As per usual I'm going to disregard the posts made within 12 hours of the announcement, since most of them are going to be the typical knee-jerk reactions and frankly reading them is a chore.
Honestly, I'm glad they are going to put a focus more on actual PvMP combat, so that part sounds good to me.
I can understand the frustration since creeps are presently underpowered, I think how well this works out long term depends on how good the upcoming spider/warg changes are, future revamps to other creep classes and obviously changes to other aspects in general.
And on a major note, HEALERS WILL GET CREDIT. That part seems huge to me, and my WL is going to be very happy for it.
Presently undecided on these costs, I'll have to play with it and see how they match up with the rewards.
This cap is the most worrying part to me, honestly. I can see new creeps hitting that ceiling rather quickly, but I might be wrong on that. We'll see. :/
Also nice that present barter items will convert to the new currency, too.
Throughout Update 6 and Update 7, we will be modifying the economy of the Ettenmoors by replacing Destiny with a new capped currency called “Commendations”. Commendations will be the primary currency for both Freeps and Creeps, requiring a re-costing of all barter vendors and skill trainers in PvMP. Read more in today's Developer Diary from Jared "Kelsan" Pruett and post your comments here!
I am kinda happy as I made that suggestion back in the day (like some other people). This change is a step in the good direction in my very humble opinion pvp wise.
About the DP.. well I hope we'll get more explanation.
Where is the new map ?? ;-)
If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
When F2P was released, VIP players were ASSURED there would be benefits to paying a monthly subscription, one of those benefits was PvMP would remain a subscription only area. Turbine broke that promise when they allowed F2P players on creepside.
This is not the way I remember it. From the start, I'd been hearing that as soon as there is a workable solution, Turbine was going to allow some kind of access to PvMP to Free and/or Premium accounts. It took a while to get there, but I never had the impression that it was meant to be VIP only forever.
I agree they'd have to be very careful about how they open up freep-side play, and I don't know if there are even systems in place that would allow for rented access via a Store purchase, but done correctly it could be a good thing for all players. Emphasis on the done correctly.
I dont like where this is going. Now you gonna take all our destiny points away, which we have used alot of time to get. I guess its just a matter of time before you take our gold and make tp the only currency in the game.
I'm not sure caps are a very good thing to have in pvp. Once I unlocked everything in GW and capped out faction rep there was nothing to do, I don't foresee rank 15 any time soon but what is there to do for a player at rank 15 with capped renown and commendations? Any plan on removing the cap for renown?
posting on a banned account. GET AT ME JESUS, WHAT NOW?!
Its just another way to milk that cash cow called lotro. Ill bet you that there will be strong connection between tshop and this new currency. God this game is getting worse and worse...
I already don't play my creeps as much as I used to because of the horrid balance issues since the release of RoI. Getting kicked around by the freeps like an unloved stuffed animal isn't particularly entertaining to me.
I've been watching on the freep side as you introduce more and more gear grind into a game that doesn't need it, maybe because you want to make sure that the top 1% hardcore players have something to do when they hit the level cap on all their toons a week after it is raised. If you are looking to add currency sink, then add a proper currency sink, don't just shunt it into a grind. Inflation is already pretty rampant on Brandywine, did you ever consider that it might be related to all gold leftover from the grinding? Now you are talking about adding a new grind currency to the mix, and regulating it with a weird *currency cap* mechanic, I mean, come on, really?
You guys keep attempting to engineer ways around certain behaviors, but totally miss the root of the problem. Do yourselves a favor, hire a sociologist and maybe a economist, or at least consider the reasons behind the behaviors you wish to minimize before you butcher parts of the game.
When you start monkeying with a complex system, little changes can have a big impact. Heck, I used to think nothing of dropping 50TP on a task reset while leveling new toons (hey, what's 50 cents?). When I realized that you jacked it up to 100TP, I basically said "oh heck no". By jacking up the price, you lost out on what could have been multiple sales of 50TP each. Do I even need to bother asking what behavior you were trying to affect by doubling the price? I'm sure there would have been a better way.
