Thread: RK Healers

The below rant/question is to those RKs that enjoy healing, find it extraordinarily rewarding, and would rather be healing than DPSing at end-game content (read: Tower of Orthanc - sorry, skirmish raids and draigoch don't count).

There was a time, a long while back, when I first rolled my RK to heal, that I got into a kinship (during the DN/BG days) that had me heal 95% of the time with one other minstrel. I had the most fun during those days, and I enjoyed every minute of healing. That kin collapsed (due to losing interest in the game). Fast forward to my present kin that I joined just before OD was released.

I'm in a kin that has 2-3 minstrels available for nearly every Tower raid, which effectively means I heal very little (read: almost never) on my RK. It doesn't matter that I still think RKs and minstrels compliment each other very nicely - even given some of the limitations we have with healing (including buffs/utility) in Tower. It also doesn't matter that I've gone to great lengths to build my RK to the max - both in DPS and in heal spec. I have, literally, all three teal sets. I'm at 48.2% outgoing healing while maintaining 7950 morale unbuffed and capped tactical mitigation when buffed in my healing spec. I am a very hardcore raider. I live and breathe raids. That's all. None of that matters, because, quite simply, when we have minstrels online, and they almost always are raid nights, they're asked to heal.

I healed ToO exactly once - Shadow t2 and Saruman tier 1 some weeks back. 2 of our 3 minstrels weren't able to show up that night. We did well, I thought. Things went pretty smoothly and even the minstrel (also one of the leaders of our raids) admitted it was easier to heal with 1 mini + 1 RK. But, then, my happy little bubble was burst as soon as the other two minstrels signed online on subsequent raid nights:P

Now, I do have a regular spot in t2 raids - as a DPSer. I'm rather glad that I don't normally get asked to sit (my kin generally has 15-18 members on at any given raid night). I've worked hard as a player to prove my worth.

I enjoy DPSing. I do, but I don't enjoy it near as much as I enjoy healing. It's been a bit tough for me, to realize that I will only be asked to heal when there aren't minstrels available. I doubt it will change even if RKs get some buffs to our overall healing come Update 6. We'll still have the same minstrels.

So, to the other RKs that are experiencing what I've mentioned above:
How are you dealing with it? Do you find it a bit disappointing that you're only asked to heal when there aren't minstrels available - assuming you'd rather be healing in the first place?
I suppose I should be thankful - after all, I am a class that can do both very well, so it makes sense that I wouldn't be asked to heal if we have minstrels. Minstrels aren't taken to raids as sustained DPS - RKs are. That should make me feel better, but it doesn't most of the time, because.... again, I'd rather be healing.
I could join another kin, which would probably be foolish given the position I have within my present kin, but I'd have to be assured that they either 1) don't have minstrels and/or 2) have minstrels, but would readily take an RK healer despite having minstrels.
/End rant.

Originally Posted by Thyinnerfire1

The below rant/question is to those RKs that enjoy healing, find it extraordinarily rewarding, and would rather be healing than DPSing at end-game content (read: Tower of Orthanc - sorry, skirmish raids and draigoch don't count).

There was a time, a long while back, when I first rolled my RK to heal, that I got into a kinship (during the DN/BG days) that had me heal 95% of the time with one other minstrel. I had the most fun during those days, and I enjoyed every minute of healing. That kin collapsed (due to losing interest in the game). Fast forward to my present kin that I joined just before OD was released.

I'm in a kin that has 2-3 minstrels available for nearly every Tower raid, which effectively means I heal very little (read: almost never) on my RK. It doesn't matter that I still think RKs and minstrels compliment each other very nicely - even given some of the limitations we have with healing (including buffs/utility) in Tower. It also doesn't matter that I've gone to great lengths to build my RK to the max - both in DPS and in heal spec. I have, literally, all three teal sets. I'm at 48.2% outgoing healing while maintaining 7950 morale unbuffed and capped tactical mitigation when buffed in my healing spec. I am a very hardcore raider. I live and breathe raids. That's all. None of that matters, because, quite simply, when we have minstrels online, and they almost always are raid nights, they're asked to heal.

I healed ToO exactly once - Shadow t2 and Saruman tier 1 some weeks back. 2 of our 3 minstrels weren't able to show up that night. We did well, I thought. Things went pretty smoothly and even the minstrel (also one of the leaders of our raids) admitted it was easier to heal with 1 mini + 1 RK. But, then, my happy little bubble was burst as soon as the other two minstrels signed online on subsequent raid nights:P

Now, I do have a regular spot in t2 raids - as a DPSer. I'm rather glad that I don't normally get asked to sit (my kin generally has 15-18 members on at any given raid night). I've worked hard as a player to prove my worth.

