Thema: Questions Over Lore

Zitat von Radhruin_EU

First off, in any pre-industrial society the overwhelming majority of people live on the land, not in towns and cities...they'd still have to extract resources from the land, grow crops, keep animals...

You make some very good points, but the Elves of Lindon were a very advanced society and, as you briefly mention, lived in very close harmony with nature, far closer than mankind was possible of doing. It's also very possible, if not likely, that they traded with Dwarves for objects made of metal, or outsourced some work, particularly stonework, to Dwarves. (Recall Legolas discussing bringing Elven gardners to Minas Tirith, while Gimli spoke of Dwarven stonemasons?) A good example is Thingol, although he, of course, lived in a different time and place.

Zitat von Radhruin_EU

My point was that most of the place had chance to go back to something like a natural state since it had been largely abandoned for a few thousand years.

That would be a good point if Lindon had been abandoned. I don't believe that it was. More sparsely populated, yes, abandoned, no. I will concede your point if you can provide evidence that Lindon was abandoned near the end of the Third Age. (Book and chapter, please. No vague references.)

Zitat von oldbadgerbrock

You make some very good points, but the Elves of Lindon were a very advanced society and, as you briefly mention, lived in very close harmony with nature, far closer than mankind was possible of doing. It's also very possible, if not likely, that they traded with Dwarves for objects made of metal, or outsourced some work, particularly stonework, to Dwarves. (Recall Legolas discussing bringing Elven gardners to Minas Tirith, while Gimli spoke of Dwarven stonemasons?) A good example is Thingol, although he, of course, lived in a different time and place.

My point was that you can't really live that much in harmony with nature if there are lots of you (because everyone needs feeding, Elves or no) and you've got a sophisticated material culture. That only comes from exploiting a landscape, repurposing it to suit your needs, going far and wide to get the things you need (or trading for them, which naturally requires something to trade). And since we know that the Noldor did their own metalwork and their own construction work, too, we can hardly pretend the Dwarves did everything and even if we did, the materials would still have to come from somewhere. Besides, the Dwarves were rather insistent on being paid for their work.

That would be a good point if Lindon had been abandoned. I don't believe that it was. More sparsely populated, yes, abandoned, no. I will concede your point if you can provide evidence that Lindon was abandoned near the end of the Third Age. (Book and chapter, please. No vague references.)

Largely abandoned, I said. The population is known to have contracted sharply as a result of the War of the Last Alliance; besides the casualties in the war itself, the death of Gil-galad and so many others was the last straw for many of the remaining Elves of Lindon and they took ship into the West. I believe we've had this out before: fewer people inevitably means not only that less land is needed but that there's less manpower to work the land, and the surplus land is left untended. As we're talking Elves here, that'd be permanent because their population would never recover.

Zitat von Radhruin_EU

My point was that you can't really live that much in harmony with nature if there are lots of you (because everyone needs feeding, Elves or no) and you've got a sophisticated material culture. That only comes from exploiting a landscape, repurposing it to suit your needs, going far and wide to get the things you need (or trading for them, which naturally requires something to trade)...

I think we'll have to disagree on this point. I acknowledge that what you say is true of human populations, but the ways of the Elves are inscrutable. Think of the populations we know more about: Imladris, Lothlórien, and the Woodland Realm. They seemed to manage living in harmony with nature very well. Imladris had massive wildernesses (Trollshaws, Misty Mountains) on either side of it. The Galadhrim of Lothlórien lived in the middle of a large forest, as did Thanduil's folk in Mirkwood. Sure, both Imladris and Lothlórien were preserved through Rings of Power, but Thranduil had no such Ring.

Zitat von oldbadgerbrock

I think we'll have to disagree on this point. I acknowledge that what you say is true of human populations, but the ways of the Elves are inscrutable. Think of the populations we know more about: Imladris, Lothlórien, and the Woodland Realm. They seemed to manage living in harmony with nature very well. Imladris had massive wildernesses (Trollshaws, Misty Mountains) on either side of it. The Galadhrim of Lothlórien lived in the middle of a large forest, as did Thanduil's folk in Mirkwood. Sure, both Imladris and Lothlórien were preserved through Rings of Power, but Thranduil had no such Ring.

I'm sorry, but that's a cop-out. As I said, Elves had to eat the same as everybody else; they didn't live on thin air. If they ate bread (as we know they did, from when Gildor and company shared a meal with the hobbits) then they'd have had to engage in some good old-fashioned agriculture much like Men or hobbits did. Doubtless there'd have been some Elvish 'magic' to it, somewhere along the way, but still.

