Thread: Questions Over Lore

"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could very well be a reference to Narya, the Elven-ring that Círdan entrusted to Gandalf. It was known as the Ring of Fire and gave its wielder the power to endure evil, and to stand in the face of fear.

Originally Posted by brianvencill

"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could very well be a reference to Narya, the Elven-ring that Círdan entrusted to Gandalf. It was known as the Ring of Fire and gave its wielder the power to endure evil, and to stand in the face of fear.

yes, this is the general assumption of what tolkien was hinting at

I've seen Udun/Utumno translated as Hell or Hades before. No clue where it was right now, I'll post a link if I find one. I know it was pre-Internet, though, so it's been quite some time, and was in a book.

/old

Cool thread.

Originally Posted by Ironcrown

I always thought the Secret Fire refered to ring Narya.

No, the Secret Fire definitely does not refer to Narya. Silverblade's statement...

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

In that quote, Secret Fire is obviously the Flame Imperishable, which gave life to all the Children of Illuvatar.

...is what most Tolkien scholars believe to be accurate, or close to it.

So Ilúvatar said to [the Ainur]: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you...And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme...'

Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. (author). Tolkien, Christopher (editor). 'Ainulindalë'. The Silmarillion.

Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

Source: Tolkien. 'Valaquenta'. Op. cit..

I'm glad people are starting to pose their own questions on here, because I'm actually running out :P!

One thing that I've always wondered is what happens to Legolas and Gimli. I didn't think Legolas sailed west, instead I thought him and Gimli took a tour of middle earth together. Gimli would show him the beauty under the earth in the Glittering Caverns, and Legolas would show Gimli the beauty of Fangorn.... Right?

Originally Posted by amien

I'm glad people are starting to pose their own questions on here, because I'm actually running out :P!

One thing that I've always wondered is what happens to Legolas and Gimli. I didn't think Legolas sailed west, instead I thought him and Gimli took a tour of middle earth together. Gimli would show him the beauty under the earth in the Glittering Caverns, and Legolas would show Gimli the beauty of Fangorn.... Right?

they both remained good friends and did that tour...also gimli became the first lord of the glittering caves and set up a colony there
they also departed middle earth together

Originally Posted by brianvencill

"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could very well be a reference to Narya, the Elven-ring that Círdan entrusted to Gandalf. It was known as the Ring of Fire and gave its wielder the power to endure evil, and to stand in the face of fear.

Yes, that was actually my first thought.....that Narya could be the Flame of Anor.....

But for two reasons I couldnt make up my mind for sure.....first, Narya, alongwith the two other elven rings is supposed to be kept extremely secret......from EVERYONE....Elrond even refuses to talk about it inside Rivendell where no one could possibly overhear.....let alone the enemy.....then why would Gandalf announce the fact that he's wielding Narya to one of the most powerful evil creature of that time.....I doubt if he actually forsaw falling with the Balrog and fighting him to death.....so if Gandalf was going to think of walking out of there without killing the Balrog, he wouldnt give away the ring's identity, would he?

and secondly, why would Narya be called flame of "anor"?.....I mean ok, Ring of Fire, Flame of something.....makes sense.....but still dont see sufficent relation between Narya and the Sun....

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

and secondly, why would Narya be called flame of "anor"?.....I mean ok, Ring of Fire, Flame of something.....makes sense.....but still dont see sufficent relation between Narya and the Sun....

The Ring of Fire wasn't a weapon: the 'fire' was its ability to rekindle hope and courage. As Gandalf wields both light and fire against the Enemy, I imagine that he was referring to some aspect of his own power.

Originally Posted by richsabre

they both remained good friends and did that tour...also gimli became the first lord of the glittering caves and set up a colony there
they also departed middle earth together

I didn't think the Dwarves were allowed to sail to Aman?

Originally Posted by amien

I didn't think the Dwarves were allowed to sail to Aman?

They werent....

But because of his very close friendship with Legolas, as well as having earned the favor of Galadriel, its supposed that she being a highly important elf, gained the permission for him to sail with Legolas.....

Originally Posted by amien

I didn't think Legolas sailed west, instead I thought him and Gimli took a tour of middle earth together.

Tolkien wrote it in such a way that it is not definite, but it is generally believed that after Aragorn's death Legolas and Gimli sailed to Aman:

Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf...But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk'. The Lord of the Rings.

