Thread: Say YES to level cap increase!!!

Originally Posted by Reapor

PS, I keep reading things like `the new Warden Update will not enable the Warden to be a viable end game Tank` correct me if I`m wrong, but isn`t the Guardian supposed to be the Viable end game Tank and the Warden designed as the off Tank, or do Wardens expect to be able to tank every boss in the game ?? If so you need Heavy Armour and a name change to `Guardian`.

You might want to take that up with the original class designer and subsequent devs, then, as well as the folks who write class descriptions. The only end-game role wardens have ever had is main tank - it's all the class was built for.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

1 - Too high of a level cap becomes a deterrent to leveling a new character for both alts and new players.

Only interesting for players who play many alts, not interesting to (mostly) solo players. As far as new players are concerned, how will they be deterred if there's a lot of game to experience? That counter-argument is only interesting to players as good as only interesting in endgame play, and for whom everything on the way there is just an obstacle that should be overcome.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

2 - Existing content is made obsolete, limiting the number of rewarding instances to run.

Only interesting for endgame players, actually the other way around to (mostly) solo players.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

3 - Gear becomes obsolete, rendering months of effort and character progression worthless.

Only interesting for endgame players, actually the other way around to (mostly) solo players.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

4 - Provides a false sense of character progression instead of actual character progression. Characters become more effective on existing mobs, but less effective against new on-level mobs.

Why is endgame character progression in a "right sense" somehow, contrary to, you guess it, (mostly) solo character progression?

Originally Posted by Yosoff

5 - The Legendary Item grind begins anew.

That is a problem the LIs have as such, has nothing to do with how many levels. If the LIs would level with the character, perhaps be leveled up themselves the way skirmish soldiers are, that would not be an issue anyways.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

6 - Alts get left behind and in some cases abandoned as keeping up with 10 additional levels every year becomes overwhelming.

Only interesting for players who play many alts, not interesting to (mostly) solo players. As far as new players are concerned, how will they be deterred if there's a lot of game to experience? That counter-argument is only interesting to players as good as only interesting in endgame play, and for whom everything on the way there is just an obstacle that should be overcome.

I sense a pattern here and have already said so in other threads, too. The "why more levels" complaint comes from endgame players and players with many alts.

For mostly solo players new levels are a further addition to the game.

Who doesn't want to play the grindmill of many alts and endgame, just don't do it. But please don't try and spoil the game for people who are happy when it is extended.

I am all for giving endgamers and alt-players something to expand into too ... but this is happening for sure. So - are you seriously complaining that the game isn't at an end, factually?

I'm not getting it.

Originally Posted by Reapor

PS, I keep reading things like `the new Warden Update will not enable the Warden to be a viable end game Tank` correct me if I`m wrong, but isn`t the Guardian supposed to be the Viable end game Tank and the Warden designed as the off Tank, or do Wardens expect to be able to tank every boss in the game ?? If so you need Heavy Armour and a name change to `Guardian`.

You sir will be flayed alive when the warden community sees this. The warden is meant to be a viable end game tank. It was designed in the beginning to be a main tank. The warden is meant to give people a different style of main tanking instead of the guardian. Also for aggro holding a good warden beats a good guard hands down. With aggro once a good warden has it they will never lose it no matter how DPS heavy the DPSers get. With a good guard it is still possible to pull aggro off him though not common. The problem is that turbine have messed up wardens to where they are no longer viable anything. Realistically their should not be a boss that a guardian can tank that a warden can't and vice versa. Of course there should be some bosses that are better to have a guardian for and some better to have a warden for but still either can be used it's just easier with one or the other for the boss.

Originally Posted by Gohankuten

You sir will be flayed alive when the warden community sees this. The warden is meant to be a viable end game tank. It was designed in the beginning to be a main tank. The warden is meant to give people a different style of main tanking instead of the guardian. Also for aggro holding a good warden beats a good guard hands down. With aggro once a good warden has it they will never lose it no matter how DPS heavy the DPSers get. With a good guard it is still possible to pull aggro off him though not common. The problem is that turbine have messed up wardens to where they are no longer viable anything. Realistically their should not be a boss that a guardian can tank that a warden can't and vice versa. Of course there should be some bosses that are better to have a guardian for and some better to have a warden for but still either can be used it's just easier with one or the other for the boss.

+ rep to you sir, and thankfully for the poster above, I'm not in a flaying mood today

Wardens may have a DPS role and a tanking role come update 6, but we've been broken since RoI came out. That's because of the new and horrible mitigation system, and because our sole role in end-game has always been main-tanking. We have the lowest DPS in the game, bar none, tanking is what we were built for, and that alone. We may be the only class without a secondary role (though hunters and CC is kind of stretching it). Since we could do nothing but tank, we're pretty pointless at the moment, but hopefully that will change with U6, and we'll be happily tanking again in the near future. I think a secondary role is a good idea, but we don't have one yet, it's still to come - and it will be secondary.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Why level cap raise is a good thing:
3. Characters become noticeably stronger. Can't argue that, really. Most characters got at least 2-3k or extra morale, Tanks got 6-8k. The DPS my characters deal went up at least 50% and the damage done on devastating hits almost doubled. Things I was barely able to kill earlier with all the potions and all the cooldowns now fall before me like wheat. Things I had to deal with by avoiding them alone and bringing 2-3 other people along for the kill are now soloable with the potions and cooldowns. Come Rohan, I will be even stronger and they will die even faster. Tell me that is a bad thing, I dare you.