As for material culture, the Noldor in particular were known for extravagant architecture and not just in the Sil, either - 'deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us' as Legolas said the stones of Eregion remembered. The Silvan Elves were different: the Elves of Lorien were living a very different lifestyle to that found in the high civilisation of the Noldor and Lindon had been, after all, one of the last bright flowerings of that civilisation (the other being Eregion). The Elf-towers in the Tower Hills are an example: Gil-galad had them built as a gift to Elendil, we're told. Building extensively in stone is hardly living in harmony with nature.

Going back to Lorien, they too must have been growing crops and not just living off the land. You simply can't do that if there are a lot of people in one place. If Galadriel was making lembas, the flour used came from corn which had originally been brought from Valinor and so somewhere in Lorien, there must have been a field where they grew that corn. It didn't grow on trees.

I know it's hard to imagine Elves living everyday lives, doing mundane chores, but nonetheless they must have done.

Well, the Elves were seldom seen by men, so the crops didn't come from there. Neither did the Dwarves grow food (But they did trade with Men). Elves definitely had no dealings with Hobbits.
So the only logical conclusion would be that they had a large stock from the days when they used to trade, or they used to grow food.

It is not possible that they grew food, as Rivendell was not near any farm lands, and the conditions in Lorien were not suitable for farming (Can't grow crops in a Forest). The Elves did not deforest for farmland either.

It could be just a mistake by the professor. Many things in LotRO wouldn't make sense IRL (Other than the obvious ones)
Like the foundation of Moria's wealth being something so scarce as Mithril. If it was that pricey, it wouldn't have that much demand either, as only a few people would have the money to buy it. Low demand = Low prices. Low supply = Low prices. Also, a big cost of production (Finding rare veins of Mithril in dark and deep places. The miners would have asked for a lot.)

Actually, there may be another explanation, which is actually hinted in "The Lord of the Rings". Just remember what gift is given to Sam, a noble gardener, by Galadriel. The effect of just one small box of "magical" fertilizer on the entire Shire was incredible, so there you have it: the elves in Lothlorien had managed to grow their crops fast, and much more effectively. Thus, they could have had some crop fields in the realm, and at the same time not leave a big impact on the forest.

Of course, this would most probably not apply to areas inhabited mostly by Noldor, who were more inclined to build big, and we see a lot of evidence for that. Eregion may have looked deserted at the end of the Third Age, but about 4,600 had passed since the area was last inhabited, so nature must have taken its course. On the other hand, Lindon and the elven habitations in Ered Luin (if there were any) should look much more cultivated. In Imladris, there were probably not too many elves, so no large production would be needed, and the emphasis would be on hunting (though there is some vague mentioning of gardens behind Elrond's home). The inetersting part is Thranduil's realm - there, they may have either relied on hunting & gathering, or their fields may have been at the edge of the forest, far from sight.

At any rate, this is all speculation on my part, and I doubt we'll ever know for certain.

I don't think Galadriel grew wheat in her Gardens

And in the Shire, the Barley Yield increased. But the farming area required remained the same. In orien, you could've made the soil as rich as you wanted, but you won't be able to grow much wheat in a forest.

Zitat von Radhruin_EU

My point was that you can't really live that much in harmony with nature if there are lots of you (because everyone needs feeding, Elves or no) and you've got a sophisticated material culture. That only comes from exploiting a landscape, repurposing it to suit your needs, going far and wide to get the things you need (or trading for them, which naturally requires something to trade). And since we know that the Noldor did their own metalwork and their own construction work, too, we can hardly pretend the Dwarves did everything and even if we did, the materials would still have to come from somewhere. Besides, the Dwarves were rather insistent on being paid for their work.

I disagree with part of your point here. I do not think that using the resources of the land is equivalent to "exploiting a landscape". Especially since to all appearances Middle-earth was created for the Children of Iluvatar. Living in harmony with nature does not require that nature be left pristine.

Zitat von Adanamir

Actually, there may be another explanation, which is actually hinted in "The Lord of the Rings". Just remember what gift is given to Sam, a noble gardener, by Galadriel. The effect of just one small box of "magical" fertilizer on the entire Shire was incredible, so there you have it: the elves in Lothlorien had managed to grow their crops fast, and much more effectively. Thus, they could have had some crop fields in the realm, and at the same time not leave a big impact on the forest.

Of course, this would most probably not apply to areas inhabited mostly by Noldor, who were more inclined to build big, and we see a lot of evidence for that. Eregion may have looked deserted at the end of the Third Age, but about 4,600 had passed since the area was last inhabited, so nature must have taken its course. On the other hand, Lindon and the elven habitations in Ered Luin (if there were any) should look much more cultivated. In Imladris, there were probably not too many elves, so no large production would be needed, and the emphasis would be on hunting (though there is some vague mentioning of gardens behind Elrond's home). The inetersting part is Thranduil's realm - there, they may have either relied on hunting & gathering, or their fields may have been at the edge of the forest, far from sight.

