Thread: Do Hunters really need buffed?

Correct me if Im wrong but I hear that Hunters are currently dissatisfied ?

Your ranged damage is unreal..2-3K crits can easily be spammed

And your melee damage (+ daze) is on par with (current) Wargs (this may change after U6)

Arindhias scored a devastating hit with Improved Dazing Blow on Purebloodnakh for 934 Westernesse damage to Morale.

How do you justify wanting more buffs?

I think Hunters could use increased survivability in the Moors.

But it should be at the cost of some DPS, because with the current long range damage they are capable of, it would push them into OP territory IMO.

My only grief with hunters atm is the ability to do damage in raids compared with RK's and Champs. The best hunter can keep up with either (maybe) on a single target, but has no shot at doing so and being able to manage their threat properly. We are the only class that is really has to make a significant sacrifice to not generate excess threat. RK's have their skill that reduces there threat and it actually increases their damage too. Champs can simply dump their aggro if they need. Hunters on the other hand are forced to use endurance stance which is complete garbage.

Add a threat drop (real threat not perceived) to Hunter's Art when you are in precision. That skill is all but useless do to its current animation lack of real damage output and focus cost as it is right now, but I'd totally sacrifice some focus and time in my rotation if it meant I didn't have to constant worry about pulling aggro in boss fights.

Desperate flight useable in moors - 10min CD, with that my hunter would be happy :3

Also insta cast for traps wouldnt hurt....Just hope the dissappearing of ZC means hes working 24/7 on updates for U6, otherwise imma make turbine give my damn money back...IN DOUBLE!!!

Originally Posted by marlwyn

Desperate flight useable in moors - 10min CD, with that my hunter would be happy :3

Also insta cast for traps wouldnt hurt....Just hope the dissappearing of ZC means hes working 24/7 on updates for U6, otherwise imma make turbine give my damn money back...IN DOUBLE!!!

Quick Traps no longer in game?

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Correct me if Im wrong but I hear that Hunters are currently dissatisfied ?

Your ranged damage is unreal..2-3K crits can easily be spammed

And your melee damage (+ daze) is on par with (current) Wargs (this may change after U6)

Arindhias scored a devastating hit with Improved Dazing Blow on Purebloodnakh for 934 Westernesse damage to Morale.

How do you justify wanting more buffs?

Help me understand

Hunter vs Warg may be a even match, but aside from spiders, hunters are not equal to anyone else.

Originally Posted by Balagast

Add a threat drop (real threat not perceived) to Hunter's Art when you are in precision. That skill is all but useless do to its current animation lack of real damage output and focus cost as it is right now, but I'd totally sacrifice some focus and time in my rotation if it meant I didn't have to constant worry about pulling aggro in boss fights.

That would be great, I would likely use HA again.

Nice cherry picked combat log.

How about the one of a mini doing an insta-cast 3k and a stun while bubbled and self healing afterward followed by a 6k coda...

...or the one with a champ or burg aim SS/remorseless for 3-4k + stunning with bubbles heavy armor and KO or hips...

...or the one with a

Okay I'll stop. The point is you can make any class look OP with a combat log paste. I suppose my point is that we should see that hunter do that with you attacking him, rather than you doing nothing for 15+ seconds. And don't even TRY to compare a 3s daze on a long CD to your 6s stun and 10k+ morale (yes, greenies have less).

PvE - No

PvMP - Yes

All I want is a way to neglect BA's Moving Target. 10s buff that makes my arrow going thru B/P/E... +90% ranged evade is really annoying thing...

That's it. If I get a OhSceizSkill I wouldn't mind, but currently I don't need it. Let's see after U6.

if you want to tell us we dont need buffs show us your enemies stats and yours for a week and show us all of them not just your best

The problem about hunters currently is more of less the fact that Burglars do more DPS then hunters can.

Parsing against a burg in draig on the same targets the burg was getting 3,100-3,500 DPS where as I was only getting around 2,500.

This is the only real problem with hunters that I would like to have fixed.


Single target DPS, Burgs own #1 spot.

I just think we're seeing the concern that the creeps most-favored and easy Infamy pool might get some attention.. of course they would be worried... god forbid they made DF useable in the 'moors.

