Thread: Update 6: Commendations Developer Diary

I sincerely wish that Turbine would spend more time making things people want like more Kinship options, better housing, cosmetic weapons, a new PVMP zone instead of fixing things that aren't broken and no one ever requested or desired.

Originally Posted by Elfheart

I sincerely wish that Turbine would spend more time making things people want like more Kinship options, better housing, cosmetic weapons, a new PVMP zone instead of fixing things that aren't broken and no one ever requested or desired.

Ah but effectively nerfing destiny perks and forcing people to buy the buffs from the store instead is a lot cheaper to do and will make them more money. I don't understand why people are surprised at this move.....

Long time; fifth(?) time. I don't think I have ever complained about turbine on the forums and have had very few posts so I may not have much forum cred, but this time I needed too. Here are my views on these changes.

I'm happy PvMP is getting some love, I don't know if its good or bad because I don't do it enough to have a real opinion.

What do the avid pvpers want from the rest of the community? I would assume the balance changes I see all over the pvp forums, new zones/areans, and I would also assume MORE players playing PvMP. Players like me, easy to kill, will go freep or creep, and just go to the moors for fun with their friends.

Over the past year or so (and some time before f2p also) I have kept a subscription to Lotro. When the last/late batch of instances came out for Isenguard I let my three month sub lapse. I let it lapse because I saw that new levels and now new instances didn't give DP. The writing was on the wall and I told many friends that Turbine (it's kinda funny I almost wrote Evony there) was gonna get rid of DP buffs at some point soon.

A lot of players on the forums assume they are the majority of players. I have no clue who I make up. Starting in 2009 with breaks I have 3 75s and a 50ish on the way. I mostly enjoy groups with my 75s. I raid once or twice a week maybe three times if you include draigoch. I'm now in a smaller kin with friends after a few biggers ones didn't work out and seek my raiding outside of kin for the most part. Basically I am a PvEer if you want labels. Sorry for the bibliography just letting you all know where I am coming from.

I use and gain most of my destiny in PvE land, been at 750k destiny, been at 1k within the last year. Yes, OD T2 cost me alot of DP . At this point I see no reason to ever sub to lotro again. It was a balancing act for me, I could get destiny buffs for raids I very much enjoy and I could try my luck into PvMP with some friends or have some fun solo. Those were my two reasons for staying subbed to lotro.

Now losing the availability of DP thru PvE for use in PvE, the balance has changed and make it pretty stupid to ever go VIP again. Lets face it once you drop of VIP and start picking up questpacks/skrims there is less and less incentive to go back. With this I lose any chance of me playing in the moors ever again (not gonna freaver it nor p2w).

I'm not sure how many people are out there like me, probably not a ton, but maybe some? This change has made it so I will never sub again and prob never PvMP again due to the lack of sub. I enjoy the game, I'll keep playing, I will buy the expacs, I won't buy fluff anymore cause I'll need to save my TP and won't buy perks that were formerly available via DP on principle. I hope this increases Turbines revenue so we get content, but I fear there are some faction of the playerbase, like me, will go premium just because of this lowering profits and lowering pvmp participation.

DL;DR This was more a post for me, who loves this game and is feeling down. Everyone has a different point, but this was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Beyond Update six we will continue to phase Destiny acquisition out of the game and introduce new ways to acquire existing perks through game play.

LOTRO Store counts as game play right?

Originally Posted by swt46

Is anyone really actively gathering DPs for use in non-moors play? If not seems like there is a bit of over-reaction going on. If so, either I'm missing something or hope these aren't the same players complaining about excessive grind requirements in game.

I have never had to 'actively' gather DP. I enjoy PvP on my freep and get a fair amount from there and additionally have earned a fair amount of DP through PvE instances. Between these two I have over 500k DP despite using DP regularly for raiding, occasional dread removal and also when levelling I like to use the out of combat morale and power regen at times to avoid having to wait for regen between fights (seems more relevant to some classes than others). Extra blue bar from the DP when levelling is also useful at times when I want to skip through levels at a faster pace.

Earning DP hasn't been an issue for me, but I find the PvE 'perks' very useful in various ways. I don't use the perks for PvP although I know some people do.

Originally Posted by JRonnie

Ah but effectively nerfing destiny perks and forcing people to buy the buffs from the store instead is a lot cheaper to do and will make them more money. I don't understand why people are surprised at this move.....

Not surprised as this seems to be the path that Turbine has been taking for the past year. This continued behaviour from them is disappointing however and discouraging me from playing a game I was intending to see through to Mordor.

Originally Posted by Webby189

Now losing the availability of DP thru PvE for use in PvE, the balance has changed and make it pretty stupid to ever go VIP again. Lets face it once you drop of VIP and start picking up questpacks/skrims there is less and less incentive to go back. With this I lose any chance of me playing in the moors ever again (not gonna freaver it nor p2w).

I'm not sure how many people are out there like me, probably not a ton, but maybe some? This change has made it so I will never sub again and prob never PvMP again due to the lack of sub. I enjoy the game, I'll keep playing, I will buy the expacs, I won't buy fluff anymore cause I'll need to save my TP and won't buy perks that were formerly available via DP on principle. I hope this increases Turbines revenue so we get content, but I fear there are some faction of the playerbase, like me, will go premium just because of this lowering profits and lowering pvmp participation.

I have to agree here. A friend of mine is dropping from a yearly sub to three monthly because they aren't sure there is much point in continuing to pay a subscription and no longer feel confident committing longterm to the game. They have been paying a sub since launch.

