Discussion: Too Much Agility?

I was wondering; if there is a point where increasing agility becomes of minimal improvement; and you're better off putting those points into another stat? I know some people say you can never have enough; and i've seen a couple burgs with like 2k agility (consequently their other stats are lower, of course).

RJ Ferret prevously mentioned: "Crit rating helps when your agility is effectively capped (around 1200 at level 75 it seems, when things increase by a tenth of a percent instead of a significant amount)."

While i definetly noticed a huge difference when I first reached lvl 75; and equiped some new armor and jewelry; since then its pretty much been just fine tuning as you find appropriate loot in battles... and i don't notice much of a difference in combat

Currently i have 1400 agility; my vit is 750 or so, and i have about 7.4k morale, so i feel i'm fine there...

thanks for any advice...

There are no diminishing returns on your primary stat. The more you pump it, the more damage you will do.

Conversely- as you have mentioned by putting everything into your physical mastery you do start to drop on other things. The key is to hit a balance between damage/power-usage/survivability depending on what your goals are. If you PvE exclusively, you will be fine bumping close to 2k or more agi. If you PvMP, then you will need to focus a bit more on survivability.

The stat changes are both good and bad. Good in that you have a great amount of options on how you want your character to play, but bad in that you are amazingly gear dependent.

Personally, I took a more balanced approach. I have like 1400 Agi, but I have ~650 Vit, 450-500 Fate and even some Will. So, I may not deal as much damage, but I can survive a bit longer and I nearly never lack power. And Fate also increase crit.

I go full out damage on gear and jewelry and keep my lis and virtues for the morale im at 2k with 7.8 morale

2139 is still not enough..
need more, damn orthanc braclet doen't wanna drop
But you gotta adapt it to the fight. For Orthanc T2 ID 1-3 you should have ~6.5-7k (~2k agi) morale for the bossfights, for Saruman T2 (~1900 agi) 7-7.5k unbuffed. For everything else ~6k is enough, and since you can cap crit and have a captain/lm most of the time, agi is everything you wanna have. You can never do too much damage, since you have vanish

Theres no such thing as too much agility. Only too little moral.

Envoyé par Exebius

I was wondering; if there is a point where increasing agility becomes of minimal improvement; and you're better off putting those points into another stat? I know some people say you can never have enough; and i've seen a couple burgs with like 2k agility (consequently their other stats are lower, of course).

RJ Ferret prevously mentioned: "Crit rating helps when your agility is effectively capped (around 1200 at level 75 it seems, when things increase by a tenth of a percent instead of a significant amount)."

While i definetly noticed a huge difference when I first reached lvl 75; and equiped some new armor and jewelry; since then its pretty much been just fine tuning as you find appropriate loot in battles... and i don't notice much of a difference in combat

Currently i have 1400 agility; my vit is 750 or so, and i have about 7.4k morale, so i feel i'm fine there...

thanks for any advice...

I'm running in the moors with 1209 agility and 900 vitality with 7600 morale and it's a bare minimum for me to do some damage, when I ran with 1100 agility and 1000 vitality with 8500 morale I hit like a wet noodle. If I get better jewelry and fine tune my stuff I'd like to get slightly more agility. I've seen 6800 morale burgs die very fast without HIPs up when they get ganked in PVMP when running solo but the burgs on Brandywine seem to group/raid or gank solos at the rez circles or creeps that busy questing and they seem to be getting ridiculous crits at 1700 and 1800 agility with around 7K morale. They don't seem to be able to handle 3 or more creeps with CDs up at all but most burgs have always struggled with more than two non green creeps going back to 2009.

If you're talking PVE, well, good RKs and minis keep the crazy agility burgs up from what I've seen so you could run more than 1200 if you want but you gotta grind skirmishes and saruman, etc. to get the jewelry that will boost you over 1200.

Ive just been looking at the forums, I just hit lvl 75 with my burg today, so just wanted to read these comments. I dont have anything to share other then this..

As a healer (which is probably my main toon, even if I have several 75s) I like to see lights and mediums (the squishy classes) with at least 6500 in a raid. Anything below that hurts spike damage and effects how you heal. Anytime I have to concentrate on one of the squishy classes, can lead to failure. There are times when Im pumping a tank for everything I have (in healing speck , Im at 44.9% outgoing with close to 1700 will and 8k power, I could "get" more will and power, but then I dont like being less then near that 7k morale when Im healing, the same rule applies to me, as I would ask of anyone in the raid.)

