Thread: Questions Over Lore

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Unless he was busy elsewhere, as he evidently was when the Balrog was making Moria a place of horror. An actively-involved Balrog, actually on Sauron's side and doing stuff for him and privy to his plans, would have been the worst thing that could ever have happened. Just as well the Balrog only seems to have wanted a quiet life and a nice dark place to call its own.

The thing about Minas Tirith is that however grand it is, it's in the Third Age. The Balrog was a full-on supernatural terror from before the First Age, something Men were simply not equipped to deal with. Just as with Smaug, had it ever become actively involved on Sauron's side the mayhem it could have caused would have been unbelievable (and almost certainly fatal to the Free Peoples).

Yeah Sauron wouldve been very powerful had he had an active Balrog on his side....but Sauron is not a Valar like Morgoth.....Sauron, although very powerful himself, did not have an army even a fraction of what Morgoth's army was......Sauron did not have enough power himself to control Balrogs and Dragons....even the nazgul, his most terrifying servants, are under his command because of the nine rings of power with which he ensnared them....he most probably did not have the power to command such powerful and magical creatures as balrogs....

And the Balrog himself.....when he laid Moria to waste and made the dwarves flee, its safe to assume, he was only clearing out the disturbance in his place of rest and hiding.....it did not do so to purposely take over the dwarven kingdom.....just like all the other servants of Morgoth and Sauron, things like the Balrog apparently would need a driving force.....someone's will that drove it, to do dangerous deeds such as attacking Minas Tirith.....with no such force of will, a single Balrog couldnt think of attacking let alone taking out something as powerful as Minas Tirith....and even if it did, it wouldnt be successful......creatures like those needed a master to command their strength for purposes of destruction and domination....just like the entire army of Mordor fled when the Dark Tower fell....they were still enough to overpower the Captains of the West with ease....but they did not because powerful as they are, they cannot fight on their own at their full potential....they lacked the force of will.....if cornered, or if their home is threatened, maybe yes....like Durins Bane when someone disturbed him in Moria....but otherwise, it wouldnt be capable enough of such deeds....

And about stealth and detection.....Rivendell had Elrond who would immediately sense something as powerful as a Balrog in the valley of Imladris....same with Galadriel and Lothlorien......and Minas Tirith had the palantir.....it would be close to impossible to use stealth against such powerful people and magical things like the elven rings and the palantir....even though Minas Tirith was in the 3rd age, the palantir was made ages ago...by Feanor himself....even a maia couldnt fool that....

So for the purpose of that debate, unless it had a master like Morgoth, a solo balrog could not take out Minas Tirith or Lothlorien or Rivendell.....imo....cause destruction, yes.....but conquer, I doubt it....

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

Yeah Sauron wouldve been very powerful had he had an active Balrog on his side....but Sauron is not a Valar like Morgoth.....Sauron, although very powerful himself, did not have an army even a fraction of what Morgoth's army was......Sauron did not have enough power himself to control Balrogs and Dragons....even the nazgul, his most terrifying servants, are under his command because of the nine rings of power with which he ensnared them....he most probably did not have the power to command such powerful and magical creatures as balrogs....

Sauron had, in fact, been the Balrogs' superior back when he was Morgoth's lieutenant, but that was ancient history. He certainly couldn't control beings like that, but he could come to some private arrangement with them (much as he'd come to an accommodation with Shelob). As it was, DB obviously wasn't interested in risking itself for Sauron's glory, but that was seemingly fine with Sauron because that kept Moria out of the hands of the Dwarves and with it, the mithril (he coveted the stuff, he just couldn't get enough of it). Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff

And about stealth and detection.....Rivendell had Elrond who would immediately sense something as powerful as a Balrog in the valley of Imladris....same with Galadriel and Lothlorien......and Minas Tirith had the palantir.....it would be close to impossible to use stealth against such powerful people and magical things like the elven rings and the palantir....even though Minas Tirith was in the 3rd age, the palantir was made ages ago...by Feanor himself....even a maia couldnt fool that....

A palantir would only look where you told it to, it wasn't like an early-warning system or anything. The one in Minas Tirith wasn't working properly at the time anyway due to Sauron messing with it via the one he had. Remember, he used it to show Denethor only what he wanted him to see, until the poor bloke decided all was lost and went mad.

Sure, a Balrog would be reluctant to tangle with the likes of Elrond or Galadriel but Men and Dwarves, no problem. That's why the plot keeps DB lurking in Moria instead of going walkabout

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff

You know, I just realized that the last person to talk to the last dragon was a simple Hobbit from an unknown(uncouth according to Radagast) area in the back waters of Middle Earth called the Shire.

I can't imagine Smaug being Sauron's lackey after all that time being on his own. He just seemed too independent. Maybe back in the day but in Bilbo's time? I just can't see it. Especially with him kicking back on a pile of treasure.