Myself as well as many others I have spoken to who PvP on a casual basis are wavering in regards to continuing to pay a sub because PvP is not worth it for us as the only real perk for subbing. My kin only raid on a casual basis (1-2 times a week) and so long as there is no alternative for the DP perks except for the store then we will not ask those in the raid to use those perks. If this makes raiding harder for us and it gets frustrating (casual kin so not all geared up well and ability varies a lot between players) then folks will most likely lose interest and stop signing up for raids.

I no longer feel like we are on a journey to Mordor... we are just being trained to use the store and forget the point of playing is to have fun.

If Turbine wants us to have confidence in such changes, they need to have a viable system ready to replace the DP perks *before* they remove them not remove them and say they are looking into it and signpost the store in the meantime.

The real kicker on this one, for a long time Creeps never had access to the perks, then they got them. In retrospect, this looks like a change to transition a system that was formally a PvE only system to a PvP system, so it could be killed off at a later date.

Without a way to generate DP through instance quest, the system is as good as dead anyway.

As it stands now, this really is a PvP based change that will have a very unfortunate impact on PvE, and that's not going to sit well with A LOT of the community here - and will only add fuel to the arguments of those against PvP in the game.

Also, if Turbine is truly taking something away from us only to sell it to us in the Store, then I would at least like to hear straight talk from Turbine that this is their intention. I don't want to deal with any more of these annoying PR games Sapience likes to play, I want straight talk from someone at Turbine. And if this is a case of shooting the messenger, I'm truly sorry for that, but sometimes the news is so bad that the messenger becomes an unintentional casualty.

Originally Posted by UnlikelyBeing

If Turbine wants us to have confidence in such changes, they need to have a viable system ready to replace the DP perks *before* they remove them not remove them and say they are looking into it and signpost the store in the meantime.

That's the real problem here. Too many of us saw what they did with the two part LI upgrade - and I have full confidence that the same thing will befall the DP system resulting in a completely lobotomized version of it's current incarnation, while the second half never comes.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You won't be able to buy the skills and traits any longer. As stated in the dev diary.

For those concerned about the perks post DP exhaustion, we're looking at other ways to add them to the game. The store will not be your only option.

Soooo, You're removing a feature that is VIP only, one of the few reasons to be a VIP. Then you're saying that there are going to be 'other ways' to get them, but if they are plentiful enough that they can replace the quantity of DP that raiders use every raid then that would mean that non-VIPs would have no reason to buy them from the store, which clearly isn't going to happen.

So the likely scenario is that you will be able to gain perks from normal play but at such a low level that the only real option is to purchase them from the store. If this proves to be the case then Lotro will finally become Pay-To-Win, because end game raids have nearly always needed DP perks for everyone except the very best players.

In a recent post of yours you said that Turbine wanted to tell us why things change, well you've told us why DP is changing for PvMP, but from a players point-of-view DP for PvE works well, so feel free to tell us why you're changing it!

Also, will people who have low DP after U6, but before the new way of obtaining the perks is implemented, be left with only the Store as a way of using those perks?


Simply put, this still looks like a way of getting VIPs to spend more TP while eroding the benefits of being a VIP, and with Turbine's poor track record of making Store almost-exclusive items available ingame (stat tomes, lootbox keys) I'll remain very skeptical until proven otherwise

Originally Posted by MathKnight

he invention of a new method is very logical if in the end that new system does not involve any new type of currency or if it is consolidated into another existing currency (TP for example). I have no problems what so ever with DP-Perks moving into the store and being available for TP instead however, referring once again to Sapience's latest clarification post, that doesn't seem to be the case. At least not entirely.

Good grief! You are actually an advocate for the Store to play a bigger role in game. Why are you okay with getting less than what you get right now? Just because you rarely use the perks does not mean others do. I don't like to spend my increasingly hard-earned TP on one-hour buffs.

As I said, that doesn't seem to be the case. At least not entirely.

Originally Posted by MathKnight

The only thing that would be utterly pointless would be to create a new currency specifically for DP-Perks. Not to mention that it would confuse people even more than it already is.

The point being we already have DP for DP perks. Why create a new currency indeed? That is an argument against your position, not for it.

That aside, I would like to apologize for my previous post. It was more harsh than I intended.

Well, here's the deal.

They are already creating a new PvMP currency (which as I've argued before, is the current PvMP currency). In that perspective, the only thing that would be utterly pointless would be to create a new currency specifically for DP-Perks (in addition to Commendations). So what I wrote actually means the opposite of how you actually interpreted it. In creating a new currency (which they already are, i.e. Commendations) they are effectively making DP a separate currency specifically for DP-Perks. The less different currencies in the game, the better. Especially if the things you can buy with one currency is also available to buy with another, already existing currency. Two currencies to buy the same things.

Originally Posted by Spordo

As I said, that doesn't seem to be the case. At least not entirely.


Well, here's the deal.

They are already creating a new PvMP currency (which as I've argued before, is the current PvMP currency). In that perspective, the only thing that would be utterly pointless would be to create a new currency specifically for DP-Perks (in addition to Commendations). So what I wrote actually means the opposite of how you actually interpreted it. In creating a new currency (which they already are, i.e. Commendations) they are effectively making DP a separate currency specifically for DP-Perks. The less different currencies in the game, the better. Especially if the things you can buy with one currency is also available to buy with another, already existing currency. Two currencies to buy the same things.

Which begs the question - why create a brand-new currency to replace one that was working just fine?

PvP commendations as a replacement for DP + Delving Stones + Gold... sure. That works.

PvP commendations as a poorly disguised excuse for phasing out DP entirely, even in the PvE World... that doesn't work for a lot of people.