4. Old content does not magically get removed with level cap raise. Nor does it become "outdated" or "obsolete" - it becomes "accessible". Remember how back at RoI release some used to whine that there was not enough landscape group content to do? Specifically, that it was limited to 4 Culling Pit quests in Carreglyn and Gatecrasher hidden deed? Well, guess what, that's because most people don't actually do that: my first character did those within a week of release and got a group as soon as I asked for it in LFF; my second character went though 2 months later and had to advertise for several days before getting those done; by the time my third character comes along I'm afraid there won't be enough interested people left and I'll be forced to skip it. The solution? Level cap raise, which allows to do the same with less people! Old group quests, such as Thror's Coomb dailes, Angmar fellowship quests and even raids like Bogbereth can now be soloed. Old instances either extremely undermanned or in many cases soloed too. Rift can be 4-manned, Watcher 5-manned and Thorog 6-manned. This is not bad at all - this actually allows more people to see it at less pressing pace. Before I had to advertise for weeks to get a run of Barad Gularan, Mirror-Halls or Dungeons of Dol Guldur, now I am able to do them on my own. Before RoI I had no hope of killing a single boss in BG or OD, now I have completed both and actually saw what they had to offer. That old content doesn't get removed from the game you know - it just shifts the target group from the hardcore raiders who deem anything under their level "not challenging enough and thus not worthy" to the new people who actually get the chance to see the Balrog, the Lieutenant or Gortheron for the first time.

5. It bring old players the excitement of leveling back. My first characters sat at level cap for about 6 months and things got pretty stagnant by then - I can only imagine the casual people without many alts who did not see their level bar move for almost 2 years before RoI. And even if you're playing your 8th alt, getting back to your first and main character is almost special. The world gets bigger, new regions open, hundreds of new quests await, Epics nave new twists and turns - your character is on a journey again after reliving the same experience of group instance over and over in a Groundhog Day loop for months. Great things to come! You toss away that armor you wore for over a year without washing it (when did you last wash that breastplate and those pants? did you ever?) and equip brand new things for once. You have once again a goal ahead of you and each new level unlocks either a new skill, a new item you can equip or a new trait slot (those would be nice by the way). Not all of us are in a rush to get to that desired endgame where you can gloriously repeat again and again... no, not even the new instance cluster, no! Only that particular instance that has the optimal time/reward ratio and no other!

In short, those are pretty much the same points those opposing the level cap probably would bring too. Ah, well, Turbine definitely can't please everyone and so far they made it clear they plan to add thing that the majority of players will enjoy, instead of only the minority. And level cap raise is definitely among those things.

3. How did we become noticibly stronger? is T2 fangorn or Pits that much easier than T2 STH or NCF? Aside from Foundry which is too easy compared to previous T2 fellowship content the new instances and raids are exactly as challenging as previous generation raids. ToO is no easier than OD was.

4. How often do you see people run SG, FG, turtle, VM, BG, Glacier or LT? all of those instances and raids are solid content that is not being run at all anymore because at the levels you can use the rewards you are busy getting to higher level and don't want to spend a ton of time waiting around for a group of 6 or 12 to form. At level 75, why would I spend the better part of 45 minutes to SG or LT T2 when I can't use any the rewards and I get more barter tokens from soloing first boss in pits T1 twice? How many people do the group and raid quests in North Angmar since the introduction of Eregion and Moria? I have leveled 3 toons through that area and I haven't done more than a handful of group quests total that I couldn't solo or duo. All that content is obsolete and irrelevant, the only times it ever gets run is to equip a few alts in raiding kins. I bet you more than half of all toons currently at level 50 who will reach level 75 won't ever have 4 pieces of moria teal armor, DN armor, OD armor or BG armor.

5. Excitement? I learn nothing about my character when leveling, I can roll my champ through Dunland by using no more than 10 skills from level 65 to 75. It is just a necesary evil so I can unlock the good content and challenge myself. If they had the recruit a friend setup that WoW uses I would have my alts leveled to cap for me.

Originally Posted by Dovakhim

Only interesting for players who play many alts, not interesting to (mostly) solo players. As far as new players are concerned, how will they be deterred if there's a lot of game to experience? That counter-argument is only interesting to players as good as only interesting in endgame play, and for whom everything on the way there is just an obstacle that should be overcome.

I sense a pattern here and have already said so in other threads, too. The "why more levels" complaint comes from endgame players and players with many alts.

Why are you equating solo players to people who only play 1 character? There are plenty of soloists who play many characters.

For mostly solo players new levels are a further addition to the game.

Who doesn't want to play the grindmill of many alts and endgame, just don't do it. But please don't try and spoil the game for people who are happy when it is extended.

...

I'm not getting it.

Levels do not add anything to the game except a shiny animation when you reach a new level.

You can add content to a game without increasing the level cap--why is this hard to understand?

New skills, traits, gear, etc. can be earned without something so trivial as gaining a level. New raids, quests, epics, and systems can be added for the same level--if you won't do a quest unless it gives XP, it can't be that fun. Maybe it's time for a little self-examination.

All raising the level cap does is feed the LOTRO addiction, and the addiction of feeling as if you've accomplished something. I get it. I'm addicted as well. Leveling is far from the only thing in-game feeding this addiction. In the end, if they take out part of what makes the game addicting and I cease to be an addict, have I really lost anything? If I have withdrawals, I'll just read a book.

