Thread: 'Fog of War' to Unexplored Areas on Maps

Originally Posted by whheydt

As I said previously... I don't care that much either way....I certainly wouldn't pay to have FoW back.

Which is why some are suggesting a toggle to it so you can have it if you want to and likewise if you don't.

Originally Posted by Ysadora

Which is why some are suggesting a toggle to it so you can have it if you want to and likewise if you don't.

I certainly have no objections to that, though I think there are more pressing needs for toggles than FoW.

The problem is, to create such a toggle, FoW has to be fixed and Turbine was--obviously--unwilling to spend the money to fix it when it existed. Second, if the toggle is provided to everyone, then there is no income generated to cover the cost of the fix and creating the toggle. Third, if the toggle is a Store item, it may or may not earn out the development cost and people will complain about having to pay to get it.

Putting FoW back in is a No Win situation for Turbine. I don't say that out of malice for FoW, but merely as an observation of the situation. Better Turbine spends money on things that do provide a return.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Yeah...but could they sell *enough* copies of the feature to recover the cost of development? I'm dubious that they could. If the price were high enough to cover costs, it would be too expensive for nearly anyone to buy it, and if it were cheap enough for lots of people to buy it, it wouldn't cover the development costs.

Well let take a look this url Fog of War 461 Post after they taken it off. With All the people complained about not having FOW. I bet they could make money and It would pay for it self.

Yes bring it back. But I find the whole game as been Dumbed down since it went free to play.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

Well let take a look this url Fog of War 461 Post after they taken it off. With All the people complained about not having FOW. I bet they could make money and It would pay for it self.

A thread on these forums proves absolutely nothing. Yes, even a long thread like that. Only a small fraction of players actually visit the forums, and an even smaller fraction post.

I didn't particularly like FOW, as I found it a general nuisance and the way it was implemented made no sense. However I don't see the harm in having it as a toggle in the UI options or something, to give players a choice.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Better Turbine spends money on things that do provide a return.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

So you're saying they should only add features they can directly monetize in the store or sell as an expansion? After all, VIPs pay their sub either way so why improve the game for them?

Seems very short-sighted to me.

Originally Posted by SuaronTehMighty

So you're saying they should only add features they can directly monetize in the store or sell as an expansion? After all, VIPs pay their sub either way so why improve the game for them?

Seems very short-sighted to me.

Turbine's current business model for LoTRO depends on two things. First, VIP monthly payments. Secondly, and increasing in importance, micropayments through the Store. Absent that income, there is no game. While I consider the whole shift to micropayments short-sighted, so long as that is the business model, all changes will be considered--by Turbine--in light of what those change will bring in through the Store.

In this particular instance, it is my contention that the cost that would be required to both fix FoW and to create a user selected toggle can not be priced in such a way as to recover that cast through the Store. Nor will it materially affect retention rates of VIP accounts. Nor will it materially affect discontent on the forums (which has both direct costs--time spent by moderators--and indirect costs--departure of upset customers).

The "elephant in the room" is the cost to fix FoW. All proposals to bring it back in some form ignore that issue.

I'm just showing that in the cold, hard equations of running a business, restoring FoW is not a profitable option.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

The "elephant in the room" is the cost to fix FoW. All proposals to bring it back in some form ignore that issue.

I'm just showing that in the cold, hard equations of running a business, restoring FoW is not a profitable option.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

One issue being ignored is that there is no FoW information stored on the database server for our characters. Bringing it back will require that the FoW be applied to all existing characters for the entire landscape.

I don't know about any other customers. It would greatly annoy me. I remember how upset I was when Turbine partially applied the FoW to all my characters. I logged in after the update - what was it - Evendim - I went - It all fracking white for my seven characters. What a bunch of rump holes.

The other solution is to leave it down for all existing characters. That would cause some annoyance for all those customers that never experienced FoW. I doubt all of them will be pleased.

Or they could apply to new regions going foward.

As much as I would like a workable FoW. The old method was a defective implementation. I don't see how we can go back at this point without causing a player riot.

Final concern - I wonder how much performance issues factored into the removal the FoW? There is a cost in database storage, character load times, internet bandwidth, server and client memory and CPU usage.

Logical fix would be Have it as user choice to install it or not to install it on there computer. Which will would do the same thing as the old FOW and also Freeing up server space. Let the user Choice to Download it or not.