If commendations were going to be available from all the sources that one can currently earn DP, and commendations could be used to buy the current DP perks, then most of us wouldn't care and they truly would be "two currencies to buy the same things" and we could get rid of DP entirely with little fanfare.

I notice they are still ignoring the question of converting existing DP pools to Commendations. The answer "you can use them now" is just a shill for the T-Store, as the only way a creep with a large DP pool would be able to spend them is to go buy a bunch of skills and traits.

If this is really about making a better system and not just a cheap ploy to push the T-Store, give players a way to convert and a large enough cap in Commendations.

Originally Posted by Ozthorn

I notice they are still ignoring the question of converting existing DP pools to Commendations.

I feel that they have been pretty clear on this, there will be no conversion of DPs to commendations. You will have the same # of DPs after U6 launches that you had when the servers went down for the update. After U6 is up, you will no longer be able to spend DPs to purchase any creep skills, traits, corruptions, ect so if you have DPs that you want to convert to permanent creep upgrades you should spend the DPs now. Once U6 is up you will not be able to trade Delving stones for consumables or permanent creep enhancements but there will be some, as yet undefined but probably very poor, conversion from stones to commendations so you may want to wait on converting all your stones to pots until you know the final math.

Originally Posted by Ozthorn

The answer "you can use them now" is just a shill for the T-Store, as the only way a creep with a large DP pool would be able to spend them is to go buy a bunch of skills and traits.

I'm not sure what you mean about the store, you don't need DPs to purchase things from the store, you use DPs to purchase enhancements your creep has ranked up to, send DPs if you want, or save them for PvE post update, the store doesn't have anything to do with it.

Originally Posted by Ozthorn

If this is really about making a better system and not just a cheap ploy to push the T-Store, give players a way to convert and a large enough cap in Commendations.

Why? Buy everything you are ranked for with DPs (and lumis if required), convert the rest of your stones to pots, and when U6 launches go out and start earning commendations to pay for more pots or to start paying for new skills when you next rank up. Use the rest of your DPs for 'perks' as you please. I'm not seeing where the problem is. [I'm sitting on around 350K DPs for what its worth]

Clear cannablisation of current customers in hope of gaining more revenue from the store. Its an unneeded change that could have been implemented with the current dp system but that would have benefited the community and not Turbines marginal revenue.

I'd like to point out that we already earn "currency" through player kills. If that was Turbine's main goal they could have simply increased the destiny points(dp) we receive from kills and lower the dp from quest rewards. The only creeps with dp issues now are the ones who buy their maps from the store. They could even replace all the delving barters with dp barters as well.

There seems to be two issues with this however:

Turbine intends to introduce new items (such as skins). They can't figure out a way for players, with a large amount of dp, to actually work(or spend) toward acquiring these items. Rank seems the obvious answer but it seems the goal now is to allow everyone access at once.

Also there's the store potential factor. This is no longer a conspiracy theory, store based decisions are evident in every release now. If you have a few hundred k dp, you are not likely to buy any items related to dp purchases (or dp acquisition accelerators) from the lotro store. The mention of "seasonal" we keep seeing now is when Turbine decides to introduce a new item that players want. So as a result we're getting a new capped currency so that you won't be able to save for these things in advance.

My solution would be to give these items to vip players (blasphemy I know) and allow f2p to purchase them from the store. If you drop down from being vip, something like a new skin would become unequipped until you either resub or purchase it.

The point most fixated on by Turbine is we are not losing what we have in DP. They keep coming back to that as if that was the main issue and it's not - I'm not afraid of losing what I have built up. I just know it won't last.

The point that is generally driven home time and time is again is the resentment by PVE players at not being able to build more DP to use in PVE. This has nothing to do with Moors now, it's about the perks we are able to SELECT (not pick up randomly things which we don't want and won't use in mob drops) and will soon not be able to afford.

I don't PvMP very often, and for me DP is a perk I use for raiding, for squishies in buying a little bit of assistance for a solo instance, and for a bit of a boost now and then on skirmish marks, etc. DP is something as a 3 account VIP lifer I appreciate and use. It is also something I will not continue to aquire after the update unless I level countless alts I do not want and do not need. And per the dev statements, DP is being phased out completely at some point.

This is about being forced to use the store for things I earn now in my everyday play time.

Destiny needed to change, there is no other way around it. Should DP be phased out completely, no, and as Sapience said, the DP buffs will be available in a new way. Despite the outrage over dwindling DP, lets look at what this might actually do for PvMP shall we?

Commendations seem to be earned at a slightly higher rate than infamy (based on Kelsan's example). This might not be true, as many things were labeled as viable to change. However, I think it is a fair assumption that commendations will be earned at a decent rate. For my upcoming example, I will say that the rate at which infamy and commendations are earned are equal.

Suppose I'm rolling a new toon from scratch. The first few ranks will earn little reward via commendations. By rank 3 I should have 2,750 or so. This is enough to buy some corruptions, or maybe a skill. By rank 5 I've earned 14,750 commendations. Oh no!! somewhere in there I would have hit cap. That should be ok though because there are PLENTY of things that my new toon could have bought. Skills, traits, more corruptions, brands.. hell if I'm really decked out on commendations I could even buy a skin. By rank 6, i sill have earned another 18k commendations. Most corruptions, skills, and traits will likely be obtained at this point up until rank 6. Rank 7 will have earned me around another 39k or so.
(Note: I didn't mention audacity although that will also require commendations.)

