Thread: Questions Over Lore

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

Thats it.... for now I'm sure more will come, though so subscribe!

New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

My personal thoughts are that Gandalf didn't just want to be the "hero". He wasn't in Middle Earth to save it himself, he was there to guide the free peoples to victory. That's why he didn't "take on" anything in particular himself, but instead rallied the troops.

I'd guess that Saruman beats Gandalf in FotR because Saruman has allied with Sauron which gives him confidence/strength. However Sauron is definitely "stronger" than Gandalf.

I'm not sure which "elven king" you are talking about, I didn't think that many Balrogs died, and the Balrogs were essentially corrupted Maiar so (roughly) on an even level with Gandalf.

Originally Posted by someenigma

I'm not sure which "elven king" you are talking about, I didn't think that many Balrogs died, and the Balrogs were essentially corrupted Maiar so (roughly) on an even level with Gandalf.

I had thought that the Balrogs were demons morgoth either "Found" or created?

I also thought that each Valar only had a few Maiar each (There are only 5 wizards), were there many of them?

I don't know the Elven King's name, but I want to say his daughter was taken prisoner or something happened to his kin by Morgoth, he made a valiant last stand at the gates of Angband and I think the King was even able to wound Morgoth. Although he very well might have been cutting through dragons instead of Balrogs, I just remember being astounded at his strength after reading it.

The wizards al came in the same time to Middle-Earth and gandalf lost the battle because then he was still Gandalf the Grey but later he is more powerful. And the lost to the Witch King was just because witch king is more powerful than him!

Originally Posted by jakobjaks

The wizards al came in the same time to Middle-Earth and gandalf lost the battle because then he was still Gandalf the Grey but later he is more powerful. And the lost to the Witch King was just because witch king is more powerful than him!

That's my question, Gandalf is Maiar to the most powerful Valar, even if he "The Grey".
And no, the Witch King was just a corrupted man from a fraction of power from Sauron. Gandalf was something closer to an angel so he was extremely powerful. Gandalf would have turned him into a paper weight, which is why the two never meet in the books. That's why they also took that scene out of the extended version of RotK.

Take what I say with a grain of salt...it's been a while for me too...

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria?

Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog...I'm thinking Gandalf was so spent after the fall and in being such close proximity to a foe of such immense physical strength that he just didn't have the strength to carry on

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

I think it's more to do with WHAT you are. And the 'whats' are usually immortal or extremely long lived.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

I always thought that Saruman was Gandalf's senior in all things...hence a more powerful wizard.

Originally Posted by Lothic

Take what I say with a grain of salt...it's been a while for me too...



Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog...I'm thinking Gandalf was so spent after the fall and in being such close proximity to a foe of such immense physical strength that he just didn't have the strength to carry on



I think it's more to do with WHAT you are. And the 'whats' are usually immortal or extremely long lived.



I always thought that Saruman was Gandalf's senior in all things...hence a more powerful wizard.

Thanks for clearing that up! Not even wizards can make for a soft landing after falling many many leagues :P

All it ever calls Sauron is that he was one of Morgoths lieutenant, I think actually his primary Lieutenant, but that would definitely make sense. I always thought that the Maiars' power were directly related to their "boss". and Morgoth was extremely powerful.

Sauron started out as a Maia of Aule, as was Saruman.

The Balrogs were corrupted Maia as well.

Saruman was the Chief of the Istari (Wizards), even Gandalf states this.

Originally Posted by amien

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria?

Huh? He defeats the Balrog, although he himself is practically defeated in the effort. According to the lotr wiki, Tolkien's son says there are never more than seven balrog.

A couple of the coolest parts of this game are seeing the results of that battle in a couple locations of Moria.

It also says Gandalf is a Maiar chosen by the Valar to aid people of Middle Earth.

Balrog were Maiar seduced by Morgroth. Meanwhile Morgroth was apparently the mightiest of the Ainur. Considering 14 Valar were opposing him, it seems he was mighty indeed.

BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Define power. Sauron as the lieutenant of Morgroth, had been there longer, build up power longer, had a more powerful leader. Gandalf and Radaghast and Saruman and the others were not sent to directly confront Sauron, a pointless endeavor as the races would then be powerless against future foes/uprisings/returns. They were sent to shepherd the races in their own endeavors to grow and flourish and turn aside the tide of evil. Meanwhile, they were all out of their element, cast in corporeal bodies, in a foreign world, with limited tools, whereas Sauron had been amassing and exploiting power for a long time.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR?

