Thread: Doors of Durin: How did the Iron Garisson open them?

As the title says, how was it done? I don't remember anything about that in the epic story, or am I forgetting something?
I was rereading the chapter in FOTR and Gandalf says;

that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth

But when we go there the door is already shining, meaning that one of the dwarves knew the secret? That's surprising when even Gimli did not know. The same can be said of the password to open it.

But what the word was is not remembered. Narvi and his craft and all his kindred have vanished from the earth

I wrote this just out of curiosity and since I couldn't find any previous discussion on it. If there's anyone who can answer it better than I can I'll be thankful.

From the movie, the writing above the doors said, "Speak friend, and the doors shall open." Of course, it was Frodo who discerend that the word, speak, meant to "say." So, say, "friend." Gandalf went to the door and said, "Ballogh," meaning friend in old Elvish. I'm surprised that Legolas didn't know that. That was the only instance I knew of. However, after that, the water-monster broke them. Now, having said that, anyone who opened them previously would have had to know the code.

Originally Posted by Princess_Raduilas

From the movie, the writing above the doors said, "Speak friend, and the doors shall open." Of course, it was Frodo who discerend that the word, speak, meant to "say." So, say, "friend." Gandalf went to the door and said, "Ballogh," meaning friend in old Elvish. I'm surprised that Legolas didn't know that. That was the only instance I knew of. However, after that, the water-monster broke them. Now, having said that, anyone who opened them previously would have had to know the code.

O.o thought it was "mellon"? or "hellon" or something like that (thats what i heard in the movie also the sword in the elf prologue named elvhellon which means elf-friend)

just wondering if i named my rune incorrectly - it's dagorellon which afaik means battle-friend

Thanks for replying, but it was Gandalf himself who figured out that "Speak, friend, and enter" was a riddle with 'mellon' the elvish word for friend as the answer. My question is about how the Iron Garisson might have done it.

Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

As the title says, how was it done? I don't remember anything about that in the epic story, or am I forgetting something?
I was rereading the chapter in FOTR and Gandalf says;



But when we go there the door is already shining, meaning that one of the dwarves knew the secret? That's surprising when even Gimli did not know. The same can be said of the password to open it.



I wrote this just out of curiosity and since I couldn't find any previous discussion on it. If there's anyone who can answer it better than I can I'll be thankful.

I dont remember if any explanation of this is actually given in the game quest storyline, since its almost a year now since I last did it....

But I would suppose that when the fellowship were going on their journey and when they decided to go through Moria, they had not meant to do it...or rather it was not planned to take that route.....Only Gandalf had somewhat a doubt that they would be needed to attempt that way.....so they had no knowledge or planning regarding that specific door.....and thats probably why Gimli couldnt solve it.....he mightve known it in the back of his head as an information heard far before....if he had had time to study the lore and pore over the history of his forefathers, he wouldve probably known the answer......but without any prep, he couldnt recall anything....it was a chance journey.....

While on the other hand, the Iron Garrison are said to have long planned that exploration into Moria....it was an expedition specific to Moria.....so they mustve obviously done some research into the matter before they headed out to actually put their plan into action.....hence they knew how to open the doors....

It is also possible that that Balin's expedition entered from the eastern (Lothlorien) side. That's how I always took it to be. That side didn't seem to have the riddle-sealed doors that the western side had. Can't remember for sure, been quite a while since I read the entire series! My first and second sets of the books wore out! Guess I need to hint broadly to my kids and grandkids that I need a new collection!

Gandalf went to the door and said, "Ballogh," meaning friend in old Elvish.

The word for friend in Elvish (Sindarin) is Mellon, which is what Gandalf said in the movie as well as the book.

As for the doors in the game as well as the book, they may have been damaged by the watcher as it slammed the doors shut after the fellowship and piled the trees on. Any expedition following would have had to clear the trees to the door. As for why the runes are still lit, the miners could have been hot on the fellowship's heels and cleared the path quickly enough to get through before the runes went back to sleep.

Originally Posted by menelorn

The word for friend in Elvish (Sindarin) is Mellon, which is what Gandalf said in the movie as well as the book.

As for the doors in the game as well as the book, they may have been damaged by the watcher as it slammed the doors shut after the fellowship and piled the trees on. Any expedition following would have had to clear the trees to the door. As for why the runes are still lit, the miners could have been hot on the fellowship's heels and cleared the path quickly enough to get through before the runes went back to sleep.

In other words, the fellowship left the door opened for anyone to enter if they cleaned the path to the door first.

First of all please read the books if you have questions about lore. While Mr. Jackson did a great job capturing the visual splendor of middle - earth, he. Missed the point on various plot points in the story. But thats just my opinion :-)

When the fellowship came to the doors Gandalf translated the inscription incorrectly.

He translated it as 'speak friend and enter'. The correct translation was 'say friend and enter'.

'I was wrong after all,' said Gandalf, 'and Gimli too. Merry, of all people was on the right track. '

The word was Mellon

I cannot remember if the storyline mentioned anything how the Iron Garrison entered. Balin's entrance is not known either, but it might have been on the Lothlórien side - with one significant problem being lack of roads on that side (and possibly the need to travel thru lands patrolled by rather xenophobic Elves). Gandalf himself had travelled thru Moria long ago (once - and before the Watcher settled in).