Naturally, neither Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo, nor Sam would attain immortality by going to the Undying Lands. They would still die a natural death.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

They werent....

But because of his very close friendship with Legolas, as well as having earned the favor of Galadriel, its supposed that she being a highly important elf, gained the permission for him to sail with Legolas.....

Can you imagine the "discussions" with Aule? I bet there wasn't a full keg to be found in all of Aman! LOL!

Guesswork on Udûn: the ^ has the same meaning as ´ when translitterating Elvish - that is, a long vowel. U- is negation. Therefore, as dún- is west, Udûn has a possible translation of "un-west" - the opposite of the West. Angband, in turn, is translated as "iron prison" and is often called "Hells of Iron". In some very oldest manuscripts where the Valar were still gods, Angband was a very literal Hell.

Of course, in "the Flame of Udûn" the reference is both to Utumno and as Morgoth being the Enemy of the Valar. The Flame of Anor is discussed briefly in http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/flameofanor.html with the same conclusions that popped up here. It might also be just a rhetoric device, referring to the Balrog's kindred spirit (Ariel, guardian of the Sun) standing against the darkness.

As for mortals in the Undying Land, my understanding is that instead of immortality, they would die faster (similar effect is hinted at Lúthien's death when carrying the Silmaril as a mortal).

Originally Posted by Ironcrown

Can you imagine the "discussions" with Aule? I bet there wasn't a full keg to be found in all of Aman! LOL!

Hahaha! That would be hillarious indeed.

So if your race wasn't immortal, you wouldn't become immortal from living in Aman, under the light of the Valar?

Also, what was the purpose of Galadriel giving Gimli 3 strands of her hair? Did it do anything for him, or was he just mesmerized by her beauty?

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

Guesswork on Udûn: the ^ has the same meaning as ´ when translitterating Elvish - that is, a long vowel. U- is negation. Therefore, as dún- is west, Udûn has a possible translation of "un-west" - the opposite of the West.

There's no need for wild speculations, "union" is not the opposite of "ion". Udûn comes from Utumno, as far as I know there is no abstract concept of West that would make un-west a viable thing. Udûn is also the name of the valley right behind the Black Gate but surely that's not the place where the balrog is supposed to be from.

Originally Posted by amien

Also, what was the purpose of Galadriel giving Gimli 3 strands of her hair? Did it do anything for him, or was he just mesmerized by her beauty?

Asking for a lady's favour so courteously was a very chivalrous thing to do. There was a girlish streak to Galadriel (Sam mentions that later) and I imagine she was flattered, and touched to hear such words coming from a Dwarf, of all people. Plus he was, of course, going into great peril on behalf of all of them and to bear her token with him would lend him courage, I imagine.

As for Gimli, yes, he'd been smitten by her beauty. But the purpose was as he said, just a keepsake, that if he survived to return home would be set in crystal and become an heirloom of his house, and a pledge of good will between Dwarves and Elves forever after. The value was symbolic, as such things are.

Galadriel's hair didn't have any magical properties, though it was said to have been extremely beautiful--it seemed to catch the light of the two trees in the tresses and was the inspiration behind Feanor's creation of the silmarils.

But no, the 3 strands she gave Gimli had no magical properties--they were simply given to him because he asked them as a memorial to her beauty in Middle Earth. He said he was going to encase them in crystal.

what I find highly ironic on that subject was the fact that she gave Gimli 3 of her hairs but refused to give a single hair to Feanor, her uncle

Originally Posted by AllySanders

what I find highly ironic on that subject was the fact that she gave Gimli 3 of her hairs but refused to give a single hair to Feanor, her uncle

That is quite funny, maybe after all those years, Galadriel wasn't so straight laced!

So to get this straight, the Istari were a type of Maiar who were weaker than Maiar because they were only mortal shells on Middle Earth with limits on their real power.... right?

According to the Silmarillion, if I understand it correctly, Melkor was evil from the start and created evil later on by causing discord and cacophony that resulted in things like the Balrogs and more powerful beings like Ungoliant?

Originally Posted by amien

That is quite funny, maybe after all those years, Galadriel wasn't so straight laced!

So to get this straight, the Istari were a type of Maiar who were weaker than Maiar because they were only mortal shells on Middle Earth with limits on their real power.... right?

