can get outside the raid as well.

No, raids should not be needed, Raids should be played for fun.

Yeah, wouldn't want the hardest content to have the best rewards...what was I thinking? The best stuff should come from digging up treasure and playing the lottery.

Originally Posted by Eartholloth

How do you know that everyone that runs raids dont do them for the fun it?

Sort of agree.

There really isn't anything else for non-alting end game characters except to raid. I'll count skirms in that I suppose.

I don't have a lot to do left in game so I'm amazingly glad my kin runs raids regardless if I win loot or not.

Its as easy as this, make T2 drop one every time like Ost Dunhoth.

Then the butthurt will be over. You deserve one if you complete t2, not the same mediocre loot you got in t1 over and over.

About the lockboxes dropping first age symbols, well, I dont like it, but whatever.

Originally Posted by Thorcar

Personally, I like running T2 for the challenge. There are still unique items from T2 such as jewelry, clasps, weapons, and housing items that will never drop in loot boxes.

True. They will also never sell gear with stats in store. No, wait............

I believe people are missing the point.
It is not about the best reward being available for certain types of gameplay.
The issue here concerns playing the game and getting rewarded for accomplishing things in game.

The lootbox system as the lottery(and similars) hands stuff players regardless if they put any effort (regardless of type) into the game or not, while having a system that is built to difficult the average player efforts to get it.

And it is not the first time.

Same thing happened with a much less "important" thing in game.
A few months ago they handed out 50 pound fishing trophees like fireworks.
Yes nobody cares about fishing trophees, but this used to be "the" fishing trophee.
You had to rank your fishing levels and you had to fish through the areas you moved in for better fish.
In the end you had to play for it and invest your time one it. They were not easy to get and it was a really nice decoration and it really felt like a reward when you got them.

The problem is the same here: disrespecting players game effort as well as the game content and mechanics they develop.

Cheers

Lets see....grinding and spending time to get a lootbox for a CHANCE at a symbol isn't okay, but grinding to get MONEY to buy one on the AH is okay? 0_o

I think you need to look at it as TIME SPENT IN GAME getting what you want and NOT how it's done.

Getting a symbol from a box is pretty damn rare, just as rare as getting one from a raid. Hell, you'll probably spend the same amount of time doing it and the end result is the same.

I've been saving up gold for the opportunity when one drops on Brandywine AH because I have NO intention to spend anymore time doing Isen instances. It makes more sense to spend the time getting gold and simply pick one up when someone posts it.

Stop whining about "poor raiders".

I think people running the end game instances should be lucky you can even GET them from the Isen wings T2. It wouldn't be far fetched for turbine to have made them ONLY drop from Saruman. Then we'd be witnessing a different kind of Raider whine.

Lootbox symbols don't effect you. AH doesn't effect you. Get the symbol the way you want and leave other people alone. This doesn't lessen your achievement of how you got YOUR symbol.

Originally Posted by VentoPT

I believe people are missing the point.
It is not about the best reward being available for certain types of gameplay.
The issue here concerns playing the game and getting rewarded for accomplishing things in game.

The lootbox system as the lottery(and similars) hands stuff players regardless if they put any effort (regardless of type) into the game or not, while having a system that is built to difficult the average player efforts to get it.

And it is not the first time.

Same thing happened with a much less "important" thing in game.
A few months ago they handed out 50 pound fishing trophees like fireworks.
Yes nobody cares about fishing trophees, but this used to be "the" fishing trophee.
You had to rank your fishing levels and you had to fish through the areas you moved in for better fish.
In the end you had to play for it and invest your time one it. They were not easy to get and it was a really nice decoration and it really felt like a reward when you got them.

The problem is the same here: disrespecting players game effort as well as the game content and mechanics they develop.

Cheers

I thought I explained better than the OP but you hit it on the head. +1

No matter what you grind out you don't wanna see that reward handed out in a lottery or lootbox or bought in the store. I think I remember the same complaint about the painted horses. Thou I could care less about your fishing trophy I respect that you "earned" it and I should not have it just handed to me.

But I suppose others will say they don't like fishing and they should be able to get fishing rewards randomly some other way and it shouldn't bother you. Its epeens. Fish epeens, raid epeens, treasure digging epeens or inn league epeens. They should all be equally respected. Quit crossing the epeen streams before we all get destroyed by stay puft marshmallow goo.

As VentoPT said, peeps are missing the point here. Problem isn't alternative source of 1st age items. It's the fact that, that source is basically a gamble system pointing to Turbine Store. And no matter how low chance for best shiny item is, as long as You can get it, people will grind mobs, buy boxes and most important pay $ to open it.

so, is your name supposed to be ironic?

hmmm lootbox is gambling but joining a RAID and HOPING you ROLL on the item ISN'T gambling?

Give me a break.

It's all the same.

Originally Posted by PANZERBUNNY

hmmm lootbox is gambling but joining a RAID and HOPING you ROLL on the item ISN'T gambling?

Give me a break.

It's all the same.

I'd hazard a guess that most organized raid groups (i.e. kin groups, alliance groups, consistent PuGs) rely on some sort of DKP or other loot distribution system that rewards consistent contribution rather than the results of a /roll.

