To anyone with an unclear perspective as to how messed up things are (or aren't), I give this advice freely. Make a few freeps and creeps and spend some time on both sides.
As for Danuf's saying the WL bubble is overpowered, I disagree. In the hands of freeps it would be, what with their insane ability to heal and dps as it is. The WL bubble may well be one of the few advantages Creeps have in a rvr fight, and it's quite insignificant under those circumstances anyways. When there are 23 other targets to choose from, the bubble isn't going to do much. It's 15 seconds of 10% damage taken, with a 2 minute cooldown. Shield Wall is a full absorption, is a toggled skill (Can be kept up indefinitely), and has a 20 second cooldown if it does get interrupted.
Shield wall doesn't ignore damage, though, it sends it back to the guardian. The guardian that is fully well capable of having 20k+ health in a raid environment and does not require line of sight to keep shield wall up once it's been bestowed. At a 25 meter range, a guardian plus a healer can keep one person completely immune to damage for an indefinite period of time unless there's some extreme focus fire going on, assuming SW isn't interrupted.
While the WL bubble is a more direct skill for saving someone, at best it's not any more overpowered than shield wall is.
Now, Danuf, I don't mean any disrespect, but you seem to be in dire need of some perspective.
Don't forget about Captain bubbles which is -75% incoming damage for 15 seconds, 3 minute cool down. Be glad that most cappies don't trait that in the moors like War leaders. I think I'm one of the few who slot it.
Also in harms way which absorbs most of the fellowships damage. War leader bubbles are one of the few advantages that creep side has to defend against the freep dps.
I have a high ranked warleader, think he is r12 or 13, it's been a few months, on brandywine. I know how things work.
I would take the WL bubble over SW anyday.
Creeps just have to learn to play, spiders drop their webs, WL's and defilers kite freep melee through the webs and they get picked off. Works wonders if you do it properly, never see it happen on landy.
I've played both sides plenty, I know what works for either side, I know you can't beat a freep raid with a warg pack, nor can you with a small group of 6. it all comes down to numbers, and having good leaders that people will follow.
And I'll say it again, freeps are not OP, creeps can easily waltz right over a freep raid if they know what they are doing, if they follow directions, follow target assists and play their class properly.. warleaders healing and bubbling defilers OOC rezzing and healing, and everyoen else going after healers... you would be surprised what you can accomplish.
edit: And before someone starts crying, a R0 creep will never be able to solo your average freep. Conservatively, you need to be about R9-10 to solo the 'average' freep. Which is entirely fair, a freep will spend several months leveling up and gearing up, you cannot expect to just roll a new character and be able to beat them.
A lot of the creeps on this server are low ranked... but you have a few, rabidskum, sexysadie etc etc who buy their skills, but aside from that, skills are skills, you still need the promotions and other rank-requiring skills to make you an effective fighter.
If a full raid of smart creeps lead by a good raid leader went up against a full raid of average freeps with a decent leader, it would be a slaughter. The freeps would be massacred. On the other hand, if a full raid of Freeps filled with smart players and lead by a good leader took on the same group of Creeps, it would still be a slaughter. Creeps would be rolled each and every times, with or without the freeps using cooldowns. Freep classes have more potential than creep classes do, period.
Also, I'd like to see this WL of yours. Would you mind letting us see him through your forum account, please?
Whelp, I should admit that a lot of my arguments depend on the various ranks of said creeps. Your 'average' creep should be around rank 8 or 9, ish, and you should have a mix. You should not have more than 2 wargs in a raid, etc etc etc.
You can argue this till the cows come home, really, though the reality is it is a pretty even playing field when you look at it. A bunch of level 40's couldn't kill 1 reaver, for example. Like I've said before, I guarantee if the creeps started running more raids they would figure out how to beat freeps, it's not hard. Though the past few weeks i've dabbled creep side I have only seen a handful of raids..... and you can argue all you want about spies, i've only specifically heard of one instance, and it was some 13 year old creep who was trying to tell us what the freeps were doing.
edit: And no, I am not saying who my creeps are.. besides the obvious defiler, there are 100x more trolls on creepside than there are freepside, and most of the freepside trolls are actually creeps.
