Thread: Do Hunters really need buffed?

Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend

second of all, wargs kill hunters even faster than hunters kill you in the moors. so to be fair, since you're calling for hunter nerfs, your next post better be asking for warg nerfs or we'll just count you as another QQ creep.

I laughed at this. I can kill any creep with the exception of a high ranking wl or BA depending on my crits or not before they kill me. Our highest ranked reavers I can even kill not slow kiting before they kill me, most the time its a double KB but hunters can dish out alot of dps when needed. Even if a warg gets the jump on me, I can kill it in a swift bow and 2 penshots. I go in full agi 6k morale 32% mits and do fine in 1v1s. I like the fact of dps race but in u6 wargs and spiders will be OP so :/ anyways

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Correct me if Im wrong but I hear that Hunters are currently dissatisfied ?
Your ranged damage is unreal..2-3K crits can easily be spammed
And your melee damage (+ daze) is on par with (current) Wargs (this may change after U6)
Arindhias scored a devastating hit with Improved Dazing Blow on Purebloodnakh for 934 Westernesse damage to Morale.
How do you justify wanting more buffs?
Help me understand

I'm glad to see PBW's troll posts work just as well on other class forums as they do on the champ's

*sigh* some people aren't getting the point still... should I write in caps? Oh wait, the troll will just accuse me of trolling then. Okay.

A hunter can deal out serious dps, yes, but you're ignoring the fact that unless a hunter is ALWAYS burning hot, imp fleetness is up, camo still up, imp focus... you're not gonna get two shotted, no matter how much you whine. You close that gap with a hunter who's not prepared to mouse turn, and if you have 5k morale left (assuming hunter's 4 PSs hit you for 2k each, still kinda pushing the hunter's luck, but...) if you have any skill as a creep, that 6k morale on the hunter is gonna go down fast.

Most of these anti-hunter posts are focusing on the numbers a hunter can get with all his CDs up. Half the time that's not the case. A good warg jumps a good hunter who's riding his horse w/o focus... I would say 80% of the time the warg wins within seconds, not popping a single CD. Especially so if the hunter's full dps traited, as again most of these posts are focusing on.

Stop picking out 10% of the fights you get in the moors and crying about them. Enjoy the other 90%, and let us at least have the scraps. Maybe our dev will get a clue eventually

If you are getting one shotted by hunters...tough s***. If you suprise most hunters and spam eyerake and other skills, they might not be able to get an induction off. You also get a 4 second warning with a HUGE crossed X when a hunter is using heartseeker. If that is not enough time to run like hell, idk what is. I got hit by a warg with maul for ~1k damage, that is 1/6 my health for a 3second cooldown. Use hips or sprint like everyother warg when you are running away. Wargs can easily beat hunters 1v1 most of the time but if a hunter surprises you, use your skills, they are there for a reason. (please dont whine about a 5 and 10min cd)

Originally Posted by Bond007

*sigh* some people aren't getting the point still...

A hunter can deal out serious dps, yes, but you're ignoring the fact that unless a hunter is ALWAYS burning hot, imp fleetness is up, camo still up, imp focus... you're not gonna get two shotted, no matter how much you whine. You close that gap with a hunter who's not prepared to mouse turn, and if you have 5k morale left (assuming hunter's 4 PSs hit you for 2k each, still kinda pushing the hunter's luck, but...) if you have any skill as a creep, that 6k morale on the hunter is gonna go down fast.

Most of these anti-hunter posts are focusing on the numbers a hunter can get with all his CDs up. Half the time that's not the case. A good warg jumps a good hunter who's riding his horse w/o focus... I would say 80% of the time the warg wins within seconds, not popping a single CD. Especially so if the hunter's full dps traited, as again most of these posts are focusing on.

Stop picking out 10% of the fights you get in the moors and crying about them. Enjoy the other 90%, and let us at least have the scraps. Maybe our dev will get a clue eventually

If solo survivability is your goal...why not run with 9k build instead of 6k. Uncapping of stats makes you make choices on your build to suit your playstyle. Build a glass cannon nuker...and well you should be glass...you blow stuff up you get the drop on, and have a challenge versus a creep that gets the drop on you....seems kinda balanced there.

RE: Survival/utility skills - you have a lot at your disposal (slows, stuns, mez, traps, root, heal, fear, fleet stance, snare removal, camo, tracking....etc) ...perhaps that is the problem though for joe-cant-mouse-turn-average.....get rid of all the above - too much thinking/prep and just add a 1 button "TnG/Pledge/Bubble".

Originally Posted by chrisCML

If solo survivability is your goal...why not run with 9k build instead of 6k. Uncapping of stats makes you make choices on your build to suit your playstyle. Build a glass cannon nuker...and well you should be glass...you blow stuff up you get the drop on, and have a challenge versus a creep that gets the drop on you....seems kinda balanced there.

RE: Survival/utility skills - you have a lot at your disposal (slows, stuns, mez, traps, root, heal, fear, fleet stance, snare removal, camo, tracking....etc) ...perhaps that is the problem though for joe-cant-mouse-turn-average.....get rid of all the above - too much thinking/prep and just add a 1 button "TnG/Pledge/Bubble".

sounds like you're in favor of having Hunters just raid up and not run around 1v1 .. that way we don't have to worry about "solo survivability" and having at least a shot at giving you a good fight ... /nod ok ..

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

sounds like you're in favor of having Hunters just raid up and not run around 1v1 .. that way we don't have to worry about "solo survivability" and having at least a shot at giving you a good fight ... /nod ok ..

Nope.

I'm saying if you are having trouble doing this.....

Originally Posted by Muzgakbash

I laughed at this. I can kill any creep with the exception of a high ranking wl or BA depending on my crits or not before they kill me. Our highest ranked reavers I can even kill not slow kiting before they kill me, most the time its a double KB but hunters can dish out alot of dps when needed. Even if a warg gets the jump on me, I can kill it in a swift bow and 2 penshots. I go in full agi 6k morale 32% mits and do fine in 1v1s. I like the fact of dps race but in u6 wargs and spiders will be OP so :/ anyways

...try going with a more survivable build and using some of the many tools hunters have. I'm suggesting if you want to have better survivability then perhaps your current 5.7k morale build hunter is not the way to go.