At any rate, this is all speculation on my part, and I doubt we'll ever know for certain.

Just a quick point. Remember the chapter "Barrels out Of Bond" from The Hobbit. The elves had extensive trade with the Lakemen by way of the river. I can see where the vast majority of any farmed goods could have been acquired in this way. Wine transport is what the majority of the barrels in the chapter are used for, though I think I recall something about apples. It is easy to imagine that all sorts of commodities were shipped this way.

Zitat von Haunt123

I don't think Galadriel grew wheat in her Gardens

This is what Tolkien had to say about lembas (from 'Of Lembas', as published in The Peoples of Middle-earth):

'...it was made of a kind of corn which Yavanna brought forth in the fields of Aman'

And:

'Now this corn had in it the strong life of Aman, which it could impart to those who had the need and right to use the bread. If it was sown at any season, save in frost, it soon sprouted and grew swiftly, though it did not thrive in the shadow of plants of Middle-earth and would not endure winds that came out of the North while Morgoth dwelt there. Else it needed only a little sunlight to ripen; for it took swiftly and multiplied with all the vigour of any light that fell upon it.

The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades...'

So that's how 'Gladdy' would have had to go about growing the special corn. Going by the rest of what Tolkien said it'd have been a very pretty sight, growing in a sunny glade amidst the mallorns. as the corn had great golden ears and white stalks and no mundane beast or pest or mould would touch it. When it was ripe, Galadriel and her maidens (who'd have been the only ones allowed to touch it) would have gone into the field and gathered it entirely by hand, without using tools, and woven the straw into baskets to store the grain. Singing songs of praise and thanks to Yavanna while they did so, I imagine. All very 'Elvish', but it'd have been hard work all the same.

Those who don't like the idea of Elves doing ordinary things can console themselves with that

Zitat von Haunt123

I don't think Galadriel grew wheat in her Gardens

And in the Shire, the Barley Yield increased. But the farming area required remained the same. In orien, you could've made the soil as rich as you wanted, but you won't be able to grow much wheat in a forest.

My idea was that crops are grown somewhere in Lothlorien, not necessarily in Caras Galadhon, and with the better fertilizers, you wouldn't need such a big area to feed the population. What Galadriel might have grown in her gardens, however, is vines

Zitat von Fionnuala

I disagree with part of your point here. I do not think that using the resources of the land is equivalent to "exploiting a landscape". Especially since to all appearances Middle-earth was created for the Children of Iluvatar. Living in harmony with nature does not require that nature be left pristine.

I'm not seeing how the Noldor lifestyle could be said to be 'in harmony with nature', building cities and raising great stone towers and whatnot. You can't either build or maintain a civilisation, in the true meaning of the word, without some large-scale messing with nature and some of it, such as quarrying and mining, can't help but be a messy business that scars the landscape. (Even if they were to do their best to pretty it up again afterwards).

Zitat von Radhruin_EU

I'm sorry, but that's a cop-out.

I presume this is in regards to my statement that "the ways of the Elves are inscrutable"? I could illustrate this with several examples, but this is perhaps the best:

'Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

'They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are Elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all of these things under the twilight of Lórien that we love, for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make. Yet they are garments, not armour, andthey will not turn shaft or blade. But they should serve you well: they are light to wear, and warm enough or cool enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees.

Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Farewell to Lórien'. The Fellowship of the Ring, volume I of The Lord of the Rings.

Zitat von oldbadgerbrock

I presume this is in regards to my statement that "the ways of the Elves are inscrutable"? I could illustrate this with several examples, but this is perhaps the best:

I really can't see what difference that makes. Sure, if an Elf who possessed skill and power crafted something painstakingly, really putting their heart into the work, then what they made could be 'magical' by that virtue. How that worked was certainly inscrutable but the stuff it was made from, the raw materials, still had to come from somewhere. It wasn't as if Tolkien himself was always happy to leave things unexplained; as I mentioned earlier, there's a detailed explanation of what lembas was, where it came from originally and what it was made from which he wrote down for his own benefit. That's not so inscrutable. Because the Elves weren't entirely spiritual beings, they'd have had to engage with the material world much like everybody else; they might have been better at it than most, the results might have seemed 'magical' to others, but the overwhelming majority of the things they made would by necessity have had their beginnings in the mundane stuff of Middle-earth.

Or to put it another way: for each of those finely-made swords or helms or coats of mail of theirs, there must once have been a pile of iron ore and another pile of charcoal, and that all had to come from somewhere.