I enjoy DPSing. I do, but I don't enjoy it near as much as I enjoy healing. It's been a bit tough for me, to realize that I will only be asked to heal when there aren't minstrels available. I doubt it will change even if RKs get some buffs to our overall healing come Update 6. We'll still have the same minstrels.

So, to the other RKs that are experiencing what I've mentioned above:
How are you dealing with it? Do you find it a bit disappointing that you're only asked to heal when there aren't minstrels available - assuming you'd rather be healing in the first place?
I suppose I should be thankful - after all, I am a class that can do both very well, so it makes sense that I wouldn't be asked to heal if we have minstrels. Minstrels aren't taken to raids as sustained DPS - RKs are. That should make me feel better, but it doesn't most of the time, because.... again, I'd rather be healing.
I could join another kin, which would probably be foolish given the position I have within my present kin, but I'd have to be assured that they either 1) don't have minstrels and/or 2) have minstrels, but would readily take an RK healer despite having minstrels.
/End rant.

You are in a bad kin. Simple as that. The kins that I've been including my current one rotates players so that everyone gets a chance to do what they want as fairly as can possibly be managed within the constraints of class balance. I have always healed relatively often. If your kin values so-called "efficiency" over people it is simply badly run.

I could understand their position if it was simply a matter of the raid being impossible or even inordinately difficult with you healing, but from what you have said this is not the case. If I were you I'd have a chat with the raid leader about why he's not letting you heal, and if he won't let you prove to him that it can be done, leave. I know I would. But don't discount the possibility that he simple doesn't realize how much you want to heal, because I've been in that situation before. In any case, kins exists that do raid content with RK healers, even in this current dour age of our apparent difficulties with spike damage.

personalle been healing lots of raid content in my kin with my rk.

have a hunter alt but got bored with the simplicity of the roles he got which is why i love the challenge of keeping a raid up in morale.

as a RK its all about prediction and foresight :-)

Originally Posted by Telcharan

You are in a bad kin. Simple as that. The kins that I've been including my current one rotates players so that everyone gets a chance to do what they want as fairly as can possibly be managed within the constraints of class balance. I have always healed relatively often. If your kin values so-called "efficiency" over people it is simply badly run.

I could understand their position if it was simply a matter of the raid being impossible or even inordinately difficult with you healing, but from what you have said this is not the case. If I were you I'd have a chat with the raid leader about why he's not letting you heal, and if he won't let you prove to him that it can be done, leave. I know I would. But don't discount the possibility that he simple doesn't realize how much you want to heal, because I've been in that situation before. In any case, kins exists that do raid content with RK healers, even in this current dour age of our apparent difficulties with spike damage.

Being good or bad is a matter of perspective. A good, serious raiding kin which main goal is to beat the content, will try to max their classes setup for the best result. That is not bad by any means. If they consider that minstrels fare better than RKs right now for healing - which i agree with, btw - then the OP can feel lucky to have always a spot. Wardens for example don´t get it as easy.

In anyways,for OP i´d try to talk with the leaders and show them that he´s very useful as healer so they let him rotate with minstrels. The issue is, minstrels only have spots as healers so they minstrel players could feel hurted if the RK player would be getting extra spot as healer. In anyways, if you don´t like how you´re doing in a kin, you can always change kin .

My tip would be to wait until Update 6, RKs will improve utility or so i heard. But if your problem is simply that you have too "many" minstrels on rotation ... well, there is not easy solution to that. In anyways, fights like Lightning and Saruman in T2 need 3 healers. The RK should be the 3rd one there.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Being good or bad is a matter of perspective. A good, serious raiding kin which main goal is to beat the content, will try to max their classes setup for the best result. That is not bad by any means. If they consider that minstrels fare better than RKs right now for healing - which i agree with, btw - then the OP can feel lucky to have always a spot. Wardens for example don´t get it as easy.

In anyways,for OP i´d try to talk with the leaders and show them that he´s very useful as healer so they let him rotate with minstrels. The issue is, minstrels only have spots as healers so they minstrel players could feel hurted if the RK player would be getting extra spot as healer. In anyways, if you don´t like how you´re doing in a kin, you can always change kin .

My tip would be to wait until Update 6, RKs will improve utility or so i heard. But if your problem is simply that you have too "many" minstrels on rotation ... well, there is not easy solution to that. In anyways, fights like Lightning and Saruman in T2 need 3 healers. The RK should be the 3rd one there.

