Discussion: The Two Blue Wizards

I know who they where and vaguely where they went....my question is why? I find it interesting that Tolkien gives us their name, their qualities and their misson but nothing else. Do you suppose he had meant to write more about them? And what about Radagast? We see a bit more of him but still, in my mind, not enough to justify the amount of time creating these characters. Maybe I'm just a tad bit OCD but if I had gone through the trouble to make such powerful and important characters I would want to tell their story. What do you think?

Tolkien was clearly insane. That's my only guess as to why he'd create them and then do nothing with them.

Well, I always wondered the same about them, wishing there was more with them, but perhaps Tolkien's lack of story for them allows us to make one for them, perhaps it leaves an opening for a RP character in game

Envoyé par brianvencill

Tolkien was clearly insane. That's my only guess as to why he'd create them and then do nothing with them.

Let's see...

Giant talking eagles, walking trees, shape shifting bear people, oh and an immensely powerful being who just wants to prance around and pick flowers all day? And that's just for starters...

It's true Tolkien might be insane. But he's my kind of insane!

Personally, I think the Blue Wizards are just some of the many characters Tolkien just never found the time to flesh out fully...

tolkien is known for creating characters who dont quite fit- bombadil, radagast...so its no surprise he made characters who dont have any background

saying that think of the implications of not writing alot about the 3 other wizards.....so the main powers of middle earth-you have gandalf- the good, then you have sauron- the evil, and then you have saruman- who is the changing character between the two

so if we had 3 extra wizards- that we can only assume were good, then the power balance would shift inevitably

it would mean tolkien would have to change the story dramatically. tolkiens beauty was in his moderation -
he was the master of making our imaginations exploded with only the littlest description (which is sadly hard to find in modern fantasy in my opinion)
i think it would be far less effective if we had many many magical peoples (and i dont mean elvish or dwarven magic)
it makes gandalf and co much more interesting

Didn't Tolkien imply that the blue Wizards might have been corrupted, forming cults of sorts in the far east?

Envoyé par KrisDW

Didn't Tolkien imply that the blue Wizards might have been corrupted, forming cults of sorts in the far east?

im sure he said something along the lines of not even he knew, and that they probably wandered from their task and may have formed cults

I understand that in earlier letters, it is hinted that the Blue Wizards were corrupted. In later sources, it is suggested instead that their effort on causing uprisings in the far east was crucial on tying up Sauron's forces. Which version should be considered as true? We don't know. If telling a story, that would be up to the storyteller. In an RP campaign, deciding would be up to the game master. As for Tolkien-scholars, if wanting to reconstruct the mythos, one would need to lock a (real world) date as an anchor and construct the mythos as it was (or, use the newest source, but then some parts of the LotR or at least appendices might need to be retconned).

Envoyé par Mithfindel

I understand that in earlier letters, it is hinted that the Blue Wizards were corrupted. In later sources, it is suggested instead that their effort on causing uprisings in the far east was crucial on tying up Sauron's forces. Which version should be considered as true? We don't know. If telling a story, that would be up to the storyteller. In an RP campaign, deciding would be up to the game master. As for Tolkien-scholars, if wanting to reconstruct the mythos, one would need to lock a (real world) date as an anchor and construct the mythos as it was (or, use the newest source, but then some parts of the LotR or at least appendices might need to be retconned).

agreed, tolkien liked to change his mind on these things!

Envoyé par Ironcrown

I know who they where and vaguely where they went....my question is why? I find it interesting that Tolkien gives us their name, their qualities and their misson but nothing else. Do you suppose he had meant to write more about them? And what about Radagast? We see a bit more of him but still, in my mind, not enough to justify the amount of time creating these characters. Maybe I'm just a tad bit OCD but if I had gone through the trouble to make such powerful and important characters I would want to tell their story. What do you think?

I believe if Tolkien would finish the Silmarillion himself there would be clearer vision of them, as well as many other things. Now, Silmarillion is a piece finished by his son and thus many things can seem unfinished or unclear as Christopher didnt want to add his own ideas.

Personally Blue Wizards just interest me a lot, because this just makes them more mysterious

I believe I read somewhere (probably some of Tolkien's letters) that the latest version was where the Blue Wizards were actually successful, or otherwise Sauron's strength would have been much bigger, fuelled by armies from the far east. But I guess we will never know - after all, a little bit of mystery makes it only more interesting

"(...) and they had no name, except Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards), because they went to the East with Lurunír, and never came back; (...)" (Unfinished Tales, free translation)

As not even google can find this guy, is Lurunír a character or is this just a typo? (then it should be "Curunír", tho I don't know what East the text refers to)

Envoyé par Chiolas

"(...) and they had no name, except Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards), because they went to the East with Lurunír, and never came back; (...)" (Unfinished Tales, free translation)

As not even google can find this guy, is Lurunír a character or is this just a typo? (then it should be "Curunír", tho I don't know what East the text refers to)

It was Curunír. As for the East - it's not really specified although I assume it's somewhere beyond the Iron Hills and Mordor.