Elkeon scored a critical hit with Heart Seeker on Purebloodnakh for 7,130 Beleriand damage to Morale.
Elkeon scored a devastating hit with Blood Arrow on Purebloodnakh for 4,943 Beleriand damage to Morale

over 12K in 2 attacks

My Warg has 13K total morale

<shrugs> I was 3-shotted by a BA .. besides, with the wargs getting the love.. don't QQ when more hunters just group/raid up you'll have to find a new easy-inf pool

Originally Posted by Shredex

The problem about hunters currently is more of less the fact that Burglars do more DPS then hunters can.

Parsing against a burg in draig on the same targets the burg was getting 3,100-3,500 DPS where as I was only getting around 2,500.

This is the only real problem with hunters that I would like to have fixed.


Single target DPS, Burgs own #1 spot.

Shredex, the problem with doing a parse in draig is the damage buffs. As hunters we get a 25%? damage buff, while melee classes are getting 50%? buff. So, that kinda throws the parse off. Btw, it's been awhile since I've run draig, so correct me if I'm wrong about the percent of the buffs.

Originally Posted by Balagast

My only grief with hunters atm is the ability to do damage in raids compared with RK's and Champs. The best hunter can keep up with either (maybe) on a single target, but has no shot at doing so and being able to manage their threat properly. We are the only class that is really has to make a significant sacrifice to not generate excess threat. RK's have their skill that reduces there threat and it actually increases their damage too. Champs can simply dump their aggro if they need. Hunters on the other hand are forced to use endurance stance which is complete garbage.

Add a threat drop (real threat not perceived) to Hunter's Art when you are in precision. That skill is all but useless do to its current animation lack of real damage output and focus cost as it is right now, but I'd totally sacrifice some focus and time in my rotation if it meant I didn't have to constant worry about pulling aggro in boss fights.

Totally agree with this!

First off: I don't do much PvMP (there's little fun in it as a hunter anyway) and believe that whatever balance issues exists there, should be fixed using the creep stats, and the freeps balanced vs PvE.

But there's two issues:
- Hunters do proper DPS, comparable to our DPS cousins Champs/Rks, as you noticed there's not much wrong with just our DPS
- Hunters have less survivability (medium armor, especially after RoI hardly makes a difference with Light) than Champs and don't have any 'Oh ####!' button besides Desperate Flight... which is really only useful to prevent repair costs during a accidental pull in a raid or something. At the same time we have less aggro management skills, so when we do encounter those 'Oh ####!' moments there's only one option: RUN!.
- Hunters have less flexibility and utility than Rks. We're forced to stand still, but unlike RKs we can't switch to a kite&fight style. We don't have a secondary role that's as essential as healing and are absolutely powerless when a group fight goes wrong and you're about to wipe, where a RK can assist with healing and has some nifty group buffs, even if not traited for healing.
- So what do we have? Our secondary CC role... which largely depends on traiting entirely down the yellow CC line, giving up significant damage bonuses, bringing our DPS down to healing-RK level (granted with the current Adaptation buff in ToO it's suddenly become more interesting). And even for normal questing in Dunland I find that my hunter depends as much as my LM on his ability to CC mobs to survive the tougher fights.

So in short in order to be somewhat comparable (in DPS, survivability and utility) to the most similar classes fully equipped and traited for their DPS role, we need to mix and match both our primary and secondary roles. Which pretty much means there's something unbalanced... it either needs a tad more survivability, more utility or be absolute king-of-the-hill on DPS.

The problem most likely comes from being balanced against 40m range... which puts us out of harms way in a lot of situations. But it causes problems when you don't have that advantage, like boss fights with whole-room-AoE effects, stealthed wargs that are able to start the fight from melee, narrow corridors, camps with high respawn rates, high morale elites etc.

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Help me understand

As someone else pointed out, this combat log shows you doing absolutely nothing, plus, I'll bet that hunter's morale was at 6k with maybe like 20-25% mitigations? I can get those kind of numbers in my PvE build yes, but in PvMP, usually hunters are running in more morale/mit based gear unless they're raid babies. Did you really just ask some hunter to pop shots off at you until you could get a convenient string of big hits that you could post? Honestly, there's no way I think this is reasonable without you posting that hunter's stats/gear while he did that. Sure, he can unload lots of damage in a short time, but I very much doubt he could take a whole lot before he got whooped by a warg who isn't just standing there taking it.

