Thread: Update 6: Commendations Developer Diary

Originally Posted by deeman25845601

Oh look, another nerf to creeps. The only way to acquire DP is by leveling? So once creeps' supply of DP runs out they will no longer be able to buy buffs unless they play freep? Please stop ruining PvP worse than it already is.

You slightly misunderstood the diary

Everything in PvMP that currently costs Destiny Points to buy will, when the change comes in, cost Commendations
You earn Commendations, in PvMP, thru kills, quests and such (currently you are rewarded with DP)

Buffs will cost Commendations
Skills will cost Commendations
Everything Creepside will cost Commendations

Destiny will remain a PvE perk (dread removal, +1 Hope ...etc)
PvE will earn DP thru levelling as we do at the moment (after level 10 you get 200DP per level)
And can only spend DP on the perks
There are some quests that reward DP in Moria and Lorien but not sure whats going to happen with them... do we keep them or are they going?

On Freep in the 'Moors at GV tading centre everything will cost Commendations ... PvMP Armour, Jewels, Weaps Pots and Potions
Freepside Commendations will be earned the same way... Kills, Quests and such ... but only in the 'Moors

Commendations will be CAPPED at 10k, so they will have to rethink the pricing of stuff in the moors.
At the mo there are skills that cost over 10k DP. So no doubt they will be changed when Commendations come in.... cant buy something that costs more than 10k if you are capped at 10k

Since sapience has asked for posts on this topic to be placed here....

I repeat my previous points.

> The DP/stone system was one of the few things on the moors not broken, why waste time fixing that which is not broken.

> It is good to give healers shares for kills - why these un-needed points instead of infamy then if a mechanic has now been worked out.

> Although few details are on the thread Delving pots are of enormous value to the creepside; the apparent increase in cost of them them and making it harder to stockpile them in quieter periods, while allowing freeps to continue to use crafted pots and food is mercilously unfair.

> Freeps walk around with 3 lines of buffs, we live with this on the creepside on a daily basis. You are removing the source for creep dp buffs; why? just why? The only possible reason I can forsee is to make it compulsory to buy buffs on the store. DP's were one of the only benefits fo VIP players for their creeps.

1) Seasons - '“PvMP Seasons” mechanic that encourages/requires player investment with each content update.' I like my creep now because I can break away for a while and not feel "left behind." Please don't make it feel like I have to play constantly or play catch up just to stay relevant. This approach to the LIs is the primary reason I no longer play my captain.

2) Pvmp stat - "The new season mechanic, associated with the new PvMP stat, will make the PvMP items more effective in PvMP than in PvE, thus preventing the undesirable overlap." What is this "new PvMP stat?"

3) and repeating my earlier concern - why is this being rolled out in multiple pieces/updates instead of waiting until it's set up and fully tested out on Bullroarer? Who thinks this is a good idea?

I just read the Dev Diary and i must say it sounds pretty great.

The only thing bothering me a little bit is that DoF will be useless if the monsters inside will only have a chance to drop consumables. I think the bosses should give a small portion of Commendations or rare PvMP jewelry that is not available anywhere else. With PvMP gear i mean it should have morale on it secondary to the class it's primary stat, and maybe special things like a clicky that removes the cooldown of a skill/item, only usable in PvMP.

Yes, the PvMP can be used outside the Ettenmoors. The new season mechanic, associated with the new PvMP stat, will make the PvMP items more effective in PvMP than in PvE, thus preventing the undesirable overlap.

What would that new PvMP stat be? And if you meant Commendations, how ist that going to make the items more effective in PvMP?

Originally Posted by deeman25845601

Oh look, another nerf to creeps. The only way to acquire DP is by leveling? So once creeps' supply of DP runs out they will no longer be able to buy buffs unless they play freep? Please stop ruining PvP worse than it already is.

Your statement/question shows you didn't read the Dev Diary.

Originally Posted by Siegfriedpf

Echo the concerns over those of us who mainly play PvE and do PvMP to get DP to get buffs for raids and so forth. If you're taking away our source of DP, we need some sort of replacement--particularly for those of us with VIP accounts who in theory shouldn't ever need to buy additional TP.
If DP are going away entirely (and it's unclear to me if that's the case), I don't see any of the existing DP buffs listed as purchasable with Commendations.

I personally do not believe perks are needed for Raids to be successful, but they are certainly helpful. I agree o two things here.