Dear trolls, please play our class.

Originally Posted by chrisCML

Nope.

I'm saying if you are having trouble doing this.....



...try going with a more survivable build and using some of the many tools hunters have. I'm suggesting if you want to have better survivability then perhaps your current 5.7k morale build hunter is not the way to go.

would you like me to go through the creep forum and requote all of the creeps who say they like catching solo hunters? That they "have no problem killing.. even the best hunters are easy"? Just so that we have parity in quotes?

A BA can kill hunters as well if the hunter doesn't get their opener (Focus Buff + Burn Hot), however I've literally been 2-shotted by shilow as he popped out of stealth on my rank 9 BA with 12k of health.

Everybody knows to kill hunters first, champs take way too long to kill and don't do near as much damage.

That is outrageous, you sir are outrageous.... I kill hunters WAAAAAYYY before I get a scond cj off. And fyi it's cripple, claw, claw, claw, scratch and snip, claw, claw, claw, claw, claw......

gank nothing but hunters and low rank RKs.

Just did a quick google search for "kill hunters"

Problem, creeper creepies?

Originally Posted by chrisCML

If solo survivability is your goal...why not run with 9k build instead of 6k. Uncapping of stats makes you make choices on your build to suit your playstyle. Build a glass cannon nuker...and well you should be glass...you blow stuff up you get the drop on, and have a challenge versus a creep that gets the drop on you....seems kinda balanced there.

RE: Survival/utility skills - you have a lot at your disposal (slows, stuns, mez, traps, root, heal, fear, fleet stance, snare removal, camo, tracking....etc) ...perhaps that is the problem though for joe-cant-mouse-turn-average.....get rid of all the above - too much thinking/prep and just add a 1 button "TnG/Pledge/Bubble".

1. Sure, I can go run in a 9k build and lose about 10k PM? Then I'll be doing the same damage as what, the average yellow-traited lm? Lol. Plus, higher morale doesn't equal higher armor mitigation, so the numbers will fly just as fast.
2. The fact is, there is no such build as the one you're describing. There is no viable moors build for hunters, and for good reason. Can't have 9kers running around popping off 2.2k hits on the move. I don't want more dps for the hunter. I want more survivability. And please, if you tell me to roll another class... hunters weren't ever supposed to be the "glass cannons" they are now. If I wanted that I would've rolled an rk.
3. This last part I actually laughed at Stun is a 1 min cd. Slow is melee, pottable, and short (dude, just get your own slow off and it's negligible) Fear has to be traited, fleetness has to be traited, heal has to be traited and is useless, as 2 crits take that same amount of health away in less than the 5sec induction. Snare removal? That's that same 9k build I told you lowered our dps significantly enough to cripple our only chance at survival. Oh, it's a 50-50 chance too. Plus you better be r9 in moors and have the full set! Traps can only be used out of combat unless you want to cripple your traits again, so positioning will probably be off. Your enemy's gonna see you do it.


Shoot. That's a whole BOATLOAD of useful skills, right? Wrong.

Today I jumped a BA as he ran by where I was camo'd. My ISB didn't crit even with focus up, and by the time I ran out of focus he had 6k morale and evade up. For the next 15sec he kited around me while all my attacks were evaded. The only thing I could have done better to avoid death would have been to not try to kill a solo BA when I had the advantage and he was unaware. Do you see a problem now?

I already sacrificed Morale for Agility just for more DPS then come to find out that TANKS can't hold aggro against me even in Endurance stance :l...so I lost agility for morale again since I go sick of dying.

to lazy to multi quote-

@Swift - ok you dont't like tradeoffs. You want to keep your DPS (I see 1500 parses in this forum), and have increased survival. Just balance creepside to combat that if needed (including within raid situations with hunters running raid buffs....just seems that raids with heavy hunters would tear up creeps even more if their self survivability went up on top of raid support w/o any DPS sacrifice).

@deaddove - yes hunters are easier to kill then champs (and should be). And yes they are priority targets because if left alone they light creeps up.....and yes as a rank 1 hunter with under 5.6k morale and only 3k tact mit the hunter in your sig would be a juicy target....I dont even think you can buy a stun pot yet

@Smug - yes a BA with MT up is challenging for a hunter. There are many rock/paper/scissors match ups in the moors currently especially with all class CDs up. Maybe hunters need something like steadfast barrage to mitigate MT?

Counter to the direction of this thread, imo there are too many survival cds (talking all classes/sides -not hunters), it makes it hard to create balance - do you include them or exclude them? and this leads to people camping CDs or fights coming down to the 1 skill being available or not (see hunter/BA above) - add this to the ever escalating DPS/crit fest and the moors is turning into a blazing RNG game that often rests on one cd being up or not and 1 or 2 crits - be great if combat was slowed down overall and more skills came into play. People like big numbers though - so the arms race will continue with survival skills added to all classes and creeps morale pools being bloated again i'm sure

As a hunter, our dps is fine. But we lack everything else

for a start I always figured the hunter would be good solo in moors. not even close. and in raid/fellow I could easily live by just useing 6/7 skills and no one would notice the difference.

even my healing minstrel uses more skill. Hunter is just easy mode dps now, and it's kinda depressing.

we need what warden got with stances, would be awesome. we should have 2 contrasing dps routes. and a CC path that works not just pure CC like it is. and swap some traits round too.