For the people that say it will be to much work. Well none of us are unsure if they still have the old FOW or not for lotro. So we can not say how much work it will be. Other then fix a few bugs, Adding ROI new areas. It might not be that complex and make it it downloadable.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Final concern - I wonder how much performance issues factored into the removal the FoW? There is a cost in database storage, character load times, internet bandwidth, server and client memory and CPU usage.

/sarcasm

But..but..but WoW does it, so LOTRO has to be able to do it, right? I mean it's so easy!

/endsarcasm

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

Logical fix would be Have it as user choice to install it or not to install it on there computer. Which will would do the same thing as the old FOW and also Freeing up server space. Let the user Choice to Download it or not.

For the people that say it will be to much work. Well none of us are unsure if they still have the old FOW or not for lotro. So we can not say how much work it will be. Other then fix a few bugs, Adding ROI new areas. It might not be that complex and make it it downloadable.

What you're proposing is to make it a client-side function. You do realize, I hope, that *anything* client-side is easily hackable? Are you okay with the consequences of 3rd party programs running in violation of CoC/ToS that reveal map content that Turbine wants you to know only by discovery? Have you really thought through the ramifications of client-side map control?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Please bring this back. It made my runs through Middle Earth so much more enjoyable than they are knowing exactly where to go all the time.

Originally Posted by whheydt

What you're proposing is to make it a client-side function. You do realize, I hope, that *anything* client-side is easily hackable? Are you okay with the consequences of 3rd party programs running in violation of CoC/ToS that reveal map content that Turbine wants you to know only by discovery? Have you really thought through the ramifications of client-side map control?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Stop and think a bit. Currently, the entire map is revealed by Turbine. The proposal is to allow customers to hide information that Turbine gives. I doubt Turbine would bother with a download. It would a built in function in the client. Click the button to fill in the FoW. Click the button to clear the FoW. Click the button to raise or lower the FoW.

You digging deep to create non-problems. It is no more hackable than the key map. It is no more of a CoC/Tos issue than than Skins or Plugins. You can't see anything for which there is no map.

A bigger issue is if someone wants to decode the .DAT files that hold the landscape information. Those files already exist on our PC. Lotro is implemented using a Turbine engine. The original Decal developers from AC could probably decode this data if they wanted to.

The real crux of the matter is that making it an option reintroduces whatever factor originally caused Turbine to abandon the functionality in the first place.

They wouldn't have abandoned it if there wasn't a compelling reason to do so. So arguing to make it an "option" seems to willfully ignore the (likely) fact that Turbine decided that maintaining/fixing the FoW tech as it existed wasn't worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Hurin

The real crux of the matter is that making it an option reintroduces whatever factor originally caused Turbine to abandon the functionality in the first place.

They wouldn't have abandoned it if there wasn't a compelling reason to do so. So arguing to make it an "option" seems to willfully ignore the (likely) fact that Turbine decided that maintaining/fixing the FoW tech as it existed wasn't worthwhile.

The FoW didn't work properly. It some fundamental problems with its implementation. The only problem that I remember well is the "Fills itself back in" issue. Which drove me crazy. More than once after an update, I would log in and the FoW would be back. It would annoy the dung out of me.

Whenever Turbine would tweak a region, the FoW would fill in. All it would take would be make a Treasure Hunt area in Ered Luid. A big chunk of Ered Luid like everything from north of Duillond to Thorin's Hall would white out.

I was a little annoyed when Fog of War was removed, then as I kept playing I got used to it. But when a new area comes along part of me wishes it was there for the discovery reason.

Quite a few players made a valid argument maps can be studied before you go to a region. Or I buy them at the gas station analogy.
For me personally I want the best of both worlds I want the map known and I want to see the Fog of War. I've suggested in another thread how about having a check box on the map to toggle Fog of War.

Alternately, make two versions of the map available like what we can see using the map widget @ my.lotro.com
A drop down selection where you can pick either:
1. The parchment map - fully revealed and works as it is now, no FoW.
2. The terrain map - Has FoW for each individual toon.

This then satifies the "gas station purchase" argument and the "I like the discovery of an area" argument.
Even though I purchase a map from a Gas Station my memory of the area doesn't exist yet. The parchment map is the what should be there fully uncovered, and the terrain map is my personal memory of the area.