1. Perks needs to have increased drops as treasure in instances and landscape and lootboxes
2. VIPs get DP as a part of being VIP. How will this be compensated.

Turbine, you need to realize that many players participate in PvMP as an escape from the ever-increasing grind of the PvE game. Please do not force that grind on PvMP as well.

Over 5 years I've built up a large pool of DP. Now it will be useless for what for me is its primary purpose: bartering for rank-related upgrades for my 8 R6+ creep characters and for perks for those characters.

I have also built up Delving stones on all of these characters, to barter for potions without which creeps are ineffective (to say the least).

You will compensate me for the loss of these barter items how? Not all all it appears.

Now I will have 10K capped currency, which is a fraction of what would be needed for one character in the play style to which I'm accustomed, to spread across my 6 creeps and 4 level capped freeps on my primary server? I will have to give up creep perks (or go to the store), creep pots (or go the store) or focus my efforts on only one character because I cannot keep them adequately supplied to be effective on them if I try to spread out my highly limited currency.

I tend to be reasonable, and don't over-react, but we have already put up with a great deal and this is a slap in the face. The day I'm faced with spending TP to be effective on my creep I cancel my sub and don't look back.

You should (A) drop this idea -- which sounds poorly implemented at this phase -- altogether, or (B) continue to allow DP / Delving stone conversion while adding Commendations in order to allow DP phase out, or (C) significantly modify the plan as follows:

1. Allow a barter from existing currency to new currency at a reasonable conversion
2. Allow DP to continue to be used for perks on creep side
3. Allow DP to be exchanged for TP at a reasonable rate of conversion, and
4. Raise the Commendations cap considerably, e.g., to 100K.

Reading all these pages of commendations vs DP, my only question is this: Is THIS change the ONLY update in all of update 6? Nothing else? Weak if it is.

Wouldn't it be prudent to have the developer available on the forums for questioning after the release of a diary? At the very least to scan the official developer diary discussion thread and post replies to the leading questions and concerns.

Originally Posted by Beruthiel

Reading all these pages of commendations vs DP, my only question is this: Is THIS change the ONLY update in all of update 6? Nothing else? Weak if it is.

No it's not the only... when update 5 was on it's way, it was about 1 Dev Diary a week until the release of the Update... So there will be more.

We know there will be changes to both weavers and Stalkers for example but there is no words about that... Also warden will have update, so... Orion will have a long read of Dev Diary I am sure.


I just can't understand this complaining before it's even released, I think it sounds cool but I hope 10k is not the max or the prices will be lower...

About DP! How I get this Dev Diary is that DP will be gone for both freeps and creeps... 'Use up all your DP before U6 or else they will be gone' O_o

Edit: I was wrong about DP.
Just read this:
From Sapience
_____
I just want to make it very clear that nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a 100% inaccurate comment.

Not a single destiny point will be lost by any player. When you log in after update 6 you will still have them.
__________________

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

About DP! How I get this Dev Diary is that DP will be gone for both freeps and creeps... 'Use up all your DP before U6 or else they will be gone' O_o

This is not correct. You will not lose DP after U6. You will keep whatever you have and whatever you earn between now and then. Once this hits, then the only new way to get DP is through leveling.

Place a cap on Commendations as part of a move to create a “PvMP Seasons” mechanic that encourages/requires player investment with each content update.

Stupid...

Now does cap mean how many commendations I can store or how many I can get per season? Because if it's capped at how many I can get...

After I reach my commendation cap why bother continuing playing that season? So by trying to get people to play more often/even over the year, you introduce another mechic that makes it not worth playing during "PMvP season" after you capped your commendations. You are going to get a massive influx of players in the beginning of a season and then towards the end of a season less people. This will have an overall effect of degrading the PvMP experience.


Then, with the current cap and cost structure(10,000 cap 7500 per top tier amour/jewelry) I can only get one/maybe two things per season? so I'll have to wait a year(depending on seasons) no matter how much I play to get all the top tier equipment? Then on the creep side...Wow better not barter for potions if you want skills...

Come on tell me I interpreted this is wrong.

Originally Posted by JTollers

This is not correct. You will not lose DP after U6. You will keep whatever you have and whatever you earn between now and then. Once this hits, then the only new way to get DP is through leveling.

Indeed I am sorry... I noticed I was wrong. I have fixed it.

I have a million DP, and this proves that I dont really use them. I wouldn´t mind losing some of it. There have been much worse disappointements and slaps in the face in the history of LOTRO.