I would love to see one dps path buff melee when useing ranged skills and other way round. like the video said we would be like. not have 5 melee skills that feel so bad I would rather spam quick shot sometimes.

but thats just jelouse mowning too at wardens :P

Originally Posted by chrisCML

@Swift - ok you dont't like tradeoffs. You want to keep your DPS (I see 1500 parses in this forum), and have increased survival. Just balance creepside to combat that if needed (including within raid situations with hunters running raid buffs....just seems that raids with heavy hunters would tear up creeps even more if their self survivability went up on top of raid support w/o any DPS sacrifice).
Counter to the direction of this thread, imo there are too many survival cds (talking all classes/sides -not hunters), it makes it hard to create balance - do you include them or exclude them? and this leads to people camping CDs or fights coming down to the 1 skill being available or not (see hunter/BA above) - add this to the ever escalating DPS/crit fest and the moors is turning into a blazing RNG game that often rests on one cd being up or not and 1 or 2 crits - be great if combat was slowed down overall and more skills came into play. People like big numbers though - so the arms race will continue with survival skills added to all classes and creeps morale pools being bloated again i'm sure

This, this I agree with. I think many hunters would be totally okay with slightly nerfed dps (now turbine, please don't bring it down to the floor just bc I said that ) in exchange for one survival skill that does not need to be traited. Unfortunately, I don't think we're gonna see a total game revamp in U6 . I like the direction you're going with the all around dps brought down, but as you said, people like bigger numbers at bigger lvls. I doubt we'll see any meaningful changes soon

Hunters doesnt need any buffs, On range they can kill everyone, In melee they can fend of most wargs. They are easily killed in melee so increase their melee defence and reduce their dps on some ranged skills. If a hunter charges a BA solo he should be prepared to take the consequences when he knows the BA have their MT skill ready.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Today I jumped a BA as he ran by where I was camo'd. My ISB didn't crit even with focus up, and by the time I ran out of focus he had 6k morale and evade up. For the next 15sec he kited around me while all my attacks were evaded. The only thing I could have done better to avoid death would have been to not try to kill a solo BA when I had the advantage and he was unaware. Do you see a problem now?

Yes, you didnt crit.

This is the mentality thats part of the carryover from the PvE (at least it appears to be). It appears You believe you should be able to kill, and if you cant there is a problem. You didnt mention what is starting morale was, did you drop him 7k or so without crits?

Sometimes the uncapping of stats for the pve game dosent work and you dont get the massive critical, had you gotten it the outcome would have likely been different. As it is you dropped probably half his morale and he kited you (smart BA). So whats your solution here? Is your solution that you should have more critical chance, higher morale pool?

What exactly would you want, within the situation above to garner you a kill?

Please be specific because I dont see the problem here. You gambled (it was a good gamble) and you lost out on the crit roll.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Yes, you didnt crit.

This is the mentality thats part of the carryover from the PvE (at least it appears to be). It appears You believe you should be able to kill, and if you cant there is a problem. You didnt mention what is starting morale was, did you drop him 7k or so without crits?

Sometimes the uncapping of stats for the pve game dosent work and you dont get the massive critical, had you gotten it the outcome would have likely been different. As it is you dropped probably half his morale and he kited you (smart BA). So whats your solution here? Is your solution that you should have more critical chance, higher morale pool?

What exactly would you want, within the situation above to garner you a kill?

Please be specific because I dont see the problem here. You gambled (it was a good gamble) and you lost out on the crit roll.

I believe the point is this: In the EXACT situation that is being held up as the reason hunters are fine (ranged attack from stealth with cooldowns available) he managed to get only half the morale down on a creep. To justify the idea that hunters have plenty of survivability, this situation should be IMPOSSIBLE.
Now as it is I think that it is reasonable the hunter did not manage a win (>50% crit/dev chance and no crit 5 shots in a row? RNG blows!) BUT, while it is reasonable, then it is also reasonable to say that a hunter needs more survivability.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

I believe the point is this: In the EXACT situation that is being held up as the reason hunters are fine (ranged attack from stealth with cooldowns available) he managed to get only half the morale down on a creep. To justify the idea that hunters have plenty of survivability, this situation should be IMPOSSIBLE.
Now as it is I think that it is reasonable the hunter did not manage a win (>50% crit/dev chance and no crit 5 shots in a row? RNG blows!) BUT, while it is reasonable, then it is also reasonable to say that a hunter needs more survivability.

If you look back in the thread I am a creep player who advocates hunter survivability. My idea is make “press onward” a true legendary

1. 60% of morale and power scaled to the toon
2. Induction cant be interrupted
3. Half the induction time to 2s
4. 5 minute cool down.
I don’t think you will find a reasonable creep who will deny hunter’s need better survivability but even with the press onward enhancement I have put forth (many times, in other threads as well), the hunter isnt going to win unless he gets a critical. Is that fair? Yes it is given the immense damage a critical can do and the chances you have to get one.

This is a reality of the PvE build, you all have to crit to survive the end game raids or have exceptional healers. Im not a fan of it, because I think you all crit to much but the point is you, he really most freeps on a 1v1 arent going to survive unless you get a few critical hits. He could have just as easily gotten off 3 IPS for 2k each, maybe a 4k splashed in (don’t know his build).

His argument is one made on the creep side all the time about survivability except we don’t get the criticals. Even Ba’s don’t have the % chance to hit them like every freep class does. So, he gambled on the crit chance and lost, im willing to bet this is the exception not the rule. If it were the rule why would he have taken the shot? He expected to win, I have no doubt in my mind of that and I would wager he wasn’t thinking of survivability when he popped from camo to take his roll…..

Observations:

1) Lot of creeps here fearing their favorite source of infamy being cut off.

2) Creeps come to the hunter forums to tell us how OP we are, and very same creeps in creep forums talk about how easy it is to kill hunters.

3) Same creeps all over the forums bemoaning how underpowered they are, yet sporting high ranks. How does that happen?

4) Hunters are willing to sacrifice DPS for survivability in the moors, but it has to be within reason; which is reasonable

5) Lots of examples of hunter crits with no context. Nowhere is it mentioned if the hunter actually lived after critting a creep that high, and rarely that the creep actually died.