Not really a 'type', just the collective word for those guys in Middle-earth. They were stuck with looking like spry old men, yes but they were only enjoined not to use their real power, not limited as such. The plan wasn't to oppose Sauron's power directly with their own, so striding around blowing stuff up would have been so not on-mission unless they had no other choice. You can tell that Gandalf hadn't been weakened because he defeated the Balrog, another Maia and one which wasn't shy about using its power, so his power was obviously there when he needed it.

According to the Silmarillion, if I understand it correctly, Melkor was evil from the start and created evil later on by causing discord and cacophony that resulted in things like the Balrogs and more powerful beings like Ungoliant?

Melkor was proud and jealous; that led him to desire Iluvatar's power of creation for himself, as he couldn't accept that he, mightiest of the Valar as he then was, should be denied anything. That was what led him to fill the Great Music with discord, and to keep vandalizing the world while the other Valar were trying to make it a thing of beauty, and eventually to start doing things that were truly evil rather than just bad.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

There's no need for wild speculations, "union" is not the opposite of "ion". Udûn comes from Utumno, as far as I know there is no abstract concept of West that would make un-west a viable thing. Udûn is also the name of the valley right behind the Black Gate but surely that's not the place where the balrog is supposed to be from.

The Uttermost West (Aman) is not an abstract concept in-universe, as it's there (though only Elves can get there, with a few exceptions). However, etymologically (in-universe) it just seems to be a coincidence, even if many names do have meanings - after all, one of the ways I understand the Professor worked was by first figuring out words and then meanings or significance (though in LotR, many words are just recycled from his other works). Apparently, the actual root (TUB-) has the meaning of "deep valley" (which well might be even more fitting for the LotR Udûn, Utumno might be emphasizing the "deep" part).

Originally Posted by amien

So to get this straight, the Istari were a type of Maiar who were weaker than Maiar because they were only mortal shells on Middle Earth with limits on their real power.... right?

not weaker- balrogs were maiar too, and gandalf cast durins bane down, also if gandalf before being sent back could do it, then i reckon so could saruman

also they were agents of secrecy, just like gandalf is unwilling to reveal himself as the white to sauron until the time is right

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

The Uttermost West (Aman) is not an abstract concept in-universe …

Which is why I said the term un-west doesn't make sense in-universe. The concrete opposite of Aman would thus be the land in the far East where the Gates of Morning? stood. Also remember that Elves (and thus Sindarin) existed long before the Sun. They might not have had a word for west back then. And another thing is that Utumno itself is even older than Valinor.

Originally Posted by richsabre

not weaker- balrogs were maiar too, and gandalf cast durins bane down, also if gandalf before being sent back could do it, then i reckon so could saruman

Logically, yes, because originally Saruman was presumably the strongest of them. However, he'd frittered away most of his power on making things that were either useless (like his robe of many colours) or evil. It's remarked that Saruman's wizardry seemed to have been going downhill lately - that's why he can't do anything much about the Ents, and is seen to rely on some sort of machinery rather than magic. He'd largely traded one for the other, and was the poorer for it. Presumably he'd been trying to do too much too quickly and had overtaxed himself, because Sauron never seemed to run out of steam like that despite employing similar methods (which Saruman was just copying). But if you notice, Sauron always took a long, long time making plans and gathering his strength. He hadn't been planning to attack the Free Peoples so soon (he'd wanted to get even more Men up from the East and South and crush all opposition by weight of numbers), but his hand had been forced.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Logically, yes, because originally Saruman was presumably the strongest of them. However, he'd frittered away most of his power on making things that were either useless (like his robe of many colours) or evil. It's remarked that Saruman's wizardry seemed to have been going downhill lately - that's why he can't do anything much about the Ents, and is seen to rely on some sort of machinery rather than magic. He'd largely traded one for the other, and was the poorer for it. Presumably he'd been trying to do too much too quickly and had overtaxed himself, because Sauron never seemed to run out of steam like that despite employing similar methods (which Saruman was just copying). But if you notice, Sauron always took a long, long time making plans and gathering his strength. He hadn't been planning to attack the Free Peoples so soon (he'd wanted to get even more Men up from the East and South and crush all opposition by weight of numbers), but his hand had been forced.

yes, agreed, however i was thinking more along the lines of saruman of the white, before his corruption, i found this thought interesting when i posted it, i started a thread on another lore forum discussing it, as i partly think he could, however as well as i can remember we never see saruman use his magic like gandalf, his powers are more of creation, machinery and domination of the mind, his tongue is his weapon, so perhaps he could have talked the balrog out of it? (JOKE!!!)