Bradegor, I agreed with most everything you said except for the last two sentences. Lightning T2 doesn't require 3 healers. I've healed Lightning T2 fine with just me and a minstrel healing (plus two captains). That was exactly once - when our other minstrels weren't available. Also, our minstrels consistently heal that fine with two healers.
Saruman t2 is far more challenging, but we've still gotten to the fifth phase just fine with two healers (two minstrels - I've never attempted healing Saruman t2 on my RK).

To the OP.. I completely feel your pain! I'm in the exact same boat, basically. I get asked to DPS for raids - never asked to heal even though my raid leader knows that I'd prefer to heal. My kin also has an abundance of minstrels.
You and Bradegor hit the nail exactly though - Because RKs have the ability to either heal or DPS while minstrels realistically only have one role in raids, you won't likely be asked to heal if minstrels are available.
That is the situation I find myself anyway.

Originally Posted by Sizzling

Bradegor, I agreed with most everything you said except for the last two sentences. Lightning T2 doesn't require 3 healers. I've healed Lightning T2 fine with just me and a minstrel healing (plus two captains). That was exactly once - when our other minstrels weren't available. Also, our minstrels consistently heal that fine with two healers.
Saruman t2 is far more challenging, but we've still gotten to the fifth phase just fine with two healers (two minstrels - I've never attempted healing Saruman t2 on my RK).

The 3rd healer on Saruman T2 is not "needed", true, but on T2 Lightning the 3 healers are needed, at least for my raidgroup. There are lots of damage going, specially on last 20%, and we doubt we would do it with just 2. Kudos to you guys for doing it with just 2 healers

This is an unfortunate situation. Your raid leader might be biased towards mini healing (but the compliment in regards to your healing suggests that's not the case.) Maybe the issue is including players. The players who play minis cannot come as DPS, and with being a RK, the advantage to the class is your ability to fill 2 possible raid slots.

Perhaps you can solve the situation by asking the raid leader if one of the minis could come traited fully for buffing. By doing that, the mini can buff group DPS, and give you the opportunity to heal. If the raid leader won't consider that option (i.e. thinks your DPS is more important than mini buffs,) I would start looking for a new raid group. When you look for a new group, tell the leader up front that you desire a healing position, and not a DPS position, so that you don't end up in the situation you are in now.

Or maybe, since minstrels have no choice in a raid but to heal, the raid leader lets them do it so they are included. I understand it sucks not to get a chance to do what you want but at least you get to raid.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

The 3rd healer on Saruman T2 is not "needed", true, but on T2 Lightning the 3 healers are needed, at least for my raidgroup. There are lots of damage going, specially on last 20%, and we doubt we would do it with just 2. Kudos to you guys for doing it with just 2 healers

...."Last Stand" and "In Harms Way" from your Cappys at around 250k and full DPS should solve it...

Well, to start, I won't profess to be the greatest RK or Raid leader around. But we do regularly run kin T1 ToO raids, and occasionally tinker with T2. I still prefer to run our raids with a Mini-RK combo on heals. (Is this just nostalgia from the old DN days?) The few players that are still playing their RKs do a fabulous job healing in our kin. From what I can see RK healing output is still in a good place, and in some situations better than the mini (Gasp!). For instance, last night in Saruman phase II, I noticed that the "all-heals-to" acid dots were instantly clearing off tank2. Basically he was kiting and the RK's stacked HoT's cleared the issue before we could even call it out. Very Nice!

I do wonder how valid the comments are stating that mini's should get the spot because they are not recognized for other viable raid roles, like the mentioned buff-dps approach. From my experience, most of our raiding players have multiple toons. We switch around regularly based on what the raid needs and who wants to play which classes. We have a pretty fun/casual approach and try to mix it up and keep it fun for everyone. This has only ever been an issue immediately after an update and people haven'y had a chance to gear out their second toon yet. To Thyinnerfire1, I'm guessing the suggestions of simply mentioning your desire to heal may end up getting you more opportunities.

I will say though, right or wrong, I feel that there is a general perception that RK's are not as valuable as a mini in a hard run. Having both loved healing on my RK, and more recently leading a lot of ToO raids, I can somewhat relate to the bias. But from my perception, no one ever talks about heals-per-second or true data points. It's the silly little things that are hurting the reputation. Mini's rez in combat, rk's can - but only if they guess ahead right. RK's can out of combat rez... but wait, the mini can do 5 at a time, min's self bubble...RK's don't..blah..blah..blah. In this area... I really do hope the rumours of some ZC RK love in Update 6 are true... our healing raid utility (and rep) could use a boost.



Now, on a completely separate note..

Originally Posted by Thyinnerfire1

I'm at 48.2% outgoing healing while maintaining 7950 morale un-buffed and capped tactical mitigation when buffed in my healing spec.