6) Creeps assume of the 15 classes, hunter is the lone one that should not be able to 1v1

7) BA's just saying hunters are "supposed" to lose to them as a matter of course.

Originally Posted by Estranger

Observations:

3) Same creeps all over the forums bemoaning how underpowered they are, yet sporting high ranks. How does that happen?

6) Creeps assume of the 15 classes, hunter is the lone one that should not be able to 1v1

I think all of your points are valid except for #3, and I have a question for #6.

3 - How do we sport high ranks? LOTS (caps lock emphasis) of time. It is very easy to take part in a kill or two, suddenly be focus fired, and immediately be sent back to the rez. Is this and efficient way to rank? Nope but thats usually how it goes. Does this make us not underpowered? Most definitely not. I may be able to leech a few infamy here and there but if a freep says hmm that (insert class) needs to die, then I will day.

6 - First, when you say 1v1 do you mean in a 1v1 circle where you jump up and down and then start fighting? If so I don't think the game is supposed to be balanced for that. Do you mean you are riding, you see a lone creep, and you cannot take him down? Well then I'd say hunters have a pretty decent shot (pun wholeheartedly intended). Second, how would you intend to make the hunter class win more 1v1 encounters? I feel like most of the time battles end up in melee range if hunters cannot burn their opponent down fast enough so do you propose better melee skills? Good luck balancing the hunter class by giving them a powerful melee arsenal. Just curious as to your statement here, no flaming on my part.

Originally Posted by Estranger

Observations:

1) Lot of creeps here fearing their favorite source of infamy being cut off.

2) Creeps come to the hunter forums to tell us how OP we are, and very same creeps in creep forums talk about how easy it is to kill hunters.

3) Same creeps all over the forums bemoaning how underpowered they are, yet sporting high ranks. How does that happen?

4) Hunters are willing to sacrifice DPS for survivability in the moors, but it has to be within reason; which is reasonable

5) Lots of examples of hunter crits with no context. Nowhere is it mentioned if the hunter actually lived after critting a creep that high, and rarely that the creep actually died.

6) Creeps assume of the 15 classes, hunter is the lone one that should not be able to 1v1

7) BA's just saying hunters are "supposed" to lose to them as a matter of course.

I would expect this from the most played class to make it a little fair.

But saying that the option to nurf our dps somewhat for some survivability is fine by me. Even if that means bring back a ranged route that compliments melee dps burst when targets get close. I was all for the idea before and people mowning about it just ment us hunters didn't really change from 65 to 75. I feel lost playing the class next to my epic minstrel.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

I think all of your points are valid except for #3, and I have a question for #6.

3 - How do we sport high ranks? LOTS (caps lock emphasis) of time. It is very easy to take part in a kill or two, suddenly be focus fired, and immediately be sent back to the rez. Is this and efficient way to rank? Nope but thats usually how it goes. Does this make us not underpowered? Most definitely not. I may be able to leech a few infamy here and there but if a freep says hmm that (insert class) needs to die, then I will day.

If x says y need to die, y dies... How is that different for any other class? Even something like a top end raid spec'd guard with all his CD's and stun immunity, and focused healing will die if the creeps really want him to.

What I fail to understand is, and I've asked the question multiple times regarding this current terrible state of creep underpoweredness . If you will agree that despite the current state creeps are in, they're not as bad off as the creeps were back in the days of SoA, with true perma-cc and 1 and 2 infamy per kill with skills that even at ranks 4,5,6 could take a year to unlock, why is that period by and large by both freep and creep alike, especially around Books 12-14 - admittedly infamy/renown gain was increased then - considered the golden age of pvp?

In other words, if creeps back then, who suffered under circumstances far worse than creeps today, not only enjoyed that period more than this current one, and also achieved high ranks relative to the age of the game, what are these current creeps farking problem?

6 - First, when you say 1v1 do you mean in a 1v1 circle where you jump up and down and then start fighting? If so I don't think the game is supposed to be balanced for that. Do you mean you are riding, you see a lone creep, and you cannot take him down? Well then I'd say hunters have a pretty decent shot (pun wholeheartedly intended).

No, never a 1v1 circle. With preparation and awareness at least decent hunters are on equal footing or better than alot of creeps. There's still an exception though; barring crit, the BA will still kill the hunter.

Second, how would you intend to make the hunter class win more 1v1 encounters? I feel like most of the time battles end up in melee range if hunters cannot burn their opponent down fast enough so do you propose better melee skills? Good luck balancing the hunter class by giving them a powerful melee arsenal. Just curious as to your statement here, no flaming on my part.

Hunters lose due to crits. They are the only class that cannot mitigate them. Crit pounces, crit knockdowns on headshots, critted devstating blows from reavers, critted slows from WL's, etc etc etc. To even the playing field hunters need some sort of crit protection.

Originally Posted by Estranger

If x says y need to die, y dies... How is that different for any other class? Even something like a top end raid spec'd guard with all his CD's and stun immunity, and focused healing will die if the creeps really want him to.

not by one creep, if my warg says that guard needs to die, it won't really matter, but if that one freep choose to kill me (say an LM or champ), I will almost immediately

What I fail to understand is, and I've asked the question multiple times regarding this current terrible state of creep underpoweredness . If you will agree that despite the current state creeps are in, they're not as bad off as the creeps were back in the days of SoA, with true perma-cc and 1 and 2 infamy per kill with skills that even at ranks 4,5,6 could take a year to unlock, why is that period by and large by both freep and creep alike, especially around Books 12-14 - admittedly infamy/renown gain was increased then - considered the golden age of pvp?