On the doors themselves: It is not mentioned what Gandalf said to make them appear, but he did know the right words. It might be that the line of Dúrin might also have known those words (Balin was a direct descendant - and a lot older than Gimli, whose father Glóin, I understand, lived well into the Fourth Age). It is not known if just saying the right opening-word (which indeed is "mellon") would've been enough to open the doors. (The Iron Garrison had one extra obstacle - the fact that once the Fellowship had gotten in, the Watcher had shut the doors and piled rubble on them, preventing them to come out.)

Thanks guys, it seems I never read that part properly.

"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria: pedo mellon a minno." Yes I found from Encyclopedia of Arda that 'pedo' can mean both say and speak, and if our Iron Garisson Guards are any good at Sindar they might have been able to figure it out.

As menelorn said the Iron Garisson was hot on the tails of the fellowship(timewise), so the ithildin runes were still glowing. I didn't notice that.

That clears it up for me somewhat, thanks again for all the replies and reasoning. Now to reread the rest of it with better concentration .

I believe they went in the Eastern, side though I can't back that up with text (but if you want, look, it may be in the appendices under "Durin's Folk").
I wouldn't know why they would go the Western side, considering Balin's Company went the Eastern side because they came from Erebor, so I'd assume most of the dwarves in the game came from the East side considering most of the dwarves in Middle-earth were on that side of the mountains.

Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

Thanks guys, it seems I never read that part properly.

"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria: pedo mellon a minno." Yes I found from Encyclopedia of Arda that 'pedo' can mean both say and speak, and if our Iron Garisson Guards are any good at Sindar they might have been able to figure it out.

As menelorn said the Iron Garisson was hot on the tails of the fellowship, so the ithildin runes were still glowing.

That clears it up for me somewhat, thanks again for all the replies and reasoning. Now to reread the rest of it with better concentration .

i think you are missing an earlier point...the Iron Garrison didn't need to OPEN the Doors because they were damaged when The Watcher attacked. The in-game solution is that you helped open the Doors by removing the rubble.

Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

Doors of Durin: How did the Iron Garisson open them?

As the title says, how was it done? I don't remember anything about that in the epic story, or am I forgetting something?

In Tolkien's novel the Watcher slammed the doors shut then blocked them with boulders, etc. so that the Nine Walkers could not exit. In the LOTRO quest your character digs them out with a few strokes of a mining pick. I do not recall precisely, it may be that the dwarves did some preliminary work. Probably not, as they were too busy skipping stones across the lake, etc.

Originally Posted by Doldeneb

First of all please read the books if you have questions about lore...

When the fellowship came to the doors Gandalf translated the inscription incorrectly.

He translated it as 'speak friend and enter'. The correct translation was 'say friend and enter'.

'I was wrong after all,' said Gandalf, 'and Gimli too. Merry, of all people was on the right track. '

The word was Mellon

This is precisely right. Imagine what might happen if everyone actually bothered to crack the book open?

Originally Posted by Ironcrown

i think you are missing an earlier point...the Iron Garrison didn't need to OPEN the Doors because they were damaged when The Watcher attacked. The in-game solution is that you helped open the Doors by removing the rubble.

Thanks a lot for pointing that out. So that implies that once opened with the password the doors would remain open, until closed in some unmentioned manner.

The watcher in the water closed them with brute force, and piled the holly trees against it. Once the Iron Garisson removed the rubble the doors opened again.

Sounds like they made some kind of elastic mechanism to keep the doors from closing with force.

In the game, there is a chapter of the epic quest where you clear the rubble to the entrance. The doors are ripped off the lintels. Presumably, the Watcher is to blame.

I think we can safely say that Balin's company entered from the East. The first page Gandalf reads out of the Book of Mazarbul (which he also believes to be only the third page out of the entire book, suggesting this happened early during the expedition) refers to the dwarves driving the orcs out of the First Hall and from the Great Gate, and how they fought them in the Dimrill Dale. Only after that is it explained that the dwarves claimed the Twenty-First Hall. In that light, it seems likely that Balin's Company came from the East, bested the orcs guarding the East Gate, and then claimed the upper levels for themselves.

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

(and possibly the need to travel thru lands patrolled by rather xenophobic Elves).

Keep in mind that the game scales down things significantly. While the game has Lorien very close to the East Gate, in reality it would have been a much bigger distance between the two; Most likely enough of a distance to allow Balin's Company to reach Moria without getting close enough to the Golden Wood. Keep in mind that the dwarves had in the past fought a battle in the Dimrill Dale, where they would have had to arrive from the East, and that it also took the Fellowship some time to reach the Golden Wood after leaving Moria (I think Aragorn said it was less than five leagues from the gate to the eaves of the Golden Wood?).

As for Mirkwood (if that's the elves you had in mind?), tensions might have been somewhat lessened after the Battle of the Five Armies, when they fought together. After reclaiming Erebor, dwarves did in fact travel from Erebor all the way to Eriador, and they would probably have to go through Mirkwood to manage that, so the elves did at least allow them passage through the woods. They might even have restored the old dwarven road that passed through Mirkwood, though I don't think there's anything said about it.