I am kinda happy as I made that suggestion back in the day (like some other people). This change is a step in the good direction in my very humble opinion pvp wise.
About the DP.. well I hope we'll get more explanation.
Where is the new map ?? ;-)
I think I like this change.... I need to test it, this is one of the worst written dev diaries I've ever seen. From what I understood though: PvP instead of PvE sounds great.
And now to why I quoted Morningstar.... Yes, I think its on the way. Turbine now has 3 devs working on PvP BETWEEN expansions... turbine is finally committing resources to PvMP, the new map would be HUGE for marketing....
[EN-RP] Laurelin Surgite atque resurgite dum agni leones fient.
Don't understand the defeat within 60s of retreat thing... Maybe you could elaborate a little bit. Seems way more complicated than it needs to be.
I kind of like the rank removal on pvmp gear. Hopefully the "seasonal" gear that's rumored will be comparable to pve instance gear - for those of us who quit playing the game for pve.
Basically, if you kill someone, you get the commendations ect. If that player that died gets killed within 60 seconds of releasing, their commendation value is reduced by 20%. That continues to happen until the player is at a -90% commendation value.
And for goodness sake people, weren't more than half of you complaining about the PvE in the moors? They just made less incentive to PvE, and more incentive to PvP. Getting DP has never been hard, and I doubt that it will be that terrible after this change goes through too.
Quit your yappin!
My main point of concern is "DP only through leveling." I'm not sure if that's just a misspoken phrase or not. There are certain quests in PVE that reward DP, and completing certain instances also reward DP. DP gain tailed off a bit post level 65 in ROI.
Now, if they are getting rid of DP via quests and instances, I think that's not really a good thing. It's one of the few perks left solely to VIPs. To be clear, I'm not saying "OMG PVP IS EFFECTING PVE!" I'm saying that something bigger may be going on here. But then, parts of this diary aren't exactly crystal clear. So I'm waiting to see how this shakes out.
If this change in any ways means I have to (or, for all practical purposes, will have to) go to the store to get what I once could freely get in game--like DP perks--I am out of here. And that is exactly what it sounds like it will do, so I hope clarification will come soon.
This change also sounds quite unfair to vet players, those who have earned lots of DP and a high rank, and unless vet players are in some new way substantially rewarded the change will drive even more people to other games. Turbine has had a bad habit of not doing much for the vets lately, and vet creeps in particular.
Of course, anything to bring the focus to PVMP and away from PVE is welcome. So how bout a new map then?
I'm not sure caps are a very good thing to have in pvp. Once I unlocked everything in GW and capped out faction rep there was nothing to do, I don't foresee rank 15 any time soon but what is there to do for a player at rank 15 with capped renown and commendations? Any plan on removing the cap for renown?
It sounds to me like that's what they're trying to work around with this change. Under the current system, once you reach the top rank you can't go any higher.
It sounds like with the new system the commendations will "reset" every few months? Whether this means everyone gets set back to zero, or what I'm not exactly sure.
Firstly, this diary seems like work done in haste, not much details. Like, "Oh sh... 20 mins till 5pm, i gotta get this work done."
Secondly, its not what you think is most important, regarding the armor changes... ask the players first.
Some people worked hard for armor, and may believe that you should introduce new PvMP Items BEFORE taking them as not ranked requirements...
Thirdly, I appreciate the Look-into-PvMP.
Keep up the good communication. But make it right
P.S. Clarify the Stone problems, What will happen to the delving? Some people enjoy the free time off in the delving to get pots, etc.
COME INTO THE MOORS, AND FEEL THE POUNCE OF BORNTOOWN! Borntown - Champion - 75 r7!!! - *OG* Borntoown - Warg - 75 r7!!!- Pirate Lords - back in action
P.S. Clarify the Stone problems, What will happen to the delving? Some people enjoy the free time off in the delving to get pots, etc.
you could find there consumables now.
Q. What happens to the existing Ettenmoors/Ettendeep barter tokens?
[..]
