Thema: Say YES to level cap increase!!!

Zitat von timelf11

That was before the stat cap was removed. If there still would be a cap, running with 850 will as a tactical class wouldn't be bad, now there is not such a thing, and new tiers of equipment can improve your output in terms of dps and healing, in contradiction to when ITA was released, when the only upgrade came in the form of more morale, power and "not necessary" stats. Now however, if turbine doesn't release a new level cap with the expansion, they will have to think of another kind of progression. The only thing I can think of would be improving stats on gear, there isn't any cap. this would mean that you will see classes with insane high >2500 in their primary stat, which would be required to defeat the new 100000k bosses with attacks capable of destroying every now existing tank. And resulting in fresh 75, who haven't set foot in Rohan, to be raid-killers and the beginning of gear-checkes to avoid this. This is the way some other MMO's chose to go with progression, and this is the way you create elitism and ninja lootting.

We already have elitism and ninja looting - when was the last time you saw a mini or RK with 5k morale and power main heal a T2 Orthanc wing? they would get destroyed - gear checking for better or worse already exists with the current end game and as long as there is challenging end game it will continue. Heck T2 3-man troll used to fairly consistently one-shot healers with less than 6k morale during the last phase of challenge with his random aggro ranged attack.

Currently the grind goes: quest reward -> crafted teal, skirm raid teal and instance purples and teals -> draigoch armor -> U5 armor
When you hit 75 you have quest reward armor or a few crafted pieces, then you get more crafted pieces and maybe some skirm raid teal drops, then you get draig armor set and then U5 armor set or you may skip directly to U5 armor.

When you add 10 levels what you are going to end up with is that U5 armor will be useless, even if they don't do another stat revamp you will still be losing out on massive upgrades to your primary and secondary stats. So the grind will go quest rewards, crafted (regardless if they add to westfold or create a new tier), instance and basic raid rewards, top raid set.

U5 and ITA both added content without changing levels, and people ran those things for the marginal upgrades. Right now pretty much the only instances I run is Draig and Foundry, if you added more I would add those to the list if they suit me and give good rewards for how long they are. If you add 10 more levels I will stop running Draig and Foundry completely and that would be a shame.

/Signed.

I would like a level increase at the end of this year, becouse that's when the increase will be.

I won't argue with people who don't wan't a level increase.

But yes, for me I like a game the most when I can level and have a fealing of doing Progress, I didn't get that doing Enedwaith.
In one year I can reach max-level and try to get it all and maby succseed and by that time I could be okay with a level increase.

That's why I am okay with level Increase.

Zitat von droid

Sure they are. No one's arguing that.

But there's other things that are just as fun, too. The argument is that raising the level cap has drawbacks to it, as well; things like making old content trivial and therefore not as much fun, and forcing everyone (rather than giving them a choice) to regrind their gear, and homogenizing everyone rather than giving more options - and those drawbacks arent worth it, at this point, when a horizontal expansion would still provide lots of fun, new stuff for us to do.

Eventually you do have to raise the level cap, when there's just too much stuff at L75 and its getting stale. But we're nowhere near that point yet, we just got to 75. Think about how long we were at 60, then 65, and there was still plenty of content to explore.

Level cap raise, yes eventually, but not nearly yet.

Grinding is the carrot on the stick for both the player and the MMO operator. There comes a point where "Upgrade X" is pretty much the same as "Upgrade Y" at which point your players stop grinding and start looking for other games to play. That is why most MMO companies raise the levels so you are pitted against a higher level challenge and enticed into grinding higher level gear. Lets face it, if you only play a main, how long does the actual quest content and new exploration last?

There is something about treading into a new zone and observing creatures that could wipe the floor with you and feeling apprehensive. I don't get that when I walk into a linear zone that offers the same risk, only in a different setting. I don't have that goal to gain new gear and levels so I can not easily be picked off by the local creatures.

Mobs with special abilities, but at the same level? Sentry's in Dunland anyone? Oh how I love being bounced 50 feet every fight by a creature I know I will best in the end (sarcasm intended). Wait, we give them far more morale instead so they take 2 minutes to burn down instead of 15 seconds. Trolls anyone?