A bigger concern is about the barter stones from the delving of wasted developer time. Will we keep these, or will they be transferred? If transferred, will a cap destroy part of our treasure hoards?


The most annoying part of this developer diary is that Turbine is again addressing issues that most players do not really have a problem with.. while ignoring lots of issues players have.

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

No it's not the only... when update 5 was on it's way, it was about 1 Dev Diary a week until the release of the Update... So there will be more.

We know there will be changes to both weavers and Stalkers for example but there is no words about that... Also warden will have update, so... Orion will have a long read of Dev Diary I am sure.


I just can't understand this complaining before it's even released, I think it sounds cool but I hope 10k is not the max or the prices will be lower...

About DP! How I get this Dev Diary is that DP will be gone for both freeps and creeps... 'Use up all your DP before U6 or else they will be gone' O_o

Edit: I was wrong about DP.
Just read this:
From Sapience
_____
I just want to make it very clear that nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a 100% inaccurate comment.

Not a single destiny point will be lost by any player. When you log in after update 6 you will still have them.
__________________

Is really that hard to understand?

The creep perspective is the moors are unbalanced due to increased DPS for freeps (likely going up again in U6, that’s a can of worms for another day though). At least that’s been the predominate talking point/QQ since ROI. Here we have a currency update to an in game mechanic that truthfully worked well for both sides. It wasn’t broken, but it’s being fixed, yet the larger problem (see sig + U6 85lvl can of worms) hasn’t been addressed.

Second and most importantly, there is a very real distrust of the developer who wrote this diary. I’ve been advised privately not to be too personal and I am trying but let’s just say he hasn’t garnered the faith of creep players. I suspect anything that this particular developer puts forth will be met with skepticism and it’s his own fault, he created the conditions to garner it.

“sounds cool” isn’t enough, we have larger problems in the moors and while it is accurate to make the argument that LOTRO is a PvE centric game, it’s been there choice to amp up the communication on creep side. It shouldnt be surprising that the PvP community has a healthy dose of skepticism.

Originally Posted by JTollers

This is not correct. You will not lose DP after U6. You will keep whatever you have and whatever you earn between now and then. Once this hits, then the only new way to get DP is through leveling.

Also, post U6 the only use for DPs will be to purchase temporary buffs, creeps will no longer need it to buy permanent skills/traits/corruptions/skins ect for their characters.

This will align the use of DPs between the non-Moors world and both Freeps and Creeps in the Moors. The removal of it as a reward for activities in Creep play (unless they give you some for ranking your creep) will match its availability in the PvE land. This will separate the PvP economy from the PvE one meaning there will no longer be an incentive for a PvE world player to create a Creep just to farm DPs to buff his raiding character.

As mentioned someplace else, nobody will lose any DPs, creeps just won't need them to buy skills so if there are skills or skins you have available but haven't used DPs to buy you should by them before U6 hits.

====

I assume the same for Delving stones. If you have them and want traits, barter for them in now. If you are saving them for pots, make sure to do the exchange before U6. Hopefully we will be told what the exchange rate for stones -> Commendations will be so we can make informed decisions about leaving them for conversion vs bartering for pots.

This looks like its being used to get raiders to spend real money on store-bought equivalents of perks.
It looks like another d-bag move to extract more money from us without actually making product. How about making money by creating and improving content instead?

I know quite a few raiders who go to the Moors to get DP for perks for raiding. This will remove a motivation to go to the Moors.

Moors gear has generally been substandard. Each expansion there will be 1, maybe 2, pieces worth getting PvMP rank for. Many people did what I did: get rank 4 to get the 15 minute Moors map for convenient travel, get rank 6 a couple years later to get the good melee ring, get rank 9 last year to get the champ helm. Other than that, I focussed on raiding.

After the rank 4 map, the effort wasn't worth the piece of gear, but I did it because the reward wasn't JUST that piece, but all future pieces which required a given rank. So I got rank 9 not just for the helm, but all future pieces of worthwhile Moors gear which would be available for rank 9 +. Those future rewards are being shut down with this update. If Moors gear remains as substandard as it has been, I don't expect I will go back.

So... 3 things:
1) Provide a way to get DP for perks to replace what is being taken away. So you aren't obvious grubbers.
2) Give a reason for raiders to go to the moors once DP is disappeared.
3) Make moors gear a lot better than it has been for the previous 4 years.

So will DP be available ONLY from leveling?

That is not currently the case on the PvE side of things as many quests and things reward DP.