I'm staying out of the main argument here but only want to say that perhaps if Sauron offered Smaug a cut of the riches of Minis Tirith, he might have been able to get Smaug involved on his side--after all, dragons can never seem to have enough riches! At any rate, Gandalf obviously feared Smaug's involvement.

Here's a question: Both Gandalf and Aragorn had traveled through Moria before the fellowship's trip through there. Aragorn encountered something terrible and wasn't keen on going back, but Gandalf had no problem with it (don't pay attention to the movie's portrayal; it didn't match the books).

Also, when we get to the battle at Balin's tomb and afterwards, when Gandalf sends them ahead and uses his spells and encountered DB for the first time, it seems he didn't know what it was.

It just appears to me--and I will admit that it's been a while since I read it so perhaps I'm misinterpreting it--but it appears that Gandalf didn't know that DB was in residence in Moria. Is that how it appears to others?

If that is so, that could be a big plus for the balrog in terms of stealth.

Of course, in any case, if the Balrog had come to an agreement with Sauron and chose to fight for him for whatever reason, he most certainly wouldn't have been alone when he came against Minis Tirith, and wouldn't have had to worry about stealth. And you can certainly say that if he had come against Minis Tirith, along with Sauron's army and all 9 nazgul, I don't think the battle on the Pelenor would have ended quite the same......And if Smaug was also still in the picture and also along for the ride, it definitely wouldn't have ended the same!

that makes me wonder: did Gandalf know DB was in Moria and intended to fight him all along as to keep him from aiding Sauron, such as his manipulations to get Smaug out of the way and to get the White Council to finally attack Dol Goldur? I mean, Gandalf was a great manipulator, so I wouldn't put it past him and he would know that he himself was probably about the only person in ME in this age that could fight it with any hope of winning--unless, of course, he could convince Glorfindel to do a repeat performance If that was the case, it would seem that he was pretty confident he could beat it. This is only true, of course, if I am mis-reading the text and Gandalf really did know it was there.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Sauron had, in fact, been the Balrogs' superior back when he was Morgoth's lieutenant, but that was ancient history. He certainly couldn't control beings like that, but he could come to some private arrangement with them (much as he'd come to an accommodation with Shelob). As it was, DB obviously wasn't interested in risking itself for Sauron's glory, but that was seemingly fine with Sauron because that kept Moria out of the hands of the Dwarves and with it, the mithril (he coveted the stuff, he just couldn't get enough of it). Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff

A palantir would only look where you told it to, it wasn't like an early-warning system or anything. The one in Minas Tirith wasn't working properly at the time anyway due to Sauron messing with it via the one he had. Remember, he used it to show Denethor only what he wanted him to see, until the poor bloke decided all was lost and went mad.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

I can't imagine Smaug being Sauron's lackey after all that time being on his own. He just seemed too independent. Maybe back in the day but in Bilbo's time? I just can't see it. Especially with him kicking back on a pile of treasure.

Yep exactly the point.....Smaug most probably wouldnt work for Sauron willingly.....even if Sauron had tempted it with more treasures because dragons are exceptionally cunning and wise creatures.....I dont think even Sauron would've been able to come to a deal with one of them and get them to work for him....

Originally Posted by AllySanders

I'm staying out of the main argument here but only want to say that perhaps if Sauron offered Smaug a cut of the riches of Minis Tirith, he might have been able to get Smaug involved on his side--after all, dragons can never seem to have enough riches! At any rate, Gandalf obviously feared Smaug's involvement.

Here's a question: Both Gandalf and Aragorn had traveled through Moria before the fellowship's trip through there. Aragorn encountered something terrible and wasn't keen on going back, but Gandalf had no problem with it (don't pay attention to the movie's portrayal; it didn't match the books).

Also, when we get to the battle at Balin's tomb and afterwards, when Gandalf sends them ahead and uses his spells and encountered DB for the first time, it seems he didn't know what it was.

It just appears to me--and I will admit that it's been a while since I read it so perhaps I'm misinterpreting it--but it appears that Gandalf didn't know that DB was in residence in Moria. Is that how it appears to others?

If that is so, that could be a big plus for the balrog in terms of stealth.

Gandalf obviously knew that Durin's Bane lived in Moria....but he did not know the nature of the creature.....as in what exactly it is......cause no one had faced it since the dwarves had......the movies show Saruman knowing what it is exactly.....but thats not true......no one knew it was a balrog in there......all that everyone knew a dangerous creature lurked in Moria called by the name of Durin's Bane....

Also Gandalf did not expect to face whatever Durin's Bane was, when they passed.....he was hoping to cross Moria without even arousing the orcs......he merely wanted to cross without raising any sort of alarm.....and he was only expecting to face orcs if at all any alarm was raised accidentally.....