Originally Posted by richsabre

however as well as i can remember we never see saruman use his magic like gandalf, his powers are more of creation, machinery and domination of the mind

The thing is, we never see Saruman given cause to start hurling magic about until later, when his wizardry had already waned. Tolkien avoided having too much magic in the books: Gandalf's exploits are typically told of in retrospect, so he doesn't make the rest of the Fellowship look superfluous.

The reason Saruman was so much into making things is that he'd been one of Aulë's attendant Maiar (just as Sauron had once been) and so liked to tinker.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The reason Saruman was so much into making things is that he'd been one of Aulë's attendant Maiar (just as Sauron had once been) and so liked to tinker.

I never even thought of that! I think its really neat how things like tie in together :P

Does anyone know why Durin's Bane was the last of the Balrogs? I couldn't find anything on the Wiki that explains it. Also, just how strong do you guys think it would have been, compared to the others? Grothmog was supposed to be the strongest, but wasn't he ultimately killed by an Elf?

Originally Posted by amien

I never even thought of that! I think its really neat how things like tie in together :P

Does anyone know why Durin's Bane was the last of the Balrogs? I couldn't find anything on the Wiki that explains it. Also, just how strong do you guys think it would have been, compared to the others? Grothmog was supposed to be the strongest, but wasn't he ultimately killed by an Elf?

i believe it survived the 1st age by hiding under the mountains- though dont qoute me on that
also i see nothing to point that it was a balrog of superior significance- it just happened to be a majorly powerful being left over in the third age
remember that in the third age being such as balrogs and smaug were creatures of legend- smaug and durins bane were all that were left- apart from the mysterious wild were worms of thelast desert which we hear bilbo say in the hobbit

I think the Balrog slaying by elves he is referring to is in the Fall of Gondolin. both Echthelion and Glorfindel slew Balrogs, although both lost their own life in the process. ( although if i recall, Echthelion slew several Balrogs before battling Gothmog, the head Balrog). this is without looking up those tales.

And Durin's Bane may not be "the last of the Balrogs". At the end of the first age, when the HOst of Valinor overthrew Morgoth, they destroyed Angbad, but the book specificallly says, they did not kill every creature of Morgoth, nor explore every deep crevasse. The eventually Buried many cratures of Morgoth so deep they would never be seen again.

But the dwarves "delved too deeply" in thier lust for mithril and uncovered a Balrog.

Originally Posted by Galadh

I think the Balrog slaying by elves he is referring to is in the Fall of Gondolin. both Echthelion and Glorfindel slew Balrogs, although both lost their own life in the process. ( although if i recall, Echthelion slew several Balrogs before battling Gothmog, the head Balrog). this is without looking up those tales.

And Durin's Bane may not be "the last of the Balrogs". At the end of the first age, when the HOst of Valinor overthrew Morgoth, they destroyed Angbad, but the book specificallly says, they did not kill every creature of Morgoth, nor explore every deep crevasse. The eventually Buried many cratures of Morgoth so deep they would never be seen again.

But the dwarves "delved too deeply" in thier lust for mithril and uncovered a Balrog.

ahh i had forgotten that, i was thinking more along the lines of the last that are ever seen ie we never hear of another dragon and we never hear of another balrog- though i do wonder how many balrogs and other fell creatures lay in wait, to be uncovered? like the nameless creatures

Originally Posted by Galadh

I think the Balrog slaying by elves he is referring to is in the Fall of Gondolin. both Echthelion and Glorfindel slew Balrogs, although both lost their own life in the process. ( although if i recall, Echthelion slew several Balrogs before battling Gothmog, the head Balrog). this is without looking up those tales.

The Fall of Gondolin was a very, very early work and between the writing of that and LOTR whole decades had passed. During that time, Tolkien's ideas changed and LOTR's Balrog is different, vastly more powerful and a lot harder to kill. The number of Balrogs also shrank dramatically, down to single figures. It's a consequence of the idea of them being Maiar.

And Durin's Bane may not be "the last of the Balrogs". At the end of the first age, when the HOst of Valinor overthrew Morgoth, they destroyed Angbad, but the book specificallly says, they did not kill every creature of Morgoth, nor explore every deep crevasse. The eventually Buried many cratures of Morgoth so deep they would never be seen again.