I didn't play creepside muchless lotro back then, I started playing creep about 3 weeks ago haha; all I can say is if you haven't played a creep please do, its quite rough

In other words, if creeps back then, who suffered under circumstances far worse than creeps today, not only enjoyed that period more than this current one, and also achieved high ranks relative to the age of the game, what are these current creeps farking problem?

can't say as to why they supposedly enjoyed it more; now creeps are angry because they get demolished by facerolly classes

No, never a 1v1 circle. With preparation and awareness at least decent hunters are on equal footing or better than alot of creeps. There's still an exception though; barring crit, the BA will still kill the hunter.

yes prepared and set up hunters have an advantage over every class except BA, if you ask me I don't think that any class should have an advantage over every class! I'd say having an advantage over every class but one is a plus for hunters (:

Hunters lose due to crits. They are the only class that cannot mitigate them. Crit pounces, crit knockdowns on headshots, critted devstating blows from reavers, critted slows from WL's, etc etc etc. To even the playing field hunters need some sort of crit protection.

many hunters do win on crits though so maybe it should go both ways this seems like a pretty good idea though, kinda like it

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

many hunters do win on crits though so maybe it should go both ways this seems like a pretty good idea though, kinda like it

Agreed, crits equal luck. You saw from a hunter here in this thread he talked about how he hit improved focus on a BA and still didn't crit him. Bad luck. BA knocks him down, or Revenge crits, etc, good luck. Player skill is taken out of the equation and yes, it definately works both ways. Luck is a lousy combat mechanic period, but its 10 times worse for hunters who cannot mitigate crits. Even a greenie with no passives has 3000 crit protection. A hunter has zero, unless he devotes some LI relics to it, and even then can only get 520. 1040 if he has some old runes long removed from the game.

With the new warg skills based off crits, it's going to get even worse for hunters assuming they don't get any survivability.

Personally, I think they should remove crits from the game entirely, at least in pvp. Like we get that buff that removes item wear upon entering the moors, we get a buff that makes us immune to crits and devs; all classes, both sides. It'd slow combat speed down for more epic fights, and at the same time let us better measure our characters capabilities because we can better rely on our tool tips.

Of course, it'd completely break burglars who rely on crit chains, and negate other skills that buff crit chances and open other skills, so I don't see it ever happening.

I missed your other stuff. Responses:

not by one creep, if my warg says that guard needs to die, it won't really matter, but if that one freep choose to kill me (say an LM or champ), I will almost immediately

No you won't, you can hips or sprint.

I didn't play creepside muchless lotro back then, I started playing creep about 3 weeks ago haha; all I can say is if you haven't played a creep please do, its quite rough

I play creep far more than freep.

can't say as to why they supposedly enjoyed it more; now creeps are angry because they get demolished by facerolly classes

Or they've become so spoiled by turbine that they think every time they get demolished its because turbine can't balance the game? Its never because the player was better, right?

yes prepared and set up hunters have an advantage over every class except BA, if you ask me I don't think that any class should have an advantage over every class! I'd say having an advantage over every class but one is a plus for hunters (:

Hunters do not have an advantage over every other class in a set up 1v1. Hunters have a chance. For creeps vs huntes, barring luck (crits) skill still will win out.

Originally Posted by Estranger

I missed your other stuff. Responses:



No you won't, you can hips or sprint.

the majority of the time they are on cool down or I will sometimes hips and have a major LM dot on me or i sprint and get stunned by a mini or I get stunned by a burg and killed before I wake up (just found out about stun pots a couple days ago, quite noobish I understand

I play creep far more than freep.

see below

Or they've become so spoiled by turbine that they think every time they get demolished its because turbine can't balance the game? Its never because the player was better, right?

if you see play creep far more than you freep then you may be an absolutely exceptional player. you cannot say though that the majority of times creeps die because the freep was a superior player. it takes 3+ decent creeps to take down a champ who uses bubbles and CD's. and to your question, perhaps nearly every person on creepside is just a ####.py player and all the freeps are highly skilled masters. I'm sorry but if you think the game is currently balanced I will no long argue with you as you are denying a simple fact. sure there are VERY well played freeps but a bad freep will demolish a decent creep.

Hunters do not have an advantage over every other class in a set up 1v1. Hunters have a chance. For creeps vs huntes, barring luck (crits) skill still will win out.

you just said in your last post that hunters have a better chance to win than most feeps (other than BA's) when they have time to set up. but yes I agree, barring luck, skill wins out vs. hunters. I thought you were arguing that hunters needed a buff? Seems to me you think they are pretty well balanced (and I agree for the most part)

Originally Posted by Estranger

Personally, I think they should remove crits from the game entirely, at least in pvp. Like we get that buff that removes item wear upon entering the moors, we get a buff that makes us immune to crits and devs; all classes, both sides. It'd slow combat speed down for more epic fights, and at the same time let us better measure our characters capabilities because we can better rely on our tool tips.

Now you're just trolling, this would completely destroy burglars in moors and champs wouldnt get to use Seeking Blades and gain their decent RS crits.

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

the majority of the time they are on cool down or I will sometimes hips and have a major LM dot on me or i sprint and get stunned by a mini or I get stunned by a burg and killed before I wake up (just found out about stun pots a couple days ago, quite noobish I understand

Well, if you are noobish, and its your term not mine, then why are you here debating balance? No offense, but I wouldn't think you'd have the experience to make a valid judgement. What you are saying is that regardless of your skill level, which I would assume to be low given your inexperience, and seriously not at all trying to flame you, you believe as a new player you should win against players that have been playing for years?

As to those times when you hips or sprint and still die, do you not also at times live?

if you see play creep far more than you freep then you may be an absolutely exceptional player. you cannot say though that the majority of times creeps die because the freep was a superior player. it takes 3+ decent creeps to take down a champ who uses bubbles and CD's. and to your question, perhaps nearly every person on creepside is just a ####.py player and all the freeps are highly skilled masters. I'm sorry but if you think the game is currently balanced I will no long argue with you as you are denying a simple fact. sure there are VERY well played freeps but a bad freep will demolish a decent creep.

I never claimed the game was currently balanced, what I said was why is it then that at a time where the game was even more unbalanced than it is now was that time viewed as more enjoyable by both sides?

And we are in the hunter forums, no? Champ forums are ------------>

I've never claimed that champs are balanced.