With linear progression we get to kill mobs with more morale, some unique tactics with different skins and more quests to burn through for what rewards? Please don't say a more advanced AA system like Everquest has where you spend 3/4 of your time grinding points for abilities, sub abilities, sub-sub class abilities, special abilities and more that are either required for raiding if you wish to join a raid kin or simply convenient to Joe Average while they feel stuck in a level with no viable advancement.

I'll take the levels, thank you!

Zitat von Zarador

Mobs with special abilities, but at the same level? Wait, we give them far more morale instead so they take 2 minutes to burn down instead of 15 seconds.

Or let's give them... higher dps so they can kill you as easily as eg. 82lv mob so the fight is pretty much... identical?

Zitat von Zarador

Please don't say a more advanced AA system like Everquest has where you spend 3/4 of your time grinding points for abilities, sub abilities, sub-sub class abilities, special abilities and more that are either required for raiding if you wish to join a raid kin or simply convenient to Joe Average while they feel stuck in a level with no viable advancement.

I'll take the levels, thank you!

But... we already *have* such system in LOTRO - and I do not mean LIs. Just take a look at 1-50lv range.

We have (quite unimportant pre-cap) virtues & racial advancement and (rather important) class & legendary advancement. By the time you enter Fornost or Carn Dum, it would be very nice to have *some of them* unlocked. Was there anything wrong with that system? If not, what is the reason we have only virtues "advancement" (but... capped) left and everything else is either barter-able or pretty much completes itself (exceptions noted) by the time we are near current level cap? +10 levels for skirmish marks then?

So basically, both systems exist at the same time, then in 50-60s one of them, I daresay more interesting one, offering customisation and more class roles, withers.

We are left with LIs, one of the reasons level cap raise generates so many facepalms, and with levels. Sorry, I meant "10 x bar, filled with abstract numbers", because well... that's it - not even a mini-game, just... xp-meter. Everything it offers (bpe, aggro, small stat buff etc) is either hard to notice or achievable with direct improvement - if it's made available.

I know game is in itself advancement-meter, filled with abstract numbers, the convention we all choose to participate in. But after reading through threads in many forums, about many games, I still cannot understand what is the unique value of LOTRO xp-meter, mostly because many decide to state their preferences instead, as if the fact I like chocolate explains anything :/ If illusion of level-exclusive upgrade is the only reason, why is it preferable, especially once we are *aware* it is just "illusion of exclusive", certainly not in "TINA" sense AND with various negative effects to the game?

Zitat von Zarador

Wait, we give them far more morale instead so they take 2 minutes to burn down instead of 15 seconds.

Zitat von Ferthcott

Or let's give them... higher dps so they can kill you as easily as eg. 82lv mob so the fight is pretty much... identical?

So how do you then explain to a player that going into Dunland where the mobs are say level 75 in their abilities, is not the same as going into the new zone where the mobs will do far greater damage so be prepared? Prepare? How? What is it I need for tha, that I don't have now?

Now, going back to the "don't trivialize the content by level" argument, how would the mobs in Dunland not be trivialized if I am now capable of taking out the mobs in the new region that have far higher damage capabilities?

So in the end, the game would not be making the Dunland mobs any less trivial, just conned the same as the new regions mobs. The content is still trivial to the player besting the content in the new zone, just not listed as such.

Of course that player unprepared for the new zone, since they just left the previous tier and are looking to expand on their adventure might pick the new area as the next step in progression and get squashed over and over again with level 70 range creatures with level 82 abilities. Basically, unmarked Elites to them.

Seems a bit confusing of a system just to keep grey content blue.

Zitat von Zarador

So how do you then explain to a player that going into Dunland where the mobs are say level 75 in their abilities, is not the same as going into the new zone where the mobs will do far greater damage so be prepared? Prepare? How? What is it I need for tha, that I don't have now?

In similar way challenge quest was explained in Mirkwood? In quest description nobody apparently reads, despite so many claims about "the journey"? (yeah, this is general rant, I kinda felt like it )

Zitat von Zarador

Now, going back to the "don't trivialize the content by level" argument, how would the mobs in Dunland not be trivialized if I
am now capable of taking out the mobs in the new region that have far higher damage capabilities?

BPE (or "miss"?) & crit mechanics related to level remain the same, so difficulty change is not that significant as venturing back to Mirkwood. And in sense of "but it *changes* after all", well it also changes once you acquire crafted crit gear, once you improve your virtues or switch to new LI. It was probably even more visible because majority of people I know refused to tinker with 65lv LIs until they got 75lv 3rd age and whoa, that was some dps jump without new level cap.