Not until the end of the world, at least.

I think I read somewhere that the Fall of Gondolin was perhaps the first thing Tolkien ever wrote of the Middle Earth world, penned sometime during WWI in its first incarnation.

And while I agree that Balrogs became more powerful, the rendition of the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales states that prior to that day no elf had ever slain a Balrog (I think I'm recalling that right; maybe it was slaying one without dying) and that the folk of the Hammer of Wrath killed many ere they themselves were surrounded and slaughtered.

Originally Posted by Mulkfather

I think I read somewhere that the Fall of Gondolin was perhaps the first thing Tolkien ever wrote of the Middle Earth world, penned sometime during WWI in its first incarnation.

Yep. It was while he was back in England, recovering from an illness he'd contracted while on the Western Front.

And while I agree that Balrogs became more powerful, the rendition of the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales states that prior to that day no elf had ever slain a Balrog (I think I'm recalling that right; maybe it was slaying one without dying) and that the folk of the Hammer of Wrath killed many ere they themselves were surrounded and slaughtered.

Can you seriously imagine any amount of Elves slaying 'many' Maiar, especially fiery ones that (unlike Sauron) were downright lethal in a fight? (Sauron being more the crafty sorcerer type). Look how long it takes Gandalf to defeat the Balrog in LOTR - 'epic' doesn't do that fight justice. He could only do that because he was a Maia himself.

Remember, the Balrog of Moria was too much for a whole city of Dwarves to handle. Without a doubt, LOTR's Balrog was something far more terrible than the ones in TFoG.

The counter argument is that Echtelion defeated Gothmog effectively solo, which account remained even after Balrogs had been strengthened to Maiar level, that Glorfindel of Gondolin also defeated a Balrog solo (both perishing in the attempt), and therefore a large group of elves, especially mighty in battle as the Hammer of Wrath people were, could have done a bit of damage before they died.

Look, I'm not saying Balrogs are weak. I'm saying that even in the weaker beginning they were very strong, and that there is canonical support for a non-Maia being able to defeat a Balrog, generally speaking. Therefore, the greatest warriors probably can take one on in single combat and win, though they will likely lose their lives in the fight. That's all.

a point that has just occured to me- which isnt meant to change the above, its just a thought-

gandalf chose to destroy the bridge instead of kill it outright-fair enough he may have thought that the drop could have killed it, but if he was confident of beating it, being a maiar of all good, im guessing he would have taken the chance to rid the world of it-
but no, he destroys its chance of following, now maybe he was just in a hurry to get out of moria- who wouldnt be, but i think it is at least an indicator that he wasnt confident at taking it down hand to hand/power to power- especially given that he was 'already weary' (an outcome we all know of course that he can indeed kill it in the end)

Originally Posted by Mulkfather

The counter argument is that Echtelion defeated Gothmog effectively solo, which account remained even after Balrogs had been strengthened to Maiar level, that Glorfindel of Gondolin also defeated a Balrog solo (both perishing in the attempt), and therefore a large group of elves, especially mighty in battle as the Hammer of Wrath people were, could have done a bit of damage before they died.

Neither Balrog was defeated by force of arms alone, so no. Gothmog and Ecthelion drowned together in the deep waters of the Fountain; Glorfindel and his Balrog died together when they fell from the pinnacle they were fighting on into the abyss below.

There is no real counter-argument because Christopher Tolkien confirms in HoME that the early conception of Balrogs was that of something less strong, far more numerous, and far more easily destroyed. The idea of 'many' Balrogs being slain is entirely incompatible with the later idea of there only ever having been a few of them!

I think it's telling that old man Tolkien never managed to rewrite The Fall of Gondolin.

Additionally, Gandalf's task wasn't to answer to force with force, but rather to act as an advisor to the Free Peoples. He mentioned being already tired, but, apparently, could in a pitch muster enough strength to fight the Balrog. (Might be some fine print on the whole wizard contract.) As for the Balrog kills by the two Gondolindrim lords, what Radhruin mentioned. (I would also assume that the pure spring of the fountain of Gondolin helped Ecthelion a good bit - but this isn't exactly backed by anything in writing.)

I think there is at least three somewhat-complete Fall of Gondolin manuscripts (but I'd need to check that) plus possibly one poem. The first one has Balrogs and dragons dying in droves, and successive rewrites approach the version in published in the Silmarillion.