There is no such as too much "Main" stat for anyone, however, you CAN have too little morale and power. In fact Ive seen alot of people not stack near enough power. Ive seen minis come into a raid with 5k.. Thats ridicolous. You job is to keep everyone up, with massive amounts of power, you can do some pretty amazing things. What good is a hunter without enough power to sustain him, Ive seen some pretty wierd builds, hunters iwth over 1600 agility with like 1800 power and stuff.. I dont care what your gear looks like, you have that little power, I can gaurantee I will out dps you at boss time. Even with my 3k on my hunter, Im still forced to use power returns during boss fights. If I have almost double the power the other hunter has.. there is no way Im not out dpsing! You have to be hitting something to dps! My champ is my worst of all my toons for power pools, hes only 1900, but I have a much larger incombat power and also a constant second wind button I can spam. So its not nearly as bad as some other classes. RKs are near the worst, and burgs dont have a great power return either. Rks didnt scale with roi.. so its pathetic return of like 700 or so which you can burn through in like 20 seconds if your dpsing.

Interesting how many replies don't entirely relate to the question.

Envoyé par Exebius

I was wondering; if there is a point where increasing agility becomes of minimal improvement; and you're better off putting those points into another stat? I know some people say you can never have enough; and i've seen a couple burgs with like 2k agility (consequently their other stats are lower, of course).

RJ Ferret prevously mentioned: "Crit rating helps when your agility is effectively capped (around 1200 at level 75 it seems, when things increase by a tenth of a percent instead of a significant amount)."

There's a HUGE difference between crit rating and physical mastery; the former is a curve, the latter is not. (All the replies talking about damage are relating to physical mastery.)

The simple thing to do, is look at the percentage benefit you got from something (IE, phys mastery, crit, evade, etc.) Now take off some items that drop your agility and see what the percentage is afterward.

One has to think, if they removed the 15% caps on things, how could they do that without the entire game balance breaking? The answer? Change the formula so higher amounts aren't as significant.

For technical details and fun graphs, see this thread: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...on-and-Offence

If I swap my agility jewelry for my vitality/morale jewelry, my agility drops 125, while I gain 1241 morale. Meanwhile my crit and evade drop less than a percent, while my mitigations increase almost 2%. My resistance increases just a half a percent.

As others have pointed out though, physical mastery doesn't have the same diminishing returns, it's still technically a curve (actually a series of curves), but essentially linear. In my test here, the difference in the percentages is 6.7%.

Below 1000 in your main stat, each point significantly affects things. Folks found once you started going higher, the impact was less. 1200 seemed to be the number folks in the forums started using as the target benchmark. More properly, they'd specifically look at the spot where the curve started dropping off (15% for evade and crit chance).

So to answer the question, the point at which increasing agility doesn't give you as much bang for your buck, is when things pass 15%. Would you be better off putting those points into another stat? That depends on what you are doing and what you would gain by it.

In my case, I drop my agility when I do group content. Why? I do zero damage defeated. In a group, my primary purpose is to debuff and increase the group's damage, my own damage is secondary, or even tertiary if I'm on CC.

In solo, most 3-person and similar content, I want my agility as high as possible (unless I'm the tank).

Or think of it this way, if I'm running in Quiet Knife stance, my agility is pumped all the way; if I'm running in Gambler or Mischief, I've dropped my agility. Either way, all the things agility gives you remain effectively unchanged (aside from Physical Mastery obviously), but all the things vitality gives you are increased.

Silverkelt's response is timely, your build affects others' play, which affects the entire group's success.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Envoyé par silverkelt

.....

There is no such as too much "Main" stat for anyone, however, you CAN have too little morale and power. In fact Ive seen alot of people not stack near enough power. Ive seen minis come into a raid with 5k.. Thats ridicolous. You job is to keep everyone up, with massive amounts of power, you can do some pretty amazing things. What good is a hunter without enough power to sustain him, Ive seen some pretty wierd builds, hunters iwth over 1600 agility with like 1800 power and stuff.. I dont care what your gear looks like, you have that little power, I can gaurantee I will out dps you at boss time. Even with my 3k on my hunter, Im still forced to use power returns during boss fights. If I have almost double the power the other hunter has.. there is no way Im not out dpsing! You have to be hitting something to dps! My champ is my worst of all my toons for power pools, hes only 1900, but I have a much larger incombat power and also a constant second wind button I can spam. So its not nearly as bad as some other classes. RKs are near the worst, and burgs dont have a great power return either. Rks didnt scale with roi.. so its pathetic return of like 700 or so which you can burn through in like 20 seconds if your dpsing.