I do not claim static cap updates do not make previous content easier. They do, but it is at slower pace, and they offer improvements even without xp-meter progress and again, negative effects still happening slower, so why is that so critical?

Truth be told, there is also cynicism on my side of the fence. There are many variants of the future, but think about three alternatives:

1. we get lv cap increase, previous instance cluster is left forgotten (OD->RoI case) and unimproved, LI system still sucks, majors/passives lotteries reign supreme; content made grey by RoI becomes Fornost unless you happen to level up with a static/big group of people
2. we get static update, previous cluster is left forgotten and unimproved, but still remains viable (SoM->OD case), LI system still sucks, though we either acquire - or ignore - rare better ages or (with 1st ages already available in U5) run partial regrinds for eg. relic tiers
3. we get lv cap increase, previous instances are scaled and reitemized with different stuff, we are presented with a choice of alternative improvements for characters and leveling zones, LI system magically transforms into not-sucking, though still grindy in certain areas so Turbine makes some money, but without irritating lotteries

I do know RoR = announced cap jump, so #2 is lala-land already, but... which option is realistic one, considering recent past? Which option is "I wish"? Which option is the least irritating & probably cheaper than others? How can I lose the feeling 10lv jump is the laziest, make-believe kind of "advancement" from creators with all issues above left unchecked? Because, hey... I will accept "level cap jump" in a second if it comes with "I wish" option - but the question is, why is it desirable, defended, preferable by so many, if it arrives in "realistic" version?

Levels are just a metric for game progress, the thing that keeps players interested is new mechanics and abilities which change the way they can do battle, defend themselves, and control their environment. You could easily gate gear and quests by previous content, for instance certain bree deeds must be completed before you can access lone-lands quests, but instead content grants experience and content itself is gated by experience.

The point I'm making here is that levels are simply a way to pace players along the story being told and to motivate players who would otherwise jump the end-game content to actually do the questing content that Developer time was put into. When Enedwaith came out at level 65 it may not have had a level increase to pace players but it motivated players to do quests because of gear gated by reputation. The Ost Dunhoth cluster had gear gated by medallions and tokens instead of levels. The only benefit to this was that players did not have to re-grind gear to gain access to the new content.

Regardless of what Turbine (or any other MMO) releases as content there will be a pacing mechanism involved be it leveling, crafting, reputation, quest completion etc. What both this and the other level cap thread are basically saying is YES/NO to forcing us to do something in order to do or gain something else, which in the end comes down to Turbine's decisions on how to make a game which keeps a player playing both because of enjoyment and because of pacing, and leveling is a tried and true mechanism to keep players playing and prevent content burn-out.

EDIT: If Turbine scaled old instances they would keep players interested for even longer because even more content is available at level cap.

Zitat von Zephyriat

So why 10 levels? Increasing the cap by 5 levels is enough, with more XP needed between each level and the possibility of being selective in which quests you want to complete. Having to do all the quests for level increases that don't even add that much to your character anyway is not good MMO-design in my opinion.

So what you are saying is that 5 levels is enough for a new area twice the size of MoM. Yes? MoM released with 10 levels as well and it was pretty huge. You want to level in an area that's twice the size and cut the levels in half. Well if you like that kind of thing I can't really argue against it.

The design is the one thing all MMO currently struggle under. Its not just lotro. Its the way the games will most likely be until someone reinvents the genre (as many hope GW2 will do) and then maybe we can progress away from the current standard.

I'm very excited about the new level increase. A friend of mine has a small game called Eternal-Lands.com and actually they have no limit on levels. Of course the dynamics are different but the point is that level increase does not hurt the game. It will only make it more interesting and motivate many to play more.. maybe too much! LOL! Don't forget real life peeps.. take a walk, shower, go to work, school, clean the house, spend time with famile, etc.. and balance everything in your life. Yay to all the changes coming to LOTRO this year! Absolutely fantastic. One more thing, greater dps roles for Minstrels (most fun class in game).. time that a mini gets the official recognition of being dps/healing class, thus promoting the option to switch roles like the RK has or Captain has.