We're really drifting into typical forum derailment here. In order to try and disprove my point that despite all the whining, creeps are still killing freeps, you're delving into areas you admittedly don't have alot of experience with, have not been part of the discusion, and affected by a bit of hyperbole and exaggerated interpretation ("freeps are highly skilled masters"). None of which will work with me.

you just said in your last post that hunters have a better chance to win than most feeps (other than BA's) when they have time to set up. but yes I agree, barring luck, skill wins out vs. hunters. I thought you were arguing that hunters needed a buff? Seems to me you think they are pretty well balanced (and I agree for the most part)

I never said that - more misinterpretation. I said in a set up 1v1 situation, hunters at least have a chance; as compared to a non-setup 1v1 where most hunters are being farmed. The vast majority of the time, most 1v1's are non setup. Hunters getting jumped. In those sitations, as every creep will attest, hunter by far, give creeps the highest percent chance to win.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Now you're just trolling, this would completely destroy burglars in moors and champs wouldnt get to use Seeking Blades and gain their decent RS crits.

If you're going to respond to me:

Read.

What.

I.

Write.

Here's the rest of it.

Of course, it'd completely break burglars who rely on crit chains, and negate other skills that buff crit chances and open other skills, so I don't see it ever happening.

Hardly trolling.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Yes, you didnt crit.

This is the mentality thats part of the carryover from the PvE (at least it appears to be). It appears You believe you should be able to kill, and if you cant there is a problem. You didnt mention what is starting morale was, did you drop him 7k or so without crits?

Sometimes the uncapping of stats for the pve game dosent work and you dont get the massive critical, had you gotten it the outcome would have likely been different. As it is you dropped probably half his morale and he kited you (smart BA). So whats your solution here? Is your solution that you should have more critical chance, higher morale pool?

What exactly would you want, within the situation above to garner you a kill?

Please be specific because I dont see the problem here. You gambled (it was a good gamble) and you lost out on the crit roll.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

If you look back in the thread I am a creep player who advocates hunter survivability. My idea is make “press onward” a true legendary

1. 60% of morale and power scaled to the toon
2. Induction cant be interrupted
3. Half the induction time to 2s
4. 5 minute cool down.
I don’t think you will find a reasonable creep who will deny hunter’s need better survivability but even with the press onward enhancement I have put forth (many times, in other threads as well), the hunter isnt going to win unless he gets a critical. Is that fair? Yes it is given the immense damage a critical can do and the chances you have to get one.

This is a reality of the PvE build, you all have to crit to survive the end game raids or have exceptional healers. Im not a fan of it, because I think you all crit to much but the point is you, he really most freeps on a 1v1 arent going to survive unless you get a few critical hits. He could have just as easily gotten off 3 IPS for 2k each, maybe a 4k splashed in (don’t know his build).

His argument is one made on the creep side all the time about survivability except we don’t get the criticals. Even Ba’s don’t have the % chance to hit them like every freep class does. So, he gambled on the crit chance and lost, im willing to bet this is the exception not the rule. If it were the rule why would he have taken the shot? He expected to win, I have no doubt in my mind of that and I would wager he wasn’t thinking of survivability when he popped from camo to take his roll…..

Since you asked...the BA I jumped had 12k morale. I was built for ganking, ie low morale, all offence, which for my build is 2200 agility, putting my RO at ~110%. Was it a good gamble? I don't think so, I die more often than I am successful, so then why do I bother? It happens to be one of the only reliable way to get kills solo. I could, and often do switch to my PvP gear, but just gaining an extra 1-2k morale costs me 30% of my damage, often making me even less effective solo. While my ~6k damage in a couple seconds I nice for non crits, it's only 50% of an average creeps morale pool (There are a couple reavers with 15k that mow me down like a blade of grass). When I take hits from a BA, they might be smaller, but the BA has half to morale pool to burn through (I have 7k in my morale gear). I can dev for 6-7k on HS, but get crit back for 3.5 from VT, each is ~50% morale pool, and one of us has no MT.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Now you're just trolling, this would completely destroy burglars in moors and champs wouldnt get to use Seeking Blades and gain their decent RS crits.

Just give all participants "Crit Magnitude Immunity" - or idk... Virtues/Corruptions with powerful enough reduction bonus, so crits still happen, still open up gated skills, but their role is significantly decreased so the only thing left to do is balance the result.

OK, that last part was ...sigh...


And while I am already writing to Santa, can we also eliminate association of "skill" with Agile Wrist and Nimble Fingers "legendary" traits, the ones that belong in CoD-kind of pvp, not necessarily RPG/stat/rotation-based game?

Originally Posted by Estranger

Well, if you are noobish, and its your term not mine, then why are you here debating balance? No offense, but I wouldn't think you'd have the experience to make a valid judgement. What you are saying is that regardless of your skill level, which I would assume to be low given your inexperience, and seriously not at all trying to flame you, you believe as a new player you should win against players that have been playing for years?

As to those times when you hips or sprint and still die, do you not also at times live?

even though I am new I still have observations and am entitled to my opinion. so far I have not seen balance. and DEAR LORD NO, I don't think brand new creeps should be able to defeat season freeps who have spent their time grinding gear and virtues. I was actually happy to see that wasn't the fact. I don't think though that literally as soon as I am spotted I should be stunned and burned down in legitimately under 4 seconds. that seems off to me


I never claimed the game was currently balanced, what I said was why is it then that at a time where the game was even more unbalanced than it is now was that time viewed as more enjoyable by both sides?

can't speak to that point as I already stated

And we are in the hunter forums, no? Champ forums are ------------>

I've never claimed that champs are balanced.

thats correct, you did however says creeps have been babied and won't accept that maybe the freep player that beat them was better. I am simply pointing to champions (could do so to maybe a few other classes) and saying "Look!" I could be a superior player to this guy and still be demolished

We're really drifting into typical forum derailment here. In order to try and disprove my point that despite all the whining, creeps are still killing freeps, you're delving into areas you admittedly don't have alot of experience with, have not been part of the discusion, and affected by a bit of hyperbole and exaggerated interpretation ("freeps are highly skilled masters"). None of which will work with me.

creeps are killing freep, in my experience though, mostly in 3v1's or 5v2's. I'm simply delving into the blatantly unbalanced parts of the game that even a new creep can see. also you seem to have taken my quote out of context. you said that maybe creeps lose because they aren't as good at playing the game as freeps, I'm saying fine. Since creeps almost always lose it seems that all the freeps in the moors are very very good players.