What makes you believe Saruman is more powerful? They have different powers/roles. Saruman's strength is his influence with words and guile. He was sent as the chief of the five Istari, and had studied Sauron more. Apparently Saruman's name means "man of skill".

How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Uruk-hai

They are orcs on steroids, and orcs are a corruption of elves.

BTW, have you heard of the LotR wiki? http://lotr.wikia.com ;-)



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by amien

I don't know the Elven King's name, but I want to say his daughter was taken prisoner or something happened to his kin by Morgoth, he made a valiant last stand at the gates of Angband and I think the King was even able to wound Morgoth.

The Elven King you're thinking of is Fingolfin. His daughter (Aredhel) had been dead for over a century at the time, so it had nothing to do with her, rather Fingolfin's rage and despair was triggered by the losses the Elves suffered in the Battle of Sudden Flame, which included his nephews, Aegnor and Angrod.

I always thought Gandalf was pretty gimp in terms of battle power, so he didnt take on 1 on 1 Saurun or Saruman and was struggling eith the balrog (and maybe teh witch king? I dont remember that from the books). His strength was as a stretegist, pulling all the strings and making sure people were at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

The Wizards were indeed powerful but they were forbidden from using their powers directly. They were sent to help, not to fight Sauron (which might have worked but the last time Valar waged war a good chunk of the continent sunk under the sea, they were not going to risk it again; plus it wouldn't help the people if you do everything for them).

It's worth mentioning that the Wizards are not some subspecies of Maiar, they were regular Maiar chosen by the Valar and then they've become Wizards, which is the name others gave them.

My understanding was the 5 wizards were sent to guide and motivate the free people of Middle Earth against Sauron. They were to do so without using force or overpowering people (so nerfed in a way). Saruman broke the rules when he tried to take dominion over men and had his power taken from him. Each wizard was a fraction of their true power as a Miar, the last time the valar got to heavily involved half the world sank into the ocean and they decided to not directly be involved again so sent the wizards as stated above.
The balrog was totally struck down while only Gandalf's mortal frame was broken.

As for which of the Istari(Maiar) belonged to which Valar - Saruman (and also Sauron's) Valar was Aule the Smith.

Gandalf was of Nienna, the Vala of Mercy.
and Radagast was of Yavanna, the Vala of Nature and animals.
Im not sure of the Blue Wizards but i think one of them at least was Manwe's.

Originally Posted by SuaronTehMighty

I always thought Gandalf was pretty gimp in terms of battle power, so he didnt take on 1 on 1 Saurun or Saruman and was struggling eith the balrog (and maybe teh witch king? I dont remember that from the books). His strength was as a stretegist, pulling all the strings and making sure people were at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

Gandalf, aka Olorin as his name was when he was a Maia, was the wisest Maia in the order of Manwe.....when Sauron spread his dominion over Middle Earth, 5 Maia were selected to gather the free people of middle earth together and rally and guide them against Sauron....BUT under one specific condition....they were not to engage Sauron directly in a battle of power.....under no circumstances.....and this is because, in earlier Ages when the Valar directly interfered in the matters of mortals, some really bad incidents happened.....so the Valar no longer want to get involved directly.....otherwise it wouldve taken Tulkas or any Vala just about a minute to come to Middle Earth, whup Sauron's butt and destroy him.....but they dint want to do it....But even despite that, they did want to help the free people's against Sauron.....hence the 5 Istari were sent to Middle Earth.....and amongst them Gandalf was the most unwilling one, he considered his skill mostly in wisdom than anything else.....

to the OP :

Balrogs are Maiar who were servants of Morgoth, just as Sauron was....so they were as strong as Gandalf if not more....hence the almost close fight between Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria in which Gandalf died because of a DoT after he defeated the Balrog

And as you say Gandalf was of the order of Manwe, leader of the valar, true.....but you forget that Sauron, was the servant of Morgoth, aka Melkor, the most powerful of the Ainur, who fought 14 Vala.....hence Sauron is bound to be more powerful.....