So even when he encounters the balrog for the first time in the chamber of mazarbul, he understands he was facing a very powerful magical being.....but only understands the full truth and nature of the creature when Legolas yells out that a Balrog has come.....Gandalf then realizes what it is and decides to face it.....

So its not as much the stealth of the balrog that is the plus but rather its anonymity.....no one has seen Durin's Bane since the dwarves fled and there is no record nor anything at all of the exact name of the terror in moria.....just whispers and dread of a dark dangerous creature.......

Of course, in any case, if the Balrog had come to an agreement with Sauron and chose to fight for him for whatever reason, he most certainly wouldn't have been alone when he came against Minis Tirith, and wouldn't have had to worry about stealth. And you can certainly say that if he had come against Minis Tirith, along with Sauron's army and all 9 nazgul, I don't think the battle on the Pelenor would have ended quite the same......And if Smaug was also still in the picture and also along for the ride, it definitely wouldn't have ended the same!

that makes me wonder: did Gandalf know DB was in Moria and intended to fight him all along as to keep him from aiding Sauron, such as his manipulations to get Smaug out of the way and to get the White Council to finally attack Dol Goldur? I mean, Gandalf was a great manipulator, so I wouldn't put it past him and he would know that he himself was probably about the only person in ME in this age that could fight it with any hope of winning--unless, of course, he could convince Glorfindel to do a repeat performance If that was the case, it would seem that he was pretty confident he could beat it. This is only true, of course, if I am mis-reading the text and Gandalf really did know it was there.

His dealings with Thorins and co. and the whole Smaug affair does sound like something Gandalf would do to manipulate people into taking out a powerful enemy.....but I think he did that merely because Smaug by himelf was becoming a threat to that part of the world.....too much so.....

Also, if I read it correctly, Gandalf mightve been looking forward to getting a dwarven kingdom to be re-established in the Lonely Mountain.....Imho, he dint do it to take out Smaug fearing an alliance with Sauron, but more so to get a dwarven stronghold in that area which would later help in the final battles with Sauron.....if Smaug is defeated, Gandalf knew that the area of the Lonely Mountain, Dale and Northern Mirkwood would become very powerful utilizing the treasures of Smaug's hoard and would be strengthened with the alliance of three very strong races.....the Men of Dale, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Elves of Mirkwood......which does turn out to be true.....King Thranduil, King Dain and King Brand do make a good stronghold in those parts against the armies of Sauron in the war of the Ring.....so my guess would be that he did the whole Smaug manipulation more to achieve this alliance of free peoples more than out of fear of Smaug's alliance with Sauron.....

i think its at least accepted that gandalf wanted another frontier for the war of the ring, which as it happened was needed with both dale and erebor, and he also wanted smaug out of the way
i dont know if its been said yet, but gandalf and thorins meeting in bree is wrote about in the unfinished tales

Originally Posted by richsabre

i think its at least accepted that gandalf wanted another frontier for the war of the ring, which as it happened was needed with both dale and erebor, and he also wanted smaug out of the way
i dont know if its been said yet, but gandalf and thorins meeting in bree is wrote about in the unfinished tales

*eek!*

Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place!

This comes from the appendices to Return of the King, Apenndix A, Part III, Durin's Folk, concerning Gandalf and his thoughts on Smaug:

"On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.

Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be acheived?

'I grieved at the fall of Thorin,' said Gandalf; ' and now we hear that Dain has fallen.......Yet things might ahve gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles ini Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what migh thave been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be be no queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. but that has been averted--bcause I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree.'"


Surmising from Gandalf's own words, he clearly DID at least fear that Sauron would have been able to use Smaug as a weapon against Lorien and Rivendell in particular. So while certainly establishing the people of Dale and the dwarves of Eriabor in strength so to be able to appose the armies of the east was part of Gandalf's intent, so too was the singular destruction of the dragon to keep Sauron from using him.

It also seems that if he had not convinced the White Council to drive Sauron from Dol Goldur, that Sauron would have taken the war into the north with intentions of reclaiming Angmar and sweeping south from there, destroying Rivendell first and then everything else in his path.

Originally Posted by AllySanders

*eek!*

Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place!

ah, i dont know about this, and quite frankly i havnt got the time to re read all these post looking for it, as ive found this thread hard to keep up with anways, so for whatever its worthto prevant a pointless argument i retract that comment about this appartently unmentionable book (which i will refer to as UT) just to be safe anyways, even without where those sources come from, ive always believed that it was obvious what gandalf was doing when thorins co got together

Well, I personally admit that I lost the argument. Radhruin has convinced that if a Balrog managed to enter Minas Tirith using stealth and secrecy, he would be able to take Minas Tirith, albeit slowly.

If a Balrog entered Minas Tirith, as a plus point to him, Sauron would take the opportunity and attack Minas Tirith, and I bet Minas Tirith won't be able to face the Nine and the Balrog together. But this would also cause panic in ME, causing Rivendell and Lorien to possibly send aid. Good ol' Gandalf would also come.