Enemies in the Delving of Frór that previously only dropped barter tokens now have a chance to drop consumables for both Freeps and Creeps. All vendors that previously bartered for these tokens have been converted over to Commendations.
Does anyone recall a thread, a post, a comment in ooc, glff anything that touched on a desire for a new currency system for the moors? Im serious, please post it. Sure its great they are looking at PvP, this is what kelsen has been working on, really? I mean anyone with a half an hour can see clearly from the fourms or actually playing the game this isnt the problem with the moors.
They are taking something away, and replacing it with something else that will be based on combat results against toons on the freepside that are balanced for a pve game. Truly these people do not get it lol. It always surprised me when I saw things on other site about turbine, im no longer surprised.
Maybe they will implement an instance finder in the moors too considering how we have been clamoring for it. lol
Getting DP has never been hard, and I doubt that it will be that terrible after this change goes through too.
Quit your yappin!
If the only way to get Destiny Points is through leveling it will be hard.
Sounds very much like the Relic Removal Scroll. Telling us they're reducing the grind (you don't have to PvE for pots anymore!) and acting like previous essential tools are no longer needed, thus turning them into "convenience".
1. There is absolutely NO NEED to introduce this. It's clearly nothing but an attempt to mirror SW:TOR. Destiny works fine as it is, don't touch it.
2. The 10k cap is just a stupid idea to keep people from being able to save up the points they want. So what happens when the player has all they want from 'commendations'? They sit at the cap for a few months, losing out on getting thousands of commendations over that time because of the cap, only to find that when new things are introduced, all their work was meaningless because they still only have enough for 1 or 2 new pieces, not the whole set like the effort they put in should give. All of this because of a stupid cap. If you're going to go ahead and do this ridiculous idea, remove the cap.
3. I like giving healers an incentive to heal people but not at the cost of the person being healed. They have no choice in the matter. Imagine if you're there fighting someone and a healer comes along and just sticks a quick heal on you then watches till you kill the enemy. Bam, your hard work has rewarded them. This will lead to nothing but people abusing the system.
I seriously can't understand why devs exist. They clearly don't read the forums and any attempts at fixing actual customer complaints are met with a completely unnecessary new currency put in place that doesn't do anything of value.
Does anyone recall a thread, a post, a comment in ooc, glff anything that touched on a desire for a new currency system for the moors? [...]
Most of the threads have probably been purged by now but I know that probably since around 2007 or so there have been people asking for PvMP rewards being gotten from PvPing and not from PvEing in a PVP area. Also according to the Dev Diary you will also get some Commendation from killing NPCs and quests so it really shouldn't be forcing anyone into a specific play style.
Don't know why people are complaining about only geting perk destiny from levelling, I get 2k destiny each time I waltz through a 15 minute 3-man challenge.........
Like the idea of being able to get all traits and skills for my weaver though - barely play her and see pvp as a fun minigame, sidequest from pve when nothing else is happening. But keep some gate on it - those who spend hours a day in the moors should in theory have access to things I don't put the effort into.
Don't know why people are complaining about only geting perk destiny from levelling, I get 2k destiny each time I waltz through a 15 minute 3-man challenge.........
Well depending on what they mean with that statement. The 2k Destiny Point reward for doing that quest could be removed.
And as destiny points are server bound it will be very hard to gain Desinty Points for those who play Freep/Creep on different servers.
Don't know why people are complaining about only geting perk destiny from levelling, I get 2k destiny each time I waltz through a 15 minute 3-man challenge.........
That is one of the questions people have, though. Will that remain a source of DP, or will the rewards be changed so the only source is gaining a level? With Turbine's recent promise of better communication, I hope to see some clarifications as soon as they are able to gather up all the player concerns and questions.
That is one of the questions people have, though. Will that remain a source of DP, or will the rewards be changed so the only source is gaining a level? With Turbine's recent promise of better communication, I hope to see some clarifications as soon as they are able to gather up all the player concerns and questions.
I'd have to assume Free Range (final Chicken Play quest - repeatable) would remain a source of DP...