Well I've seen you lead a few fairly successful raids on freepside, soooo...... Would you dare take the challenge of leading a creep raid against Vin granted we supplied you with only r7-8-9+ creeps and see how you fair?
Well I've seen you lead a few fairly successful raids on freepside, soooo...... Would you dare take the challenge of leading a creep raid against Vin granted we supplied you with only r7-8-9+ creeps and see how you fair?
Ironically, I have tried, several times, to lead a creep raid, and have gotten next to 0 response. I recall one evening, a few weeks ago, where there were 20 creeps on... 15 of which were wargs.
If I had enough creeps who wanted to listen, I could wipe the floor with any freep raid, it's not very hard.
Ironically, I have tried, several times, to lead a creep raid, and have gotten next to 0 response. I recall one evening, a few weeks ago, where there were 20 creeps on... 15 of which were wargs.
If I had enough creeps who wanted to listen, I could wipe the floor with any freep raid, it's not very hard.
Tell you what...next time you are on and I am leading a raid, you can take over, and we'll see what you got...
Tell you what...next time you are on and I am leading a raid, you can take over, and we'll see what you got...
I don't mind, there are very few leaders freepside as well. The problem is getting people to join the raid, and join the raid with useful classes. I don't like more than a few wargs, for example. They are great scouts but as far as healing, dps and rezzing, I would rather have other classes.
edit: Set any date you want, judging by the attitude of most creeps, I doubt they would be interested in grouping up with some smelly freep.
I will bring it up in creep OOC in the next few days to see if anyone would be in on this challenge I have given you. But you must remember Vinns raid can have no less than 5 minstrels which is the norm as of late.
P.S. I am a smelly freep. Tacky-r10 Mini>r9 Reaver.
Last edited by TackyFailz; Feb 17 2012 at 01:44 AM.
I will bring it up in creep OOC in the next few days to see if anyone would be in on this challenge I have given you. But you must remember Vinns raid can have no less than 5 minstrels which is the norm as of late.
Mmm, that depends on numbers, really.
And of those 5, most are prolly in WS anyways.
But like I said, I doubt most creeps would be interested in such a battle, I've tried to lead creep raids but none of my characters have the 'status' that gets people to join them, so.
I have a high ranked warleader, think he is r12 or 13, it's been a few months, on brandywine. I know how things work.
I would take the WL bubble over SW anyday.
Creeps just have to learn to play, spiders drop their webs, WL's and defilers kite freep melee through the webs and they get picked off. Works wonders if you do it properly, never see it happen on landy.
I've played both sides plenty, I know what works for either side, I know you can't beat a freep raid with a warg pack, nor can you with a small group of 6. it all comes down to numbers, and having good leaders that people will follow.
And I'll say it again, freeps are not OP, creeps can easily waltz right over a freep raid if they know what they are doing, if they follow directions, follow target assists and play their class properly.. warleaders healing and bubbling defilers OOC rezzing and healing, and everyoen else going after healers... you would be surprised what you can accomplish.
edit: And before someone starts crying, a R0 creep will never be able to solo your average freep. Conservatively, you need to be about R9-10 to solo the 'average' freep. Which is entirely fair, a freep will spend several months leveling up and gearing up, you cannot expect to just roll a new character and be able to beat them.
A lot of the creeps on this server are low ranked... but you have a few, rabidskum, sexysadie etc etc who buy their skills, but aside from that, skills are skills, you still need the promotions and other rank-requiring skills to make you an effective fighter.
After the last update, I feel my BA has gotten their decent mitigations back. so since most freeps are not killing me in 4 shots anymore, most of them don't feel OP anymore. This brings me to your argument, how do you plan on proving that freeps were not OP before when they were doing a lot of damage, after the game already had some changes? the outcome of your test won't be accurate to what people were complaining before the update.