Let's stop pretending that a level cap increase is necessary for ANYTHING mentioned in this thread except the ability to walk unmolested around lower level areas. I imagine L50 sickleflies in Bree with 96 hit points would be slightly annoying when it comes to run buffs and remounting, but they could always make the gray-ing out of mobs be tied to something other than mob level.

Well I really hate when people because dont agree with you just take the time to give you bad reputation, if I dont agree with someone I explain my point but never give them bad reputation when I just disagree with them. For the falacious one that felt the need to use his mighty e-peen to give me bad reputation kudos to you.

Originally Posted by Traur

3. How did we become noticibly stronger? is T2 fangorn or Pits that much easier than T2 STH or NCF? Aside from Foundry which is too easy compared to previous T2 fellowship content the new instances and raids are exactly as challenging as previous generation raids. ToO is no easier than OD was.

4. How often do you see people run SG, FG, turtle, VM, BG, Glacier or LT? all of those instances and raids are solid content that is not being run at all anymore because at the levels you can use the rewards you are busy getting to higher level and don't want to spend a ton of time waiting around for a group of 6 or 12 to form. At level 75, why would I spend the better part of 45 minutes to SG or LT T2 when I can't use any the rewards and I get more barter tokens from soloing first boss in pits T1 twice? How many people do the group and raid quests in North Angmar since the introduction of Eregion and Moria? I have leveled 3 toons through that area and I haven't done more than a handful of group quests total that I couldn't solo or duo. All that content is obsolete and irrelevant, the only times it ever gets run is to equip a few alts in raiding kins. I bet you more than half of all toons currently at level 50 who will reach level 75 won't ever have 4 pieces of moria teal armor, DN armor, OD armor or BG armor.

5. Excitement? I learn nothing about my character when leveling, I can roll my champ through Dunland by using no more than 10 skills from level 65 to 75. It is just a necesary evil so I can unlock the good content and challenge myself. If they had the recruit a friend setup that WoW uses I would have my alts leveled to cap for me.

Well I know that champs became much stronger with the update and lvl increase.At 65 I couldnt go in and solo ST,Northcotton,or much of anything else.Now at 75 I can not only go in and Solo those on tier 2 but I can go into Pits or fangorn tier 1 and solo those.

Im on Vilya and almost daily you still see groups forming for Turtle,GS,FG,BG,VM and some others.Through out the week you see people forming for DN,LT,OD,GB.Granted not every instance gets run but lets face it to some there are instances that just arent that fun.Just because youre not seeing it doesnt mean theyre not getting done.

Originally Posted by Kantaryo

Well I really hate when people because dont agree with you just take the time to give you bad reputation, if I dont agree with someone I explain my point but never give them bad reputation when I just disagree with them. For the falacious one that felt the need to use his mighty e-peen to give me bad reputation kudos to you, I hope you choke on all the hate that fills your heart.

You can try and appeal negative rep. It seems like there are plenty of people who don't understand the negative rep system. The only time I got negative rep was for the same thing--someone just disagreed. Personally, I can't even see why someone would bother to use negative rep, because if you're using it correctly, that post or thread or poster will all be gone soon, anyway.

What's funny is, I believe you can only give negative rep to someone with less rep than you, so when I got negative rep, I could pretty much guess which coward in the thread it was. I was tempted to abuse the negative rep function myself, but figured maybe he was just dumb.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Why are you equating solo players to people who only play 1 character? There are plenty of soloists who play many characters.



Levels do not add anything to the game except a shiny animation when you reach a new level.

You can add content to a game without increasing the level cap--why is this hard to understand?

New skills, traits, gear, etc. can be earned without something so trivial as gaining a level. New raids, quests, epics, and systems can be added for the same level--if you won't do a quest unless it gives XP, it can't be that fun. Maybe it's time for a little self-examination.

All raising the level cap does is feed the LOTRO addiction, and the addiction of feeling as if you've accomplished something. I get it. I'm addicted as well. Leveling is far from the only thing in-game feeding this addiction. In the end, if they take out part of what makes the game addicting and I cease to be an addict, have I really lost anything? If I have withdrawals, I'll just read a book.

Let's stop pretending that a level cap increase is necessary for ANYTHING mentioned in this thread except the ability to walk unmolested around lower level areas. I imagine L50 sickleflies in Bree with 96 hit points would be slightly annoying when it comes to run buffs and remounting, but they could always make the gray-ing out of mobs be tied to something other than mob level.

If leveling is so trivial whats the problem.To get the new skills,traits,gear,etc you'd have to do quests and content.So what if your lvl goes up,you're doing that content anyway.Your arguement is that older content becomes not worth running.I just cant understand your reasoning.I need selfexamination because a solo quest of killing boars(again)wont be fun,yet you wont run instances that were a blast to run because you dont get anything from it.I think you might need a little self-examination

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

If leveling is so trivial whats the problem.To get the new skills,traits,gear,etc you'd have to do quests and content.So what if your lvl goes up,you're doing that content anyway.Your arguement is that older content becomes not worth running.I just cant understand your reasoning.I need selfexamination because a solo quest of killing boars(again)wont be fun,yet you wont run instances that were a blast to run because you dont get anything from it.I think you might need a little self-examination

The problem is that over something so trivial, I now need to do quests I'd otherwise not do in order to get to the things I would enjoy doing. Sure, some quests I would do for the fun of it. Others I would do for the reward. Most, I would skip. But raising the cap just encourages the devs to waste more time and resources creating "busy work" leveling quests instead of something actually entertaining.