Obtaining skills will not be the same as it currently is. You likely will not be able to buy all of your new skills,traits etc as soon as you rank. But think about how many people stop playing after they hit a specific rank? The light at the end of the tunnel gets smaller and smaller the higher ranked you are. Looking forward even to these small rewards will keep the lower ranks more interested I think. By the time you get to a higher rank you should have no problem at all buying consumables with the commendations you earn.

So what if they just implemented this new system using existing DP? It wouldn't work at all. Think about it, the main reason they are implementing a new system is so they can cap it. This requires players to PVMP when new rewards come out. If they didn't have this cap then what would happen? A new season of audacity comes out and people with millions of DP buy it all and don't think twice about it. Is that any fun at all? I personally don't think so. I'm going to enjoy working for my audacity ranks with everybody else. I'll actually get to compete with other creeps for this new audacity because it does not require rank. I havn't had to compete with anyone rankwise for a while now so I welcome the change.

I feel that DP really needed to change and now it has. Less PvE is always welcome with me.

Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

The point most fixated on by Turbine is we are not losing what we have in DP. They keep coming back to that as if that was the main issue and it's not - I'm not afraid of losing what I have built up. I just know it won't last.

Yep, I never thought I would lose my DP, I didn't even think I wouldn't be able to use it, except to push my creeps further because it was going to a new system. This was my first post in this thread on page 17;

Originally Posted by Fudoshin

So, will we still be able to get ~2k DP from doing the PvE quests or not? I checked the dev tracker and the only response I found was in a thread that lead me back here, so please forgive me if a blue name has responded.

"The role of Destiny will be changed to a strictly “perk” currency that will only be acquired through leveling."

Doesn't sound good to me, maybe it was just an oversimplification. I really hope though this change isn't just a "we want to sell more perks in the store, so lets make it harder to get in game" change.

Again, apologies if this has actually been answered by a blue name I must have missed it.

I bolded the bit because I was concerned that with DP costs as they are, there would be no way after whatever supply I had was used, to use DP anymore for perks. I was correct to feel that way. If we look at the dev diary, the quote I bolded part of is the only mention of what is happening to DP, basically that it's headed the way of the dodo, but you can still earn a bit through levelling.

Fastforwarding a bit we get the precise clarification which was what I had hoped wouldn't be the case, sweetened with "we are looking at other ways to make perks available through gameplay" or something to the effect. Well I'm impressed to bits! That goes right up there with "I'll still respect you in the morning" as far as I'm concerned.

Possibly you were looking at ways to add perks to the game, but probably not as a result of having them removed (as DP perks). I actually have some of the perks I won in a lottery, is that through game play too?

There was no suggestion in the dev diary anything would be done about PvE perks, we asked, our fears were confirmed and kind of glossed over (2 posts later I might add) with the least comittal comment you can make, it wasn't even "we are working on other ways"...just we are looking at them. Well that's just great. TBH though it's probably true if you had even said working on them I'm not sure I'd believe it, I'm working on a thesis right now, I'm looking at trying to win a nobel peace prize. Words mean stuffall, and not having in place a replacement speaks volumes.

Don't worry I won't post about about this again, I'm even sick of it, and yes I'm annoyed and angry, I don't want to quit, but I'll be damned if I'm giving in to this. I gave this game $250? last year, it's never getting anything like that again. I might not even buy RoR because I still have 10k TP.

Don't bother writing anything about "we should have been clearer either", that's already been used. The rediculous thing is this isn't probably even gonna be a big money and I currently rarely use them anyway. I don't want drops for perks, so what are you going to make a new currency? Probably no one really has any idea.

Hmm, at an (average) 2-3 working day turnaround, can we expect a Turbine comment tomorrow? Or Monday?

Unless of course Sapience saying that it was the "final clarification" a few posts back meant that Turbine has made it's collective decision, there will be no further discussion, acknowledgement it might have been a mistake or reconsideration.

Once we get past the confusion of what is going on with destiny points, it seems most players are asking why and we aren't getting an answer. So we can only speculate. Dev's probably looked at the destiny point currency and could see that most players had far more than they could ever use- trivializing the system. This happened at least once before- IXP comes to mind. When bounties came out we had a system to earn IXP incredibly fast- something that went far beyond anything before it. It was an obvious mistake, solved by nerfing the bounty quest rewards and creating Moria IXP and Mirkwood IXP. Around a year later dev's probably felt the problem had subsided and that's around when Moria IXP and mirkwood ixp went away and we were back to just 1 type of IXP.

So destiny points has reached a similar point. Dev's feel players have too much of it to make rewards in that system motivating and makes it hard for them to properly price the rewards.

I get it. It all makes sense. But the problem is we are being treated like we have been a 5 year beta. The slate is going to be wiped clean, and the guy with 2 million dp will have exactly the same value a guy with 200 dp once dp is fully phased out. I have multiple high ranked creeps and I've already spent a lot of dp on them, but I have a bunch left. When dp is phased out, the new currency commendations comes in, and with it you buy something rather vital for pvmp- audacity. I'll get nothing for my dp, I'll need commendations. My point is that many of us would have rank 7 audacity already if this currency was used from the beginning, and we are going to be treated just like a brand new player.

What should happen instead is players should get value proportional to the old currency. Got 2 million dp? That's a lot- you can purchase commendations with that- maybe a 20-1 ratio, so you can get 100,000 commendations or you can purchase the new currency for pve perks(the one they haven't told us about yet but might come out some day). In pvmp the commendations have a cap of 10,000. But since we are phasing out the old and putting in something new, you will keep the 100,000 but you can't earn anymore until you go below the cap again.