(re-asked from the other thread)

Originally Posted by JohnnyManeuvers

Now does cap mean how many commendations I can store or how many I can get per season? Because if it's capped at how many I can get....

I read it as a cap on how many you can STORE at one time across your account (on one server) at any specifc time.

What you will do is fight/quest and get some commendations. Then if you have skills/traits/corruptions/skins that you want for one of your creeps you will spend them on those then you will be below the cap and go back out and fight some more, get more commendations, buy another advance, rinse, repeat.

UPDATE: Also note that since the Commendations are shared across your characters, you can still fight/quest on one creep to win upgrades for your other creeps but now you don't have to bother finding someone to trade stones or pots between creeps, you just purchase what you want on the appropriate character.

Once you have purchased all the desired permanent skills/traits/ect for your creeps at their current ranks you will switch to spending your commendations on pots (which will stick around until you use them) and temporary buffs (and any other goodies they introduce down the road)

When you gain the next rank on one of your creeps you will go back to buying the new toys now available to you (just as you now do with DPs) then back to pots and buffs.

The cap means that you have to convert your rewards to 'stuff' as you go, not build up the hugh DPs stockpiles many creeps have currently so that when you rank or an update provides new 'stuff' you will have to go out and win it to own it.

At least, thats how I read it working.

Originally Posted by Moondog548

So will DP be available ONLY from leveling?

That is not currently the case on the PvE side of things as many quests and things reward DP.

I read the diary as meaning that in the moors there will no longer be a way to collect DPs but making no comment on any changes outside them.

Update: Except that maybe you might earn DPs when your Creep ranks, that is not at all clear.

That would mean, for better or worse, that players not interested in PvP would not need to come to the moors to farm DPs for buffs for PvE raiding.

Will the (Greater) Sigils of Battle remain and/or will the new skins you can barter for them be available for acquisition using Commendations?
Will creeps still be able to earn Destiny and/or will the current Destiny Perks be available for acquisition using Commendations?

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Is really that hard to understand?

I do understand perfectly, I have been playing creep a few weeks now becouse freeps are OP and I don't like to mow over creeps till they log out.
I know what happens in the moors, atleast at Gilrain.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

The creep perspective is the moors are unbalanced due to increased DPS for freeps (likely going up again in U6, that’s a can of worms for another day though). At least that’s been the predominate talking point/QQ since ROI. Here we have a currency update to an in game mechanic that truthfully worked well for both sides. It wasn’t broken, but it’s being fixed, yet the larger problem (see sig + U6 85lvl can of worms) hasn’t been addressed.

I might have missed it but is this Update a FIX?
I understands it as an update, and changes happens... Some good some bad, have your opinion and I will have mine.
Um, Level 85 won't come in U6 it will come in about 9 months... Take it easy.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Second and most importantly, there is a very real distrust of the developer who wrote this diary. I’ve been advised privately not to be too personal and I am trying but let’s just say he hasn’t garnered the faith of creep players. I suspect anything that this particular developer puts forth will be met with skepticism and it’s his own fault, he created the conditions to garner it.

This is something I actually shouldn't comment about becouse I don't know what he have done or didn't.
Though, he is still working for Turbine. He is still doing his job, someone must like him... He does something I think is cool so ye, sure I have no quirell with this guy.
This update he comes with can also bring some new possibilities for both creeps and freeps, I say 'Let's hope'.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

“sounds cool” isn’t enough, we have larger problems in the moors and while it is accurate to make the argument that LOTRO is a PvE centric game, it’s been there choice to amp up the communication on creep side. It shouldnt be surprising that the PvP community has a healthy dose of skepticism.

I didn't say, 'This update Sounds cool, now EM is compleate and as fun as ever!'
I say that this update is Cool, becouse it is IMO.

So I am asking, you and everone else.
'Have you read all the Dev Diaries that havent showed up yet?'

I haven't so I don't know, I am maby wrong... Maby this is the only change to EM, but there could be more that we don't know about yet. as I have stated in other or earlier posts, there will be updates to Stalkers and Weavers as we know... I won't be so pessemistic to say that there won't be updates to other races in EM or maby to the whole mechanism in EM. All we can do is wait and see.

And what I am trying to say that everyone can have their opinion, but why complain about situation in EM before we even know what will happen more...? It's the first Darn Dev Diary for U6!