Also the elven king you mentioned, Fingolfin, as well as many others of the Eldar were so strong because in earlier days, they were taught and had direct contact with the Valar.....they had lived in Aman (the Blessed Realm) itself which gave them some really superior powers and skill....and they were not restrained like the Istari were in their actions.....hence he could face off against Morgoth, one of the strongest Ainur, and even wound him.....some even in the Third Age possessed immense power of that sort.....like Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan....not as much as Fingolfin ofcourse, but enough....

And its not exactly about how old one is, but rather it seems so because the oldest ones have lived in the Blessed Realm and whoever has done that, usually is pretty much very strong and skilled....hence its so that some of the oldest people in Middle Earth are also the strongest....Theyre beacons of hope in the way Frodo sees Glorfindel on the Ford of Bruinen......all else grows dim but Glorfindel looks like a shining figure.....so will the others.....

And the Gandalf - Witch King scene in the extended edition of RoTK is THE MOST lore breaking scene in the entire movies franchise imo.... If they had faced off, Gandalf couldve annihilated the Witch King, but then again, he was forbidden to battle Sauron directly, and facing off with his main Lieutenant would pretty much come under that....hence Tolkien has very smartly avoided that confrontation in the books...

And Saruman is Saruman the White, because he had been voted and chosen as the leader of the Council by all the Wise....he is not particularly stronger than Gandalf.....not by default anyways, but Saruman had studied the tactics and skills of the enemy itself, his affinity was more towards to powerful aspects of magic while Gandalf was more aligned towards knowledge and wisdom....

And finally, Saruman's Uruk Hai could slaughter the orcs from Moria because he had created a hybrid sort of orc.....being one of the Istari, he no doubt achieved further corruption by making a hybrid of men and orcs.....which were stronger than the original orcs who were merely corrupted elves.....Sauron had some really strong orcs in his service too....its not the orcs of Mordor that are shown to be the weaker ones in the book...its the orcs from Moria who had come to avenge their leader....they were the weak and cowardly lot.....Grishnakh's and Ugluk's band of Mordor and Isengard orcs respectively were the strongest in that group....

Originally Posted by Areya121

As for which of the Istari(Maiar) belonged to which Valar - Saruman (and also Sauron's) Valar was Aule the Smith.

Gandalf was of Nienna, the Vala of Mercy.
and Radagast was of Yavanna, the Vala of Nature and animals.
Im not sure of the Blue Wizards but i think one of them at least was Manwe's.

Gandalf lived in the tutelage and gardens of Nienna, but he was one of the people of Manwe....

Gandalf himself said to Denethor that ".. one has come whom even I feared", referring to the Witch-King. I'm not saying that the WK had any chance to beat Gandalf, it's just that it would not have been an easy battle for Gandalf. Say, 4/5 the difficulty of the Balrog, since the WK also had his other Nazgul to aid him if he started losing. And 100k orcs. Even Wizards aren't immune to ZERG.

Glorfindel himself slew 3 Balrogs in the First Age. Chris Tolkien said that the Balrogs were in a pretty weak stage then, and Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog by the Third Age.

Saruman was way more powerful than Gandalf, as Gandalf didn't have the symbolic power of the "leader" (And hence, couldn't throw Wizards out of the Order, break staffs, etc."

Uruks and Orcs are THE SAME... Saruman's Uruks were exceptionally powerful, that's all. Not all Orcs are corrupted Elves, there weren't many Elves to corrupt, you see. The first Orcs definitely were, but the rest diminished in power as they were "bred".

Originally Posted by amien

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

First off, I'll mention that I haven't read anything but the OP, so someone else has likely already brought all this up.

The Istari (wizards) were sent in full mortal form for the very purpose of keeping them from getting a "god" mentality. They were vulnerable to mortal death.

Gandalf did not lose to the Balrog...he defeated the Balrog, but died in the process. He was sent back, however (still in mortal form.)

Saruman was the first of the Istari to come into Middle-earth and was made the head of the Order (as the White, he was the most powerful); however, when he corrupted (back before they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, contrary to what the Hobbit movie is going to portray), he actually began to weaken. Very likely, Gandalf could have actually defied Saruman rather than allow himself to be taken, but remember that Saruman also had vast numbers of Orcs at his disposal, and even Gandalf would not have been able to get through them all.

To put the power of certain creatures in perspective, when Gandalf escaped (who Saruman was actually holding for the Nazgûl), Saruman felt great terror, because he knew the Nine were more powerful than he was. In truth, the Ringwraiths (all nine together, not individually, as they had cumulatively increasing power) were more powerful than the Balrog.