But instead all I see is Turbine saying 'hey sorry guys, we screwed up on our implementation of pvmp. We are going to make it better by pretending the rewards we gave you for playing are worthless and starting over and treating the guy who played hundreds of hours questing over several years like the guy who just downloaded the game. Thank you for playing!'

I'm just pissed that they decided to wrap this little development under the guise of "enhancing PvP play".

New map? nope
Adjusting exisiting imbalances in the Moors? nope
fixing existing skills/exploits and glitches?nope
Introducing specific PvP instances? nope
Creep side mail? nope
Class revamp? meh - Orion is working on that so kudos


And out of left field we get currency change.....powered by customers indeed. Fact of the matter is that this currency change has nothing to really do with enhancing the moors experience.

How on earth will a new currency system enhance the PvP side of lotro? To encourage PvP over PvE?

Explain to me please, how you hope A) currency change will lead to -----------> B) PvP over PvE?

Do they think that players who come to the moors do it for the awesome PvE, repeating the same quests, taking the same keeps, picking up sticks and rocks that spawn in the same spot all in the same map? And the players who do come to the moors to aquire DP for PvE raids and such - so now we discourage them from taking part in something they might come to enjoy? I mean how did they even determine that there was a problem with PvE over PvP? Out rage in the forums stating this? A large pool of statistical data?

Common guys, you really expect us to be so Naive? Just call it for what it is - and what countless of posters have pointed out.....cause at the moment it really looks like your phasing something out for a money grab.
Maybe if you would of thought this through, at least providing us with this "alternative method" of aquiring perks in game with the currency change, the outrage and speculation might not of been so bad.

Instead you dump this in PvMP - upsetting the PvP'ers who have been asking for other changes, and the rest of your player pool who are losing something they deem they want.

Originally Posted by peaceofmind

I'm just pissed that they decided to wrap this little development under the guise of "enhancing PvP play".

New map? nope
Adjusting exisiting imbalances in the Moors? nope
fixing existing skills/exploits and glitches?nope
Introducing specific PvP instances? nope
Creep side mail? nope
Class revamp? meh - Orion is working on that so kudos


And out of left field we get currency change.....powered by customers indeed. Fact of the matter is that this currency change has nothing to really do with enhancing the moors experience.

How on earth will a new currency system enhance the PvP side of lotro? To encourage PvP over PvE?

Explain to me please, how you hope A) currency change will lead to -----------> B) PvP over PvE?

Do they think that players who come to the moors do it for the awesome PvE, repeating the same quests, taking the same keeps, picking up sticks and rocks that spawn in the same spot all in the same map? And the players who do come to the moors to aquire DP for PvE raids and such - so now we discourage them from taking part in something they might come to enjoy? I mean how did they even determine that there was a problem with PvE over PvP? Out rage in the forums stating this? A large pool of statistical data?

Common guys, you really expect us to be so Naive? Just call it for what it is - and what countless of posters have pointed out.....cause at the moment it really looks like your phasing something out for a money grab.
Maybe if you would of thought this through, at least providing us with this "alternative method" of aquiring perks in game with the currency change, the outrage and speculation might not of been so bad.

Instead you dump this in PvMP - upsetting the PvP'ers who have been asking for other changes, and the rest of your player pool who are losing something they deem they want.

To be honest, I am quite happy that they are moving to a currency that is only PvMP, and has no means of acquisition outside the moors. If I remember the Dev Diary properly, the primary source of commendations is meant to be through defeating other players, which highly encourages PvP. I am at least willing to wait and see how it plays out before I cast my vote on its success or failure.

However, I do agree that the removal of the the Destiny Perks appears to be nothing other than a cash grab. Until we are given a reasonable replacement, and not just a vaque statement about 'looking into' a replacement, that is all this will be to me.

Originally Posted by peaceofmind

Instead you dump this in PvMP - upsetting the PvP'ers who have been asking for other changes, and the rest of your player pool who are losing something they deem they want.

And the worst part about all of this:

It makes people ticked off at PvMP because it caused a nerf to their PvE experience.

And as many would agree, that's the last thing us PvMPers need at the moment.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And the worst part about all of this:

It makes people ticked off at PvMP because it caused a nerf to their PvE experience.

And as many would agree, that's the last thing us PvMPers need at the moment.

Yes this is all the PvMPers fault!

Although I wouldn't be surprised if that was the general concencus from many PvEers...

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And the worst part about all of this:

It makes people ticked off at PvMP because it caused a nerf to their PvE experience.

And as many would agree, that's the last thing us PvMPers need at the moment.

I am also afraid that many of the PvE players might feel this way. I will do what I can to explain how this is NOT because of PvMP to those who don't see it that way though.

It would only be the PvMPer's fault if they capped/wiped destiny so that they could use that as the currency in the Moors.

You have your new currency (if it works for you or not I will leave to those that actually PvMp), so there is no reason to punish those who don't PvMP by taking away our way to earn Destiny Points. If the problem is the perks used in the moors, make them not work there.

Until I see a replacement plan implemented, I'm not buying the "new improved perk system". Housing has been on the block for improvement for years, the barter wallet has been on the block for improvement since it was put in place, this is plan and simple a removal of a VIP perk (by attrition at first and eventually completely) with nothing put in its place.

At best, this is poor planning on Turbine's part, you don't remove something from the game with vague promises to maybe give us something else someday down the road. At worst, it's a cash grab for the store perks.

As a PVE player I don't see this as the fault of PvMP players. They did not request a currency change, they've asked for a number of other things which I may or may not agree with but has nothing to do with the changes taking place.