Regarding the promised "more open communications" from another thread, Sapience, perhaps this would be a good time to try it out. You're clearly aware that people are wondering if we will still be able to earn DP via certain quests and instances (as we can now), or if DP will only be earned when a character earns a new level (as Kelsen seems to indicate in his dev diary). At least, I assume that you're clearly aware since you've taken the time to funnel discussion regarding said issue to this very thread (fair enough - a single place for this discussion makes sense).

You've done the hard work of clicking "Close thread" and typing a few words and a link to this thread - now do the easy work. Communicate. Please.

Most of us here are adults, I think. We're aware that plans change and that things may not be set in stone. It's honestly quite okay to simply say something like, "We don't know if the quests and instances that award DP will continue to do so after U6 - we're discussing that now, and I'll let you know what we've decided when we've decided."

Sure, we'd like to know for certain one way or the other, but if you don't know yet then at least tell us that. If you do know, tell us.

As DP perks are basically being removed from Creep side.

Are there any VIP benefits at all left for people who just play Creep?

No^......................

The dev diary states "In order to accomplish our goals and not impact the PvE experience, we need to create a new currency specifically for use in PvMP." I can hardly see how removal of all destiny point rewards from PvE quests that are not in the ettenmoors could be seen by any sane person as "not impact[ing] the PvE experience." Destiny is required to buy perks that are used throughout the game, and if they take away the primary methods of getting it so as to force us to either endlessly grind newbie alts to 20 and delete them repeatedly (requiring the use of character slots some people do not have) or buy the store equivalent perks it will be almost as ridiculous a change as when they started requiring relic removal scrolls to retrieve relics from LIs. This had better be a misstatement on his part.

This is the first time that the devs are actively working on overhauling pvp. We've been asking for this for years. It's not going to be perfect when U6 is released, but I am glad the devs are finally doing something. Just be patient. I think some of these things are moves in the right direction. Let's figure out the economy first and then start tweaking things like balance, etc. Balance won't matter at all if people stop PvPing. I believe they are trying to encourage more PvP. This is a good thing. Let's get more peeps out there playing. Then doing things like class balance, etc., will have more meaning.

Harl

All freeps will be getting a new currency system, the new currency will be called credits. Credits will be used from now on for all purchases from vendors, auction houses, training, house maintenance and so on, anything that used to take money except for stable fees. You won't lose your money, you can still use it to ride horse routes and you will continue to be able to earn money from festivals. But everything that awarded money before will now award credits and everything that cost money before (besides stables) will cost credits.

But you don't lose your money. And if you want to spend your money (in fact the only way to spend your money) before this change will be to buy levels in the Turbine Store that will cost money to use.

Imagine the above. That's how veteran creeps with large destiny pools feel.

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

I do understand perfectly, I have been playing creep a few weeks now becouse freeps are OP and I don't like to mow over creeps till they log out.
I know what happens in the moors, atleast at Gilrain.

You stated:

I just can't understand this complaining before it's even released, I think it sounds cool but I hope 10k is not the max or the prices will be lower...

I explained why, so I’m confused were you educated since your initial post or were you aware prior to posting it? The complaining can be traced to multiple issues.

I might have missed it but is this Update a FIX?
I understands it as an update, and changes happens... Some good some bad, have your opinion and I will have mine.
Um, Level 85 won't come in U6 it will come in about 9 months... Take it easy.

Before instructing me to take it easy you should probably use context to help perspective. I’m talking about macro issues in the moors, this is part of it and waving a hand and saying “that’s in 9 months” doesn’t negate the larger issues in the moors. It’s tied in and it’s certainly reasonable to use the information we know as part of our rational for arguments made.

Though, he is still working for Turbine. He is still doing his job, someone must like him... He does something I think is cool so ye, sure I have no quirell with this guy.
This update he comes with can also bring some new possibilities for both creeps and freeps, I say 'Let's hope'.

And you’re entitled to that, just like I am entitled to my view. Mine happens to be based on what’s been said vs. what’s been done, your’s appears to be based on hope which is fine, not my cup of tea.

I didn't say, 'This update Sounds cool, now EM is compleate and as fun as ever!'
I say that this update is Cool, becouse it is IMO.

So I am asking, you and everone else.
'Have you read all the Dev Diaries that havent showed up yet?'

Indeed you didn’t say that, you almost did, none the less my apologies. No I haven’t read the dev diaries that haven’t shown up, I’ve read the tangible factual data that is present now. However your argument is based on faith, which is based on................. ?