As for self-examination: do you need it? I don't know. I''m sure we all do. I know I keep doing the same boring quests in an effort to level. But I do it with a destination in mind--reaching the level cap so I can do the fun content--so I grin and bear it. But you're saying most non-endgame soloers do it not for endgame, but for the journey. In that case, if the journey sucks (kill 10 boars in exchange for 9,000 XP ad nauseam) and one still fights to be able to continue the sucky journey, that seems odd to me.

As for not doing obsolete instances, I'm sure you realize that part of the fun for many people is at least some semblance of a challenge. It's not that I care about the lack of reward (though a combination of fun and reward is ideal), it's that I don't get much satisfaction out of mowing down gray mobs with no effort. If I want to hang out with my friends and kill stuff that can't fight back for little to no reward, I can grind deeds in the Shire.

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

If leveling is so trivial whats the problem.

Because it's trivial AND brings negative effects listed dozens of times already. If it was not trivial, there would at least be something to balance these with.

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

To get the new skills,traits,gear,etc you'd have to do quests and content.So what if your lvl goes up,you're doing that content anyway.

Relevance? What kind of "quests and content" can render part of other content obsolete in similar way rushed +10lv jump does?

Also, take a closer look at leveling options. You have lot of them <50lv. After that your *only* options are:
- grind Moria for weeks, that's how long it will take getting additional xp from (slowly abandoned) instance quests, skip Lorien/Mirkwood/Enedwaith or even two of them
- level through parts of Moria/Lorien/Mirkwood/Enedwaith
- level through every single zone, reach Dunland @ lv 70/71 or even higher...

RoI leveling options? Great River-waith we know nothing about?

Originally Posted by Frisco

The problem is that over something so trivial, I now need to do quests I'd otherwise not do in order to get to the things I would enjoy doing. Sure, some quests I would do for the fun of it. Others I would do for the reward. Most, I would skip. But raising the cap just encourages the devs to waste more time and resources creating "busy work" leveling quests instead of something actually entertaining.

As for self-examination: do you need it? I don't know. I''m sure we all do. I know I keep doing the same boring quests in an effort to level. But I do it with a destination in mind--reaching the level cap so I can do the fun content--so I grin and bear it. But you're saying most non-endgame soloers do it not for endgame, but for the journey. In that case, if the journey sucks (kill 10 boars in exchange for 9,000 XP ad nauseam) and one still fights to be able to continue the sucky journey, that seems odd to me.

As for not doing obsolete instances, I'm sure you realize that part of the fun for many people is at least some semblance of a challenge. It's not that I care about the lack of reward (though a combination of fun and reward is ideal), it's that I don't get much satisfaction out of mowing down gray mobs with no effort. If I want to hang out with my friends and kill stuff that can't fight back for little to no reward, I can grind deeds in the Shire.

The part where i wrote that I need selfexamination was sarcasm to your post,went right over your head.Again your posts really arent making any sense.Previously you comment on people that wont run quests because they dont exp need self examination,yet now youre writing that if you didnt need to get to lvl you wouldnt run them either.Make up your mind.Non of your arguements have made any sense.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Because it's trivial AND brings negative effects listed dozens of times already. If it was not trivial, there would at least be something to balance these with.



Relevance? What kind of "quests and content" can render part of other content obsolete in similar way rushed +10lv jump does?

Content becomes easier even when youre on lvl.When we were 50 the Balrog was being 4 and 5 manned.Cd and Uru 3 manned.It didnt matter that we were on lvl.After running it so many times the challenge was gone.Didnt get higher in lvl,just got use to the fights.Whether the level goes up or not youre most likely not gonna go back and run older instances for the loot or the challenge.A new raid comes with better gear am I gonna go back and run content for rewards that arent as good?When BG came out,how many people were still trying to farm the moria instances?It was still relevant content but most of the instances quickly dried up.The easier ones sure.DD,Skum,16th,they quickly faded.Also I dont need 3 random 75 to run through GS,It can be soloed.

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

When were 50 Balrog was being 4 and 5 manned.Cd and Uru 3 manned.

How long it was before it was even possible? Few months after release of the game? What % of people was able to run such undermanned attempts and after how long period of preparations? Was that group slightly smaller than +25lv bunch or dramatically smaller to the point of being statistical anomaly?

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

After running it so many times the challenge was gone.Didnt get higher in lvl,just got use to the fights. Whether the level goes up or not your not gonna go back and run older instances for the loot.A new raid comes with better gear am I gonna go back and run content for rewards that arent as good?

How long it took to "run it so many times"? Were there incentives like... oh, I dunno, class quests to at least push for few of them per character? What about currency rewards? How often do they HAVE to become obsolete with every single cap jump so we are constantly back at "huge" U5 instance set instead of expanding the number of valid cap choices, at the very least for its currency? What about options, various builds supported by actual itemization? It it is possible today, expanding on that is not really nuclear physics. And failing that, why on earth eg. +140 Might items that can be very well spread around chosen instances need 85lv cap anyway?

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

When BG came out,how many people were still trying to farm the moria instances?It was still relevant content but most of the instances quickly dried up.The easier ones sure.DD,Skum,16th,they quickly faded.