I think this will help kill off the Tyrant and Chieftain-Farmers-Anonymous teams. My guess is they'll just go do pve freepside where they belong.
Maybe, just MAYBE it will get one freep leader to pvp instead of pve = WIN.
I like that it attempts to encourage healing. Now, if only creeps could kill through freep bubbles and heals, we could have some fun.
My big concern:
This isn't being rolled out as a complete program all at once. It's coming in at least 2 updates, spread goodness-only-knows how far apart. Why? Didn't Turbine learn from the Instance Finder that we do not want incomplete ideas pushed out? Can't this just wait until it's done?
THEY are copying a game mechanic from a competiting MMO (Cough! I'm your Father Luke! Cough! Cough!) only AFTER we asked for this very game mechanic to be introduced over four years ago. This change speaks ill for what remains of Moors play.
Do take heed and use whatever DP you've accumulated so far (Creeps) to purchase all available racial/class skills/skins/corruptions at this point.
Furthermore, this currency change IS GOING TO BE A JOKE ON ALREADY DYING/DEAD SERVERS THAT HAVE LITTLE TO NO PVP and THUS PLAYERS WILL NOT BE GAINING CURRENCY OUTSIDE OF QUESTING (which according to THEM will only reward nominal currency gains in comparison to those gained via PvP'ing).
Such system works in many other mmorpgs, just to mention WoW(honor) or Rift(favor) and I bet in plenty others.
Also what do you don't understand about the defeat dr system? It has been in the game for years, when you kill someone repeatedly you get lesser renown/infamy, now commendations.
Lastly, how long have been pvmpers crying that people should not pve in ettenmoors? Now they are trying to fix it.
Now comment on the dev diary:
1) Why is there a cap on comm? Honestly it should be increased to at least 30k, or completely removed.
2)
What will happen with DP?
Will the only source for DP be leveling/buying in Store?
If I don't spend hundreds of thousands DP on my creep before these changes go live, after update they will be useless for my creep?
3) Healers getting rewards for healing! Wow only took like 5? years to implement!
They just introduced MORE PvE in the Moors for Creeps (Sigil farming to the Nth Degree!!!) so they ARE NOT trying to promote PvP with this currency change.
+ Rewards for healing. This should address the current problems with lack of healing and quick fights due to dps-a-thon.
+ Diminishing returns on farming the same characters repeatedly - makes FCing/rez camping/griefing behavior less attractive.
+ Less PvE for the sole purpose of grinding gear. Hopefully this will be encouraging to have people in the Moors who are there to fight not farm.
+ Hopefully these changes indicate that they are serious about fixing the problems with the pvp system and are working on the new zone we were promised at ROI announcement. Balancing DPS between sides should be at the top of the list now. hint hint
Negative or Unsure:
- What about DP for future? Concerned that they are going to remove our dp that we have worked hard to attain or make it so difficult to attain for the sole purpose of boosting sales of the DP buffs.
- Caps on commendations. What's the point of this? Are we going to get screwed on this conversion ratio on our stash of stones?
- Possible exploits on healing contributions and lack of rewards for other support classes. Does healing someone out of group reward you solo commendation rates? Are you going to make dps classes more of the glass canons they SHOULD be rather than bubble/heal/sprint/etc. and never die? Are you going to boost creep dps to match freep dps now since otherwise with healers returning to the Moors, no commendations will be earned by creeps without zerging for kills with meager dps and lack of reliable escape skills. (hint: The dps balance needs to be done BEFORE this is implemented or this will hurt creeps even more.) Sounds like this will encourage even more zerg hugging on both sides from first glance.
- Is this going to be fair for both high and low population servers? I'm not sure... I need to think about this more.
How about removing the rank requirements for creep skills then since you've done that for people who buy them with TP? At least then everyone could buy their skills before their creep dp is useless. Also, if you believe that freeps need gear at lower ranks, why is it that you think creeps don't need to have their skills at low ranks to be competitive? Balance between the sides would be much more effective if all creeps had access to all skills like the level 75 freeps do. Let rank unlock +% to dps/+% mits/+overall survivability/+rank appearances and racial traits.
