Thread: Redefining the Hunter - Why you should roll one.

The Hunter is a ...

Champion, without 30% of their dps but at range. .. and the armor... and the bubble.
Warden, without HoTs to compensate for sucky armor.
Burglar, without movable stealth and useful CC even when traited for it.
Captain, without the toggles and buffs being useful.
Minstrel, without the heals, the fast dps, nice buffs, and bubble.
Lore-Master, without being able to restore their own power nearly as well.
Guardian, without the armor but with the aggro.
Rune-Keeper, without the ability to ever switch what we do effectively or balance.

Ooopsie, did I make that title wrong?

Sorry, I forgot that to add that we have sucky inductions too, and massive immobility.. Lore-Masters have it rough like that too, but they have CC to compensate for that... and they can keep their power up.

Welcome to why the hunter class should either be revamped in all trait lines, legacies, skills, or ... face being scrapped. If were were made halfway useful I'd gladly give up my ports, as I hate being a bus -- no, a cheap-fanny wagon as is.

Discuss.
Also, I'd like to bid 5 for Orion just to take 5 minutes of a look at us, and try to fix something without just laughing about how sorry things really are.

The only way to truly bring a hunter up to par with every other class would be to somehow give us all the morale back that we lost gaining agility, or turn the agility up even higher with hunter only armor/jewelry and let us, at minimum, match a champs dps.

The problem is that the Hunter was revamped for update 2 if I remember correctly. It was not so bad, before Isengard. Not that he is that worse than before, but because many of the other classes were upgraded with Isengard, but the hunter remain relatively the same with some things a bit better and some a bit worse. One thing where we loss a lot was the passive skills. Four of them where giving a total of +6% critical! So, at level 75, with 4 pieces of Draigoth armor, a few special jewelries, 2 second age weapons I just got a bit over than what I had a level 65. That's is probably the worse loss, but there was a few others. I'm not that power hungry or character optimizer, so I don't care that much an still enjoy playing it. But still, I completely understand that compare to other classes, hunter is far less appealing than it was.

One other that loss a lot was the Warden, but at least, it seem that they will get a fix in update 6.

Redefining the Hunter you say ?....... Turbine already has.....

You want to play a Hunter inspired by the feats of Legolas?.....

spend the $

and play....


a Blackarrow!

Originally Posted by Bergard

The problem is that the Hunter was revamped for update 2 if I remember correctly. It was not so bad, before Isengard. Not that he is that worse than before, but because many of the other classes were upgraded with Isengard, but the hunter remain relatively the same with some things a bit better and some a bit worse. One thing where we loss a lot was the passive skills. Four of them where giving a total of +6% critical! So, at level 75, with 4 pieces of Draigoth armor, a few special jewelries, 2 second age weapons I just got a bit over than what I had a level 65. That's is probably the worse loss, but there was a few others. I'm not that power hungry or character optimizer, so I don't care that much an still enjoy playing it. But still, I completely understand that compare to other classes, hunter is far less appealing than it was.

One other that loss a lot was the Warden, but at least, it seem that they will get a fix in update 6.

Pretty much this.

We have been held on the level while every other class not named wardens got better. I'd posit the RKs got lateralled too.

Originally Posted by deaddove

The Hunter is a ...

Champion, without 30% of their dps but at range. .. and the armor... and the bubble.
Warden, without HoTs to compensate for sucky armor.
Burglar, without movable stealth and useful CC even when traited for it.
Captain, without the toggles and buffs being useful.
Minstrel, without the heals, the fast dps, nice buffs, and bubble.
Lore-Master, without being able to restore their own power nearly as well.
Guardian, without the armor but with the aggro.
Rune-Keeper, without the ability to ever switch what we do effectively or balance.

Ooopsie, did I make that title wrong?

Sorry, I forgot that to add that we have sucky inductions too, and massive immobility.. Lore-Masters have it rough like that too, but they have CC to compensate for that... and they can keep their power up.

Welcome to why the hunter class should either be revamped in all trait lines, legacies, skills, or ... face being scrapped. If were were made halfway useful I'd gladly give up my ports, as I hate being a bus -- no, a cheap-fanny wagon as is.

Discuss.
Also, I'd like to bid 5 for Orion just to take 5 minutes of a look at us, and try to fix something without just laughing about how sorry things really are.

Your last point is the best ... it seems like its come to the point where unless Orion is in charge of the class changes/development its just a total fail.

Originally Posted by Baleth

The only way to truly bring a hunter up to par with every other class would be to somehow give us all the morale back that we lost gaining agility, or turn the agility up even higher with hunter only armor/jewelry and let us, at minimum, match a champs dps.