Note: not sure if other creep classes got any improvements after the patch, but at least that's what I experience on my BA.
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
All (considerable) trolling aside, Danuf, I can assure you that if Tacky, Superstardestroyer, and I all joined your raid we would do our best to win. That said, if you want to really legitimately do this, you need a creep at the ranks you pointed out on this server.
I have a high ranked warleader, think he is r12 or 13, it's been a few months, on brandywine. I know how things work.
Unless you have the highest ranking creep on Brandywine, which you don't (it's the only anonymous 12+ WL on the leaderboard and it's a sliver from 14, which you would definitely be aware of if it was yours), you are being less than honest.
As for creeps needing to get skill? Yes, any skilled, balanced raid on either side will have some success against an unskilled, unorganized group on the opposing side. Currently, though, any potpourri of low to average skilled freeps in a raid can smash their faces against the keyboard and kill an average CRaid.
I have a high ranked warleader, think he is r12 or 13, it's been a few months, on brandywine. I know how things work.
It's painfully obvious that you're making this up. If you really did have a creep this high of a rank, *especially* a warleader, you might better understand how much harder it is to play creepside than freepside.
I have to be honest; with this title, I was expecting the thread to be far more entertaining. It really needs more lintensity.
Truth is, skill to a high degree isn't needed in the game anymore, and never was at a very high premium. Anything tangible that you can achieve in PvP with skill is rather easily achieved in other ways. It's a game mechanics meets population issue.
Upon reading through part of the thread, the argument has been presented that if players try (read: challenge) themselves they will fail, but if they keep challenging themselves they will get better. Absolutely true. However, there is very little incentive in this game to actually do that. If I can just roll out night after night, join other people and let them do the hard work (formulate tactics, tell me what to do) I can make just as much if not more glory and never have to do anything more difficult than follow a target assist or make health bars go up.
It takes personal drive to be better or to want to be better at soloing, small grouping or raiding. If you don't have it, guess what, you can still get all of the pvp goodies you want. It's a casual pvp game and suits people with casual drives. Nothing wrong with that. Before this update came out, and while I was still playing with any regularity, I expressed displeasure with the 'skill ceiling' dropping. It had begun to matter less and less how skilled you are or how much effort you put into playing your character well in various situations. In the end, it was less efficient to do that in terms of effort versus reward.
Oh there's no problem with high ranked Freeps playing creepside, nor vice versa - I hope. There's a lot of peeps on both sides that I have a lot of time and admiration for.
There is currently however, a rather large problem with certain Freeps logging Creepside to suppurate into OOC. Really big of them, and I am suitably impressed and terrified of them.
I would retort with something witty - but my current level of Uberfail prevents me from doing so. And if my extreme failure is due to me offering combat on sight to any and everyone, I will forever fail, or die trying
Love & Hugs
Fluffy Hithy
If I had a penny for every child I ran over - I could maybe afford car insurance
I have a high ranked warleader, think he is r12 or 13, it's been a few months, on brandywine. I know how things work.
I know the two and unless one is lying about playing on landy freepside you are not them. The only other one juicyfruit, just turned rank 12 when I left the game 3 weeks ago if I remember correctly.
Originally Posted by Tumgruk
I would take the WL bubble over SW anyday.
I would take champ bubbles, Last stand, IHW, rk bubbles, mini bubbles, SW any day over a WL bubble. How about you trade ALL of them for WL bubble and the creeps can cal lit even.
Originally Posted by Tumgruk
Creeps just have to learn to play, spiders drop their webs, WL's and defilers kite freep melee through the webs and they get picked off. Works wonders if you do it properly, never see it happen on landy.