/my2cents
To the person who asked about what benefit it has on the shield wall guardian, it shouldn't negatively affect them at all either way. You can only shield wall when grouped as it is, iirc, so you would still earn commendations for your contribution to the group's survivability. I'm wondering if damage bubbling skills like WL bubble, guard SW, cappies bubble will count as "healing" since it absorbs damage to the player used on.
PS: If this is coming out in a month or so, we really need to know about how these conversions are going to play out so longtime pvpers with deep DP stocks and stashes of barter items can take appropriate action ahead of time to avoid capping out at release and losing things they earned. Please address this for us!
Last edited by Aethniniel; Feb 16 2012 at 09:12 PM.
L a n d r o v a l | Aethrien || Aerlise || Mumsy || Aethirien |
I posted this in the Creep Forum, but I'll repeat it here.
The suggested combat formula awards Commendations only for doing damage, or healing those doing damage. This leaves out the contribution of Crowd Control to fights, and puts classes based on CC (like the Weaver) at a disadvantage.
In many small fights, the first 2-3 skills I use are CC skills without damage. This is usually to set up the kill for the dps classes in the fellowship. Since fights end so quickly, it is possible that I would get no Commendations in this case, even though I made as great a contribution as the others.
The dev's should add application of CC skills to the defeated player as a condition for contribution.
A few quote -> comment/suggestion i hope you will consider taking into consideration:
Replace Destiny with a new universal PvMP currency (Commendations) for both Freeps and Creeps.
Is this one shared like destiny across the server between creeps and Freeps alike, character specific or across the whole account?
Edit:
Since it is a currency that is shared amongst all characters on your account
That's good news, is it shared for multiple servers so I can play Freep on one server and creep on another and have shared commendation pools? Some server probably have good action at different times of day.
No. Commendations are a per-server,
Ah well that's too bad - You should work on your inter-server technology - maybe one day I will actually consider moving one of my characters, the prices are insane atm considering that other mmo's have free transfers or at least cheaper.
Place a cap on Commendations as part of a move to create a “PvMP Seasons” mechanic that encourages/requires player investment with each content update.
Similar to other games in the genre that has been fairly successful.
My most important point in this post is this:
Think about how this will make the rush for new updates even more tight and the servers "emptier" late update. I propose you keep “PvMP Seasons” unrelated to content updates (aside from expansions). The mayor story updates with books and group content keep people coming back to LotRO atm and the lack of new content coming out besides festivals makes them leave after a while. Put the “PvMP Seasons” upgrades into those periods where activity is on the down-low to keep people in the game.
Diminishing returns stuff bla bla...The pricing scheme below is for Free People PvMP rewards...
Those DR numbers will surely be changed around a bit before launch, hard to say how it will affect play without proper testing.
As for the price scheme it's good to see the removal of the DoF farming needed to get PvMP gear, that's quite a dull affair.
...providing players with incremental goals (“I’m saving for my helm… only 20 more kills!”)
Was watching 5 Inch Floppy today and here is a good example of behavior modification if anyone is interested :P I'm all for it tho.
Q. Are these values set in stone?
Absolutely not. These are the initial values and they will likely go through a series of changes as we enter the testing phase.
I certainly hope they are, from a quick skim they could use some tweaking, is there anyway to sign up for testing in EU so when this launches we got some decent numbers?
Thanks for reading and I hope you at least consider my main point about splitting PvE and PvMP content updates to spread the joy across the year similar to how festivals and the new treasure are spread across the year.
"Don't see Lord of the Rings as a fantasy, don't think of it as a long gone myth that never actually happened, just know Middle-Earth exists, or existed, and it is happening as you watch it.''
Most of the threads have probably been purged by now but I know that probably since around 2007 or so there have been people asking for PvMP rewards being gotten from PvPing and not from PvEing in a PVP area. Also according to the Dev Diary you will also get some Commendation from killing NPCs and quests so it really shouldn't be forcing anyone into a specific play style.