Or increase the base damage on a couple of our skills or just adjust the way some of them work (ie make HS a 45 sec CD with a much shorter induction) AND give us a way to manage threat. If they don't do the latter can turbine please increase the amount of threat generated by tanks skills. It would seem guards simply don't have the ability to generate enough threat, and Warden's can hold it only by relying on their threat leaches (which aren't particularly effective early on). I personally don't care that much about the survivability. Hunters should not be getting hit enough that we need to have 9k morale and 45% mits.

One other thing I would like to see is our ability to manage power outside of a raid looked at (though this can be said of most classes). If there isn't a Cappy going Song/Blade Brother or an LM to chuck out power it is just gone in no time flat even with 1400ICPR. This could be partially mitigated by not being forced to use a -threat book, but then we are right back to my initial points.

Oh and that Champs can fervor Tank because they out DPS hunters on a single target with equal gear ...

I loved your one by the Guardian lol. I really don't think hunters are that bad off right now, but I do REALLY agree that we need something done about our ability to manage threat (or like the poster above me said, increase the threat tanks generate). There are some guards who can hold aggro like a rock nowadays, but I've found them to be very rare (less than 1% in my experience). With the rest it's a constant aggro battle between me and the tank if I actually maximize my dps before the target is practically dead. Wardens can actually hold aggro pretty decently, but they have to focus 100% on threat/aggro skills, and we all know that they really need to use their defensive skills and self-heals in most fights also lol.

And I do agree that I think we could use "something" for our class that sets us apart. That, or a RKs/champs/burgs in equal type gear can do pretty much the same damage, perhaps a little less, but they also just have so many more things they can do while we can really only viably dps.

So now after parsing against a champ (I could not believe them to deal more DMG than us generally), I have to say I am quite disappointed. Now my equip is still to optimize and the champ had a first age, yet the difference was larger than I thought since I was buffed with oil and a bowchant too, which I should not be needed to be on par right now. Well consumables are needed.

On the other hand though I have to say people tend to exaggerate at the moment. We are still way easier to play than every other DD out there and our range counts for something as well. For being as one-sided though as the hunter class is, there is a lot of room for improvement though.

If hunters are revamped so we can have something special to bring to the table (like the other classes) and be competitive for spaces in instances, I will return to playing the game. I read every now and then and wait.

I could level another toon but I am really annoyed by this situation.

Originally Posted by Sephollos

I loved your one by the Guardian lol. I really don't think hunters are that bad off right now, but I do REALLY agree that we need something done about our ability to manage threat (or like the poster above me said, increase the threat tanks generate).

No, indeed we are not "that bad off." If we presently virtue trait for mits and gear/bling build with some balance in mind, we can do "decent" dps, reasonably survive some aggro pulls, and moderately contribute to a fellowship. Meh.

My question to you and to the devs more importantly would be: Is mere "decent dps" what was intended for the hunter class?

Because if it is not, then threat management should be the absolute TOP priority for fixes where the game mechanic as a whole is concerned.

Hunter aggro generation and it's management has never once been addressed short of blaming player skill - be that of the tank or of the hunter when the problem surfaces.

As I see it now, after two and half years of playing mine, since RoI hunters have been more than ever confronted with the choice of throttling back what they COULD do in order to sustain with less negative effects what they SHOULD do: make up for huge aggro generation without proper tools to manage it consistently and effectively.

If the hunter as a class was "supposed to" out-dps at range every other class on single targets, then the planning of what that would mean to a fellowship was abysmal.

Think about the implications of this: Mob AI has been fairly consistent and straightforward. If hunters are generating at their max range amounts of damage above all others within melee range, this mechanic by definition will dismantle a fellowship dynamic in seconds:

Pulling aggro at max of 40 meters without effective and consistent means to dump it (as we have seen) puts the mini at risk needlessly, forces the tank to scramble to recover aggro, usually meaning the hunter running back to tank and getting even more aggro from other mobs in melee of tank, mini/cappy/LM considering healing you (I say considering since many of them just let you die), and let's not even bother to discuss the fact that at this max range from the fellowship the hunter loses out on buffs such as mini aura, cappy aura/banner, being out of range of cj's, etc.

The removal of the stat cap has had an even larger, more visible effect on the problem. Hunters packing 2K agility unbuffed (easily reachable with present end game gear sets, and which I myself have done) can consistently pull aggro off the most experienced tanks even in ES. There are not THAT many hunters with this amount of agility AND +7K morale out there to withstand the consequences of pulling aggro.