Zitat von Jassiminn

So what you are saying is that 5 levels is enough for a new area twice the size of MoM. Yes? MoM released with 10 levels as well and it was pretty huge. You want to level in an area that's twice the size and cut the levels in half.

The quote was "twice the size of Moria". That doesn't include Eregion, which was part of MoM and the 50-60 leveling curve. It also doesn't include LothLorien, which was originally planned to be part of MoM but didn't make it in time; and is now used by most people for 2-3 levels.

Maybe they could make couple extra pieces LI, maybe the helmet and the shoulders and that can increase your stats in the new area.

Zitat von Yosoff

The quote was "twice the size of Moria". That doesn't include Eregion, which was part of MoM and the 50-60 leveling curve. It also doesn't include LothLorien, which was originally planned to be part of MoM but didn't make it in time; and is now used by most people for 2-3 levels.

I was here for all of that as well and can remember Originally I had thought at least eregion was part of MoM, well it released at the same time anyways. But even without eregion, MoM is still pretty large.

People that use lothlorien for only 2-3 levels seem silly to me. Considering how quickly one can actually level there without even seriously trying. When it was fully release I casually went from 56 to 65 in days just doing the quests on my not overpowered mini soloing the whole thing. I remember it clearly since I could actually fight mobs that conned higher than blue (since MoM) solo without worrying about dying 1/2 the time.

It's a level based game <shrugs> levels are always going to increase whether we like it or not. It's simply part of the game. Denying it is silly.

SAY YES TO level cap increase!!!

If we don't increase it then many players will simply become bored. There won't be any reason to quest in the new areas except for raids and new equipment.

I don't know why there wouldn't be an increase. Not only that, but now that they have changed the way that gear is aquired there will be less grind for getting new gear as the Medallions/Seals/Marks will be transferable to level 85 gear.

/signed

"YES"

I'm all for it.

My main on Ellendilmir was at level cap for many, many months. So all I could do with him and benefit from was the constant LI Grind, then skirmishes. Honestly? Level caps allow for players to still feel a sense of accomplishment when that little "ding" happens. Even at level 65, I look forward to seeing Maliosi hit 66. Is it an illusion of progress? No. It's a visible representation of the journey itself.

I put this to you all.

If Turbine didn't raise the level cap beyond 85.

Then instituted instance gating a la Radiance.... Hmmm.. This is starting to sound familiar. People wouldn't run the older content any more, they'd only run that which would be needed to get the rep/radiance/whatever needed to enter those newer instances.

And we'd be back in the old trap of "How much radiance do you have? It's not enough to run the Watcher with us."

Do people not realise how freaking boring levelling up is?

It's the biggest grind of them all and the only one which is strictly necessary to experience all the content. It's just the same 3 quests over and over and over hundreds if not thousands of times.

Those in favour think repeating the same thing over and over again at a higher level is "new content", you've got to be insane. The only 'new' content are the varied instances and specifically the boss fight mechanics which aren't all just tank and spank.

I want to do the end game instances, I want to do stuff with other people working as a team to beat challenges impossible for a single person, but of my 3 previous level capped 65s only 1 has made it to 75 because it's just too much of a chore to do on my alts, so am unable to do the stuff I want. Raising the cap again will almost certainly kill any languishing desire I have to play.

Zitat von Korgain

Do people not realise how freaking boring levelling up is?

It's the biggest grind of them all and the only one which is strictly necessary to experience all the content. It's just the same 3 quests over and over and over hundreds if not thousands of times.

Those in favour think repeating the same thing over and over again at a higher level is "new content", you've got to be insane. The only 'new' content are the varied instances and specifically the boss fight mechanics which aren't all just tank and spank.

I want to do the end game instances, I want to do stuff with other people working as a team to beat challenges impossible for a single person, but of my 3 previous level capped 65s only 1 has made it to 75 because it's just too much of a chore to do on my alts, so am unable to do the stuff I want. Raising the cap again will almost certainly kill any languishing desire I have to play.

So your all that matters?
Youlonly like end game and raids...Thats fine your choice....
Other people prefer Questing in groups or solo and like the added challange of the increased levels.....
Basic Game mechanics of MMO's always lead to Level Increases.....

SAY YES TO LEVEL CAP INCREASE.....PLAY MORE STRIVE MORE Do not limit yourslf

Zitat von Korgain

Do people not realise how freaking boring levelling up is?