Gandalf was not nearly as powerful as Sauron (at least not Istari form...in Valinor, in his native Maiar form, hevery likely he was.)

Oh, and by the way, 7 Balrogs (with Morgoth, and Gothmog probably) were enough to scare Ungoliant off. Hardly anything could scare Ungoliant, not even Morgoth himself.

Even though that doesn't sound as if they are extremely powerful, but remember: Ungoliant easily scared off Morgoth himself. She could easily beat Gandalf and Sauron; even the Valar can't do much against her.

Originally Posted by Berephon

Saruman was the first of the Istari to come into Middle-earth and was made the head of the Order (as the White, he was the most powerful); however, when he corrupted (back before they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, contrary to what the Hobbit movie is going to portray), he actually began to weaken. Very likely, Gandalf could have actually defied Saruman rather than allow himself to be taken, but remember that Saruman also had vast numbers of Orcs at his disposal, and even Gandalf would not have been able to get through them all.

Well remember that Morgoth decreased in power, not because of his corruption, but because he expended his personal power on his kingdom. Creating Dragons, or Uruk-hai, or creating rings of power, it does cost something. At the end, Morgoth was not the most powerful of the Valar, he had expended too much of his essence on his empire.

And that is just it, by putting his power into his army he can defeat Gandalf with his army, but in the end 1v1 he was no match for Gandalf.

Originally Posted by amien

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

It would be more accurate that the beings that came first started with more power. An important theme in LOTR is the fading of middle earth. Power in LOTR is finite, you only get so much and the more you use it the weaker you get. Morgoth was only defeated because he used too much of his power and finally became vulnerable to attack. In fact, one of the main reasons Sauron created the ring was to attempt to preserve his power in a way that it would not fade.

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

He doesn't lose. They kill each other, so it's a tie.
And if by the elven king you mean Feänor, he didn't cut them down, he just fought them for a while, and was in fact killed by them in the end.

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

It's not the older you are, the more powerful you are. It's just that the more powerful beings tend to either be semi-immortal (Sauron/Wizards) or simply survive longer (Galadriel), hence their age.

I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Gandalf was in fact more powerful than the Witch-king, MUCH more powerful. As Gandalf the Grey, he managed to fight the Witch-king and the 8 other Nazgûl all *at the same time*, stalling them for a whole night to give Aragorn and the Hobbits more time to travel without being chased. If he can fight all 9 of them as Gandalf the Grey and still win, imagine what he could do to to just 1 of them as Gandalf the White. Sauron would get 2 still-smoking Nazgûl boots sent back to him.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

No, time has nothing to do with it.
When the Istari were sent to Middle-earth, they were given a mortal body and their power was greatly limited, because their mission was to defeat Sauron not by force, but by aiding the Free Peoples, giving them hope and uniting them. Saruman was chosen to be head of the Istari, and later to be head of White Council, giving him greater power than the others.
However, Galadriel, Cirdan and Elrond perceived Gandalf was the greater, and when he later died and was sent back to replace Saruman as The White, his power limitations seemed to have been lifted to some extent, making him more powerful than Saruman.

New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

Never believe anything you see in Jackson's movies, they didn't follopw the books veyr well.
Orcs were indeed corrupted Elves. What Uruks were is still not certain, there were two main theories, that they were either a cross-breed of Orcs and Men, or Orcs that Sauron (and later Saruman) had been tinkering with to make them stronger.

Originally Posted by Berephon

Gandalf was not nearly as powerful as Sauron (at least not Istari form...in Valinor, in his native Maiar form, hevery likely he was.)

I do remember Tolkien saying that Olorin was the wisest of them all.
Plus, some other clues scathered around then to confirm the power of Olorin/Gandalf, such as: the episode of the ring of fire and the One ring (when he refuses it), the resurection by Illuvator himself, etc.

Olorin never real shows his true power, which I believe his greater than any being in Middle-Earth at that point. Including Sauron.

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Is it ever mentioned what happens to Ungoliant? Wasn't Shelob one of her daughters?

Originally Posted by amien

Is it ever mentioned what happens to Ungoliant? Wasn't Shelob one of her daughters?

Sort of, and yes.