It also remains a source of amusement to me that people in these forums continue to argue profusely about what class out dps's another. They guy/gal with the bow is usually the meal of choice for a reason - stop ignoring this devs - DO SOMETHING about it.

My question to you and to the devs more importantly would be: Is mere "decent dps" what was intended for the hunter class?

Like I said, I do strongly agree that there are significant issues with hunters that could use improvement and I totally agree that our class could use a bit of love. But that said, we are currently one of the top dps classes in the game, so we are able to do that job relatively well. Its just the threat issue, as well as the fact that the other dps classes have much greater utility yet provide very similar dps numbers, that I feel need to be addressed the most. I cry a little inside every time I see a burg coming even remotely close to my dps lol. I think that if both of these things could be addressed our class would be in a much better position.

Note: I'm a purely PvE player so I don't know much about the moors. I know a lot of players there want some sort of increased survivability options such as a bubble, but really I don't think that's entirely necessary for PvE if the above issues are somehow taken care of. Press Onward really does need to be fixed/scaled properly though, because now with the long induction and relatively low returns it's hardly worth slotting.

There are only three possible ways ZC could go with hunters for U6 that would make sense:
(1)Make us ABSOLUTE king of the hill dps class. We destroy anything we touch. (ok, over exaggeration)
(2)Give us a little more survivability without sacrificing dps. And no, I don't mean buff medium armour. Tha just places us in the same hunter/burg dilemma we're already in. I mean a useful skill. Replace hunters art for all I care.
(3)Give us threat management. This kinda ties into both #1 and 2, and is definitely a necessity at this point. Tanks need to generate a LOT more aggro. Currently, only good wardens can cope with my burst damage, and I'm still not completely geared out to my liking.

I bet a lot of hunters would come back if at least #3 was accomplished, and I would like for either #1 or 2 to be accomplished as well (but not both. Now that would be quite a bit OP)

I have to say I still love my hunter. However, I HATE having to run in Endurance stance just to keep above 500 power (using SotE and sometimes Pots or PO) for a fight longer than 2 minutes. And when I use it, even with the -5% threat, I pull mobs almost always from the tank, and it's even worse in Precision Stance. My vent is done. (even though it was short)
Later.

"Guardian, without the armor but with the aggro."

I lol'd

Originally Posted by Zioloth

I have to say I still love my hunter. However, I HATE having to run in Endurance stance just to keep above 500 power (using SotE and sometimes Pots or PO) for a fight longer than 2 minutes. And when I use it, even with the -5% threat, I pull mobs almost always from the tank, and it's even worse in Precision Stance. My vent is done. (even though it was short)
Later.

BOTR & Deep Concentration helps a bit
But I'd only trait DC if you had the legacies & Swift Recovery
I usually only do if I'm traiting 5blue/2red

On a partial side note: They need to scale up the power return for BOTR
It's still set for level 50 power

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

So now after parsing against a champ (I could not believe them to deal more DMG than us generally), I have to say I am quite disappointed. Now my equip is still to optimize and the champ had a first age, yet the difference was larger than I thought since I was buffed with oil and a bowchant too, which I should not be needed to be on par right now. Well consumables are needed.

I think your gear is not that nice. Hunters scale with every Point of mainstat that much. Looking at my Lotro you are 2k Crit and more then 500 points of agility behind me. That is huge. You can not compare a parse from a good champ with first age weapon versus a not that good equiped hunter. Hunter are very gear depending.

Originally Posted by Burio

I think your gear is not that nice. Hunters scale with every Point of mainstat that much. Looking at my Lotro you are 2k Crit and more then 500 points of agility behind me. That is huge. You can not compare a parse from a good champ with first age weapon versus a not that good equiped hunter. Hunter are very gear depending.

But you can say this about every class right now. It is getting more gear dependent by the update, especially since the stat cap loss.

On that topic, Mili didn't parse above Bere either. He was closer though of course. I guess you could come really close when fully equipped buffed etc. This is where believe it goes wrong. I do not have a problem with parsing below a equally skilled champ. We had the same buffs equipped, he had the first age weapon, yet I used every consumable I could find, agility food, reg food, fire oil, breach-finder and a focus pot. What I really do not want is relying on consumables I have to reequip after every defeat in order to be competitive. I mean the breach-finder does so much for damage it is really needed. Is there another class having something like this? Also as most hunters including me are woodworkers I can't even craft any of my consumables myself.

