I personally would love to be able to craft arrows and javelins, especially with different damage types available. I don't see why Turbine doesn't introduce this option? And before all the hunter start screaming, I don't mean not being able to use a bow without crafted arrows, I mean to improve damage, in the same way that Shield Spike kits improve damage for shield users.
Shield use is not dependent on crafted shield spikes, the spikes only improve shield damage, and add different damage types to the basic damage that shields do anyway. Crafted arrows could be used in the same way to improve bow damage, allowing extra damage or converting to a particular type of damage depending on what was crafted. So instead of having to carry a load of different weapons wo deal Westerness, Ancient Dwarf or which ever damage is needed in a particular situation, you could 'use' different types of arrows or javelins in the same way that Hunters use fire oil at the moment.
Or perhaps Turbine would consider the crafting of poisons that do these different damage types, so that they could be used to adapt the damage of any weapon coated in them, so that melee weapon users could benefit as well? What does anyone else think of the ability to adapt your main weapon to whichever damage is required rather than having to carry a load of different weapons just so you can select the one that does the damage you need in any given situation?
First of all, you can already craft javelins.
Second, on legendary weapons you can already change the damage type as you wish, and basically 99.9% of hunters uses these after lvl 45.
And how would introducing arrows/poisons save space or make anything more practical, since (in order to switch between damage types in every situation) you would have to carry 3 stacks of different poisons/arrows and apply/switch them before each fight.
Lastly, I doubt many people switch to westernesse every time they want to kill a wight or beleriand when they want to kill a half-orc. Most people just pick one they will use the most and stick to it...
3 types of bow chants, fire oil, light oil, various scroll for Legendary Weapon damage type. Isn't that enough? Add the 3 types of traps i carry, and my bags are bursting.
Although I do like the idea of adding 'Poison Oil', they would have to be similar the fire/light oils. Even then i probably would not use them do to bag space.
First of all, you can already craft javelins.
Second, on legendary weapons you can already change the damage type as you wish, and basically 99.9% of hunters uses these after lvl 45.
And how would introducing arrows/poisons save space or make anything more practical, since (in order to switch between damage types in every situation) you would have to carry 3 stacks of different poisons/arrows and apply/switch them before each fight.
Lastly, I doubt many people switch to westernesse every time they want to kill a wight or beleriand when they want to kill a half-orc. Most people just pick one they will use the most and stick to it...
After reading the comments so far and reconsidering, I think the potion idea much better than crafting arrow/javelins as every class could take advantage of the potions to 'coat' their weapons.
1) This not just about hunters, but rather all classes that use weapons.
2) Legendary weapons do not even apply until half way through the game.
3) Lore 'junkies' do not complain about fire oils or light oils, so why complain about potions (To avoid the word poison)?
4) Would a choice of 'potions' use more bag space than the different types of Spike Kits which are only available to shield users?
5) Why shouldn't non-shield users have a way of switching damage types?
6) It is easy enough to select the 'potion' you need in advance, ie; for hunting undead, invading a spider nest, hunting trolls, attacking a goblin fortress, raiding the Dourhands, etc. to select the damage type that would be most appropriate for the job at hand.
7) Most people may not use them, but then maybe they might if the option was available to them. After all not all Hunters may use Fire/Light Oils, but the option is available for those that want to use them. Why not let other classes have a choice to use these 'potions' if they wish, it wouldn't be compulsory to use them.
Last edited by podgie_bear; Feb 14 2012 at 07:27 AM.
Turbine went through this with Asherons Call. Archers had to make/buy arrows and carry them. People screamed about it due to cost /inventory/time. The archers spent more coin than everyone else to play thier class. Archers had less inventory room due to bundles of arrows with various damage types. In addition they had to spend an hour crafting to be able to spend an hour playing or pay outrageous prices on the AH for arrows. It was a huge headache they avoided when designing LOTRO.
Poisons might also upset lore junkies, because they are more orc/goblin thing, not something Free Peoples would use.