I think most players are able to see where this comes from. We are seeing a change in currency that incentivizes those who spend cash for turbine points. We will not take away the toys you have, but we have removed the toybox. If you want more toys when these are gone, that requires a trip to the store.

Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

As a PVE player I don't see this as the fault of PvMP players. They did not request a currency change, they've asked for a number of other things which I may or may not agree with but has nothing to do with the changes taking place.

I think most players are able to see where this comes from. We are seeing a change in currency that incentivizes those who spend cash for turbine points. We will not take away the toys you have, but we have removed the toybox. If you want more toys when these are gone, that requires a trip to the store.

^ This. I am also a Pve player and in no way do I see this as being anything to do with the PvMP players.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...-pvmp-audacity

Ugh, just read this so please accept my humble appoligies for some of the comments made in the above post (why couldnt you have put this out before the currency change? ). Excited to see how this turns out.

Good news for PvP, but still feel for VIP's and the loss of perks. I am gonna refrain form sticking my foot in mouth until we see what the new perk system.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Which begs the question - why create a brand-new currency to replace one that was working just fine?

That thing is, the DP system wasn't working just fine, in fact, it was a total mess.

Originally Posted by Lestache

If commendations were going to be available from all the sources that one can currently earn DP, and commendations could be used to buy the current DP perks, then most of us wouldn't care and they truly would be "two currencies to buy the same things" and we could get rid of DP entirely with little fanfare.

Then we would only be changing the name, not the flaws in the system.

Originally Posted by KingOfBlackarrows

Destiny needed to change, there is no other way around it. Should DP be phased out completely, no, and as Sapience said, the DP buffs will be available in a new way. Despite the outrage over dwindling DP, lets look at what this might actually do for PvMP shall we?

...snip...

So what if they just implemented this new system using existing DP? It wouldn't work at all. Think about it, the main reason they are implementing a new system is so they can cap it. This requires players to PVMP when new rewards come out. If they didn't have this cap then what would happen? A new season of audacity comes out and people with millions of DP buy it all and don't think twice about it. Is that any fun at all? I personally don't think so. I'm going to enjoy working for my audacity ranks with everybody else. I'll actually get to compete with other creeps for this new audacity because it does not require rank. I havn't had to compete with anyone rankwise for a while now so I welcome the change.

I feel that DP really needed to change and now it has. Less PvE is always welcome with me.

Originally Posted by Loth_Don

Dev's probably looked at the destiny point currency and could see that most players had far more than they could ever use- trivializing the system. This happened at least once before- IXP comes to mind. When bounties came out we had a system to earn IXP incredibly fast- something that went far beyond anything before it.

So destiny points has reached a similar point. Dev's feel players have too much of it to make rewards in that system motivating and makes it hard for them to properly price the rewards.

I agree, in order to be able to not get a huge inflation in the system, there needs to be a cap on the points used.

Originally Posted by Loth_Don

I get it. It all makes sense. But the problem is we are being treated like we have been a 5 year beta. The slate is going to be wiped clean, and the guy with 2 million dp will have exactly the same value a guy with 200 dp once dp is fully phased out. I have multiple high ranked creeps and I've already spent a lot of dp on them, but I have a bunch left. When dp is phased out, the new currency commendations comes in, and with it you buy something rather vital for pvmp- audacity. I'll get nothing for my dp, I'll need commendations. My point is that many of us would have rank 7 audacity already if this currency was used from the beginning, and we are going to be treated just like a brand new player.

Which is exactly how it has to be in my opinion. Otherwise the inflation would still be there and the rewards (Audacity in this case) would be trivial again. You're still a veteran, you still have your skills, maps, rank and what not. Being rewarded just for having been in the game longer than somebody else just undermines the system they are trying to change.

Personally, I'm rather happy to see all these changes made to the Moors. Now, I'm almost a strictly PVE player. That's not because I think PVP is a bad thing. It's because, after having done it for a short time I got bored with it.

For one thing, Creeps always seemed at a disadvantage to me. Last time I stepped into the Moors, I was able to take out a rookie creep in three skills on my Minstrel. And this was before the Minstrel revamp. That did not seem very competitive to me. In fairness, I was in War Speech and traited for DPS, but base mitigations to things like light damage seemed entirely too low starting out. In other words, I found AI mobs on PVE side had a better chance of surviving an attack from me than their player-controlled counterparts in the Moors. At least the ones just starting out.

Another problem I had with it was that the map has pretty much remained the same in the 4, almost 5 years now, of existence. Sure, some tweaks have been made here and there, but it still seemed to me that too much progression was based on PVE quests in a PVP zone. If LOTRO had such things as PVP servers with PVP taking place in general landscape, that would be different. Instead, we're talking about a single zone that's supposed to be PVP-focused. But it hasn't been.

PvMP needs more variety that it currently has. I'm hoping these revamps will eventually lead to that. I'd love to see more match types available to PvMP players than what is currently there. What we have now is basically one big map where you play capture the flag or team deathmatch (with no kill limit) the entire time you're there. I'd like to see a new zone added for variety's sake. And perhaps some smaller, skirmish-sized match types for those players who do not necessarily care for PVP raiding. I think it would take some work, but the foundation for such a thing is already laid out in the Skirmish system. Work on bringing that system creepside to match scaling team sizes against one another. It would allow for a wider variety of match types and would allow players to experience new locales as a creep, such as Bree or even Dunland. Attacking the 21st Hall with the Free Peoples defending it sounds like a lot of fun. And it would likely draw someone like me, who has done very little PVP in this game, back into that side of things.