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Is thorlug a non-traited rank 0 creep?

Originally Posted by Ingaras

So in short in order to be somewhat comparable (in DPS, survivability and utility) to the most similar classes fully equipped and traited for their DPS role, we need to mix and match both our primary and secondary roles. Which pretty much means there's something unbalanced... it either needs a tad more survivability, more utility or be absolute king-of-the-hill on DPS.

The problem most likely comes from being balanced against 40m range... which puts us out of harms way in a lot of situations. But it causes problems when you don't have that advantage, like boss fights with whole-room-AoE effects, stealthed wargs that are able to start the fight from melee, narrow corridors, camps with high respawn rates, high morale elites etc.

Would be nice to see some update to hunter survivability or dps for PvE. However, increasing dps would have a highly negative effect on PvP as it's already possible for good hunters to 1-shoot creeps. If the general dps was increased then almost every hunter would be able to 1-shot creeps, which would honestly be a disaster for PvP.
A minor improvement could be Swift Stroke. I've found that the skill is actually somewhat good for when you get attacked, but it could use just a tiny bit more defense.
A skill similar to elf parry could also be useful. Perhaps 50% parry chance for 15secs or such. It would be a useful survival skill and at the same time it has a counter to prevent it being too overpowered in PvP (parry doesn't work if your opponent's behind you).
Also would be nice if hunter dps was brought up higher in comparison to rks/burgs/champs. Although creepside mitigations would also need to go up for this to work properly with balance. But then again with the current dps from every freepside class creepside mitigations could really use a major boost anyway.

Originally Posted by Gretolas

Is thorlug a non-traited rank 0 creep?

You telling us you cant get those kind of crits in Ettenmoors on ranked Creeps?

Survivability.


That is all people are asking for. Since you see champs and minstrels running around with bubbles, guardians and wardens can survive long enough, burglars have a useful hips, lore-masters have wisdom of the council, captains have their last stand.

All I ask for is ONE survival skill, just something that will let us live a bit longer if we are pounced by several wargs. This could simply be to allow desperate flight in combat, or maybe a bubble or what not.

Following the trend, we will receive a nerf with U6, I bet 20g ZC will find some way to nerf our survivability even more; and I bet it will be the removal of the Dazing Blow Stun or something ridiculous.

Your reputation on this post is Negative.
Trolling

Looks like someone doesnt like the spotlight on Hunters DPS

Hunters don't need a buff but what they do need is some sort of revamp. This class is so broken atm Im getting tired of playing it. The only thing good about a hunter is our DPS which is better then every class no matter what you guys say. There needs to be some sort of survivability skill like BAs moving target or maybe even a small bubble. This might require a small dps nerf but I would take it. xD

So a hunter can kill creep in 1 shot, or by spamming 1 skill and you cry for more survival skills? Can you be more easymode? If you dont like dying in moors do a morale build and run with captain and/or guard. Lotro pvp is a group pvp.

Originally Posted by gunlang

So a hunter can kill creep in 1 shot, or by spamming 1 skill and you cry for more survival skills? Can you be more easymode? If you dont like dying in moors do a morale build and run with captain and/or guard. Lotro pvp is a group pvp.

I don't like dying in the moors so I don't play in the moors... but that doesn't mean that there's still an imbalance between the DPS classes. Champion friends of mine crit Remorseless strikes for as much as my Heartseeker and that's a virtually spammable skill, without long induction and 'Hide or Die' rectangle. And they get heavy armour and a bubble?

And if buffing the Hunter makes it unfair for creeps, give the creeps some skill to cope with it...

Originally Posted by Ingaras

I don't like dying in the moors so I don't play in the moors... but that doesn't mean that there's still an imbalance between the DPS classes. Champion friends of mine crit Remorseless strikes for as much as my Heartseeker and that's a virtually spammable skill, without long induction and 'Hide or Die' rectangle. And they get heavy armour and a bubble?