Originally Posted by Thaimli

I wouldn't know why they would go the Western side

So that we, the players, could enter from the Western side. The game needed us to enter Moria from Eregion (since the Red Horn pass was snowed in), and thus, we have the Iron Garrison entering Moria from there, instead of the much more logical option of entering from the East.

The Iron Garrison does make a reference to taking the West Gate so that they could visit Glóin in Rivendell before entering Moria (suggesting that their route involved crossing the High Pass, the same route that Thorin and Company used, and that they then travelled south along the Misty Mountains), seeking what insight he might have, but I think that's just trying to cover up the fact that having them entering Moria from the west was purely for the sake of gameplay; Gameplay first, try to fit with lore as best as possible later.

Originally Posted by Macfeast

The Iron Garrison does make a reference to taking the West Gate so that they could visit Glóin in Rivendell before entering Moria (suggesting that their route involved crossing the High Pass, the same route that Thorin and Company used, and that they then travelled south along the Misty Mountains), seeking what insight he might have, but I think that's just trying to cover up the fact that having them entering Moria from the west was purely for the sake of gameplay; Gameplay first, try to fit with lore as best as possible later.

Does it actually say that the Iron Garrison were Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain? I don't remember. It could be that they were a collection of Dwarves from all over who set out from Thorin's Hall, making the West entrance the most logical entry.

Originally Posted by Gui_Incognito

Does it actually say that the Iron Garrison were Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain? I don't remember. It could be that they were a collection of Dwarves from all over who set out from Thorin's Hall, making the West entrance the most logical entry.

It does say (indirectly, granted) that they came from the East, and I'm also fairly sure that it says somewhere that they were given Dáin's blessing before setting out. So, I would assume so.

From http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ques...Bósi_the_Dwarf (this was the first one to come to mind, I'm sure there are more references to it):

Bósi: 'Thank you for bringing me this, <name>, and also for your efforts on our behalf. Our work here has been going more slowly than we expected.
'My cousin Brogur and I determined to seek Balin within Moria some months ago, but it took many weeks to assemble an expedition of dwarves willing to accompany us. We chose a roundabout way over the mountains so as to speak with Lord Glóin, a close friend of our fathers, about Khazad-dûm.
'His words were grim; I do not think he believes that our expedition will succeed. 'It has been too long without a word,' he said to us, 'for Balin son of Fundin to live still within the Mines.' I am beginning to perceive the likelihood of his warning, <name>.'

If they started in the West, went to Rivendell to seek Glóin, and then travelled south, then they wouldn't have taken a roundabout way over the mountains...since they wouldn't actually cross any mountains during that trip. Whereas, on the other hand, starting out at Erebor, crossing the Misty Mountains and then heading to the West Gate of Moria, would be a very roundabout way when they could have just gone for the East Gate and not bothered with crossing the mountains.

Seeing as there isn't any further significance storywise to them seeking Glóin's advice (I think this is the only time it ever comes up), my feeling is that it was only supposed to be justification for having the Iron Garrison enter from the West, when entering from the East would have made more sense; An excuse so that we could enter Moria from the West (and I should note that I'm not suggesting that it being an excuse makes it a bad thing).

It might also help that Bósi is the son of Bifur, and the unfortunate adventurer Nykr is specifically said to have left his "mate" back in the Lonely Mountain (whom I - more than anything - expect to find there, provided they ever take us to that place ) But among all Dwarven chatter there must more mentions of Erebor.

Aside from the recent posts discussing why they came in from the West, I've always assumed that the dwarves we meet to assist in opening the west gate knew the secret of the moon letters, and managed to dig up something in their archives that contained the password or information on how it would be discerned.

Originally Posted by Macfeast

(Discussion about the accessability of the eastern gate of Moria.)

Good catch on the book in the Chamber of Mazarbul. I didn't exactly think about the game (I haven't really been to Lórien much, as I do not play much and level even slower), but rather on the maps I have, the woods seems to extend to the Dimrill Dale. Indeed Mirkwood Elves likely did not block the road: But the Galadhrim seem to be of a more aggressive sort. Of course, there might be old roads made by the Dwarves that were still in passable condition (at least for Dwarves themselves) leading to the gate. And in any case, I think Balin's company wasn't exactly very large - certainly quite large to occupy multiple halls, even if spread thin - but I understand they could not afford to keep much contact back to Erebor. (Of course, the distances may also explain some of that.)

Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

But when we go there the door is already shining, meaning that one of the dwarves knew the secret? That's surprising when even Gimli did not know. The same can be said of the password to open it.

Simple answer: I think Turbine fiddled it for the sake of simplicity. If the ithildin on the doors was not already glowing, then you wouldn't be able to readily see where they were - remember, it took Gandalf some little while to find them in the first place, and not only did he know what he was looking for but he didn't have to contend with heaps of boulders and ripped-up holly-trees. I reckon the devs just wanted to recreate the memorable image of the Doors straight away.