How long it took Moria instances to "fade" with a single +5 lv jump (after, oh, what time AND sidegrade updates?), revamps AND in very different itemization/stats enviroment? (After Radiance was removed, Moria set was suddenly judged based on its own enhancements. And saying it was obsolete for every single class is rather shrugworthy, especially considering sidegrade philosophy.) Also, if you suggest Moria instances faded because of 5lv cap increase, what will happen to current U5? And why it is so necessary, when even currency can be enough to run them instead of constantly grinding few RoR instances (or... 85lv skirmraids if U5 cluster was not one-time blunder)?

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

Also I dont need 3 random 75 to run through GS,It can be soloed.

So what? Then get a person who can claim it can be soloed naked. It is still guessing your way into challenge rather than benefiting from content designed and tested (sigh...) for particular group of classes, with mechanics that matter more than zomgmissbpefromleveldifference buff.

Final trick: compare every single "How long" piece with RoI - RoR period. Add railroading to leveling zones where relevant. Add the fact LI system is not "fixed", lottery just switched to "how many majors". You might actually understand previous poster then...

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

The part where i wrote that I need selfexamination was sarcasm to your post,went right over your head.Again your posts really arent making any sense.Previously you comment on people that wont run quests because they dont exp need self examination,yet now youre writing that if you didnt need to get to lvl you wouldnt run them either.Make up your mind.Non of your arguements have made any sense.

If you run quests that you don't like only for the journey (and not endgame, as you said) and would STOP running these quests if you didn't get XP, that makes no sense. That's like running them only for the shiny 'level-up' animation and getting your dollar back (see: previous money analogy).

It makes perfect sense that I would not run these quests if they weren't necessary to reach level cap. Because I *do* place emphasis on end-game, since that is where I can find new, challenging content.

Cool 2 threads of competitive Epean swinging

Originally Posted by Frisco

The 2 ideas aren't conflicting, but for some reason, I don't think you'll understand that.

If you run quests that you don't like only for the journey (and not endgame, as you said) and would STOP running these quests if you didn't get XP, that makes no sense. That's like running them only for the shiny 'level-up' animation and getting your dollar back (see: previous money analogy).

It makes perfect sense that I would not run these quests if they weren't necessary to reach level cap. Because I *do* place emphasis on end-game, since that is where I can find new, challenging content.

You can write your post off as sarcasm and tell me I'm not making sense, but the reality is, you just don't understand my post. That's fine, but there's no need to get upset about it.

New skills, traits, gear, etc. can be earned without something so trivial as gaining a level. New raids, quests, epics, and systems can be added for the same level--if you won't do a quest unless it gives XP, it can't be that fun. Maybe it's time for a little self-examination.

Youre basically saying that if someone wont run a quest for the fun of it they need to selfexamine.My comment was that if you cant find fun in running an instance that is just as easyor boring then maybe they should selfexamine themselves.Also I never said that I want to run them for the journey.I prefer endgame.

Heres my guess.

The level cap will be raised all the way to 100. (Possibly to 95 with Gondor and then to 100 with Mordor.)
As for the rest of Middle-Earth, some of it will be added as an additional grind to already existing zones. So that way, it won't be as hard to go from levels 1-100 for new players and alts. Kind of like how Forochel was added as an easier way to get to 50, instead of going through Angmar.
For example, Minhiriath could be added as 50-56ish zone, so if people get frustrated with Moria, they can just go to Minhiriath.

The other part of Middle Earth will be added as a huge endgame. Places like Northern Mirkwood, The Iron Hills, Lonely Mountain, Dale, Grey Mountains, etc. will all be added as level 100 zones, with dozens of instances, deeds, etc.

Once again, just my guess.

I like the act of leveling itself, t motivates me to play the game and stay current with the community and it gets me actually looking into stats, otherwise I just pick the shiny pretty stuff to wear.

Also about that comment on Turtle, etc not being run, there's a Turtle run at least once every day. And a kinmate and myself ran 16th hall yesterday just because it was there. So older content becomes obsolete in the way that the armor rewards aren't particularly useful, but some of the armor sets are extremely pretty to look at, I use my Moria teal as cosmetic and asap I'll have the Orthanc gear as another cosmetic, that seems like a good enough reason to run old content when put with the other ones: Fur fun, you get to see the instances if you've never done them, like for myself I've never seen SG, LT, Warg Pens and many other of the instances just because they weren't run as they were relevant to me, which brings me to another point, you can run these instances with a lower leveled player to get them through it for gear or for a deed. That's why I've run GB 5+ tims in the last 2 months.

Originally Posted by Hecki

Not another thread....
What's the next thread?

"Say NO to YES!!!" !?

Actually, it was "say MAYBE to level cap increase!!!"

But, I wasn't being serious about it lol

At the moment it is eminently likely that a character will hit the old level cap of 65 before even reaching Mirkwood or Enedwaith ... both magnificent locations. I am a "mostly solo" player and enjoy the challenge of completing quests on-level. I also enjoy seeing new places in the game and working through the content on offer; someone has spent hours crafting these stories and it seems a terrible shame that a raise in level cap makes them stop being challenging. Also, the number of groups available for non-level cap content is significantly lower than for level-cap ... and if you want to do lower content with an on-level group? Forget about it.

I would love for there to be more releases like Enedwaith and fewer that raised the level cap. Not because I don't like the little "whoosh-tree" when I get a new level but because I want less of the world to be grey.

Incidentally I'm now levelling my second character to 75 (though I'm determined to work through Enedwaith properly this time), my first was a Warden which turned out to be a huge waste of time.