A funny note on weapons: Glamdring was used by Turgon only twice in battle - in Nirnaeth and then in Gondolin. Yet Orcs (ahem, goblins) in the Hobbit immediately recognized it! Though it might be that the sword was taken from Gondolin after its destruction and thus saw use later on by someone else, before it was eventually lost to the trolls. (Or then we just need to apply a good dose of "don't look at this too closely".)

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

A funny note on weapons: Glamdring was used by Turgon only twice in battle - in Nirnaeth and then in Gondolin. Yet Orcs (ahem, goblins) in the Hobbit immediately recognized it! Though it might be that the sword was taken from Gondolin after its destruction and thus saw use later on by someone else, before it was eventually lost to the trolls. (Or then we just need to apply a good dose of "don't look at this too closely".)

Hey, Goblins are not idiots >.< They can also be learned in what all battles their ancestors fought in. It was said that the memory of Azanulbizar causes all Orcs to shudder and Dwarves to weep. Most of the Orcs were annihilated in the battle, so this clearly implies that their fear comes from the tales they heard of the battle.

Or maybe the Trolls stole that loot from the Misty Mountains and the Goblins simply feared the sword because of the great power it showed when it was in their possession (ie they possessed it, not that they used it in battle)

Reading this thread has caused me to come up with a question regarding balrogs and the nazgul. Would the nazgul be considered equivalent in strength to a balrog or would they be somewhat lesser? The reason I ask is that in LotR Glorfindel was clearly able to face off several nazgul at once at the Last Bridge. Also, Glorfindel of Gondolin defeated a balrog, albeit in a different age. Unless nazgul are weaker than balrogs one could assume that Glorfindel could take on a balrog in the 3rd age. Would the balrog in Moria be considered exceptional (even to the point of being stronger than Gothmog)?

Originally Posted by Dunford

Reading this thread has caused me to come up with a question regarding balrogs and the nazgul. Would the nazgul be considered equivalent in strength to a balrog or would they be somewhat lesser? The reason I ask is that in LotR Glorfindel was clearly able to face off several nazgul at once at the Last Bridge. Also, Glorfindel of Gondolin defeated a balrog, albeit in a different age. Unless nazgul are weaker than balrogs one could assume that Glorfindel could take on a balrog in the 3rd age. Would the balrog in Moria be considered exceptional (even to the point of being stronger than Gothmog)?

Define strength.
There are three kinds of strengths over here:

Physical and Psychological: Physically, a Balrog is definitely stronger. No exceptions. Psychologically, a Balrog causes the same amount, if not a higher, of fear as the Nazgul, in the hearts of the Free Peoples. The only Nazgul who would come even close to a Balrog in these strengths is the Witch-King.

Magical: A Balrog clearly defeats all the Nazgul combined here. That is, excluding the Witch-King. The Witch-king's spells aided Grond to break one of the strongest gates in Middle-Earth. The Witch-King's magical powers come close to a Balrog's, but since Balrogs are maiar, they are stronger in ths aspect too.

Third: A Blarog, though strong, would actually be a disadvantage if in an army. Sauron did not have the strength of will of Morgoth, so he definitely couldn't have controlled the Balrogs. His own armies would have fled, and in the end it would be a few Balrogs in the Battlefield.

A Nazgul, on the other hand, would be one of the best captains of an army, and in this aspect, a Nazgul would definitely be deadlier.


Durin's Bane was not, and could never be, as strong as Gothmog. We compare Gothmog's strength to Sauron, for Eru's sake. Gothmog was also a brilliant captain. Durin's bane was stronger than most balrogs, since a Balrog's power increases with time, so Glorfindel couldn't hope to beat him.
On the other hand, not even Gandalf could beat Gothmog. It took the most skilled Elf in arms (Ecthelion) to beat Gothmog, and even he didn't survive the fight.

Though, I don't mean that Balrogs were unable to lead armies. In the Fall of Gondolin, Balrog Captains led the armies of Morgoth. But this is the Great Enemy we are talking about. Sauron could not challenge even Denethor's will. Morgoth could control the many wills and whatnot of Arda. In fact, according to the book, everything evil is Morgoth's will.

Will is an extremely important aspect in Middle-Earth. The reason why the army of Aragorn survived the Battle of Morannon was that Sauron's will was diminished. Without his will, the Orcs, Trolls, etc. were mindless apes.