Woot! Your toon isn't linked to your profile, but could you post what you're running with? I'd reached about that for output, but am almost 2k short on morale. I'd love to achieve this on my RK and I'm curious how you got to there. (or any other RK healers with similar stats).

Thanks all!


[Edit for typos ]

I'm a co-lead for my kin's raiding and have healed ToO t2 for us many times. In general we do believe that a good mini with a good RK is more effective than 2 good minis, but since I've got other alts that're valuable to the raid when needed (burg/cappy), when we have a 2nd solid mini available I let them heal instead of me. But certainly, RKs work exceptionally well with mini's, and if the fight was demanding enough that we thought we needed that little extra bit of synergy I'd probably heal. We also only use 2 healers for lightning and I really don't know why 3 would be necessary.

We've ceased bringing RK healers recently due to fear of the bug, but last week we were forced to use 1 RK and 1 mini on heals, due to lack of a 2nd minstrel. Went quite smoothly, and should the bug ever be fixed we would have no problem bringing healing RKs regularly. I always preferred 1 of each class healing anyway. My kin is very close knit and we're all friends, so we have no issue sacrificing "efficiency" for the sake of getting everyone in as many raids as they want :P.

The issue of having too many minstrels who do not have a DPS toon available is something I understand. I can see how they might see it as unfair if you get to heal instead of them when you could DPS instead. However, it is equally unfair if you never get to heal when you want to. I can't help you with finding an equitable solution best suited to your group as I don't know the details, but there really has to be one. The easiest way is just to put all the healers in a rotation, and if someone doesn't have an alt and it's not their turn to heal they don't go. That may sound cold, but think of it this way: If you had a captain and an RK, and two people only had captains, would that be a justifiable reason for them to always have the captain slots and for you to never take your captain to any raids? The RK is different enough when healing and DPSing that it's pretty much the same as having two different toons. You need to find something that works, and you need to work with your raid leader to do so. Even if you only got to heal every three or four raids it would still be an improvement from the sound of things. If he is unwilling to be flexible or consider alternatives, that's when you may need to start looking for another kin. This is a game, the primary goal is you having fun. If you're constantly doing something you don't fully enjoy, you'll burn out and they'll lose you altogether.

Is it possible that this is a server-related problem? Over at the Big E, at least in my experience, they don't mind RK healers, whoever fills the niche first I guess. Even got asked by the raid leader of an 8-man Draig run to heal if I was feeling confident (I was not, I'm still reluctant to heal through all that AOE).

Also never had that AFE bug, although I'm sort of scared to use it now because of that. I will admit though, I feel safer knowing the other healer is a Mini.

Originally Posted by HandOfMystra

Is it possible that this is a server-related problem? Over at the Big E, at least in my experience, they don't mind RK healers, whoever fills the niche first I guess. Even got asked by the raid leader of an 8-man Draig run to heal if I was feeling confident (I was not, I'm still reluctant to heal through all that AOE).

It does seem to vary depending on server. As far as Arkenstone is concerned, for a while after Moria launch it would occasionally take a bit of convincing to get pug leaders to take me, but most turned around eventually. The ones who didn't at first would often get desperate later. Since Mirkwood at the latest I can't remember a single incident in which I was turned down for a pug group looking for a healer because they wanted a minnie. I've been one of the main healers in the rotation for every kin I've been in.

I suppose one of the reasons may be the number of people on the server. The fewer people, the fewer people vying for every pug spot, which increases the difficulty of getting a minstrel and raising the chances of someone taking an RK who's initially against the idea out of desperation. When the RK heals it easily they're believers. Eventually everyone accepted the idea that RKs can heal fine, and given that 98% of the people who play this game completely ignore the forums (especially class forums for classes they don't play) the hoopla on this class forum about the effects of the last patch is having no effect whatsoever on this.

Of course most of this doesn't really affect the OP's situation, because high end raiding groups are the most likely kind of people to both read the forums and try to stay ahead of the changing winds of class balance. It still doesn't make it right that they won't let him heal, but it makes it more understandable. If we ever hear about an RK getting turned down for a Draigoch run or foundry run because of the #### on this forum, that's when we'll know people are really being idiots.

How are you dealing with it?

I think I would confront my raid leader and let them know that I am unhappy and that I am specifically built to heal because it's what I enjoy doing. A good raid leader will offer some sort of compromise and hopefully it would be to include you in on their healer rotation - as long as you can prove yourself as a valuable healer!

Originally Posted by HandOfMystra

Over at the Big E, at least in my experience, they don't mind RK healers, whoever fills the niche first I guess.