There are way better people than you out there freepside and creepside. Many have been around longer as well. Spider web is mostly worthless since many melees that run forward can pop a store potion or most classes that go INTO melee can just run back out without any fear of the web slow due to skills they already have. I haven't even played in awhile yet still know more about them than you.
[QUOTE=Tumgruk;5992380]
And I'll say it again, freeps are not OP, creeps can easily waltz right over a freep raid if they know what they are doing, if they follow directions, follow target assists and play their class properly..
This can happen if the freeps completely suck and their leader sucks. I have run half freep raids that have annihilated full creep raids in the past even during the 'creep glory days'. However, I will grant if the freep leader sucks big bunches of k-mart blue light special balls creeps can stand a chance with a great leader. However, there aren't many high rank creeps out there now so your case is mute. There has never been a time where creeps had a full raid of rank 9's and such. Not even WTH had all members that high.
I, also, said I would get you a full creep raid when this whole thing began and I called you on this kind of trash about equality. I will come back for one night (Chris will let me), I will make the raid for you, hand it over and let you lead. That way there is no excuse for you not having a full raid.
If there is no real freep leader when we do this, once your raid is up and going I will jump on one of my freeps and gladly come kick your butt all over the moors.
Tacky, just let me know a day and we will make this happen for Danuf.
ps Danuf, I would be surprised if your creep was even R8, let alone R12 or higher. You don't have the skin to play creepside because it's challenging, and requires the player to not be a backpeddaling, keyboard turning, clicker to play well *hugs*
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
ps Danuf, I would be surprised if your creep was even R8, let alone R12 or higher. You don't have the skin to play creepside because it's challenging, and requires the player to not be a backpeddaling, keyboard turning, clicker to play well *hugs*
ps Danuf, I would be surprised if your creep was even R8, let alone R12 or higher. You don't have the skin to play creepside because it's challenging, and requires the player to not be a backpeddaling, keyboard turning, clicker to play well *hugs*
ps Danuf, I would be surprised if your creep was even R8, let alone R12 or higher. You don't have the skin to play creepside because it's challenging, and requires the player to not be a backpeddaling, keyboard turning, clicker to play well *hugs*
Ernest Hemingway once said he least favorite word in the English language was "pride." I agree, and would add "Skill" to it.
Also, Danuf is always trash talking creeps and it gets REALLY old. Its this simple: Put people (humans) in the same environment and they will do the same thing. Given the same circumstances, you get the same outcome - with a wide spectrum of reactions. If people see freeps outside TA, they're obviously going to stay near where they aren't going to be killed. I wouldn't ask them to do any different. As freeps, we have the power to run in and kill them. So do so. And stop complaining about them hiding in there (as an example). To say creeps are "op" is just kinda silly. I can kill a young warg with one swift bow and a blood arrow.
All this I know, and can share this infinite wisdom with you, because I have a rank 37 creep on the European servers. They have ranks above 15 there, because, you know, its like, europe. I have 42,213,731 reknown.
Also, lol @ "wanting to be the best!" That, is frankly, ridiculous. If you live your LOTRO life like Rocky, well, I guess that's your call. Your plan is flawed if your plot to save the moors is by everyone saying "I wanna be the best." In my book, PvP used to be better here because it had a collective conscious. Not just a "I am the greatest player in the world" mentality. Is it really that hard to see that everyone trying to be the best creates hostility, elitism, snobbery and disrespect?
I suppose the creation of false problems (dishonor in the moors) that we need to "fix" (by being PvP Sylvester Stallones) is a symptom of Turbine not having thrown us a bone in like half a decade. All natural I suppose.
-edited for efficiency
Last edited by Stanimir; Feb 18 2012 at 10:43 PM.
Bid them achieve me and then sell my bones.
-Henry V
Poster of Note Online status:
Reputation:
Originally Posted by Tumgruk
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Jaykay
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
Grand Member Online status:
"I've brushed with death so often, I should start giving him high-fives when I pass..."
Senior Member Online status:
Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
Poster of Note Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