When they arrived in Lammoth in Middle-earth, Ungoliant demanded the gems that Melkor had stolen from Formenos. She devoured them, and grew larger and darker, and she attacked Melkor when he refused to give her the Silmarils. Melkor's scream is what gave the area the name Lammoth, and when one screams, there is the voice of Melkor that echoes back from the surrounding hills. The immediate arrival of Balrogs freed Morgoth from the evil spider's webs during the Thieves' Quarrel. Driven off by the Balrogs, Ungoliant fled to Nan Dungortheb, where she bred with the creatures there to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders. The creatures that later infested the area were her surviving offspring and descendants, as was her daughter, Shelob, who dwelt on the borders of Mordor. It is said she later went far south, where legend has it, in her last hunger, she devoured herself.

lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ungoliant

Also, feel free to come over to the Tolkein board here, they're wonderful about answering even my silly questions there. ;-)

I very much doubt that even all the 9 Nazgul together would be stronger than Gandalf...especially Gandalf the White...since he is a Maia (despite being in the mortal frame) AND he has Narya that Cirdan gave him....

The Nazgul were only wraiths and Glorfindel nor any of the high elves were afraid of them because as Legolas himself said, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm dint fear them (wraiths) and they had great power over both the Seen and the Unseen.....Gandalf would definitely count under more than just "lived" in the Blessed Realm.....The Nazgul's power is just so feared because its stems from Sauron himself....

But since no such standoff actually takes place in any of the books, there will never be conclusive evidence of the fact...although considering he fought off five Nazgul alone at night when they are strongest, when he was just Gandalf the Grey would atleast give some measure of his strength.....


Also about Ungoliant yeah.....she was exceptionally powerful....someone who can bring down the most powerful Vala like Melkor to the level of screaming for help, thats wickedly powerful....

Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

He doesn't lose. They kill each other, so it's a tie.
And if by the elven king you mean Feänor, he didn't cut them down, he just fought them for a while, and was in fact killed by them in the end.

I think the OP meant Fingolfin who apparently did fight balrogs since he had sieged Angband and even wounded Morgoth seven times in a duel....even Morgoth feared him....

Originally Posted by Haunt123

Glorfindel himself slew 3 Balrogs in the First Age. Chris Tolkien said that the Balrogs were in a pretty weak stage then, and Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog by the Third Age.

Glorfindel battled one Balrog during the escape from Gondolin and they both fell from the peak and died. As far as I know this was the only instance of an elf killing a Balrog.

Originally Posted by Gui_Incognito

Glorfindel battled one Balrog during the escape from Gondolin and they both fell from the peak and died. As far as I know this was the only instance of an elf killing a Balrog.

My bad, you're right.
But that's not the only instance: remember Ecthelion vs Gothmog.
Another question: Is Gandalf the Grey's power comparable to that of Fingon, Ecthelion, Finglofin etc.? Fingon and Ecthelion fought Gothmog, the mightiest of Balrogs. Fingolfin gave even Morgoth a good fight. Gandalf nearly died fighting one Balrog

Originally Posted by Haunt123

My bad, you're right.
But that's not the only instance: remember Ecthelion vs Gothmog.
Another question: Is Gandalf the Grey's power comparable to that of Fingon, Ecthelion, Finglofin etc.? Fingon and Ecthelion fought Gothmog, the mightiest of Balrogs. Fingolfin gave even Morgoth a good fight. Gandalf nearly died fighting one Balrog

You're right. Also interesting to note is that both Balrogs who died in fights with Elves died of falls and not due to any wounds they sustained.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

I very much doubt that even all the 9 Nazgul together would be stronger than Gandalf...especially Gandalf the White...since he is a Maia (despite being in the mortal frame) AND he has Narya that Cirdan gave him....

The Nazgul were only wraiths and Glorfindel nor any of the high elves were afraid of them because as Legolas himself said, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm dint fear them (wraiths) and they had great power over both the Seen and the Unseen.....Gandalf would definitely count under more than just "lived" in the Blessed Realm.....The Nazgul's power is just so feared because its stems from Sauron himself....

But since no such standoff actually takes place in any of the books, there will never be conclusive evidence of the fact...although considering he fought off five Nazgul alone at night when they are strongest, when he was just Gandalf the Grey would atleast give some measure of his strength.....

The Nine could definitely not beat Gandalf, no matter what advantage they had. But Gandalf could have never been able to beat the Nine, like he beat the Balrog. I think that's what Berephon meant.