I never said that - more misinterpretation. I said in a set up 1v1 situation, hunters at least have a chance; as compared to a non-setup 1v1 where most hunters are being farmed. The vast majority of the time, most 1v1's are non setup. Hunters getting jumped. In those sitations, as every creep will attest, hunter by far, give creeps the highest percent chance to win.

in a set up they have a chance. ok seems balanced so far since the class design isn't really suited for 1v1's starting in melee range. in the next part though, you are only taking into context the times in which the hunter gets jump. what about when the hunter jumps the creep? hunters now have the advantage. but yes in your context, where the hunter is jumped, they are the weakest freep class. so in hunter vs creep battles, whoever gets the jump has the best chance. sounds like hunters don't need much buffing. are they the weakest freep in the moors? yes but are they pretty balanced compared to creeps, kinda seems like it to me, so far.

lots of words and numbers and names and ideas

even though I am new I still have observations and am entitled to my opinion.

Everyone with a valid subscription is entitled to the forums and thus entitled to their opinion. Doesn’t make your opinion valid though, does it? All I’m saying is in each case where you report back what you’ve experienced, I’m going to tell you that if you are still here three years from now, you are going to look back on your opinions, which you have every right to make, and shake your head.

so far I have not seen balance.

Of course you haven’t, you’ve been playing for three weeks. What you are doing is taking your own experiences, which every low ranked goes through unfortunately – and I most definitely agree should be fixed – and then tying that experience to what the higher creep ranks are whining about, and you think it’s the same thing. But its not.

I don't think though that literally as soon as I am spotted I should be stunned and burned down in legitimately under 4 seconds. that seems off to me

Why? If that is happening its either because your reaction times are slow because you’re new or the freeps reaction times are fast because they’re not. You just finished saying you shouldn’t be equal to an experienced freep and then you say you should.

can't speak to that point as I already stated

But you keep bringing it back up:

thats correct, you did however says creeps have been babied and won't accept that maybe the freep player that beat them was better. I am simply pointing to champions (could do so to maybe a few other classes) and saying "Look!" I could be a superior player to this guy and still be demolished

But you’re not, right? By definition you’ve been playing for three weeks. At minimum even if the champ is r0, he’s at least had the prior experience of 75 levels to get used to his class. You’ve had three weeks. So the argument has to go back to, if things aren’t as bad as they were in the past how did those in the past get by?

creeps are killing freep, in my experience though, mostly in 3v1's or 5v2's.

But you’ve got three weeks’ worth of experience.

I'm simply delving into the blatantly unbalanced parts of the game that even a new creep can see. also you seem to have taken my quote out of context. you said that maybe creeps lose because they aren't as good at playing the game as freeps, I'm saying fine. Since creeps almost always lose it seems that all the freeps in the moors are very very good players.

I know creeps that can kill champions and minstrels and laugh at this forum nonsense we participate in. Show me any empirical data that says creeps almost always lose. What you’re saying is more baseless hyperbole that you glean for your own experience as a “greenie” and creep crying.

Can I make the argument that overall freeps are better players than creeps? I don’t know. That’s pretty difficult to discern. I’ve know some very very good creep players. If I were to try to make that argument though I’d say this in defense of the position that freeps inherently make for better players than creeps:


1) a lot of current creeps have not spent a lot of time freepside where they learn basic game mechanics. They don’t know what crits are, or crit protection, interrupts, DR, LOS, mouse turning, using pots, traiting corruptions, getting higher level corruptions from the traders, and on and on. They just hop in the car and go because understanding it and maintaining it are things that turned them off from freepside in the first place.

2) a lot of current creeps go to creepside because they tire of the grind of freepside. If you dislike working to build your class, it’s reasonable to imagine you will also dislike learning the ins and outs of your new class that requires much less grinding but has its own nuances and subtleties. In other words, if you play half assed freepside, it’s highly likely you will creepside as well, and creepside kind of by its original intent was designed to appeal this way.

3) Due to the numbers imbalance, and creep health vs NPC dps, the faction is very prone to zerging. Maps, March!, warg packs. Every server has their players who form groups and hunt singles or groups much smaller than their own. Do too much of it, and when you find yourself in a real fight, 1v1 or RvR or whatever, and get destroyed, cry nerf, instead of realizing you’ve been getting fat and slow zerging all the time instead of pushing yourself in harder fights. Freeps zerg too of course. But a lot of times a zerging creep will go solo to quest, or maybe his buddies he zergs with aren’t around, or maybe a raid isn’t formed yet or whatever and zerger runs into a non raid baby freep and of course immediately turbine needs to rebalance the ettenmoors.

4) Because freeps have a whole nother dimension to play in – pve – that creeps don’t, they have more ways to learn their class, adapt it to new situations, uncover more nuances and subtleties

5)There’s more freeps. Even though there may be more creeps in the zone more often, there’s still more freeps active on the server at a given time, so from a purely statistical point of view, there’s a much higher chance of “good” players being in the moors freepside than creepside simply because freeps have a larger player pool to draw on.

6) Creepside turnover is super high. Because there is nothing else to do but pvp after you’ve got all your maps done, people get bored and quit Of all the creeps I used to play with back in SoA, I don’t believe any are playing now. I’d say from Moria about 75% are gone. From Mirk 50%. You bleed that kind of experience, then you lose not only their skill but their knowledge to pass on and the faction becomes less for their absence. Freeps tend to stick around longer, because of PVE. They can pass on what they know longer. Evidence of this is on every server in NA - I’m pretty sure its still true but too lazy to check - there are more high ranked freeps than creeps, and the highest ranked freeps on a given server outrank the highest ranked creeps.