I don't play without Breach-Finder and Fire Oil. Yes that's right our consumables are strong. But that goes for other classes too... Runekeepers need a Inlay every fight start for get a higher attunement level too. Minstrel without that aggro consumable get more aggro, in some fights it's help very. Guardians need Shieldpikes for more crit or not common damage.... Champs... Champs don't have items like that. In that point you are right, for me this is not a problem.

The other Point, i don't know what you parse but i think a hunter can do same damage then a Champ. With more raidbuffs it's get even better. Because of the focus/fervor system that let hunters better scale in raids with buffs than champs. I think hunter are fine. But you need gear. Unter 2100 agility and 10k crit unbuffed is a huge problem, with every point in crit you can play a better rota. with 12,2xx crit buffed and something about 2400 agility raidbuffed you can play a other rotation then a hunter with 1600 agility and 7,x crit unbuffed.

well I laughed

bit ruefully, but still

I barely play my hunter now tbh. It's just disappointing. I feel like ZC changed hunter just to say he did something, not to improve the class, not to bring it up to par with others post 65. Half of the justification seems to be it's an entry level, or easy play class. So what? That doesn't mean it shouldn't have something extra going for it.

Originally Posted by deaddove

Also, I'd like to bid 5 for Orion just to take 5 minutes of a look at us, and try to fix something without just laughing about how sorry things really are.

Originally Posted by Hefin

Hunter aggro generation and it's management has never once been addressed short of blaming player skill - be that of the tank or of the hunter when the problem surfaces.

Orion seems to be passively helping this issue for hunters in the warden changes. One word: assailment.

WTB 2 Pocket Wardens specializing in Assailment Stance for +Ranged Damage and -Threat buffs, PST.

Originally Posted by Piirow

Orion seems to be passively helping this issue for hunters in the warden changes. One word: assailment.

Yeah and how often do you come across a warden in a raid or group situation? Even more how often will you encounter a warden taking up a supporters place just to degenerate a hunter's threat and add to their DPS instead of tanking?

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Yeah and how often do you come across a warden in a raid or group situation? Even more how often will you encounter a warden taking up a supporters place just to degenerate a hunter's threat and add to their DPS instead of tanking?

According to the new update hints, a LOT more often.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Yeah and how often do you come across a warden in a raid or group situation? Even more how often will you encounter a warden taking up a supporters place just to degenerate a hunter's threat and add to their DPS instead of tanking?

My warden will love doing this and I think a fair number of other wardens will as well, giving wardens a secondary role is a good thing and you will see more, now about hunters secondary role... I'm not sure I've ever had a hunter in my group as "main" cc, doesn't mean it can't happen, just means I haven't seen it

Hunter DPS in PVE Raids is fine and Threat is manageable, so no need to get a support warden in the raid for less aggro...

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Yeah and how often do you come across a warden in a raid or group situation? Even more how often will you encounter a warden taking up a supporters place just to degenerate a hunter's threat and add to their DPS instead of tanking?

+1
I'd love to understand what the devs are thinking because if that's the intent it makes zero sense.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

My warden will love doing this and I think a fair number of other wardens will as well, giving wardens a secondary role is a good thing and you will see more, now about hunters secondary role... I'm not sure I've ever had a hunter in my group as "main" cc, doesn't mean it can't happen, just means I haven't seen it

I don't see that. What about an LM dishing out power and debuffing mobs? Or a captain buffing and healing an dincrasing dmg as well? I wouldn't want a hunter for CC in my group either. I do not know about upcoming wardens.

At the very least give hunters better aggro management. I watch them pull off tanks all the time. A -threat trait or a huge aggro dump similar to champs ebbing ire would be awesome.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

At the very least give hunters better aggro management. I watch them pull off tanks all the time. A -threat trait or a huge aggro dump similar to champs ebbing ire would be awesome.

We do have 1 skill, which reduces threat to -70% (Traited) lasts 20s (Traited) and can have a cooldown of 3 mins (Legacy).
I also recommend that when ever a hunter pulls aggro, you turn to quick shot and spam quick shot (Since quick shot in endurance lowers threat) and so by the time the Beneath Notice effects wear off, your threat should be back to the tank.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

I don't see that. What about an LM dishing out power and debuffing mobs? Or a captain buffing and healing an dincrasing dmg as well? I wouldn't want a hunter for CC in my group either. I do not know about upcoming wardens.

I don't get your LM/Captain point. I don't think you get what I was saying ether. I'm saying that since wardens have a secondary roll of ranged DPS and ranged buffing you will see more of them and I think you will see them working together with hunters quite nicely. My "hunter CC" reference was just that I don't see hunters having much of a viable secondary role atm where as wardens are finally getting one.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

I don't get your LM/Captain point. I don't think you get what I was saying ether. I'm saying that since wardens have a secondary roll of ranged DPS and ranged buffing you will see more of them and I think you will see them working together with hunters quite nicely. My "hunter CC" reference was just that I don't see hunters having much of a viable secondary role atm where as wardens are finally getting one.