And that's what I love about our server: Elendilmir is very open to Rune-Keepers who heal!

Now my kinship regularly runs ToO T2 with 1 Rune-Keeper healer (me), 1 Minstrel, and 2 Captains. That's our heals and it's taken us through the first four bosses T2 and up to phase 5 of Saruman T2. My kin is used to me being one of the two healers since Watcher/DN and I have over 150 raids healed under my belt (when looking at our DKP site's statistics).. so personally, I don't have the problem you've experienced. My kin expects all of our Rune-Keeper mains to be able to heal in a raid because they will have you do it! However several people in my kinship do prefer Minstrels healing over a Rune-Keeper healing and it has nothing to do with the amount of heals because we are more than fine in that department, it's always about the Rune-Keepers' lack of utility/buffs they bring to the group that would make the fights go a lot faster.

Do you find it a bit disappointing that you're only asked to heal when there aren't minstrels available - assuming you'd rather be healing in the first place?

I have an ego and that would bruise it - so of course!
Come to Elendilmir and find your sanctuary! Hey, can't blame me for trying. ;p


By the way you have a fantastic build! It's quite similar to my own morale/raiding build. I too am curious of what you wear, post it and cure our nosiness!

Thanks for the replies. Just skip to bottom of thread if you just wish to see how I build for healing. I'm just ranting anyway, and it's nice to have folks that can sympathize.

Unfortunately, I have mentioned to my raid leader, several times in the past year, including just before Update 5 hit, that I wanted to be considered a healer first and foremost. Continuing to tell my raid leader that I'd like to heal more than DPS seems to fall on deaf ears, and I don't care to be redundant any longer.
I suspect, at this point, it's a strong bias towards minstrels - whether due to having bad RK healer experience prior to me joining the kin or another reason. In my year of being in this kin (and the countless OD, Draigoch, and now ToO raids we've completed), I've main healed (i.e. one of two healers) exactly 6 raids - all of which was only when a second minstrel wasn't available. Admittedly, I'm rusty - not healing difficult raids for months at a time will do that to anyone I suppose. Healing two wings of ToO a few weeks ago now made me realize just how much I've missed healing difficult raids again. Up until now, I just heal PUG skirm raids, 3 mans, and 6 mans - none of which is challenging.
Why I've stayed in my present kin for as long as I have is beyond me! I think I stay because they continue to raid consistently, which is the most important thing for me.. venturing into the unknown with too many unkown variables is scary!
To those that have raid ready alts - I have a few well-geared/developed alts as well, but there isn't a need for them as we're covered in those classes, and I prefer my RK anyway.
Regarding the server I'm on - it's a small server comparatively. That may very well be the problem. There's not a lot going on, and not very many active raid groups either. I would most certainly have to transfer servers if I left the kin I'm in.

As far as my healing build, here's what I have equipped (sorry, I don't have a link to my character):

Armour:5 of the new healing set + fire chest (for finesse); Draigoch cloak
Earrings:Glimmering Stone Earring (Theodred's Riders rep), Harthadloch (earring - locks 1-3 of Too t2)
Necklace:Iulin (necklace from Dargknakh - I wear this during raids for the extra + tactical mitigation to make sure I'm capped or very near cap; otherwise I wear the Ancient Jade & Sapphire necklace)
Bracelets:Crafted vibrant bracelet of theodred; Alechor (ToO t1)
Rings: Band of the codex archivist (Icy Crevasse or Attack at Dawn skirm raid); Rhudauran's Plague Doctor's ring (Hele Drake wing)
Pocket: Navigation map
All of that amounts to 5200 crit rating (with the crit chisel) 1910 will, 48.2% outgoing, 7950 morale. I was lucky enough to garner a 75 3A RK healing stone with 267 morale + 28 will on it + tactical mitigation (bonanza!! I don't think I'll ever give it up!), otherwise I'd only be at 7650 morale or so. I could sacrifice some will to up my morale by another 300-500, but I haven't found a need to get higher than what I already am.
There is diminshing returns to outgoing healing, as Meraithe mentioned in previous threads; I could probably lose a few % of outgoing healing to up my morale or finesse without much sacrifice to overall healing.
Thanks for reading. Looks like I'll be needing to make a decision very soon, before I miss my opportunity to heal ToO entirely (because I'm sure it'll be obsolete by the time a new raid comes out).

I am a RK who made a RK specifically to heal. My raid leader never lets me main heal anything but 3/6 mans and the occasional raid skirmish. *sigh* Evidently my lack of any type of buffs or in-combat rezzes makes me a bad healer choice.