But the Balrog alone vs. Minas Tirith would be victory for the Balrog, as Radhruin pointed out, though it may be under extraordinary circumstances. Thanks for taking part in that rather stretched out argument

Originally Posted by AllySanders

*eek!*

Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place!

can you please direct me to this argument as i cannot find it and would like to know what the chocolate you are referring to
thanks

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

When has Gandalf said he "fears" the Witch King? O.o

If you mean when he says to Denethor, "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared"

When I read that, I read it as " For one has come that I feared would be sent against Gondor"

This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:

---

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

---

So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!

Originally Posted by Norliriel

This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:

---

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

---

So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!

Thank you so much for posting this!

Someone mentioned the Gandalf snuck into DG? When was this? I know that Sauron used to live there as the "Necromancer" who corrupted Mirkwood. I thought the only great tower that Gandalf entered was Orthanc.

Gandalf went in...I want to say twice. It's been a while since I read the appendices to LOTR...which I believe is where I read that. Anyway, it's clear that he went in sometime prior to "The Hobbit". That is where he found Thrain, Thorin's father, who gave Gandalf the map and key for the Lonely Mountain that Gandalf gives to Thorin in early parts of that book, and that happened some years prior to that adventure as there is some kind of lag in time from the visit to Dol Guldur and the unexpected party that is made clear from the conversation in the Hobbit where the map first appears.

Originally Posted by Norliriel

This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:

---

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

---

So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!

Gandalf had nothing to fear from the Witch-King when it comes to 1v1 combat. Neither did the Witch-King fear Gandalf, though I'm not saying he was stronger.

But when it comes to leading an army, I think both of them have quite a lot to fear from each other.

Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?

Originally Posted by amien

Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?

I don't think so other than that Elrond is a master of lore, very wise. In Tolkien's world there are many times when characters have a moment when they suddenly see something yet to come. You could call it the non-overt magic of the world or maybe even visions planted by Iluvatar, the hand of fate perhaps, part of the Great Music.

Originally Posted by amien

Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?

This is just conjecture on my part, and I don't know if there's any lore to back this up, but I always thought Elrond's gift of foresight was due on some level to his possession of the ring Vilya.

Of course, as tuor said he was master of lore and knowledge can often help lead to anticipating what might happen. He had been observing the nature of people and events for a long time too.

I cannot really remember much LotRO-style 'magic' foretellings from Elrond from the books, where he is simply an over 6,000-year-old descendant of the High Elves. His father is essentially a god. (Well, Elf-hero guarding the morning star. Unless you accept Tuor to have part of Ulmo's power, then the actual god-blood comes from the mother's side.) Also, his early childhood was in the presence of a Silmaril, which means that some part of reason on what is natural to him can be abandoned right away. And later on, he was fostered by Maglor, of all the people. And then got a Ring of Power.

1. He is the son of the person who triggered the fall of Morgoth
2. He was the Herald of Gil-Galad, king of the High Elves
3. His was the only refuge for High Elves in Middle-Earth (Rivendell)
4. He has Vilya, the greatest of the Three Rings (I think)
5. He is more learned in lore than anyone, even Gandalf.
6. He is a very important member of the White Council.
7. He is the eldest of the Edain (though he is not a man himself), and was thus respected by all the Dunedain Kings.
8. He was the brother of the first King of Numenor.
9. He is descended from nearly ALL the houses of Elves and Men, and he is part Maiar too.
10. He, Cirdan, Gil Galad, Isildur and Elendil were the only ones who confronted Sauron

My post from some pages back, which illustrates the power of Elrond. By "he" I refer to Elrond, of course.

Originally Posted by Haunt123

My post from some pages back, which illustrates the power of Elrond. By "he" I refer to Elrond, of course.

#3 isn't entirely correct, though: Elrond's host escorted most of the survivors of Eregion into Rivendell, where they were besieged by a part of forces loyal to Sauron until Númenor took part in the war. Now, lots of the more in detail descriptions of the War of Elves and Sauron in the Second Age is apocryphal, but it is my understanding that some of the Elves of Eregion did flee the realm with the Galadhrim force Galadriel had sent to help Eregion (marching thru Moria), and ended up in Lórien. And then there is Lindon, which very likely had the highest number of Noldor alive, even if Eregion might have the highest ratio of Noldor to others. In any case, the majority of the inhabitants of any realms would be non-Noldor - I seem to remember a quote that in the First Age, about one fourth of the Elves in Beleriand were Noldor and the rest Sindar, but I'd need to find a source for that.