Saruman went beyond Middle-Earth?

Envoyé par Chiolas

Saruman went beyond Middle-Earth?

Technically they all did as they originally came from Valinor. In this case he went somewhere East for a while and then returned. Tolkien never really explained why or what he may have learned from the trip. (This is all from Unfinished Tales so not quite canon but I see nothing in this that contradicts anything in LOTR.)

It could be true that he was conflicted over the story of the Blue Wizards (similar to the conflicting events in the story of Galadriel and Celeborn) and he never had time to put it down on paper. Either way, I prefer the version of the story that they fail. It makes Gandalf's success with the great line of the Kings of Man even more significant imo.

Or maybe split the difference? One worked among the peoples of the east, enlightening them to the truth and undercutting Sauron's influence, but the other fell and began his own cults and religions and rises to power and fought against the first.

At any rate, that was an extremely difficult job for anyone, as they were in the heart of a territory long held by Sauron and Morgoth with no intervention from the Valar at all before this that we know of.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...O/kwarrior.png
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28.../ksorceror.png

the second image is from the bullroarer server in the new zone...the brown lands to be precise and it maybe shows that the wizards did infact set up cults

SPOILER-ALERT (highlight to read):

Envoyé par Aegaldan

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/imarichan/LOTRO/kwarrior.png
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/imarichan/LOTRO/ksorceror.png

the second image is from the bullroarer server in the new zone...the brown lands to be precise and it maybe shows that the wizards did infact set up cults

Indeed so. The guy in the second image is also named, as I recall, "Sorcerer of the Blue caste", or something like that, setting him apart from the regular easterlings of the region who are named (I think) "Khundolar Warrior", "Khundolar Archer", and so on. I think those are indeed references to the Blue Wizards, and while it doesn't say anything about Tolkien's final vision of the Blue Wizard's fate, it shows that in Turbine's Middle-Earth, at least, the Blue Wizards failed (I like BBSoonerOU's reasoning that their failure makes Gandalf's victory even more significant).

"Khundolar Warrior", "Khundolar Archer"

The area east in referred to as Khand methinks.....related?

It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that Turbine worked the Blue Wizards into the story of the Rift of Nurz Ghashu. If I remember right, Glathlirel (the elf who guards Thaurlach) describes how the BW's helped her to imprison the balrog when they were passing through Angmar at some point.

To the best of my knowledge, here is what is known about the Blue Wizards from lore:
1. Their names in Valinorin are Alatar and Pallando
2. Their names in Quenya are Romestamo and Morhinatar. Which is which is not known.
3. Alatar was the more powerful of the two.
4. They came over from Valinor some time before Gandalf.
5. They went east beyond Mordor with Saruman, but did not return with him.
6. In Valinor, they were servants of Ulmo.
7. Some versions of Tolkien's notes imply that they fell in much the same manner that Saruman did. Some versions imply that they somehow mobilized a force on Mordor's eastern boarder.

I prefer to think that Saruman coming back from the east without them was the beginning of Saruman's fall. After all, he never mentions to anyone else what happened to Alatar and Pallando. Clearly, something happened. Whether this means that the Blue Wizards fell first and put the idea in Saruman's head or whether Saruman himself was responsible for them not making it back is something I could never decide. As for what happened to the Blue Wizards, I like to think that it was some delicious combination of Tolkien's notes.

Envoyé par Berzerker_prime

To the best of my knowledge, here is what is known about the Blue Wizards from lore:
1. Their names in Valinorin are Alatar and Pallando
2. Their names in Quenya are Romestamo and Morhinatar. Which is which is not known.
3. Alatar was the more powerful of the two.
4. They came over from Valinor some time before Gandalf.
5. They went east beyond Mordor with Saruman, but did not return with him.
6. In Valinor, they were servants of Ulmo.
7. Some versions of Tolkien's notes imply that they fell in much the same manner that Saruman did. Some versions imply that they somehow mobilized a force on Mordor's eastern boarder.

I prefer to think that Saruman coming back from the east without them was the beginning of Saruman's fall. After all, he never mentions to anyone else what happened to Alatar and Pallando. Clearly, something happened. Whether this means that the Blue Wizards fell first and put the idea in Saruman's head or whether Saruman himself was responsible for them not making it back is something I could never decide. As for what happened to the Blue Wizards, I like to think that it was some delicious combination of Tolkien's notes.