Because champs are OP. Its not hunters who need buff, its minstrels and champs who needs nerf. Dont compare to those classes pls.

I got killed in 2 shots by a hunter before, on multiple occasions. Needless to say, it wasn't fun. I suppose a hunter's best defence in the moors is huge damage output ability, is it not?

I can see in PvE if you compare that hunters could need a boost. A dps boost however would need some really good aggro-control skill to go with it. Already it's somewhat easy to draw aggro off tanks if you go full dps and Beneath Notice has a somewhat long cd and low duration. It's good for when you're testing out the aggro limit of the tank, but not very useful in long fights where you want to go high dps.
A survivability boost would be fine though. We already have a melee skill that's supposed to boost our defense a bit, so improving that would be a good first step. If hunters are to get more survival skills though, I'd vouch for a parry % skill, since it's useful for defense and yet it can be countered by a smart opponent.
Although might note that playing hunter and warg with similar tactics worked well for me. The basic idea with both is the same, either you kill your opponent fast or you die. Wargs can sprint/disappear but those honestly aren't that great for survival skills as they're rarely enough to turn a battle. You could use them to run away with, but that beats the point of fighting I think.
I'd hate for hunters to get something similar to those warg skills as a skill to be able to stay in combat and stay alive longer would be a lot more useful. (I suppose if you like to play for surviving in moors you might like those warg skills, but if you want to stand a good chance of winning fights then they're not too useful. Sprint can be used for kiting though I'll admit)

However, I think that any update to hunters should be minded towards PvE to balance hunters with the other classes. Atm hunters are about the most balanced freep class in PvP as hunters are basically glass-cannons. Means that 1v1 hunters are dangerous and it's often reasonable equal fights that way (bas might be slightly stronger but not sure, as it's the only creep class I don't have). So any boost to hunters would also make a boost to creeps necessary (kind of already is, for dealing with other freep classes). The idea that hunters are easy kills in Ettens might come from the fact that all the other classes are so powerful that usually if creeps don't have numbers they'll try to avoid the other classes.

Originally Posted by Aztec_Soul

I got killed in 2 shots by a hunter before, on multiple occasions. Needless to say, it wasn't fun. I suppose a hunter's best defence in the moors is huge damage output ability, is it not?

Very good point

They say "the best defense is a good offense"

I think we can all agree Hunters definitely have that covered

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Very good point

They say "the best defense is a good offense"

I think we can all agree Hunters definitely have that covered

Well, the new patch notes say they've reverted creep mits back to how they were before..

Hunters can survive, on ridder we have 2 or 3 excellent hunters who know how to mouse turn and use their skills. That said they still die more so then any other freep on my server. Freeps are already in OP mode, but the hunter, of any of the classes probably has the best gripe on survivability. Damage is ridiculous for all freep classes, the uncapping of stats for ROI has produced major damage output for the properly traited toon. Adjustments were not made adequately on the creepside (actually mits were lowered) and you have the situation we are in now in the moors.

These are 2 distinct issues though, and survivability of the hunter IMHO is unique as it wasn’t given enough attention. Again don’t mistake this as an endorsement of the ridiculous DPS, I see it as two separate issues. Hunters should have press onward scaled up to 60% of morale and power, 5 min cool down, half the induction and it can’t be interrupted. Make it a true legendary, this will help hunter survivability a lot.

I’m also willing to entertain stealth movement options but it’s going to have to cost something in return. A trait slot somewhere, I’d rather not just have camo buffed to allow movement. Other than that, armor and mitigations everyone got porked at ROI (not just wardens). I really believe “press onward” is the best option, it’s a legendary and it’s an easy enough tweak for the moors and it will be useful for raids as well.

On ranked creeps, including my mitigation heavy WL:

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Correct me if Im wrong but I hear that Hunters are currently dissatisfied ?

Your ranged damage is unreal..2-3K crits can easily be spammed

And your melee damage (+ daze) is on par with (current) Wargs (this may change after U6)

Arindhias scored a devastating hit with Improved Dazing Blow on Purebloodnakh for 934 Westernesse damage to Morale.

How do you justify wanting more buffs?