Also, we're looking at a limited number of Elven superheroes who didn't fear the Nazgul: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan are all that come to mind. The thing is, they didn't fear the Nine, but by no means could they have beat the Nine.

The Witch-King of Angmar is not just any other Ringwraith, he brought down the North kingdom and ended the line of Kings of the South. Of course, he didn't do this by brute strength, but by cunning. Remember how Ar-pharazon and his army made Sauron's flee, and though Sauron had the Ring, he couldn't stand a chance? He utilized the greatest power the Ring gave him: Dominance over lesser minds. Combined with cunning.

1v1, Gandalf would have certainly beat the Witch-King. But in a realistic fight, who knows? The Nazgul led the armies of Mordor to destroy the greatest powers in Middle-Earth, you really can't underestimate his power.

Originally Posted by Haunt123

The Nine could definitely not beat Gandalf, no matter what advantage they had. But Gandalf could have never been able to beat the Nine, like he beat the Balrog. I think that's what Berephon meant.

Also, we're looking at a limited number of Elven superheroes who didn't fear the Nazgul: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan are all that come to mind. The thing is, they didn't fear the Nine, but by no means could they have beat the Nine.

The Witch-King of Angmar is not just any other Ringwraith, he brought down the North kingdom and ended the line of Kings of the South. Of course, he didn't do this by brute strength, but by cunning. Remember how Ar-pharazon and his army made Sauron's flee, and though Sauron had the Ring, he couldn't stand a chance? He utilized the greatest power the Ring gave him: Dominance over lesser minds. Combined with cunning.

1v1, Gandalf would have certainly beat the Witch-King. But in a realistic fight, who knows? The Nazgul led the armies of Mordor to destroy the greatest powers in Middle-Earth, you really can't underestimate his power.

Yep definitely agreed there....some of the most powerful people in Middle Earth were also some of the most wise/cunning ones.....there'd be no saying what would happen in a true showdown...

Although since you mentioned the North kingdom, the North Kingdom lost to Angmar and the Witch King more because of its internal conflicts, carelessness and false sense of being impregnable than anything else....the Witch King very strategically used their weaknesses and brought down the great Kingdom of Arnor with some really brilliant tactics.... Plus an extremely potent sorceror he was even when he was alive.....not someone to underestimate for sure

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

Plus an extremely potent sorceror he was even when he was alive.....not someone to underestimate for sure

Though technically, he was already a ring wraith by then --if I remember correctly, the ring wraiths first appeared in the second age--and even took part in the battle of the last alliance. They went into hiding when Sauron was defeated.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

It's good to remember that beyond what was published within the Professor's lifetime, little is really set in stone. JRRT's notes have been published, but if using them as a source, it is needed to anchor a specific time frame which to use, as he tended to revise the world. (On the online age, you might compare this to some playing LotRO on 2007 version of SoA and others on current - some things change, some things stay the same. Using lore based on the Book of Lost Tales would be about on the lines of finding Sierra design documents and hacking together Middle-earth Online.)

As for Balrogs, in very early versions of Fall of Gondolin the principal heroes do indeed kill lots. In the published Silmarillion the notes were rewritten by CJRT (with the assistance of Guy Gavriel Kay) from existing fragments, and in this version we do know for certain that two Balrogs die: Gothmog (taking Echtelion with it) and an unnamed Balrog (taking Glorfindel with it). Fëanor fought many Balrogs (as may have happened when Maedhros was captured), but casualties are only recorded on the Elven side. Fingolfin is not recorded fighting Balrogs, I believe - on his ride to duel Morgoth, everyone is reported to flee him, and even Morgoth came reluctantly to face him. (It is notable that Morgoth is, indeed, a coward, as he is the only of the Ainur that can be wounded permanently, if we trust apocryphal material - for others, the bodies are disposable.) Of the other First Age duels of note, we do know that Finrod dueled Sauron and was defeated, and that later Luthien managed to defeat Sauron together with Huan (who may be of the Maiar itself). Fingon managed to defend himself against a Balrog in Nirnaeth, but died when surrounded.