One of the troubles with the new stat mechanics is that most DPS class players are encouraged to neglect fate and ICPR jewelery. On my burglar, my goal is to be pretty much self supporting for power. My Burg has 1900 power, but with a baseline Fate of 380 plus a couple ICPR jewelery pieces and LI relics means that I can self-support my power needs with just an occasional Celebrant potion.

One quick thing to add, Tactical Mitigation is very important for certain content. Consider dumping straight morale virtues like valour for Fidelity and Tolerance. As well as equipping cloaks and jewelry that help this out (i.e. Sarchol) for one. See what it's at for typical buffs including scrolls, IDOME and Anthem of Composure. Cap is 50% for medium armour. And incoming healing is not a stat to completely ignore either, IMO. So far, people have only been citing Ag, and total morale. I'd rather avoid, or absorb damage rather than rely on a giant morale bucket.

As for the moors? Don't play out there that much on freep, let alone burg, but I'd rather hit harder than survive a zerg attack a few seconds longer. I build my warg the same way....damage, not morale.

Envoyé par RJFerret

If I swap my agility jewelry for my vitality/morale jewelry, my agility drops 125, while I gain 1241 morale. Meanwhile my crit and evade drop less than a percent, while my mitigations increase almost 2%. My resistance increases just a half a percent.[/i]

I'm glad you reminded me of that; i have tendency to just look at the number; and be like "darn, i lost 1k phys mastery with that change" when in reality that difference might be insignificant percentage wise... Definetly gonna have to play around with my gear tonight.

Envoyé par RJFerret

So to answer the question, the point at which increasing agility doesn't give you as much bang for your buck, is when things pass 15%. Would you be better off putting those points into another stat? That depends on what you are doing and what you would gain by it.

In my case, I drop my agility when I do group content. Why? I do zero damage defeated. In a group, my primary purpose is to debuff and increase the group's damage, my own damage is secondary, or even tertiary if I'm on CC.

In solo, most 3-person and similar content, I want my agility as high as possible (unless I'm the tank).[/i]

thats interesting; i was usually doing things backwards; when solo or small groups i would usually want higher morale and more phys mitigation; and in large groups; since there usually atleast a couple healers; I wouldn't worry so much about my morale...

though; i have to admit; i don't like changing my equipment up once i get a setup i like; i try to find something that will work good enough whether I am soloing; raiding, or out in the moors...

Thanks again for the tips

Envoyé par Irenmund

One quick thing to add, Tactical Mitigation is very important for certain content. Consider dumping straight morale virtues like valour for Fidelity and Tolerance. As well as equipping cloaks and jewelry that help this out (i.e. Sarchol) for one. See what it's at for typical buffs including scrolls, IDOME and Anthem of Composure. Cap is 50% for medium armour. And incoming healing is not a stat to completely ignore either, IMO. So far, people have only been citing Ag, and total morale. I'd rather avoid, or absorb damage rather than rely on a giant morale bucket.

As for the moors? Don't play out there that much on freep, let alone burg, but I'd rather hit harder than survive a zerg attack a few seconds longer. I build my warg the same way....damage, not morale.

i never paid much attention to tactical mitigation; i usually looked for phys mit... currently i have both around 4k. I was actualy using that cloak (Sarchol) until recently, when I aquired the wyrmscale cloak. The 1.5k mitigation and 300 morale are nice to have... was a tough choice swapping that out...

You dont need physical mitigation at all. Usually you only take AoE damage and thats always tactical damage.
If you pull aggro of a trashmob it usually doesnt matter. KO or TaG if needed and heal yourself with the revealing mark by doing damage. If you pull aggro of a boss -> vanish. No need to give up damage for morale, since 6k are enough to survive everything if played right. It just makes things faster
Only exception: AoE heavy bosses (Orthanc T2) and thats where you wanna have the tactical mitigation / more morale.

Envoyé par Irenmund

One quick thing to add, Tactical Mitigation is very important for certain content. Consider dumping straight morale virtues like valour for Fidelity and Tolerance. As well as equipping cloaks and jewelry that help this out (i.e. Sarchol) for one. See what it's at for typical buffs including scrolls, IDOME and Anthem of Composure. Cap is 50% for medium armour. And incoming healing is not a stat to completely ignore either, IMO. So far, people have only been citing Ag, and total morale. I'd rather avoid, or absorb damage rather than rely on a giant morale bucket.