And what I am trying to say that everyone can have their opinion, but why complain about situation in EM before we even know what will happen more...? It's the first Darn Dev Diary for U6!

Because I pointed out, it’s my opinion (which everyone can have per you right?) that it’s an unnecessary change to a system that worked well for both sides and does very little to correct the imbalances as articulated in my signature. It actually makes them more pronounced.

Removing Destiny Points from PvE quests? I hope this is a "work in progress" and subject to alteration. Otherwise it is a blatant grab at forcing raiding players to use the Turbine store for the perk buffs. Just like the Relic Removal scrolls.

I am concerned about this. I look forward to Turbines rebuttal.

EDIT:

Specifically my main problem with this is removing something from VIP players that has been available since SoA days. Imagine if the cook profession trail foods were removed from crafting, any you havent crafted before the update must now be purchased from the Turbine store!

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Removing Destiny Points from PvE quests? I hope this is a "work in progress" and subject to alteration. Otherwise it is a blatant grab at forcing raiding players to use the Turbine store for the perk buffs. Just like the Relic Removal scrolls.

I am concerned about this. I look forward to Turbines rebuttal.

No one has clarified what will or will not be happening to quests on the PvE side of the game. I am hoping Turbine is just taking time to respond to all concerns at once and that there is a response soon.

Originally Posted by Thornglen

No one has clarified what will or will not be happening to quests on the PvE side of the game. I am hoping Turbine is just taking time to respond to all concerns at once and that there is a response soon.

From the dev diary:

"The role of Destiny will be changed to a strictly “perk” currency THAT WILL ONLY BE ACQUIRED THROUGH LEVELING."

Emphasis mine. That's pretty clear to me.

Originally Posted by aardnebby

From the dev diary:

"The role of Destiny will be changed to a strictly “perk” currency THAT WILL ONLY BE ACQUIRED THROUGH LEVELING."

Emphasis mine. That's pretty clear to me.

Which could be the case, but the diary was focused on PvMP and not on the PvE side of the game, so we have requested clarification. If it is the intent to make gaining a PvE level the only way to gain DP, then what had been an ongoing benefit of VIP subscriptions has been made into a limited resource. That would not be a small thing to some people, so having Turbine clear up any confusion is a great first step to actually being able to discuss any changes without having to speculate or guess at intent.

Originally Posted by Thornglen

That would not be a small thing to some people, so having Turbine clear up any confusion is a great first step to actually being able to discuss any changes without having to speculate or guess at intent.

At this point this is exactly what we need. We need someone to gather up the concerns and bullet responses. Sapience is very good at this, even when its things we don’t want to hear.

Originally Posted by Telcharan

I can hardly see how removal of all destiny point rewards from PvE quests that are not in the ettenmoors could be seen by any sane person as "not impact[ing] the PvE experience." Destiny is required to buy perks that are used throughout the game, and if they take away the primary methods of getting it so as to force us to either endlessly grind newbie alts to 20 and delete them repeatedly.

It wouldn't surprise me if this attitude was exactly what they were trying to get away from. Perhaps their vision is to free players from being expected to have DP perks up all the time when raiding or PvPing and remake them as something to dab on when you are stretching a bit while leveling or for a special occasion.

By aggressively removing the supply of them, they might be attempting to remove the pressure (and incentive) to do things like level alts to 20 repeatedly or make a creep just to farm DPs for 'perks' used when you raid. If they were about to do that then nobody would have to spend time grinding DPs when they could be playing for fun and if you liked doing the things you did to grind them, you can continue to do them, you just won't be getting DPs from them.

Try to take a minute (and a deep breath) and say to yourself, "OK, its different and raiding will be a little harder since I won't have DPs buffs up except on special occasions, but neither will anybody else and I won't have to waste time grinding them." and see if you feel better or not.

As to taking them (mostly) out of the game, they were never attached to any specific class/race/achievement. Its not like were cooking to a chef or stealth to a burglar, everybody had access to them, and they did the same thing for everybody.

UPDATE: As mentioned above, it would reduce the incentive to a VIP subscription which I didn't take into account. On the other hand, it would reduce the advantage in PvP and raiding that those with VIP subs have over FtPs.

[Yes, this means I prefer that all DPs perks were turned off in the Moors since it would imbalance new characters/freeps from veterans who had a billion and one DP saved up in their wallet [I have around 350K I think]. I also feel this way about the mounted speed buff so what do I know.]