Help me understand

first of all dazing blow has a 1 minute cooldown.

second of all, wargs kill hunters even faster than hunters kill you in the moors. so to be fair, since you're calling for hunter nerfs, your next post better be asking for warg nerfs or we'll just count you as another QQ creep.

BAs hit freeps just as hard as hunters hit creeps, but they get survival skills that hunters don't. comparing hunters to BAs is the only fair way to compare, since wargs are basicly creep burgs, and warleaders are basicly creep minstrels.

help me understand why it's okay to have a creep archer class with lots more morale and mitigations that dishes out hunter damage, and yet has champ survivability... and it's NOT okay for hunters to DF once every 30 minutes? why is it NOT okay for hunters to have a chance at surviving a 1v1 in the moors when the hunter is ambushed?

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Hunters can survive, on ridder we have 2 or 3 excellent hunters who know how to mouse turn and use their skills. That said they still die more so then any other freep on my server. Freeps are already in OP mode, but the hunter, of any of the classes probably has the best gripe on survivability. Damage is ridiculous for all freep classes, the uncapping of stats for ROI has produced major damage output for the properly traited toon. Adjustments were not made adequately on the creepside (actually mits were lowered) and you have the situation we are in now in the moors.

These are 2 distinct issues though, and survivability of the hunter IMHO is unique as it wasn’t given enough attention. Again don’t mistake this as an endorsement of the ridiculous DPS, I see it as two separate issues. Hunters should have press onward scaled up to 60% of morale and power, 5 min cool down, half the induction and it can’t be interrupted. Make it a true legendary, this will help hunter survivability a lot.

I’m also willing to entertain stealth movement options but it’s going to have to cost something in return. A trait slot somewhere, I’d rather not just have camo buffed to allow movement. Other than that, armor and mitigations everyone got porked at ROI (not just wardens). I really believe “press onward” is the best option, it’s a legendary and it’s an easy enough tweak for the moors and it will be useful for raids as well.

I think you are my long-lost cousin :P

Agree with you a 100%. I am not in favor of any dps improvements for Hunters.. frankly none needed. Survivability is the question. With the 2 things above I'd believe that hunters would be in a good place. I'd even go as far to say with the second suggestion above relative to stealth movement; either a trait requirement or comes with a % dmg reduction ..

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

Nice cherry picked combat log.

How about the one of a mini doing an insta-cast 3k and a stun while bubbled and self healing afterward followed by a 6k coda...

...or the one with a champ or burg aim SS/remorseless for 3-4k + stunning with bubbles heavy armor and KO or hips...

...or the one with a

Okay I'll stop. The point is you can make any class look OP with a combat log paste. I suppose my point is that we should see that hunter do that with you attacking him, rather than you doing nothing for 15+ seconds. And don't even TRY to compare a 3s daze on a long CD to your 6s stun and 10k+ morale (yes, greenies have less).

Cherry picked ? My combat log on my reaver is cram full with 1.7k-2.3k penetrating shots from decently well geared up hunters, over and over and over again. With improved focus hunters reach upwards of 50% crit rate for a short while, there's nothing particularly uncommon about those hits or the frequency of them. Getting shot at by a hunter at range out of the blue without possibility of retaliation isn't unusual either thanks to camouflage, long range and fleetness ...

Comparing hunters to minstrels, champions or burglars in the moors seems to validate PurebloodWorg's question to me, these aren't exactly classes in need of buffs. On that note though, while burglars and champions can auto-(dev)crit their big hits, and hunters can raise their crit rate very high to reliably produce the sort of combat log posted, minstrels cannot crit anywhere as often (and 6k Coda of Fury was exceptional even before its damage was decreased, I have never hit or been hit for that much, series of ~2k pen shots on the other hand ...).

Originally Posted by Warleadersneedlove

On ranked creeps, including my mitigation heavy WL:

*snip photos*

Whats your point? That hunters shine in raids?
Hunters are not called "raid babies" because the class is bad IN raids, its because the class is bad OUTSIDE of raids.

No, hunters don't really need a damage increase. Yes, we really should have a threat management skill for PvE.
Yes, we NEED something to help our survivability in PvP.