I did understand what you were trying to say. I just do not see a warden in the support slot because of their secondary role. For the same reason as you do not often see a Hunter for CC, a Captain for tanking, a LM for AE-DMG and all those seconfary roles. If you have a class at hand whose first role fulfils more than another's secondary you'll take him.
So I guess (we'll have to see though) I'd still rather take a captain, LM or Burg for the support slot, or even another DD over a support warden. Tanking is different though of course. So unless Orion does his job too well this will not change for most groups.

What is needed is more like a increase to morale, power based on simliar light armor and med roles.It seems no hard trade off was taken away from LM,RK,Min or Warden for gaining or going more deeper in morale and power.

Hunter of course gives up alot morale to get dps decent enough to survive.If for example a light armor traits for dps in (insert fate,will agiilty,might)) to 1400 and then has a morale pool of 7k to 8k morale and 6k to 7k.How is that suppose to put Hunter in good company. I mean come on, they are still dpsing like crazy and have bubbles,heals and surviveability.

No one wants to be a glass cannon or god mode but when you got other classes with 3k to 4k more morale than you and 3 times power what happen there?
/rant off

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

I did understand what you were trying to say. I just do not see a warden in the support slot because of their secondary role. For the same reason as you do not often see a Hunter for CC, a Captain for tanking, a LM for AE-DMG and all those seconfary roles. If you have a class at hand whose first role fulfils more than another's secondary you'll take him.
So I guess (we'll have to see though) I'd still rather take a captain, LM or Burg for the support slot, or even another DD over a support warden. Tanking is different though of course. So unless Orion does his job too well this will not change for most groups.

you see champs for DPS and tanking, you see RK's for healing and DPS, you see burgs for DPS and CC/Debuffs, etc. Don't forget it looks as though one of their fully functioning roles is ranged DPS/buffing, not as much DPS as a hunter but with buffs. I imagine it going like so:

3 champs < 2 champs and 1 captain because the captain can buff and through in a little dps
3 hunters < 2 hunters and 1 warden because the warden can buff and put out substantial ranged dps.

who knows though we are both completely speculating at this point.

Originally Posted by Piirow

Orion seems to be passively helping this issue for hunters in the warden changes. One word: assailment.

To suggest that by giving Wardens this stance, it is going to correct the overall aggro management issue for hunters is a stretch at best and does not address the issue - that being: HUNTERS need this mechanic addressed in their own class, not by virtue of some other class "picking up the slack," as at were...

ES, QS, threat book, etc., all tools mentioned above in other posts, do NOT address the issue either. Using those tools, throttling back off 2K+ agility, running in ES, adding threat legacies, etc. are NOT a workable solution - they are a WORKAROUND to an effect brought about by hunter dps that clearly nobody at dev central bothered to consider, at least not in any serious way.

Being potentially dependent on warden buffs now? Ya - like being dependent on mini heals, cc, guard tanks being instantly on their toes, cappies stepping in to bail us out, whatever... again does nothing but put everyone's attention on "the problem of the hunter" rather than the work at hand, like killing the boss, etc. More group wipes are cause by "bad hunter aggro pulls" and subsequent death than anything else I've seen in raids.

/end rant

Originally Posted by zalladi

We do have 1 skill, which reduces threat to -70% (Traited) lasts 20s (Traited) and can have a cooldown of 3 mins (Legacy).
I also recommend that when ever a hunter pulls aggro, you turn to quick shot and spam quick shot (Since quick shot in endurance lowers threat) and so by the time the Beneath Notice effects wear off, your threat should be back to the tank.

The trait is yellow, which makes no sense, because if I'm doing CC I'm not focusing on dps, which is what pulls threat off the tank in the first place. It effectively reduces a hunter's dps by plenty if you put that trait in there instead of another red/blue. In other words, you're giving up more dps for less threat... irony much? Definitely should be in the red or blue line.
Also, a critted IQS in endurance actually has a net threat gain. On a dev, it's worse. Since I run heavily on crit (hunter's main advantage is burst ST dps, if you don't pull aggro ) I'm critting every 1/4 IQSs. That's not very useful threat reduction. I would definitely like to see something along the lines of IQS CANNOT crit while in endurance, or a larger -threat on it.
Hunters only have a hope if they have BN up or if the uber tank pops a quick force taunt and slaps engage on