OOOOHHH...I like that...maybe one falls under Sauron's influence and the other battles it out to prevent Sauron's dominion from spreading...nice.

The other wizards have always interested me a lot too. I hope some time Christopher finds some more notes on them while sifting through them all.

Radaghast is interesting to me because he is almost the opposite of Saruman in his "fall". Instead of falling to evil, he is waylaid by his love of nature and creatures and becomes rather like Tom Bombadil in his lack of care for the war itself and being completely absorbed in nature. Which is worse for him because he was sent there to help win the war. It was nice that he was part of the epic quest though, pretty cool to see a visual representation of him even if Im not sure he would get that involved.

Envoyé par tkdyoo

pretty cool to see a visual representation of him even if Im not sure he would get that involved

he just couldn't sit by and let the squirrels and the bunnies suffer like that

I find it very interesting that the Easterlings have Blue Coated Wizards...

Wizards didn't seem to interact with each other too often other than to compare notes of their findings at the White Council meetings and the random run-in on the road. Three Wizards traveling together to the East seems very unusual to me, and must have had some importance. This leads me to believe that the Blue Wizards were tight with Saruman, and had the same ideas on how to deal with Sauron (lead a force to overthrow him). The BW and Saruman were at odds with Rhadaghast who wanted to preserve nature, and Gandalf who wanted to inspire hope within the Free People. Assuming this, we can probably guess their motives based on Saruman initial plan.

My theory is that they follow Saruman's initial plan but didn't fall into evil. They never made direct contact with Sauron via a Palantir, so they are more pure in their purpose. They create whatever forces that they can muster and directly confront Sauron. These armies might have been smaller, guerilla warfare types that would be considered cultish to the mainstream Easterlings. Heck, they could have been in command of the whole Easterling army and were ready to turn on Sauron when Saruman gave the word (and if Saruman expected to still have the Rohirrim in his control that would be a pretty large army combined) In a sense, both of Tolkien's statements would be true about them...that they failed their mission by giving into their own egos/pride, but at the same time they created significant problems for Sauron that weakened his forces.

But since there are two of them, this creates a lot of cool possibilities for Turbine. One could have been turned by Sauron, and another pure. Or both could be evil, giving us two huge bosses to take down post-Mordor. They could be Sauron's lieutenants, or a force in and of themselves, waiting for the war to be over to sweep in and take what is left. This could be the "bad guys" that we face down after Sauron is defeated. One thing for sure, all of these unresolved mysteries of Middle-Earth can provide us with a ton of content after Mordor!

Tolkien worked on his writings his whole life, even just before dying. He never was able to finish his complete vision of the world. However, his son tends to consider the later versions the more canonical versions of his mythology. Here is what I found about the fate of the two Blue Wizards and think to be the choice Tolkien would have gone with considering its date:

However, some of this changes in a text written in the last year or two of Tolkien's life (published in The Peoples of Middle-earth) of 1968. They are said to have arrived not in the Third Age, but in the Second, around the year 1600, the time of the Forging of the One Ring. Their mission was to travel to the east and weaken the forces of Sauron. And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages. At the same time, Tolkien considered the possibility that Glorfindel arrived back in Middle-earth along with the Blue Wizards. On this later, more positive interpretation, the Blue Wizards may have been as successful as Gandalf, just located in a different theatre beyond the borders of the map in The Lord of the Rings.[6]

I read the same text from Christopher. but I slightly disagree that they where as succesfull as Gandalf. Gandalf actions where the reason Frodo went to Mount Doom, and succeeded in destroying the ring and therefore destroying Sauron.

Tolkien indeed never finished his world. Still the amount of detail in creating it is magnificent. I truly believe that it would be impossible to do more in a lifetime. Beside that I like it that there are a few gaps in the story we will never know. It makes middle earth a little bit mysterious.

Envoyé par Rumiano

Tolkien indeed never finished his world.

I don't think he ever intended to "finish" his world. If you read Leaf by Niggle, I think it gives a glimpse into how Tolkien perceived his work.

The depth and detail of western middle-earth is incredible already - I can't imagine what interesting things Tolkien would have done with the far east and south beyond Rhun and Harad had he had the time. There are vague bases and skeletons of those places, such as Harad being much like Africa and Rhun similar to Middle-Eastern or possibly Hunnic tribes (nothing about Variags, though they are assumed to be cousins of easterlings), which means he probably intended to get back on those later.

I'm sure Turbine could make new content beyond the War of the Ring by expanding into the rest of Arda and these places, assuming the game is still profitable and stays online by then (I hope it does )