We do actually have a single direct mention of High Elven havens in Middle-earth at late Third Age:
"It is said that there are still havens of the High Elves, but they are far north and west, beyond the land of the Halflings. But where that may be, though the Lord and Lady may know, I do not."
- Haldir of Lórien

Now, Haldir isn't a reliable source (even by his own admission), but if he's right, then "beyond the land of the Halflings" essentially means that those havens are in Ered Luin or Lindon (possibly in the Emyn Beraid). It is, however, mentioned in the Appendices that Elrohir and Elrond did stay in Middle-earth with their High Elven relatives, so at least a few did stay in Rivendell, and elsewhere it is mentioned (in plural) that there were High Elves in Rivendell. So while the word only is not correct to describe Rivendell as a Noldorin refuge, perhaps the word chief might be more suitable. (Though causality here is broken - most likely it would be an important refuge because of Elrond.)

@Mithfindel

You are absolutely correct there. However, in my post, I didn't count the Grey Havens as a Haven for High Elves because the Elves went there to prepare for their journey West. So I just counted it as a port.

Rivendell would be the only Haven for High Elves where they go to "live", not just prepare for sailing out of Middle-Earth.

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

And then there is Lindon, which very likely had the highest number of Noldor alive, even if Eregion might have the highest ratio of Noldor to others.

Rivendell seems to be more important to High Elves than anywhere else at that time: besides Elrond, Glorfindel is there, as well as 'Elvish smiths' with the skill to reforge the Sword of Kings.

Then there's what Gildor Inglorion has to say:

'We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.'

Rather than Lindon, which is interesting.

Regarding Elrond's foresight: Lúthien, her mother Melian, and Idril - all ancestresses of Elrond - were all gifted in that way, so Elrond's foresight was probably at least partly inherited.

As for Arwen possessing it as well - probably. She did foresee that Aragorn would have use for the banner she embroidered for him, for one.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Then there's what Gildor Inglorion has to say:

'We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.'

Rather than Lindon, which is interesting.

Not as interesting when you consider the context. Gildor was himself a resident of Imladris, and therefore was speaking for himself and those close to him. We can surmise that he visited Bombadil, but we don't know whether and how often he visited Lindon. [Edit: Considering how closed off Lothlórien was to the rest of Middle-earth, it his highly unlikely that Gildor knew the status of the Galadhrim and the Noldor of that realm.] You will also note that Gildor did not say that the Exiles only live in Rivendell. He said "some", which infers that there may very well be others that live elsewhere, although obviously not as many as in the past as "most" have departed into the West.

Tolkien was using Gildor and his band as a device to convey to the reader that the time of the Elves was passing. By having Gildor refer to the Exiles, Tolkien was tieing into the history of Middle-earth that would eventually be published posthumously. (Tolkien had hoped to have The Silmarillion published at the same time as The Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, there wasn't much interest in the former at the time.) Tolkien often used this device to make his fiction appear to be a real history. You may recall the pretense of the material that appeared in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings was a translation from 'The Red Book of Westmarch', a history of events compiled by Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Not as interesting when you consider the context. Gildor was himself a resident of Imladris, and therefore was speaking for himself and those close to him.

It's interesting because he's not just anybody, he's a somebody: Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. So there were nobles who preferred to live in Rivendell rather than Lindon. Why, if Lindon's supposed to be so wonderful? It strikes me that Rivendell was simply the most stimulating place to be. Lindon was probably a little melancholy, not only because of its faded grandeur but because that view out to sea could only remind everyone of the West and all those who had gone there.

You will also note that Gildor did not say that the Exiles only live in Rivendell. He said "some", which infers that there may very well be others that live elsewhere, although obviously not as many as in the past as "most" have departed into the West.

It allows the possibility, but it doesn't imply that as such. As I read it, it simply suggests that 'some' still lived peacefully in Rivendell whereas 'most' had already gone into the West, which doesn't have to leave any remainder at all apart from the obvious exception of Gildor and his companions (those who've felt the urge to leave, who can no longer be at peace in Middle-earth).

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

It strikes me that Rivendell was simply the most stimulating place to be. Lindon was probably a little melancholy, not only because of its faded grandeur but because that view out to sea could only remind everyone of the West and all those who had gone there.

That's very likely true. Bilbo said that the Last Homely House in Imladris

...was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.

Of course the heart of a Hobbit is not the heart of an Elf. Still, I think everyone agreed that Imladris was a very special place.

It is true that Lindon was not preserved by a Ring of Power as were Imladris and Lothlórien, yet I imagine that it had its places that were still fair.

Oh my, we might fill a few pages about discussing Inglor and the House of Finrod. When the LotR was written, Inglor was the same Elf as Felagund, and Finrod was Finarfin - when LotR was revised, most names were changed to match the other mythos, but these two were kept the same. (Admitted, changing them would've added a whole new amount of questions, as Finrod (Findoráto Ingoldo, not Arafinwë) was childless in Middle-earth (his spouse-to-be decided to stay in the West and wait for him). Though yes, most known/named (Half-)Elves with a connection to Noldor do live in Rivendell.