Yula mentioned about this data not being stored any more and everyone's FoG would need to be reset.
If implemented this way it's easier to say sorry bad luck to the players that already had the maps revealed from before. As now it's part of the terrain map instead. Also a total reset gives a good opportunity to improve how it operated internally and optimize data without having to take care of backward compatibility.

Well I wasn't going to post, but since there seems to be some misinformation floating around I might as well step in and set some of you "Oh it would be so hard to do" or "Oh we would have to go explore it all again" naysayers straight.

Yes there has been the occasional screw up with the FoW in the way it was previously. And yes It may have been a saved resource taking up needless space on a server somewhere.

Guess what? There is a database easily taking up TWICE the space and covering the EXACT same area as the FoW used to. Whats it called? .... Ill give you a few seconds to think.... 3... 2... 1.... Point of Interest Flags!

Whats that? You cant believe you didn't think of it? Well I know its hard to believe there could be something in the game covering all of the areas the FoW did and STILL be saved in the database and also could be hooked up with FoW covering the area the same as the Flag activation area when a Flag is not being shown. But there it is. And you wouldn't even have to re explore areas since your Flags are all stored!

Wow! Problem solved!


And before anyone says 'But the costs would be prohibitive!'. There is already an area of effect on the servers where a PoI flag is activated. It wouldn't take much to turn that same area into a blank spot on your map akin to how the FoW worked. The activation areas are already delineated.

I have been missing the FoW. I love to explore and search out new areas. 80% of the fun in my opinion

I have a theory for this: Any new we going to explore is strange to us and for this we should have fog of war, but if we happen to come across some merchants in this region we could buy maps for this area since people living there propably have maps for theirs or close by lands. I guess Maps will not have any important notes on them just for some that people know such as a hunting area or an Orc camp.

What you say guys???

It was in game when f2p started and most games that involve travelling about a map have a FoW type of thing.

Instead of removing it there should have been an option to toggle it off should the player wish to do so. While I'd like to see it return the toggle would be, I think, the best solution.

At least one thing is certain. With The Great River I will open the map as little as possible, as I also did with the Rise of Isengard maps. That's the only way I can feel I'm actually exploring a new region and going somewhere new

I so totally agree to the return of fog of war!!!
Helps keep track of each of my toons progress.
Gives exploration meaning.
Useful for RP.

The fog of war had always been bugged. Places opened up, when you only had been into a small portion of it during an instance. And things like that.

Those flags were the real exploring, and the way to know where you have been or not.
If people want to be spoiled with explorer deeds, they would check the lorebook, or a more convenient fan site.


I only hope this bug still can be reverted. I fear they have done a sneaky 'discover all'.

I understand that the old Fog of War was broken and revealed too much at times.

I agree that removing the Fog of War likely represented a significant savings in Data Base volume and will probably never return.

That being said...

/signed

I'd prefer the old and busted Fog of War to what we have now.

But remember that old fannish saying: The map is not the territory.

The other day one of whh's alts was helping one of my alts to go and kill the boss Orc, I forget his name, in order to persuade Gildor Inglorion to come to Halbarad's council. Whh knew approximately where the place was, and I could see the ring on my map. But we ran around for half an hour over the cliffs and canyons of Nan Wathren, land of you-can't-get-there-from-here. Having Fog of War off doesn't mean that you instantly know the territory; it just means you have a crude map that isn't all that helpful.

Which is perfectly appropriate for the Early Medieval setting on which Middle-earth is based. E.g., the Hereford Mappa Mundi ("Map of the World"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He...Mundi_1300.jpg

Found this in another thread:

Originally Posted by Celestrata

So, I think this post should remove some of the worry in this thread. The little flag markers showing up for all locations is a bug. They should only show up for locations you have visited and discovered. We have looked into this error, we caught it, and you'll see a fix to this appear in an upcoming update.

Thank you everyone who reported it via /bug.

Good to know it's only a bug, and not working as intended.

/signed !!!

We used to have Fog of War, but Turbine claimed that "players wanted it removed", so they removed it.
Personally I have never seen anyone say that they wanted it removed, but our beloved hosts aren't known for transparency.

/signed

Bring back Fog of War; it is completely and utterly ridicilous that a level 6 hobbit who never left the Shire can view locations from the depths of Moria.