My quote:

New skills, traits, gear, etc. can be earned without something so trivial as gaining a level. New raids, quests, epics, and systems can be added for the same level--if you won't do a quest unless it gives XP, it can't be that fun. Maybe it's time for a little self-examination.

Your interpretation:

Youre basically saying that if someone wont run a quest for the fun of it they need to selfexamine.

I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. It's definitely NOT what I'm saying, or even implying. I think you might be taking that 1 sentence out of context of the conversation we've been having for 4 pages.

If someone will run a quest for XP, but WON'T run it for fun if they can't get XP, the quest is not fun enough for them. If the goal is not end-game, as the person I replied to stated, and the only goal is getting back the tiny bit of relative effectiveness taken away by the level cap increase, then all it really comes down is an addiction to perceived progress. Or at least an endorsement of a system that does the equivalent of taking 10 dollars away from you and giving it back to you 1 dollar at a time until you feel as though you've EARNED 10 dollars when in reality you're exactly where you started.

I hope that clears up the confusion.

one question:

what is the difference with a new tier of 75 equipment coming out (which make the old equipment "less valuable"), and an increased level cap with a new tier of equipment coming out (which make the old equipment "less valuable")?

the only thing I can think of is, that when the level cap is increased, the progression is reset. Currently, you need to have done raid skirmishes in order to do the tier 1 isengard instances in order to do the tier 2 isengard instances in order to do the draichog raid in order to do sarumon, and probably you need at least isengard equipment (instance sets, not raid sets) to be even a viable option to future instances without the increased level cap. this means that if a fresh 75 want to do something, he already needs to find a group for somewhat obsolete contants, that offers almost none reward for the well-geared. this isn't a level cap increase, but this increases the time needed before one can enjoy end-game contents. When rohan comes out and the level cap isn't increased, the instances would be impossible for a 75 who is ill-equipped (probably "only" having full draigoch and rank 10 virtues).

If however, the level cap is raised, there would be real progression and a reset in the required equipment for the top tier instances. This would mean that new 85 can do the top-tier instances, which results in less anoyances of people being too ill-equipped to go in a group, but doing it anyway, which let's the group wipe.

In a nutshell, I SAY YES TO LEVEL CAP INCREASE, for the sake of an accessable end-game.

Originally Posted by Frisco

If someone will run a quest for XP, but WON'T run it for fun if they can't get XP, the quest is not fun enough for them. If the goal is not end-game, as the person I replied to stated, and the only goal is getting back the tiny bit of relative effectiveness taken away by the level cap increase, then all it really comes down is an addiction to perceived progress. Or at least an endorsement of a system that does the equivalent of taking 10 dollars away from you and giving it back to you 1 dollar at a time until you feel as though you've EARNED 10 dollars when in reality you're exactly where you started.

I hope that clears up the confusion.

So, basically what you are saying is that endgame raiders should all do a little self-examination? Because according to almost every opposition to the lvl cap increase has been "But the gear and weapons that I worked so hard to get will be worthless." What happened to doing it for the fun of doing it. Same thing as questing to get experience instead of doing it for fun. Raiding is only worth it if you can get the best gear? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. I am a casual player. I do not end game raid, I like to group with people to help them out, not to just get the new best armor and weapons. I have fun doing lower lvl quests and instances, because i normally can't get a group to do them on level. I do not have a problem with doing quests for fun (there are plenty of quests that i do not want to do even when they give experience) I even run the old instances for fun. Most of them I have not seen, others I have done a lot, but will do them over again because they are fun to do. If I'm not mistaken, isn't this the same reason why end gamers were so mad when the Draig set was being offered to anyone (impossible grind or not) that if I can't have the best at all times the game isn't worth playing to me? I don't understand the hostility to Turbine for the lvl cap increase. If they don't increase the lvl and just release new gear that is better than the old gear, players will flame them for making the older content obsolete and not worth running. If they increase the lvl to make the new gear harder to get, they will get flamed because the older content is now obsolete. They can't win either way, and I would prefer they do it in a way that will give people a REASON to play, what ever that reason is. Just my 2c. You are welcome to argue all you want, and please flame away. I find it funny.

YES. That is all

Increasing the level cap is fine, but increasing it by 10 levels every time is utterly pointless. In RoI you literally had to do every single quest, and even then you'd run out of quests at 73 or 74. That's exceptionally poor design, and I also agree that a too high level cap can easily discourage new players.

So why 10 levels? Increasing the cap by 5 levels is enough, with more XP needed between each level and the possibility of being selective in which quests you want to complete. Having to do all the quests for level increases that don't even add that much to your character anyway is not good MMO-design in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Ernuvorn

So, basically what you are saying is that endgame raiders should all do a little self-examination? Because according to almost every opposition to the lvl cap increase has been "But the gear and weapons that I worked so hard to get will be worthless." What happened to doing it for the fun of doing it. Same thing as questing to get experience instead of doing it for fun. Raiding is only worth it if you can get the best gear? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. I am a casual player. I do not end game raid, I like to group with people to help them out, not to just get the new best armor and weapons. I have fun doing lower lvl quests and instances, because i normally can't get a group to do them on level. I do not have a problem with doing quests for fun (there are plenty of quests that i do not want to do even when they give experience) I even run the old instances for fun. Most of them I have not seen, others I have done a lot, but will do them over again because they are fun to do. If I'm not mistaken, isn't this the same reason why end gamers were so mad when the Draig set was being offered to anyone (impossible grind or not) that if I can't have the best at all times the game isn't worth playing to me? I don't understand the hostility to Turbine for the lvl cap increase. If they don't increase the lvl and just release new gear that is better than the old gear, players will flame them for making the older content obsolete and not worth running. If they increase the lvl to make the new gear harder to get, they will get flamed because the older content is now obsolete. They can't win either way, and I would prefer they do it in a way that will give people a REASON to play, what ever that reason is. Just my 2c. You are welcome to argue all you want, and please flame away. I find it funny.