Edit: In addition to the Ring of Power, several places are mentioned to have some kind of power depending on the people who live there: In this case, an Elven realm would have a distinctly 'Elvish' air. Of course, in the late Third Age, this might be likened to the end of a summer or a long, warm autumn. (Can't find the quote, but one of the characters compared Rivendell into an eternal autumn if Lórien is an eternal spring.)

And one more note on Lindon - as Gildor himself says, many of his folk had went across the sea, which implies that Lindon wasn't as densely populated at the end of the Third Age as it used to be at the end of the Second one. Yet, we do have evidence that there were some settlements there, as Cirdan continued to rule over Mithlond (the Grey Havens). Now, there isn't anything mentioned about Lindon in particular, so it can be only speculated how many Elves were left there - probably not much, and what was left was probably mostly the Sindarin folk, ruled by Cirdan. Given that Gildor is a Noldo, it would be more logical that he would prefer to spend more time among his closer Elven kin, i.e. the Noldor, rather than among the Sindar, especially after there are very few Noldor left in the Middle-Earth.

Regarding Gildor's knowledge of Lothlorien, there can be some arguments why, even if he knew about it, he may not really care travel there. There were some good notes on Celeborn's origin earlier in this thread, but regardless if he is from the Sindar (those ruled by Thingol but never went to Aman) or the Teleri, he is certainly not a Noldo. In turn, this would imply that his folk are also most probably Sindar and some other Dark Elves (like Laiquendi, the Green Elves of Ossiriand, or the Nandor, also located in Northern Mirkwood under Thranduil's rule). Thus, Gildor would not have much reason to go to Lorien, given that most of his kinsmen and friends are in Imladris.

By the way, I will digress a little bit. As it is generally believed that Eregion's exiles were moved to Rivendell, it will be interesting to muse a little bit what exactly they were. Since Celembrimbor was of high prominence, being a grandson of Feanor himself, it could be easily surmised that many of his Noldor followers were actually of Feanor's sons' folk. This would also explain why Celembrimbor didn't heed much to the advice of Lindon at the time when he was forging the Great Rings - after all, these were the people ruled by the other branch of the Noldor royal family, the second and third son of Finwe (Feanor being the first). So, there could have been some residual animosity left, as even after there was no reason to fight among each other (the Silmarils were long gone), I'd guess that there was not much love between the people ruled by Feanor's sons and those who followed Fingolfin and Finrod.

All this more or less explains why the major settlements of the Elves wouldn't have much to deal with each other, unless to fight against a common enemy (Sauron) ...

Originally Posted by Adanamir

By the way, I will digress a little bit. As it is generally believed that Eregion's exiles were moved to Rivendell, it will be interesting to muse a little bit what exactly they were. Since Celembrimbor was of high prominence, being a grandson of Feanor himself, it could be easily surmised that many of his Noldor followers were actually of Feanor's sons' folk. This would also explain why Celembrimbor didn't heed much to the advice of Lindon at the time when he was forging the Great Rings - after all, these were the people ruled by the other branch of the Noldor royal family, the second and third son of Finwe (Feanor being the first). So, there could have been some residual animosity left, as even after there was no reason to fight among each other (the Silmarils were long gone), I'd guess that there was not much love between the people ruled by Feanor's sons and those who followed Fingolfin and Finrod.

All this more or less explains why the major settlements of the Elves wouldn't have much to deal with each other, unless to fight against a common enemy (Sauron) ...

The only problem that I can see from that theory is the fact that Celebrimbor lived among Finrod's people, and actually broke relations with his father to stay in Nargothrond when Curufin and Celegorm were expelled from there by Finrod's nephew after their plots had been revealed. Celebrimbor chose to remain in Nargothrond, and to be allowed to do so, he must have had to been willing to accept Finrod's nephew as his lord, and as such could not have had animosities held toward the heirs of Fingolfin and Finarfin. So I don't think there would have been animosity held between Celebrimbor and those peoples.

Of course, that doesn't speak, necessarily, for those of Feanor's house, and it would make sense to say that after the War of Wrath, seeing as all the sons of Feanor were now gone, that the few who remained of those folk would naturally accept Celebrimbor as lord, being that he was the only heir of Feanor left on the other shores (as Maglor had disappeared) that Tolkien tells us about (as he mentioned in passing that other sons of Feanor were probably also married--Maglor being one of them, so it's possible they had un-named children along side those un-named wives, whether they remained in Valinor or followed their fathers).