As for the moors? Don't play out there that much on freep, let alone burg, but I'd rather hit harder than survive a zerg attack a few seconds longer. I build my warg the same way....damage, not morale.

that is the reason why the tactical mittigation neck from foundry will never be replaced by the gold neck from ToO by me. I would take the cloak with its verry minimal upgrade :/

Envoyé par RJFerret

So to answer the question, the point at which increasing agility doesn't give you as much bang for your buck, is when things pass 15%. Would you be better off putting those points into another stat?

Look at the curves for offense vs mitigations. One is pointing to the sky, while the other is pointing at the wall. Mitigations for medium armor begin to tank at 20%, and everyone hits that with just armor (without virtues equipped at all). Even in the 5th stage of the curve for offense, (80% to 100%) adding 920 more offense increases my Moff by 3.2% while adding a scroll of warding (+1009 melee and tac D) adds 3.1% to the respective defense types (@19.9% and 26.8% melee/tac defense). Defense gets worse, point-for-point, when I put my virtues back on and I am raid buffed. Parry, evade, and resistance are subject to finesse.

There is very little that can 1-shot you in pve-land at 6.6k morale after buffs.

Trading agility for another stat is *at best* an even trade... and then only after you have pumped agi to the 1800+ territory. That's not even counting the noticeable impact that the offense is bringing to the table because the DPS numbers that they are increasing have been inflated to the level of "wumba"... but I won't go into that.

Envoyé par Irenmund

One quick thing to add, Tactical Mitigation is very important for certain content. Consider dumping straight morale virtues like valour for Fidelity and Tolerance. As well as equipping cloaks and jewelry that help this out (i.e. Sarchol) for one. See what it's at for typical buffs including scrolls, IDOME and Anthem of Composure. Cap is 50% for medium armour. And incoming healing is not a stat to completely ignore either, IMO. So far, people have only been citing Ag, and total morale. I'd rather avoid, or absorb damage rather than rely on a giant morale bucket.

Absolutely. The best place to get those things with minimal tradeoffs is in virtues and relics though... Gearing for those things is pretty dubious, except in special circumstances.

I agree, there is no such thing as too much agility, only too little morale.

When reaching 75 I had 1.8k agility with just over 4k morale, obviously it was too little, even when buffed during raids.

I now have

2,095 Agility,
29,800 Phys Mastery (109.6% Damage)
5.7k Morale
2.1k Power
1.2k ICPR
19.5% Crit, 7.5% Dev
20.5% Evade.

I do have morale jewellery and armour in my inventory at all times in case it is needed, however the only place I truely need the morale gear is Helegrod Giants. For everything else I use full damage gear and I am an asset not a liability.

The stats with my full morale gear...

1,045 Agility
17,600 Phys Mastery (68.3% Damage)
8.6k Morale
2.1k Power
900 ICPR
13.7% Crit, 4.5% Dev
14.4% Evade.

When buffed in a raid I get just over 10k Morale which makes incredibly hard to kill but I'm much less effective.

I know my 2nd set of stats would show a bigger increase if I changed my relics to morale boosting relics but as I explained about there is just no use.

I do also PvP a lot, but I'm not the kind of player to take care of my wartab or rating. I can dot creeps for 270+ and kill those without stun releases in the 8second stun. With morale gear this simply isn't possible.

I know I won't change the opinion of the majority as high morale is often mistakenly perceived as making you better than those with lower morale. When in my opinion, it probably makes you worse, or certainly less effective.

I agree you can't do any DPS when dead, and even if not required it's a nice contingency for when things don't go to plan. But if you can do close to the damage of Hunters, Champs and Runekeeper's then it greatly increases your chance of success in raids.

I tend to run quite balanced. Good DPS but good Morale also. There are a few key items which make the difference imo. Recently I got hold of the ring from foundry, Trenardhrin. No one else took it so I thought I would incorporate it into my set up and have a play around with it. It worked out very well. (but then any item with +337 morale will help out) With a mix of items i am running presently with.........

1.6k Agility
7K Morale
8K Crit
1.4K ICPR
22K Physical Mastery

This set up for me is perfectly balanced. Good morale, decent damage and high crits.

God I love the burg.....

well, after trying out different setups last night; I ended up with:

7k morale
might 156
agility 1370, phys mastery 19k
vit 725
will 93
fate 442

crit 6.5k; finesse 6.3k
evade 7.1k

phys mit 4.4k; tact mit 4.6k

I have the riddler's ring; which gives +122 agility; but i can never seem to work it into my setup; just have it there in the vault for now. I could probably give up a little morale and get some more agility... I think this is the most balanced setup i could come up with...