Originally Posted by Telcharan

Destiny is required to buy perks that are used throughout the game, and if they take away the primary methods of getting it so as to force us to either endlessly grind newbie alts to 20 and delete them repeatedly.

Here is an example that might clarify what they might be trying to accomplish. Imagine that the DPs to 'perk' your Warden for raiding could only be earned by spending time playing a level 20 or less Minstrel and casting healing abilities on characters of level 20 or less.

So for each raid you had to budget a certain amount of time to play and heal on your Minstrel in the starting areas just to be fully prepared even if you found that boring and unfun. Its not that different from feeling pressured to spend time playing a creep just to farm the DPs needed to perk your character for raiding. Maybe Turbine thinks that removing the incentive to do something you don't find fun as a precondition to doing the stuff you do enjoy will make it a better game.

Originally Posted by BadgerB

It wouldn't surprise me if this attitude was exactly what they were trying to get away from. Perhaps their vision is to free players from being expected to have DP perks up all the time when raiding or PvPing and remake them as something to dab on when you are stretching a bit while leveling or for a special occasion.

I doubt that was the reason. To me it clearly looks like they want to force VIPs to the store. By removing something that was previously free and putting it in the Store.

See Relic Removal Scrolls.

Originally Posted by BadgerB

By aggressively removing the supply of them, they might be attempting to remove the pressure (and incentive) to do things like level alts to 20 repeatedly or make a creep just to farm DPs for 'perks' used when you raid. If they were about to do that then nobody would have to spend time grinding DPs when they could be playing for fun and if you liked doing the things you did to grind them, you can continue to do them, you just won't be getting DPs from them.

Try to take a minute (and a deep breath) and say to yourself, "OK, its different and raiding will be a little harder since I won't have DPs buffs up except on special occasions, but neither will anybody else and I won't have to waste time grinding them." and see if you feel better or not.

The thing is. It's not a grind to get DP. You can get plenty of DP by just playing the game. Instance quests gives DP. And on Creep side you don't have to grind DP at all. It comes naturally while playing.

By removing the source of DP from PvMP quests and (maybe? probably?) instance quests, they are turning it into a grind. It's not a grind now.

Originally Posted by BadgerB

UPDATE: As mentioned above, it would reduce the incentive to a VIP subscription which I didn't take into account. On the other hand, it would reduce the advantage in PvP and raiding that those with VIP subs have over FtPs.

And why shouldn't VIPs have an advantage? By taking away the DP perks from Creep side, there is no benefit left for VIPs who play Creep.

Originally Posted by BadgerB

It wouldn't surprise me if this attitude was exactly what they were trying to get away from. Perhaps their vision is to free players from being expected to have DP perks up all the time when raiding or PvPing and remake them as something to dab on when you are stretching a bit while leveling or for a special occasion.

By aggressively removing the supply of them, they might be attempting to remove the pressure (and incentive) to do things like level alts to 20 repeatedly or make a creep just to farm DPs for 'perks' used when you raid. If they were about to do that then nobody would have to spend time grinding DPs when they could be playing for fun and if you liked doing the things you did to grind them, you can continue to do them, you just won't be getting DPs from them.

Try to take a minute (and a deep breath) and say to yourself, "OK, its different and raiding will be a little harder since I won't have DPs buffs up except on special occasions, but neither will anybody else and I won't have to waste time grinding them." and see if you feel better or not.

As to taking them (mostly) out of the game, they were never attached to any specific class/race/achievement. Its not like were cooking to a chef or stealth to a burglar, everybody had access to them, and they did the same thing for everybody.

UPDATE: As mentioned above, it would reduce the incentive to a VIP subscription which I didn't take into account. On the other hand, it would reduce the advantage in PvP and raiding that those with VIP subs have over FtPs.

[Yes, this means I prefer that all DPs perks were turned off in the Moors since it would imbalance new characters/freeps from veterans who had a billion and one DP saved up in their wallet [I have around 350K I think]. I also feel this way about the mounted speed buff so what do I know.]

Nobody has to spend time grinding DP now. If there is anybody out there who is leveling multiple characters to 20, deleting them, and repeating the process then they're doing it horribly, horribly wrong. Since a few months after the launch of MoM you don't even need to step into the Moors to earn DP, since many of the instances have repeatable quests associated that award a nice amount of DP.

When I transferred to Elendilmir a few years ago, I left about 150k DP back on Silverlode despite having never purposely tried to earn any and only being in the Moors for maybe 4-5 hours total on one little creep that was rank 3 and cost me more DP than I ever earned on it. In other words, people haven't needed to make a creep to farm DP for at least three years.