I think there could have been a good deal of animosity still held between the survivors of the war of the folk of Feanor and the folk of Gil-galad and Cirdan. The sacking of the havens at Sirion was still very fresh in everyone's minds, Silmarils or no, and that would have been difficult to just forgive and forget. It might have been considered a good idea to just separate. On the other hand, Eregion wasn't settled until around SA 700; that's a long time to live amongst the other peoples in Lindon--plenty of time to finally put the old animosities to rest. And they had all fought together in the War of Wrath, so that too might have gone a long way to heal or at least begin healing disputes. Of course, it could be that they were naturally separated anyway, as Gil-galad ruled from Forlindon and Cirdan from Harlindon--perhaps in the Second Age they were already seperated. It will still seem, though, that all the remaining Noldor, no matter to which son of Finwe they belong, held Gil-galad as their king, including Celebrimbor and his people.

So I suppose the question that arises is what was the motivating factor for the settlement of Eregion in the first place? Being that it was so close to Moria and a ready supply of Mithril, and that the remaining Noldor were naturally craftsmen and smiths, it could simply be they settled there because they wanted to be nearer to their supply, and had nothing to do with animosities at all.

Also, there are several different versions of the founding of Eregion floating around, thanks to Tolkien. One story states that Celebrimbor settled it and that Galadriel and Celeborn chose to live there with him, another says they three co-ruled the place until Sauron came along and the forging of the power rings began, while another says that Galadriel and Celeborn settled it and that Celebrimbor went with them and usurped power after the forging of the power rings began.

In any case, Galadriel and Celeborn and their folk lived in Eregion, and as Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin and the sister of Finrod and certainly had no love at all for Feanor, I would think that there couldn't have still been animosities floating amongst her folk and the remains of Feanor's people, else they would not have chosen to live together in Eregion.

But that's just my two sense Is there any more information out there on the founding of Eregion and the reasons for it?

You do give some very valid points, but I still believe there is room to allow for my theory. Just to point out, that the Exiles didn't actually fight in the War of Wrath, at least according to the Silmarillion. It was explicitly pointed out that only hosts from Valinor and Men fought in the last battle against Morgoth, while the exiled elves were sidelined.

Anyways, my point is that at the beginning, Celembrimbor wasn't really an elf of very high status. Indeed, he was the son of Curufin and grandson of Feanor, but his prominence as a crafter came mostly after he settled in Eregion (though he was probably respected among Elves much before then). And as it often happens, with great skill often comes hubris. Thus, even if Celembrimbor was far more willing to heed to advice from the House of Finarfin at the beginning, it is not impossible that he believed he was powerful enough to do what he thinks is right a thousand years later. By the way, "animosity" is probably a stronger word than I intended, it's much more as if Celembrimbor wasn't willing to follow blindly unreasonable (in his view) concerns of some distant Elf lords.

Regarding Galadriel and her stay in Eregion - yes, there are different versions, thanks to the Professor, but one of them is also that Galadriel and Celembrimbor (who ruled over the land) were close friends, not impossible as Galadriel never had a position of power in the First Age. Anyways, the thing is that this remains only a theory, and any explanation is possible. After all, it remains unclear how many of Feanor's people remained in Middle-Earth, especially when they were given forgiveness to return to Valinor at the end of the First Age. The simplest explanation is indeed that Celembrimbor's desire for knowledge made him ignore the warnings from Lindon, and his heritage had nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by Adanamir

The simplest explanation is indeed that Celembrimbor's desire for knowledge made him ignore the warnings from Lindon, and his heritage had nothing to do with it.

That's the one I go with. While he had his suspicions, Gil-galad didn't go so far as to command that the Noldor should shun Annatar and so it wasn't as if Celebrimbor and the other Gwaith-i-Mirdain were defying their High King's will. Celebrimbor simply didn't heed the warnings because he'd been seduced by all the wondrous possibilities that Ring-lore offered. The physical distance between Eregion and Lindon would have helped, there, and the strong creative spirit in Eregion made it fertile ground for anything so new and interesting.

Originally Posted by Lothic

Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog.

Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria were both Maia and were of comparable strength. Gandalf did win, most definitely, but he was almost totally spent and lay near death for a while (and apparently had a near-death experience), but he did survive.

Balrogs were of varying strength. The Great Balrog of Moria was perhaps the oldest and most powerful.

Originally Posted by gradivus

Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria were both Maia and were of comparable strength. Gandalf did win, most definitely, but he was almost totally spent and lay near death for a while (and apparently had a near-death experience), but he did survive.

No, Tolkien confirmed that Gandalf did actually 'die', and was then sent back.

RE: Noldor and Lindon vs. Imladris

I only wanted to add that I have the impression that the western sea itself was a powerful pull on the Elves, and especially the Noldor. And as such, any Noldor that wanted to stay behind and live in/defend/enjoy Middle Earth might have found it impossible to do so in close proximity to the sea.