Of the Wizards: They were originally sent to Middle-earth as agents (as in actual secret agents, not as in James Bond movies), each for their own skills. Gandalf's main task would be rallying people, not to fight in person. Saruman, however, turned his skills into dominating others, and may have been otherwise greater in power (however that is measured) than Gandalf. It is notable that Gandalf's defeat is not complete: He lost his staff, but Saruman still failed to find out that Gandalf wore Narya. This may be oversight on the Professor's part - though my understanding, coloured by an old Finnish TV series, is that the confrontation between Gandalf the Grey and Saruman was more alike to a contest of wills, with Gandalf giving in, rather than a D&D style wizard duel. Alternatively, Saruman may still have wished to convert Gandalf to his cause, and thought that removing his staff from him would suffice to keep him imprisoned.

Naturally, for the specific case of LotRO, we do have Word-of-God also from the developers. (Berephon: No pressure.) Also possible future movie spoilers?

On the nature of magic in Middle-earth: Some old (homebrew) ruleset for Middle-earth magic had an explanation that I could subscribe to, but it likely doesn't have that much actual lore background. IIRC in those rules, 'power' from the Ainur was innately more powerful than Elvish 'power', which yet was more powerful than the Dead. The magicians in those rules 'borrowed' from one of these sources - with black magic being specific of gathering the essense Morgoth spread to the world. This wasn't strict ruleset, a spell cast with 'weaker' magic could be as powerful as one cast with 'stronger' type of magical pool, but required more effort. However, a ringless Wraith would, in these rules, be innately 'less powerful' than a High Elf of similar standing. This all is, as mentioned, most likely homebrew and also borrowed a lot from the Finnish mythology's concept of 'väki', roughly translated to 'folk' of different things (such as water, the dead, etc.) that could be bargained with to help with different things.

Thanks for the Wiki link! Its ALMOST as big of a timesink as Wookiepedia for me now. :P

Also on reading about Gandalf's ring:

"It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair"
What could the other rings do? I was told that elrond's "ring of Wind" is what caused the river to rise when the Nazgul tried to enter Imladris.


Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

Originally Posted by amien

Thanks for the Wiki link! Its ALMOST as big of a timesink as Wookiepedia for me now. :P

Also on reading about Gandalf's ring:

"It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair"
What could the other rings do? I was told that elrond's "ring of Wind" is what caused the river to rise when the Nazgul tried to enter Imladris.


Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Where is it said that Narya's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it? 0.o Actually Elrond says at the Council in Rivendell that none of the rings were made to be gear of war....their powers were only that of healing and preserving and resisting the evil powers.....

Narya was the Ring of Fire, given by the elven smith Celebrimbor to Gil Galad when he was going to fight Sauron with the Last Alliance, so that he could resist Sauron's power and dominance when he fought him......Gil Galad gave it to Cirdan though and kept Vilya with himself until he died in the final battle with Sauron on Mount Doom....then it was given to Elrond, who was Gil Galad's herald and one of the only 2 people present with him of his army (second was Cirdan).....Cirdan later gave Narya to Gandalf when he arrived to Middle Earth....hence he could resist the Balrog's power as well as the temptation of the One Ring.....its a kind of boost to willpower.....

Vilya, the ring of Air, is possessed by Elrond....its supposed to be the mightiest of the 3 elven rings and although its power is not clearly defined anywhere, its supposedly a ring with powers of Restoration and Healing and Preservation.....hence Elrond has such great healing powers and Rivendell is preserved as is mentioned in the books - "the memory of all the Ages gone seems to be preserved there"....although its not clear if the ring was associated with the flood of Bruinen......its only said that the river of that valley is under the control of Elrond (as is everything in that valley) and it will listen to his commands.....if he uses the ring to do that or simply has that kind of power himself, cant say.....though it does make sense that the ring might aid him in doing that....

Nenya, the ring of Water, is possessed by Galadriel and its the Ring of Adamant as Galadriel tells Frodo....its powers are obviously those of maintenance, some sort of adamant of will power and protection....hence Lothlorien is so magical because the ring has a power to even affect time and people as the fellowship feel when they live there....its as if living in the past....in an unstained, perfect harmonious time.....

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

The RK class is not based on Glorfindel...its based on Celebrimbor.....the celebrated elven smith of Eregion.....one who crafted the 3 rings Vilya, Nenya and Narya....