I second that, completely. And +rep to the poster from me.

If they don't increase the lvl and just release new gear that is better than the old gear, players will flame them for making the older content obsolete and not worth running. If they increase the lvl to make the new gear harder to get, they will get flamed because the older content is now obsolete. They can't win either way, and I would prefer they do it in a way that will give people a REASON to play, what ever that reason is. Just my 2c. You are welcome to argue all you want, and please flame away. I find it funny.

Something tells me the definition of "flame" has been watered down, if it's being applied to this thread.

Your post makes sense, except that the premises aren't exactly true.

I don't remember any time in this game where players "flamed" Turbine for releasing new content and not raising the level cap.

When the Rift was released, it made most Helegrod gear obsolete, but there were other reasons people ran Helegrod.

When DN and the +15 radiance gear was released, I don't know of anyone "flaming" Turbine for making the Moria instance cluster and Vile Maw obsolete. People ran those instances for other reasons, still.

If they released a new raid at L75 with better gear, a new epic book, fun new landscape quests for non-endgame people to do, a few new skills and a new trait slot, I find it hard to believe that people would be flaming devs. It seems pretty masochistic to fight for a 10-level decrease in effectiveness just so you can spend time earning those 10 levels back when you could do the same quests that you'd do to regain those levels regardless of whether or not the cap was increased.

The only thing that would be missing is the animation when you change levels...and maybe having a set goal and the feeling of accomplishment. I think that's the core of MMO addiction--bright colors tricking our brains, giving us the feeling that we've accomplished something. If the game is no longer fun except when our brain releases that extra bit of dopamine for "accomplishing" something, it may be something to think about. Or not. Some people are fine with their addiction--and if that's how they like to live, they should do it. I know I spent a couple years happily addicted to LOTRO.

I hear people here saying "don't raise the level cap, just make a few new level 75 zones".

The only problem with that unless there is a sense of progression people will be bored with a new 75 zone in a matter of days, possibly hours.

In order to make a sense of progression for a level 75 zone Turbine would have to populate the new zone with nothing but elites and elite masters. Do you really want a new zone populated with nothing but 50k non-solo mobs?

I don't.

There has to be some sort of difficulty increase for the new zone, instead of adding 20k moral to the mobs I would rather that they just made the new mobs higher level.

Yes, we have to then grind new LI's, rank up our virtues, add a few levels to our skirmish pets, and grind out our warhorses.

Boo-hoo. It's an MMO. Grind is the name of the game. All we can ask is that Turbine makes the zone interesting and the mobs interesting so at least the grind is fun the first time through.

Originally Posted by Chanah

+ We have the lowest DPS in the game, bar none

Sorry but this is simply untrue.

See defiler/warleader/weaver

Originally Posted by Faithknight

The only problem with that unless there is a sense of progression people will be bored with a new 75 zone in a matter of days, possibly hours.

In order to make a sense of progression for a level 75 zone Turbine would have to populate the new zone with nothing but elites and elite masters. Do you really want a new zone populated with nothing but 50k non-solo mobs?

I don't.

There has to be some sort of difficulty increase for the new zone, instead of adding 20k moral to the mobs I would rather that they just made the new mobs higher level.

Talk about an exaggeration. The max morale of a mob from one level to the next is a few hundred--maybe 1000. So if in the next zones you put mobs that hit progressively harder and have progressively more hit points, it'll have the same effect without raising the cap. How much of any new zone is difficult, anyway? It's all quick-level solo trash quests to keep us busy for a couple days.

[/quote]Yes, we have to then grind new LI's, rank up our virtues, add a few levels to our skirmish pets, and grind out our warhorses.

Boo-hoo. It's an MMO. Grind is the name of the game. All we can ask is that Turbine makes the zone interesting and the mobs interesting so at least the grind is fun the first time through.[/quote]

If the zone is interesting and fun enough, people will do it regardless of whether they need XP or not. If they WON'T do it unless there's XP to be had, then it's not really fun in the first place.

Is it so bad that a few people are asking that devs put their time and funds toward FUN content instead of your average grind that's only fun because we're addicted to what even the haters refer to as only a "SENSE of progression"? And you call this "boo-hoo"?

Come on. Not everyone is so defeatist that when something sucks, we just grin and bear it.

YES to level cap increase!!!

Yes, kind of...

I'm all for level increases but I wish it wasn't so much! I think that for Rise of Isengard, the 5 levels would have sufficed.

Maybe 5 levels for these smaller expansions like SoM and RoI would suffice and big expansions like Moria and Rohan (if what they are promising is true) should be 10.