Agreed, poisons are something the minions of Sauron/Saruman would use, not something the Free People would use.
There are fire and light oils available to both hunters and wardens, plus the various damage types available on bows/crossbows/javelins (westernesse, ancient dwarf, beleriand and a few that have light damage). Once a player starts using legendary weapons they can change the basic damage type of the weapon just by getting the right type of scroll and using it on their weapon.
As for craftable arrows, that could be done in the same way traps are handled, a consumable item that has a cooldown between each use. It's another bag slot used up and another slot on a skill bar, so not everyone would think it's a great idea, but personally I don't see any serious gameplay problems to the idea. You could do the same with consumable javelins as well for wardens.
The real question is what would these crafted arrows/javelins actually do? Would they just do more dps or would they do something else (eg: a stronger slow on a mob, or a stronger bleed, or a longer fear)? If you want multiple types of crafted arrows/javelins that each do something different, bag space/skillbar space could become a more significant issue.
3 types of bow chants, fire oil, light oil, various scroll for Legendary Weapon damage type. Isn't that enough? Add the 3 types of traps i carry, and my bags are bursting.
Quoted for emphasis. As it is, my hunters have to drag around way too much stuff, I really don't want another consumable.
I'm not interested in arrows or poisons for my hunter. Too much stuff already and I don't even attempt to carry all that I can.
That said, this idea did get me thinking.
I could get behind a quiver that doubles as cosmetic and some sort of hunter buff. Not sure what that would be but at least a quiver is a plop it in place and forget it sort of thing. For a while now, I've been thinking that a class specific item replacing the cloaks would be cool cosmetically but if we could make these class specific items do more than just look good, I want to hear those ideas.
Turbine went through this with Asherons Call. Archers had to make/buy arrows and carry them. People screamed about it due to cost /inventory/time. The archers spent more coin than everyone else to play thier class. Archers had less inventory room due to bundles of arrows with various damage types. In addition they had to spend an hour crafting to be able to spend an hour playing or pay outrageous prices on the AH for arrows. It was a huge headache they avoided when designing LOTRO.
I think everyone should read this and learn from it.
Never, ever make things more complicated than they need to be in a video game. The way you approach realism in a video game is by approximation, not by translating real-world concepts directly to the game. Sure, it would be fun if my Hunter carried different types of arrows and they showed up on his character. What wouldn't be fun would be to manage 10 different stacks of arrows in his inventory, cutting down on precious space I need for potions, food, traveling rations (2 stacks ) and, most importantly, loot. As well as reserving 10 different hotkeys and/or slots for these arrows.
I think everyone should read this and learn from it.
Never, ever make things more complicated than they need to be in a video game. The way you approach realism in a video game is by approximation, not by translating real-world concepts directly to the game. Sure, it would be fun if my Hunter carried different types of arrows and they showed up on his character. What wouldn't be fun would be to manage 10 different stacks of arrows in his inventory, cutting down on precious space I need for potions, food, traveling rations (2 stacks ) and, most importantly, loot. As well as reserving 10 different hotkeys and/or slots for these arrows.
When AC was written and released, things were different. Gamers were more experienced *as*gamers* (even if not online or even on computer). This flavored AC quite a bit. Not only were missile weapons consumable (not just arrows, but javelins as well), but so were spell components and every thing had weight--burden in that games terms--including all the loot and even the money.
They later dropped burden on money, and not everyone was happy with that change.
AC wasn't actually all that extreme with realism. I played one game--desktop PC, not MMO--in which *everything* had wear, including your boots. You also had a chance to get sick and if not cured might die of it. It was *way* too much realism for me and I gave up on it fairly quickly. AC, on the other hand, I played for years. I didn't finally stop playing AC until several months after LoTRO came out.
The general trend in MMOs, so far as I can tell, is increased abstraction over time. Part of this is probably to reduce the frustration level of people new to gaming, new to computer games, and--especially--new to online games. This is part and parcel of the complaints of self-styled "old school" and "uber" gamers about the "dumbing down" of games. This is done by the game companies to widen the pool of potential customers, and it has worked. There are far more people playing MMOs today than there were a decade or more ago. (There are also, of course, far more MMOs for them to play, too, which means that the game companies *have* to grow the pool of players or get squeezed out of the market.)