I can truly imagine Cirdan only remains out of the powerful sense of duty (Ensuring the safety of the port / 'last one out' sort of thing)

So then if you (a Noldor Elf) literally cannot bear to live near the sea (Lindon) without crossing over into the Undying Lands, your optimal residence would be Imladris (by default, although 'default' is a really unfair characterization )

No clear answer, but lends support as to why there MIGHT be more Noldo in Imladris vs. Lindon (though all this is conjecture IMO)

@Buddahspalm

That's what I'd suspect as well. Legolas just looked at the Sea and wanted to leave Middle-Earth.

However, Legolas was from the Sindar, or at least had strong Sindarin ancestry (given that there is no info on his mother), so the call to the West should apply to Cirdan's folk as well. I'd rather say that the difference was in the fact that Cirdan's people were predominantly born and raised at the seaside, so it wasn't such a big shock to them, compared to elves that had never seen the sea before.

I have a slightly different explanation for the disparity in population between Lindon and Imladris. After all, Imladris had always had a specific purpose, being settled as a safe heaven during the fight against Sauron towards the end of the Second Age. Thus, it was quite natural that it gathered quite a few prominent elves, and mostly Noldor, who had always had a more active role in fighting Morgoth and later Sauron. In the Third Age, this goal was preserved, given that Elrond very well knew that Sauron was not destroyed permanently, as long as the One Ring remained intact. Imladris took part in saving the remnants of Arnor after the war against Angmar ended (TA 1975), and provided safe haven to the Dunedain ever since.

This sense of purpose most probably helped to keep more Noldor there than in Lindon, where High King Gil-Galad was dead, along with many others who fell at Dagorlad and later during the siege of Barad-Dur. Thus, due to grief or no purpose of staying in Middle Earth, many Noldor left Lindon for the sea, and so Lindon may have been quite sparsely populated at the end of the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Adanamir

In the Third Age, this goal was preserved, given that Elrond very well knew that Sauron was not destroyed permanently, as long as the One Ring remained intact.

Nobody actually knew that for a fact, although it became an obvious inference once Sauron was known to have returned in the Third Age.

Imladris took part in saving the remnants of Arnor after the war against Angmar ended (TA 1975), and provided safe haven to the Dunedain ever since.

Only in passing; the Northern Dunedain didn't actually live there, they had a 'fastness' of their own somewhere else. Aragorn and his mother had been very much an exception.

Thus, due to grief or no purpose of staying in Middle Earth, many Noldor left Lindon for the sea, and so Lindon may have been quite sparsely populated at the end of the Third Age.

Most of Lindon had apparently been abandoned, and allowed to go back to nature - the remaining population had become concentrated along the coast near the Havens. It'd make for some very scenic ruins, which for once wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) be full of nasties

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Most of Lindon had apparently been abandoned, and allowed to go back to nature - the remaining population had become concentrated along the coast near the Havens. It'd make for some very scenic ruins, which for once wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) be full of nasties

Much of Lindon had never left its natural state. In typical real-life places you have a concentration of the population in towns and cities--this was especially true before mass transportation--with wilderness in the surrounding areas. I imagine that Elven settlements were not too different than human settlements in this regard. I can't ever recall reading anything about Elven farms or homesteads, and don't know whether they existed or not. The Sindar were great sailors, so we can guess that they may have derived at least some of their food from the sea through fishing.

Since Lindon did not play an important role in the events of TA 3018-3019, other than being a point of embarkment for the Undying Lands at the end of LOTR, Tolkien didn't leave us with much information about for this time period. Most of we may say about it is speculation, and, in my opinion, should be stated as such rather than stated dogmatically.

In LOTR Tolkien was very clear that the time of the Elves was soon coming to the end. We also know that most of the Elves who had not been slain during the many wars throughout the millenia had already left Middle-earth, and others, like Gildor and his company, were merely biding their time before they, too, would leave. However, we also know that some Elves were determined to stay in Middle-earth until they faded.

Those who are interested in this topic may wish to read 'Why did the Elves Leave Middle-earth' by noted Tolkien scholar, Michael Martinez.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Much of Lindon had never left its natural state. In typical real-life places you have a concentration of the population in towns and cities--this was especially true before mass transportation--with wilderness in the surrounding areas.

Hang on, a couple of things there. First off, in any pre-industrial society the overwhelming majority of people live on the land, not in towns and cities. Secondly, there's a big difference between areas that have hardly anyone living there and true wilderness; even a few people can start to make a difference. When there were a lot of Elves there Lindon wouldn't have been in its natural state at all, no country that's got people living there ever is if it's anything more than just a handful and that's allowing for the idea of Elves being better at living in harmony with nature; they'd still have to extract resources from the land, grow crops, keep animals (if they wanted wool to weave, for instance), manage the woodlands (they'd need a steady supply of both wood and charcoal, for example), quarry for stone and metal ores, dig for clay so they could make pottery, all that long list of things you need to do in order to be both well fed and have a sophisticated material culture. My point was that most of the place had chance to go back to something like a natural state since it had been largely abandoned for a few thousand years.