Mitigation heavy? My penetrating shot + breach-finder laughs at the idea. You get no more mitigation then I do.
Comparable survivability in 1v1? Maybe on CM, not in the open world.
Given 2-3 seconds, an unprepared (no focus) hunter can unleash a lot of single target damage (assuming focus pots, IC off cooldown)
But that large amount of damage is hard to get off, and requires a ton of time before it is usable. And sure hope the hunter didnt get stunned, because that is an instant death

Originally Posted by Strikerin

Whats your point? That hunters shine in raids?
Hunters are not called "raid babies" because the class is bad IN raids, its because the class is bad OUTSIDE of raids.

No, hunters don't really need a damage increase. Yes, we really should have a threat management skill for PvE.
Yes, we NEED something to help our survivability in PvP.

Mitigation heavy? My penetrating shot + breach-finder laughs at the idea. You get no more mitigation then I do.
Comparable survivability in 1v1? Maybe on CM, not in the open world.
Given 2-3 seconds, an unprepared (no focus) hunter can unleash a lot of single target damage (assuming focus pots, IC off cooldown)
But that large amount of damage is hard to get off, and requires a ton of time before it is usable. And sure hope the hunter didnt get stunned, because that is an instant death

Straight up. Despite survivability issues, in a raid, hunters can just hide behind everyone else and just nuke creeps(and hope you dont get singled out too soon)
Yes,we do heavy damage but i would sacrifice half of that damage for just some more survibality...even pressonward is useless most of the time because it takes so long and it can be interrupted- im sitting here trying to get a press onward off while some BA is shooting at me, and press onward doesnt even give all that much morale/power. in the time it takes to get press onward i would have taken enough damage to negate it (or just kill me).
and a -1500 mitigation paired with a -8% mitigation for penetrating shot goes a long way.

would also help if they reduced the cooldown for silvan shadow and camouflage. seems to be one of the most reliable ways of not getting yourself ambushed.

In terms of being a 'dps' class, it can be fine if you consider yourself fortunate enough to land hits. However, a lot of people seem to equate being a viable player with just big damage, when its rather being able to move, much like a minstrel does and a variety of other classes and still deal damage. A stance that would cut our damage by 70, 80% would be far more viable than big hits in a lot of cases if it gave decent speed. There's simply no adequate way with hunters as they are to balance morale or agility, and maintain some sort of survival when there is no survival in PvP regardless. (fleetness is only short duration, not worth the focus cost either.) This is one of the reasons I refuse to sub.

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

I think you are my long-lost cousin :P

Agree with you a 100%. I am not in favor of any dps improvements for Hunters.. frankly none needed. Survivability is the question. With the 2 things above I'd believe that hunters would be in a good place. I'd even go as far to say with the second suggestion above relative to stealth movement; either a trait requirement or comes with a % dmg reduction ..

I see the issues fairly clearly and while I often use a vitriolic tone to garner attention I am very reasonable at my core. Hence we have the DPS issue separated, and a lot of creep players can’t do that. The damage isn’t going away, you all need it for the end game raids sadly creep players haven’t been extended the appropriate attention to compensate, I don’t think that’s up for debate.

So we come to the hunter survivability, and it’s a reasonable argument to make that killing the creep is the best chance to survive. Really, it’s hard to argue against it and in this vein the hunter is fine. The issue then becomes more narrowed in context, when is the hunter unable to survive, and importantly should its chances of survival be high in that context?

It’s clear we are talking about the warg pounce or a warg pack. There really shouldn’t be any freeps who can survive solo with a warg pack on them, the fact they can is the result of the PvE changes. Hunters need to be brought up to a point where you are encouraged to go out in the moors solo. If a pack hits, it hits you know the drill and the outcome. That said a hunter should be able to track a solo warg, engage it and kill it, even if the warg stuns first and burns its cool downs. So the choice then becomes do you get more melee buffs or more morale? I believe morale is the way to go, because we are talking about vs wargs here (lets be honest any other toon you’ll hit at range).

Press onward is really the best solution here, because it’s useful in all aspects of the game and you change the buff to 60% of morale its now scaled based on the hunters build. It may not save you 1v1 with a warg out in the field, it’s only going to make you harder to kill and that’s the point here.