Originally Posted by timelf11

one question:

what is the difference with a new tier of 75 equipment coming out (which make the old equipment "less valuable"), and an increased level cap with a new tier of equipment coming out (which make the old equipment "less valuable")?

the only thing I can think of is, that when the level cap is increased, the progression is reset. Currently, you need to have done raid skirmishes in order to do the tier 1 isengard instances in order to do the tier 2 isengard instances in order to do the draichog raid in order to do sarumon, and probably you need at least isengard equipment (instance sets, not raid sets) to be even a viable option to future instances without the increased level cap. this means that if a fresh 75 want to do something, he already needs to find a group for somewhat obsolete contants, that offers almost none reward for the well-geared. this isn't a level cap increase, but this increases the time needed before one can enjoy end-game contents. When rohan comes out and the level cap isn't increased, the instances would be impossible for a 75 who is ill-equipped (probably "only" having full draigoch and rank 10 virtues).

If however, the level cap is raised, there would be real progression and a reset in the required equipment for the top tier instances. This would mean that new 85 can do the top-tier instances, which results in less anoyances of people being too ill-equipped to go in a group, but doing it anyway, which let's the group wipe.

In a nutshell, I SAY YES TO LEVEL CAP INCREASE, for the sake of an accessable end-game.

Adding new equipment at level 75 doesn't invalidate the old stuff. When OD was added you still saw tons of people with moria, BG and DN armor because even though it may not have been quite as strong as OD armor it was so close that for all intents and purposes the difference was negligible. You could still PvP effectively with the lesser armor, you could run end game raids with the lesser armor. As soon as RoI came out and you got the quest reward items from the level 70 epics, all that gear (moria, helegrod, DN, OD, BG) was utterly useless.

The same is true now, you can wear skirm raid teal drops and be fine, you can wear 5 set draig and be fine (I do) or you can go for 5-set ToO armor and be fine, you can wear PvP armor and be fine. As soon as you hit level 80 all of that will be redundant.

I am not sure how the end game will be more accessible at level 85? Could you run Draig T2 in greens and purples when you hit 75 and draig is the easiest raid since turtle? You are just going to make that grind start over again, you will be running 3 and 6 mans to get better gear, you will be spending tons of time farming rare crafting ingredients for teal crafted pieces, you will be doing more skirm raids to even enable you to have a shot at T1 raiding.

If you keep level the level 75 cap or just raise it to level 80, current end game gear will be relevant still, a 75 FA legendary would be stronger than a 80 3rd age, at level 85 that won't be the case so all those worn symbols will be thrown away.

Originally Posted by Faithknight

I hear people here saying "don't raise the level cap, just make a few new level 75 zones".

The only problem with that unless there is a sense of progression people will be bored with a new 75 zone in a matter of days, possibly hours.

In order to make a sense of progression for a level 75 zone Turbine would have to populate the new zone with nothing but elites and elite masters. Do you really want a new zone populated with nothing but 50k non-solo mobs?

I don't.

There has to be some sort of difficulty increase for the new zone, instead of adding 20k moral to the mobs I would rather that they just made the new mobs higher level.

Yes, we have to then grind new LI's, rank up our virtues, add a few levels to our skirmish pets, and grind out our warhorses.

Boo-hoo. It's an MMO. Grind is the name of the game. All we can ask is that Turbine makes the zone interesting and the mobs interesting so at least the grind is fun the first time through.

That is just pure and utter ignorant BS.

When Enedwaith and the OD instance cluster came out they didn't increase level and people still quested and deeded like crazy in those areas and ran the instances all the time.

Originally Posted by Traur

Adding new equipment at level 75 doesn't invalidate the old stuff. When OD was added you still saw tons of people with moria, BG and DN armor because even though it may not have been quite as strong as OD armor it was so close that for all intents and purposes the difference was negligible. You could still PvP effectively with the lesser armor, you could run end game raids with the lesser armor. As soon as RoI came out and you got the quest reward items from the level 70 epics, all that gear (moria, helegrod, DN, OD, BG) was utterly useless.

That was before the stat cap was removed. If there still would be a cap, running with 850 will as a tactical class wouldn't be bad, now there is not such a thing, and new tiers of equipment can improve your output in terms of dps and healing, in contradiction to when ITA was released, when the only upgrade came in the form of more morale, power and "not necessary" stats. Now however, if turbine doesn't release a new level cap with the expansion, they will have to think of another kind of progression. The only thing I can think of would be improving stats on gear, there isn't any cap. this would mean that you will see classes with insane high >2500 in their primary stat, which would be required to defeat the new 100000k bosses with attacks capable of destroying every now existing tank. And resulting in fresh 75, who haven't set foot in Rohan, to be raid-killers and the beginning of gear-checkes to avoid this. This is the way some other MMO's chose to go with progression, and this is the way you create elitism and ninja lootting.

Originally Posted by Traur

That is just pure and utter ignorant BS.

When Enedwaith and the OD instance cluster came out they didn't increase level and people still quested and deeded like crazy in those areas and ran the instances all the time.

Exactly right!

Leveling and getting new skills is fun, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by arvaethor1

Leveling and getting new skills is fun, plain and simple.

Sure they are. No one's arguing that.

But there's other things that are just as fun, too. The argument is that raising the level cap has drawbacks to it, as well; things like making old content trivial and therefore not as much fun, and forcing everyone (rather than giving them a choice) to regrind their gear, and homogenizing everyone rather than giving more options - and those drawbacks arent worth it, at this point, when a horizontal expansion would still provide lots of fun, new stuff for us to do.

Eventually you do have to raise the level cap, when there's just too much stuff at L75 and its getting stale. But we're nowhere near that point yet, we just got to 75. Think about how long we were at 60, then 65, and there was still plenty of content to explore.

Level cap raise, yes eventually, but not nearly yet.