As for Destiny Points, I can't say I'm surprised to see this go. It's not gone yet, but it's going away. Slowly. Commendations sound like they'll be a good substitute, but we'll see. As long as they implement a system that is rewarding and takes some work to earn perks, much like gaining DP strictly through PVE does now, I can't say I'll have a problem with it.

TL;DR: I'm intrigued by where they are going with PVMP, think they need to step up their game more down the line to draw more people into that aspect of the game, and find the DP issue to be the least of my concerns in light of other issues (so far).

As many have already said..

I don´t see this as an gamebreaking change, I can live without these buffs and I think it will only have a minor (if any) impact on the PvMP.
What really annoyes me about this is how they camouflage it as an improvement to PvMP when all they want is an easy way to make more money.

If this is intended as an insentive to PvP, why not keep the DP from PvE quests, remove all perks when you come to ettens and use commendations to buy new ones?

If perks from DP is a problem in PvE why not take away the ability to use them for all max-lvl characters (including store-bought ones), and simply use them only while leveling up?

I fully understand the need to make more money to keep the game going, but please be honest about it.

/Donothir, Snowbourn

Originally Posted by Sapience

Beyond Update six we will continue to phase Destiny acquisition out of the game and introduce new ways to acquire existing perks through game play.

Can you explain the "new ways" part please? In fact just a statement that we will be able to acquire it in game and not having to buy it in store would be enough.

On a side note: I don't see any problems with obtaining destiny points with daily / weekly quests like we do right now.

EDIT: Reading the quote again and your answer is already in there. "Through game play". As long as this doesn't mean obtaining TP's and spending it in store it would do it for me.

Originally Posted by roufneck

Can you explain the "new ways" part please? In fact just a statement that we will be able to acquire it in game and not having to buy it in store would be enough.

Careful because "not having to buy it in store" is a subjective concept. There really isnt anything currently you need in game you have to buy in the store. Hold their feet to the fire ask hard questions but becareful of wording because the answer could be a simple "yes" and the drop rate could be so small its unlikely you will ever get one.

It would be a factually correct answer but its not really what your asking is it? You probably want to know if you will be able to get the same perks you get now with DP via some mechanism in game at the current rate you do with DP. (correct me if I am wrong).

Be very specific here even if it means you have to type a novel.

Originally Posted by tanlis

It boils down to communicating clearly, not being ambiguous, and not leaving several things open to interpretation.

What is ambiguous about "The ONLY way to get DP will be through leveling"? The only "problem" on these forums is people who don't LIKE what is being said and are spinning fantasies in an attempt to make it SEEM like there is something ambiguous and open to interpretation.

Originally Posted by GregJL

What is ambiguous about "The ONLY way to get DP will be through leveling"? The only "problem" on these forums is people who don't LIKE what is being said and are spinning fantasies in an attempt to make it SEEM like there is something ambiguous and open to interpretation.

there are indeed more problems then that, but it is a big one. Sapience clarified everything in this thread. Not popular (least not in the chats ive seen in OOC creepside) but its clear none the less. You're getting something you didnt ask for and mostly dont want. Do the specifics really matter at this point?

Originally Posted by GregJL

What is ambiguous about "The ONLY way to get DP will be through leveling"?

I haven't followed the whole debate, but I assume the ambiguity comes from:

Why the DP are being dropped? (i.e, no realistic way to accumulate more).
What will replace them? (nothing at first, "something" "in the future").


The terms 'something' and 'in the future' (paraphrase), are by definition pretty ambiguous by themselves, but then you add in that there are other examples where game features have been moved exclusively to the store or the in game equivalent was drastically reduced... and I think ambiguous is a pretty accurate term.

Questioning the two things I mentioned above is, IMHO, staying on topic in questioning the future of the game... I.E. the pupose of the forums... to discuss the game.

Originally Posted by Spordo

Which is exactly how it has to be in my opinion. Otherwise the inflation would still be there and the rewards (Audacity in this case) would be trivial again. You're still a veteran, you still have your skills, maps, rank and what not. Being rewarded just for having been in the game longer than somebody else just undermines the system they are trying to change.

Destiny points aren't earned merely by being in the game longer. You have to accomplish certain things. The guy with 2 million destiny points accomplished a lot and seems to have spent very little. I have 250,000 destiny points currently(or to put it in a different perspective, 125 keep/outpost captures or Lt. An slayings), but I've spent a lot of destiny points on upgrading my r10, 2 r8 and 3 r7 monster players. Now when commendations come I'm being told those 250,000 destiny points will not work for upgrading my monster at all. To earn commendations I'll have to do the exact same things I did before to earn destiny points- defeat players(~50 per while grouped) and quest in the Ettenmoors(between 20-100 per).

So:

1. Commendations are earned much faster through player defeat than by questing(~200 commendations from a solo kill v. 100 commendations from a keep capture quest). This is the opposite of how destiny points are currently earned in PvMP( ~100 destiny points from a solo kill (iirc) v. 2000 destiny points from a keep capture quest).

2. The top quest reward for commendations is 100. The top quest reward for destiny points is 2000. Thus questwise a conversion of 20-1 seems appropriate. Since questing was the primary source of destiny points, this seems fair to me.

3. Commendations earned from defeats seems to be roughly twice current destiny point acquisition from defeats. But percentage of destiny points in most players pools is likely rather low, doubling commendations for that dp seems to both be going in the wrong direction and a worthless endeavor.