The dev diary is written by Kelsen, Im choosing not to believe a word of it for good reason, I would urge you to do the same. 2007 you say? before my time, I find this distraction some what funny, mostly sad. This will generate chit chat for a while, but alas the inbalance of the moors hasnt been addressed (see sig).
Thanks for the reply though, good to know someone mentioned it 5 years ago. Wonder if any other mmo's are doing it
1. There is absolutely NO NEED to introduce this. It's clearly nothing but an attempt to mirror SW:TOR. Destiny works fine as it is, don't touch it.
Nah, this has been asked before and it was a needed change. If it took the Bioware to kick WB/Turbine in the balls to make it happens it is all good. Imo its even better as proposed since I asked something like the skirmish barter back in the days, so its better since it reflects the revamped barter.
There are still holes to fill about the future of DP, but I think that what Kelsan meant was DP is for perk only (I'm fine with that). Getting it by level (good). My concern is about the quest that gives DP, do the pve quest will still give dp ?
2. The 10k cap is just a stupid idea to keep people from being able to save up the points they want. So what happens when the player has all they want from 'commendations'? They sit at the cap for a few months, losing out on getting thousands of commendations over that time because of the cap, only to find that when new things are introduced, all their work was meaningless because they still only have enough for 1 or 2 new pieces, not the whole set like the effort they put in should give. All of this because of a stupid cap. If you're going to go ahead and do this ridiculous idea, remove the cap.
I think it is silly as well but only time will tell. He talks about pvp season, from there we can extrapolate on stuff but as long as we haven't seen it, we should mind much .. yet..
3. I like giving healers an incentive to heal people but not at the cost of the person being healed. They have no choice in the matter. Imagine if you're there fighting someone and a healer comes along and just sticks a quick heal on you then watches till you kill the enemy. Bam, your hard work has rewarded them. This will lead to nothing but people abusing the system.
That pissed me off back in the 2007 days that healer was not rewarded for their works especially as they were rare and prized. I've enjoyed Warhammer a while for that (at least I could rank from doing my job). It can be abused, but since its commendation only and it is limited well, it doesn't look bad on paper though I'd like to see infamy/renown gain from that too.. but I can only dream..
I seriously can't understand why devs exist. They clearly don't read the forums and any attempts at fixing actual customer complaints are met with a completely unnecessary new currency put in place that doesn't do anything of value.
I can't understand why Turbine does not hire Mark Jacobs, for the good and bad of what that mean....
Can't wait to see both DDo and lotro next updates..
If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
Does anyone recall a thread, a post, a comment in ooc, glff anything that touched on a desire for a new currency system for the moors? Im serious, please post it. Sure its great they are looking at PvP, this is what kelsen has been working on, really? I mean anyone with a half an hour can see clearly from the fourms or actually playing the game this isnt the problem with the moors.
They are taking something away, and replacing it with something else that will be based on combat results against toons on the freepside that are balanced for a pve game. Truly these people do not get it lol. It always surprised me when I saw things on other site about turbine, im no longer surprised.
Maybe they will implement an instance finder in the moors too considering how we have been clamoring for it. lol
I remember a few threads suggesting something along these lines last year or so. I remember suggesting something not far from this, in fact. Only as a means to acquire gear, however, and not replacing DP. This was largely in response to the need to PvE in the moors to earn gear.
COME INTO THE MOORS, AND FEEL THE POUNCE OF BORNTOOWN! Borntown - Champion - 75 r7!!! - *OG* Borntoown - Warg - 75 r7!!!- Pirate Lords - back in action
Tomorrow the unaddressed problem with the moors will still be there (see sig) and this unnecessary distraction will still be in place. Its not a matter of being calm, its a matter of bewilderment. Fine this was mentioned years ago, or a year ago as a good idea.... Hey great turbine is doing something in the moors!!!!
Its like the instance finder, have you used it? I was logged on freepside for over 3 hours last week sitting in the que not a dam thing. They continue to make changes players dont want and dont use, meantime legit issues(see sig, lol) seem to fall on deaf ears.
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COME INTO THE MOORS,
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