7) Creeps have far more younger players than freeps. It seems to me that I run into more children creepside. And lets face it, children are stupid and easy to beat. And they also think the world owes them a living. Unfortunately they don’t always loose this outlook. So they think simply because they are in the ettenmoors they should be able to kill anyone and anything. And then they don’t cause they’re children and then they cry in OOC or the Forums, and since we don’t actually know they’re children we listen to what they have to say, where had you known it was an 8 year old crying he lost in a 1v1 to a hunter because he tried to out range him on his spider, you’d be like ya, whatever.


Btw, I’m not trying to say everyone on creepside sucks. I’ve just been musing the points one would have to make to make the argument. I’m not even saying I think they’re correct.

ok seems balanced so far since the class design isn't really suited for 1v1's starting in melee range.

Right. But the other 14 classes are. So its not that there’s something wrong, its that that’s the way its supposed to be: 14 classes can 1v1 in melee, and 1 cannot. Gotcha.


[quote]in the next part though, you are only taking into context the times in which the hunter gets jump. [quote]

No, in that part I am responding to your previous question. I was not setting the context, you were.

what about when the hunter jumps the creep? hunters now have the advantage. but yes in your context, where the hunter is jumped, they are the weakest freep class. so in hunter vs creep battles, whoever gets the jump has the best chance. sounds like hunters don't need much buffing. are they the weakest freep in the moors? yes but are they pretty balanced compared to creeps, kinda seems like it to me, so far.

Except you don’t define who gets the jump easiest right? Weavers are untrackable burrowed, reavers have charge as an immediate skill, wargs can stealth against hunters who don’t trait heightened sense or can manipulate HS to jump them if they do. BA’s don’t need it they’ll win regardless. So we’re left with what it actually means to get the jump on someone… A warg that doesn’t realize he’s being tracked, a reaver who doesn’t realize someone’s behind him, a WL or defiler that doesn’t know how to heal themselves.

And quess what we’re right back to… player skill vs player skill. So why should the fight be determined by player skill only if the hunter gets to initiate contact? Why shouldn’t player skill vs player skill matter if contact is initiated by either party?

Don't compare hunters to champs, or any other class for that matter. It just annoys me when someone claim moors is unbalanced, then attack the hunter forums for that 4k crit a champ landed on them while his 3k morale bubble was up. We can't do that, so we have every right to ask for some compensation.

Originally Posted by Estranger

If you're going to respond to me:

Read.

What.

I.

Write.

Here's the rest of it.

Hardly trolling.

That makes it even worse, it makes no sense to suggest stuff like that when you know it wont happen. Are light sabers and blasters coming up soon as suggestions?

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

That makes it even worse, it makes no sense to suggest stuff like that when you know it wont happen. Are light sabers and blasters coming up soon as suggestions?

Ha, who's trolling again?

Originally Posted by Balagast

My only grief with hunters atm is the ability to do damage in raids compared with RK's and Champs. The best hunter can keep up with either (maybe) on a single target, but has no shot at doing so and being able to manage their threat properly. We are the only class that is really has to make a significant sacrifice to not generate excess threat. RK's have their skill that reduces there threat and it actually increases their damage too. Champs can simply dump their aggro if they need. Hunters on the other hand are forced to use endurance stance which is complete garbage.

Add a threat drop (real threat not perceived) to Hunter's Art when you are in precision. That skill is all but useless do to its current animation lack of real damage output and focus cost as it is right now, but I'd totally sacrifice some focus and time in my rotation if it meant I didn't have to constant worry about pulling aggro in boss fights.

I have never had a threat issue. As long as you use quickshot in endurance a few times for certain moments, go all out in others and beneath when you pull so guard knows what skills to use and your guard doesn't suck you won't have an issue. Agro is entirely dependent on your guardian. I do 2k-2.4k dps in saruman giving the tank no chance to build threat on each mob and I have little worries.

Meh.. Hunters are fine where they are. I'm not even fully geared and I can beat 90% of the wargs in a 1v1. Hell, the other day I got jumped by a rank 10 warg without focus and I killed him without NH or stun pots. Given, he isn't a good warg at all but when I am finished getting gear, there won't be much that can beat me besides a BA who uses evade/uruk.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Since you asked...the BA I jumped had 12k morale. I was built for ganking, ie low morale, all offence, which for my build is 2200 agility, putting my RO at ~110%. Was it a good gamble? I don't think so, I die more often than I am successful, so then why do I bother? It happens to be one of the only reliable way to get kills solo. I could, and often do switch to my PvP gear, but just gaining an extra 1-2k morale costs me 30% of my damage, often making me even less effective solo. While my ~6k damage in a couple seconds I nice for non crits, it's only 50% of an average creeps morale pool (There are a couple reavers with 15k that mow me down like a blade of grass). When I take hits from a BA, they might be smaller, but the BA has half to morale pool to burn through (I have 7k in my morale gear). I can dev for 6-7k on HS, but get crit back for 3.5 from VT, each is ~50% morale pool, and one of us has no MT.

So indeed my assumption was correct, you gambled on getting the crit. 2200 agility, cant see any other rational. It isnt a bad gamble either (might not have picked a BA, but thats me). None the less, this is the plight of the hunter you are actually functioning correctly with that build. You should die if you dont critical hit because your built specifically to kill the enemy before it kills you.

that dosent mean you shouldnt get a boost for survival within this build but DPS for hunter's really isnt the issue IMHO, you have proven that. Had you got the critical the outcome would have likely been different.

If the argument becomes you should have a higher chance to critical, to kill the creep faster and enhance your survivability, fine but its got to be one or the other. Id take the morale bump, because it prolongs your life and allows you another chance to get the crit.