Glorfindel on the other hand is one of the High Elves....he was old indeed....there is a mention of another elf named Glorfindel in the earlier Ages, in Silmarillion, at Gondolin and its fall, although its unclear whether this is the same Glorfindel that we see in the Lord of the Rings.....both of them are said to be one of the mighty Firstborn though......who have lived in Aman and possess great strength and power......And you'll see that all those characters that are known to have lived in the Blessed Realm at some point in the lore, give off exceptional hope in the game (+10 hope).....be it Glorfindel, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc.....

Originally Posted by amien

Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

The Elf-rings don't have power like the One Ring (Troll-strength, etc.) Narya gave hope to anyone who was near, or who thought of, Gandalf. It gave people the will to resist Tyranny, and made Gandalf an even more efficient leader It's like the hope buff heroes give you in game, except that it's +20 hope or whatever.

However, you are right. The Elf-lords themselves said that it would have been better if the Elf Rings were never crafted, for Sauron could now know a lot about the Elf settlements using the One Ring.

The RK class is inspired by Celebrimbor, not Glorfindel. Glorfindel was an Elf lord in Gondolin, a very important hidden fortress of the First Age. It housed Turgon, Lord of the Noldor Elves (High Elves). It fell when a certain Dark Elf betrayed its locaion to Morgoth.
Glorfindel protected a group of important people escaping the ruin, however he had to fight a Balrog. He and the Balrog were both killed. Later, in the Third Age I think, the Valar sent him back to aid in fighting Sauron.

So you can guess that his might is comparable to Elrond's. In fact, he is much older than Elrond. Seeing him should give you a + infinity hope buff, because each servant of Sauron, including Sauron himself, fears Glorfindel.

EDIT: Silverblade beat me to it. Damn all of you lore-junkies :P

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

Originally Posted by amien

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

Elrond has descended from many High Elven kings; he is a Noldor Elf. His is of "noble blood", to say. That pretty much qualifies him as a High Elf, though he had never lived in Eldamar.
He is famous because

1. He is the son of the person who triggered the fall of Morgoth
2. He was the Herald of Gil-Galad, king of the High Elves
3. His was the only refuge for High Elves in Middle-Earth (Rivendell)
4. He has Vilya, the greatest of the Three Rings (I think)
5. He is more learned in lore than anyone, even Gandalf.
6. He is a very important member of the White Council.
7. He is the eldest of the Edain (though he is not a man himself), and was thus respected by all the Dunedain Kings.
8. He was the brother of the first King of Numenor.
9. He is descended from nearly ALL the houses of Elves and Men, and he is part Maiar too.
10. He, Cirdan, Gil Galad, Isildur and Elendil were the only ones who confronted Sauron

And many more reasons...

Celeborn was an Elf lord in Doriath, a great kingdom of Sindar Elves in the First Age. Galadriel sort of overshadows his role, as she plays a much mre important role than him. I think he is a Sindar Elf, so he's not a light Elf.

The Race of Man does not belong in the "Undying" Lands, Aman. They could, however, set sail to the place, like Earendil did. But after the First Age, the Men of Numenor (The remnants of the Men of Beleriand) were forbidden to set sail to the West. The last king of the Numenor tried to break this ban, and he did set foot on Aman, but then Numenor was destroyed and the Undying Lands were removed from the Circles of the World.

Thus, now, only Elves could reach Aman, and races *other than Men* can only reach Aman if guided by Elves. Men, however, are now free to go wherever they want, as can be seen from the discoveries of many new lands, such as the Americas. (LOTR is a fictional history of the Earth).

(Right now, the Sixth Age is going on. The Dwarves have shut themselves from the world and are in their subterranean homes. The Elves who remained in Middle-Earth have "faded" and become invisible to Men. IDK about Hobbits.)

I just wanted to thank all of you lore junkies for all this information. /deepbow

If you're really into the lore, these are my thoughts on the Americas:

Once the Undying Lands were removed from the World, the land itself (the bare land (not exactly bare, but you get the point)) was left on Arda. These lands were the Americas, as they are directly west of Europe, where Middle Earth was. In fact, Numenor was in the Atlantic Ocean (a counterpart to Atlantis).

Some Equivalents...

Scandinavia = Forochel. The shape is somewhat similar, if you observe.
(You can make out the rest of Europe if this is true)
Africa = Harad. There was an excellent map of Arda which showed this.
The Americas = Undying Lands
Atlantis = Numenor

I COULD BE VERY WRONG WITH THESE, though.