So a fair conversion isn't hard to approximate. But you have a currency cap now to deal with. My solution: players after conversion can't earn more commendations if they are over the cap. Simple and fair IMO. But if they want to go a bit harsher, they can say that anything over 10,000 commendations after the conversion is lost. Not as nice, but nicer than no conversion at all- you get nothing.

So we aren't getting this for one simple reason: Audacity. Dev's want players to all start out at the 'bottom'. Despite that being unfair, that is not why I personally am even bothering to post in this thread. I'm bothering to post because my personal nemesis in this game is doing the same exact thing over and over again.

Don't be mistaken- I have a tolerance for repetition. Just look at my previously mentioned characters. But 250,000 dp looks to be worth about 12,500 commendations- that'll be enough to equip just one of my 8 lvl 75 or a couple nice things for my 7 lvl 65+'s characters with something decent. But I'll be getting nothing at U6. Okay, not fair but I can handle that. So what does turbine want me to do- oh the exact same things I did to earn the destiny points I can't use? Now that's when I get pissed. 5 years I've played in the 'moors. I and everyone else who has earned destiny points is going to have that taken away and are being asked to pretend that never happened and just do it all over again not because we cheated, or its totally different or something, but because they are putting in a new reward and they want everyone to start fresh- except what we have to DO to get it won't be fresh in the slightest(just capture 125 more keeps! or get 250 more raid kills! just to be able to get what you should of had converted in the first place O.O)- 5 years on the same map!!!!

I am still hoping for some clarification regarding the cap and commendations being account shared.

Q. If Commendations are account shared, are they usable across servers?
No. Commendations are a per-server, account shared currency.

So if we have a cap on commendations, and they are account shared....how will it all work out if you have 2 creeps and 1 freep you play in the moors? Will all 3 toons be drawning from the same pool (10k) or will the pool be increased to 30k? If the pool is increased to 30k, then what will stop people from just creating random toons to increase their commendation pool?

If the pool is not increased past 10k, then how are we expected to level alts and purchase the needed components for PvMP. If this is the case, I think it could be a deal breaker.


I personally have 3 creeps and 1 freep that frequent the moors, and drawing from 1 capped commendation pool would essentially force me to focus on one character to level. With the ever increasing audacity cap comming with each "season" (still concerned about what will constitute a season btw) leveling 2 charaters would be pointless as they would fall behind the audacity "race" and be less effective in the moors. This is a pretty big restriction imo.

I guess they could make commendations charater bound - that way you could reach you cap with a toon and switch to the next - avoiding any cap increase exploits... but idk.

Originally Posted by peaceofmind

So if we have a cap on commendations, and they are account shared....how will it all work out if you have 2 creeps and 1 freep you play in the moors? Will all 3 toons be drawning from the same pool (10k) or will the pool be increased to 30k?

No, they have been pretty clear that you will have a 10K pool per server, the number of characters you have on a given server (freep and/or creep) will not effect its size.

Originally Posted by peaceofmind

I personally have 3 creeps and 1 freep that frequent the moors, and drawing from 1 capped commendation pool would essentially force me to focus on one character to level.

They have not explicitly confirmed this but it seems to me almost certain that by 'cap' they mean max pool size, not a limit on Commendations per season. So to level 3 creeps and 1 freep you will do the same thing you do now to get DPs, go out and PvP or go out and moors-quest on whichever creep or freep you want then when you have enough Commendations to buy something you want for one of your toons, switch to that toon, buy it, and go back to playing. The difference (other than collection rate) is that unlike DPs, if your pool ever hits the 10K limit you will stop gaining commendations until you open some room by spending it down. The limit on advancing 4 toons will be the rate you can earn Commendations to divide between them, not the cap.

Edit: This is the way that most people seem to be reading it BUT my name is not in blue so its still open to interpretation until we get an official clarification.

Ah, tyvm for the clarification badger - makes sense

Originally Posted by GregJL

What is ambiguous about "The ONLY way to get DP will be through leveling"? ...

Yes, that is not ambiguous. Ambiguous however for example is how the mechanic that replaces it works out. And yet again, the responsible Turbine people have decided to leave a shroud of mystery over this. A tactical mistake, it is pretty obvious that the answer to that question is VERY important for lots of paying customers.

As it is, we do not see Turbine give a high priority to making VIP attractive. I´m not saying they dont care, I´m saying that is how it appears.
We see more and more store items that many people feel should be free to VIP.
We see them not doing anything about the non-VIP freeps in the moors. (I have nothing against these persons, but where´s the point in subscription to acccess freepside then?)
I dropped subscription because I did not want to play a PVP anymore that clearly was way past a necessary rework. The TP I have gained as VIP easily payed for most of the content in the game that I did not already own. I have more chars than I can hope to level in the foreseeable future, all with slots, bags and swift travel unlocked.

I was waiting for an incentive to resubscribe and the new PvP rework seems to be that. But until I see a clear replacement of the destiny perks and/or new boons for the VIP - I guess many people will find it hard to justify 10-15 bucks/€ per month for a PvP they might not engage in, and for a few SoA quest packs that are essentially 5 year old material. The new region with Update 6? I dont expeect it to be cheap, but I still think it will be cheaper to buy than the cost of one months´ subscription.

What is left are the small things of VIPs that help soften the rough edges (Auction house slots, rested Xp, Destiny point perks etc.). Now a big part of this is taken away by effectively removing DP perks, and we are left in the dark to what could replace it. I liked to think of it as my personal LotrO-store flatrate. Instead of browsing that horrible interface and clogging up my inventory with x5 and x25 stack of the stuff, I bought a flatrate for the destiny shop. No idea what happens now.

Thats quite ambiguous in my book.