The general trend in MMOs, so far as I can tell, is increased abstraction over time. Part of this is probably to reduce the frustration level of people new to gaming, new to computer games, and--especially--new to online games. This is part and parcel of the complaints of self-styled "old school" and "uber" gamers about the "dumbing down" of games. This is done by the game companies to widen the pool of potential customers, and it has worked. There are far more people playing MMOs today than there were a decade or more ago. (There are also, of course, far more MMOs for them to play, too, which means that the game companies *have* to grow the pool of players or get squeezed out of the market.)
I think you're completely right on that point, even if I'm a bit unsure of what you mean by "increased abstraction over time" (game gets more complicated and demanding on the player?)
I am, however, split on the issue on whether this is a good or a bad thing. Games are about having fun, first of all. At least to me. Not everyone has the same idea of what constitutes fun, and trying to reach a kind of happy medium for hardcore and casual (ugh, those words again) gamers is bound to fail. Or maybe not? Maybe a hardcore gamer can still have fun with a simplistic game, when they realise it's not a competition but a group effort, everyone just trying to have a good time regardless of skill level? Maybe I am a bit too much in the "casual" trench, even though I have been gaming for decades, but I have played a lot of different MMOs over the last couple years when f2p really starting being a big thing, and I've had quite a lot of fun with most of them, even though there were always these complaints from the old gang about "dumbing down".
Did I have fun just because the game was new and fresh to me? Maybe, but bear in mind that I've been playing MMO's for years, and if a game is TOO simplistic (City of Heroes for instance), I lose interest quickly.
I think you're completely right on that point, even if I'm a bit unsure of what you mean by "increased abstraction over time" (game gets more complicated and demanding on the player?)
It is the removal of realism elements.
For example, you do not carry or make arrows any more. The concept of arrow is "abstracted". The making of feathers, shafts, heads, assembly, carrying them around, the right arrow for the current target is all happening in zero time without any thought on our part. we reach into the hidden quiver to pull another of the infinite supply of arrows.
We do not eat, we do not sleep, we do not poop. We heal rapidly via an abstract concept of Out Of Combat Regeneration. We never have to go to the doctor or the hospital. We get sick - We drink a disease potion which cures all diseases - instantly.
Even things like darkness and weather effects are abstracted. No stumbling into a mob in the darkness. No stepping in a hole breaking a leg. Need splint and doctor. Instead it is crunch from a jump - few seconds you are fully mobline again. In real life, lots of people outdoors die from weather effects - drowning and other terrain issues. None of that for us.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Apr 29 2012 at 04:19 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
For example, you do not carry or make arrows any more. The concept of arrow is "abstracted". The making of feathers, shafts, heads, assembly, carrying them around, the right arrow for the current target is all happening in zero time without any thought on our part. we reach into the hidden quiver to pull another of the infinite supply of arrows.
We do not eat, we do not sleep, we do not poop. We heal rapidly via an abstract concept of Out Of Combat Regeneration. We never have to go to the doctor or the hospital. We get sick - We drink a disease potion which cures all diseases - instantly.
Even things like darkness and weather effects are abstracted. No stumbling into a mob in the darkness. No stepping in a hole breaking a leg. Need splint and doctor. Instead it is crunch from a jump - few seconds you are fully mobline again. In real life, lots of people outdoors die from weather effects - drowning and other terrain issues. None of that for us.
Sure, all of that would be fun. In a different game. With the way this game works, no. I'm all for minimum resource, running for your life realism game play, as long as the game is designed to make that experience enjoyable. All of those things implemented in LotrO without a complete overhaul of the way the entire game mehchanics work would make me quit. Immediately.
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Originally Posted by Kaldenas
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) and, most importantly, loot. As well as reserving 10 different hotkeys and/or slots for these arrows.
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