Given that the First Age Symbols only drop from T2 Orthanc, I'd go even further and say that pretty much every group that actually has a chance at earning a 75 First Age LI isn't using /roll to hand out the loot. (I don't know of any groups that are pugging T2 Orthanc - T1, yes, but not T2.)

In short, the people earning Worn Symbols of the Elder King through actual gameplay are very likely not getting them via any sort of method that involves gambling - let alone a method that may require a TP Store purchase (the lootbox key).

EDIT:

Even if you still equate winning a Symbol in a raid with gambling, the ability to acquire these Symbols via lootboxes is another fine example of this part of the F2P FAQ just being flat-out wrong:

Will I still be able to play and enjoy the game without buying items from the LOTRO Store, or is that my only option for gaining weapons, armor, potions, and other goodies such as premium loot?

The purchase of items in the LOTRO Store is entirely optional. While items in the Store are designed to immediately enhance your in-game experience, premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay.

Note the phrase "only obtainable through gameplay." I'd hardly consider an item obtained thanks to a Store purchase to be "only obtainable through gameplay."

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

so, is your name supposed to be ironic?

I play hnt and grd to name 2 EZmode classes.

Yes the point i tried to make is that i don't like everyone can get a 1st age by just 'winning the lottery'. Because it's an item that is the ultimate reward for a raider, and i think it shouldn't be put in a lottery. Next patch you can get a full set of T3 armour of Rohan by winning the lootbox lottery?

I'm happy if people win it, i say grats you are lucky, but still i don't like that it's possible to win it. Makes all my raiding efforts go in vain.

Just as someone else mentioned with the fishing trophies and that they were handed out as fireworks.

As a raider, I don't care if they also drop in lootboxes. The chance for getting a worn 1st age symbol out of a lootbox is pretty low. If they handed them out like candy I might feel a bit differently, but whatever. At the pace they are going with LI's/leveling why not get them and use them while they are still relevant?

Plus, there are still benefits to the raid: Clasps, doing the content (what, content's fun?), rare jewelry, etc. Also, raiders have the same chance of winning a symbol in lootboxes as non-raiders. If a raider happens to win one outside of the raid, guess what? That makes your raid member even better geared for your next run. (lol maybe they're in your group eh?)

Originally Posted by xadoor

Cause nobody runs end game content that has no rewards.

Unless you have polled every person who raids you still do not know.

Originally Posted by Eartholloth

How do you know that everyone that runs raids dont do them for the fun it?

Seriously?

Just how many people do you think would be running Orthanc Tier 2 Challenge if there was no loot?

/Rhetorical question...

I do think 1st agers should be a raid gated achievement.

Originally Posted by xadoor

Don't bother with the response of you run raids for the fun of it cause its just not true. Never has been and never will be.

I like raiding, so Up Yours!

Originally Posted by Mark_J

Just how many people do you think would be running Orthanc Tier 2 Challenge if there was no loot?

Rhetorical or not, I know I would. Trying and failing is frustrating, but I like the feeling I get from completing something difficult with 11 other people. I like being a part of a large team all working towards and achieving the same goal.

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

I do think 1st agers should be a raid gated achievement.



I like raiding, so Up Yours!




Rhetorical or not, I know I would. Trying and failing is frustrating, but I like the feeling I get from completing something difficult with 11 other people. I like being a part of a large team all working towards and achieving the same goal.

Clearly you're in a tiny minority and Turbine doesn't agree with your idea of the motivation it takes to run Raids. If Turbine subscribed to the idea that Raiders would run Instances without receiving loot they wouldn't waste the resources to put loot in the Instances.

Pretty simple really...

Originally Posted by Mark_J

Clearly you're in a tiny minority and Turbine doesn't agree with your idea of the motivation it takes to run Raids. If Turbine subscribed to the idea that Raiders would run Instances without receiving loot they wouldn't waste the resources to put loot in the Instances.

Pretty simple really...

I won't argue with that, when it comes to other people's motivations.

Originally Posted by xadoor

Don't bother with the response of you run raids for the fun of it cause its just not true. Never has been and never will be.

Pls refrain from giving opinion (which indeed everyone has the right to) as FACT. There are lots of people in this game who consider raids fun, run them for fun, and are happy to beat the raids regardless of "bad rolls," no loot, repairs, whatever. To each his own.

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

I do think 1st agers should be a raid gated achievement.



I like raiding, so Up Yours!

Ok, put down the torch and pitchfork and take deep breath. Maybe look out the window for a while. Perhaps even take a few steps away from your computer.

I don't care about any 1 item being raid gated or not. I'm just saying raids are hard(and fun) and should have gear only attainable from raiding. You are allowed to disagree. I'm sure you are wrong about other stuff too so whats one more thing.

You'd have a really hard time getting groups on any consistent basis if there were no raid loot. You can argue semantics all you want and claim you'd still raid all you want. There is no example to backup your claim as any raid that hasn't dropped loot in the past was hardly ever run. On the other hand raids with loot are run constantly weather fun or not. So all we are asking is that raids are fun AND rewarding.