There's no "pressure" to have DP for raids. Sure, we use it for some encounters - especially when first learning DPS race bosses - but DP perks are not required for raiding.

The potential issue - if the ability to earn DP is severely restricted - is that the only people who control whether or not DP is needed for raiding work at Turbine. The instance designers are fully capable of designing encounters balanced so that a group with the best gear, using optimal skill rotations, and making no mistakes will still need an extra 3-5% DPS boost from DP perks. If they do that now... no big deal - it's just a tough encounter that requires people to spend Destiny Points, which are easy enough to obtain through purely PvE methods that don't involve the Moors. If they restrict the acquisition solely to dinging a new level on new characters and then balance encounters with the assumption that people are using DP-style perks, then we're looking at an awful choice between endlessly leveling new characters (not terribly enticing, especially for busy people) or just straight up spending cash to be able to beat encounters (a completely distasteful option for many).

However, all we're left with at this point is speculation. And we only have speculation because no one from Turbine has stepped forward to clarify what exactly Kelsen meant by saying that DP will only be acquired via leveling. Or even to say that they're not sure if that's entirely true or not.

Honestly, I think someone at Turbine has a fetish for reading wild speculation, panic, and mild fear on these forums, and thus forbids those who could give us answers from doing so so that he or she may continue to enjoy reading our posts with his or her office door closed.

Like others, I don't understand where exactly the change to currency will "encourage PVP over PvE". I do not come to the moors to PvE. I expect very few do (and for those who do, its mainly to grind DP for perks in raid/PvE).

In fact, the majority of creeps use PvE mainly to get through the begining 5 or 6 ranks so they MIGHT have a fighting chance in the moors. They dont enjoy collecting logs, killing slugs, flipping the same outposts on the same map over and over again, but do so because they must. PvP just isn't an option at lower ranks, unless we ball together and hope to zerg a few unlucky freeps....which will:

A) just cause the freeps to log off or go back to PvE
B) Have them call in reinforcements and it will be more zerging - just with bigger groups


Freeps, on the other hand, dont really have this issue. They can roll up a toon to rank 70ish and be able to stand their ground against a large majority of the creep population. So what more incentive do they need for PvP? Wont the current imbalances lead to low rank freeps reaching currency cap faster than low rank creeps?
And applying the currency change to provide Freeps with the Armour (which devs deem a neccesity) earlier in the game? Well they can get very nice PvE gear outside the moors...not sure where that's comming from.

How....ugh.... so confused..... how did you come to the conclusion that players who come to the moors - a PvP arena - need more encouragement to PvP? And what lead you to conclude that a change to the currency/reward system would encourage this behaviour?

As Thorgrum has said, there's and elephant in the room... and its to the point were we cant move.We are suffocating and you keep jamming more stuff in it. If there is ANY REASON FOR A LACK OF PVP IN THE MOORS IT HAS TO DO WITH IMBALANCE.

Currently we are in a situation where freeps hit harder, rank faster, and get to choose when they want to wipe the map blue, or go build up there gear in PvE so they can do it faster the next time. Creeps... well we are there, waiting for it. High Ranked creeps are leaving the game, a constant spawn of greenies come into the moors, get pwned and quit (farmed essentially.. maybe harvested would be a better analogy), those that do decide to stick around are left in a population of low ranked creeps, with only a few high ranks to lead them (and thats when they want to - so much infamy is needed at higher ranks most of them would rather solo than train the next crop). Mass zergling is now the name of the game as creeps cant stand toe to toe, and freeps are sick of getting zerged, so they do the same.

Meh, on a positive note PvP is getting some attention so thankyou for that....just maybe... write down "Imbalance" in big letters on your white board in the PvP conference room (or wherever the PvP devs meet) and start from there.

Actually I think this makes a lot of sense.

You get PvMP awards for doing PvMP quests and opposing forces kills. i.e. Commendations

You get PvE awards for doing Pve quests. i.e. DP

This makes a lot of sense and if Commendations are like DP, account based I see a lot of happy people. If they are creep / freep based, then you need to discuss that with the Devs and have it changed ASAP!

I can understand how folks with tons of DP earned could be a little upset, but they have warned you if you wish to spend that DP for stuff in the Moors and "do it now!" Which is very good as they are giving you notice instead of just telling you after the fact.