Not at all.

Zitat von Korgain

Those in favour think repeating the same thing over and over again at a higher level is "new content", you've got to be insane. The only 'new' content are the varied instances and specifically the boss fight mechanics which aren't all just tank and spank.

So instead of doing more and more quests - each one different, many with rich Tolkien lore behind it and some just plain funny you prefer to do "sophisticated" content by repeating same instances and raid over and over and over. And over. And over. Well, good for you, keep doing that. Just don't complain that the game is aimed to the casual players first and foremost and only then to the hardcore elitist raiders - who are the ones doing more grind anyway.

Zitat von Malachi108

Not at all.


So instead of doing more and more quests - each one different, many with rich Tolkien lore behind it and some just plain funny you prefer to do "sophisticated" content by repeating same instances and raid over and over and over. And over. And over. Well, good for you, keep doing that. Just don't complain that the game is aimed to the casual players first and foremost and only then to the hardcore elitist raiders - who are the ones doing more grind anyway.

+ Rep
.....

Zitat von Korgain

Do people not realise how freaking boring levelling up is?

It's the biggest grind of them all and the only one which is strictly necessary to experience all the content. It's just the same 3 quests over and over and over hundreds if not thousands of times.

Those in favour think repeating the same thing over and over again at a higher level is "new content", you've got to be insane. The only 'new' content are the varied instances and specifically the boss fight mechanics which aren't all just tank and spank.

I want to do the end game instances, I want to do stuff with other people working as a team to beat challenges impossible for a single person, but of my 3 previous level capped 65s only 1 has made it to 75 because it's just too much of a chore to do on my alts, so am unable to do the stuff I want. Raising the cap again will almost certainly kill any languishing desire I have to play.

That sucks. I really feel for you. You have demonstrated a level of sanity that is beyond my own. I don't know why I would ever want my character to progress when I can just sit stagnantly repeating Raids for different, but similar gear.

Yes please !

I like leveling, it most likely will add a skill or two ! And new challenges. Always good ! ToO Is for some kins already a farm T1

YES!

Zitat von NickStern

So your all that matters?
Other people prefer Questing in groups or solo and like the added challange of the increased levels.....

What "added challenge" ? Mobs with slightly higher morale/dps? You do not NEED levels for that. Questing? Do you NEED xp bar for THAT? Character upgrade? In what sense, new items? Yeah, totally need levels. New skills? I guess you managed to miss virtues, legendaries, traits upgrades that were only partially connected to levels. And even then levels were just gating system for them. Please, no more funny stuff about "xp bar being representation of the journey". This whole game is representation of the journey, unless I missed the part where I travel to Bree on my own, levels are just arbitrary & simplified part with very limited function (in this game at least...) and NO unique value and in present state of the game bring more illusions than bonuses.

Edit: Ah, yes, I missed another meaning of the "journey"... We all *had to* see upgrading traitlines/legendaries/even LIs, so it's impossible to pretend - all of them improved characters, therefore gave "journey" that symbolic meaning. They even meant "journey" for the player, new skills were unlocked only with some effort, at least some bothered to read description and learned to use new functionality. And they were coming one trait, one legendary after another, eventually unlocking more powerful ones, presenting with a chance to figure out new roles and ways to help a group AND with a learning curve. THAT was progression, levels only served as a way to divide content above into chunks, NOT as a significant upgrade on their own. Could we please stop pretending they were? :/

SoM & RoI brought ... what? Levels, mostly "Improved" version of old skills & unrelated stuff like uncapping stats. RoR will bring... levels and WHAT? Mounted Bugbat? Is that the "journey" and "progression" for characters now? Is that something to be so thankful about, so Turbine feels next expansion might as well use the same "Hey, let's add some levels and call it progression, fans will eat it anyway" route?

Zitat von NickStern

Basic Game mechanics of MMO's always lead to Level Increases.....

Wrong. Limited design always "has to lead" to level increase. Limited imagination always leads to repetition. Limited expectations always lead to being happy with the cheaper & lazier option. Which I guess makes people we pay very happy. Less work for the same money...

Zitat von NickStern

Do not limit yourslf

That's new definition of irony...

Zitat von Iorionael

Having just dinged 68 with my latest alt, I haven't even finished Mirkwood yet, not looked at enedwaith or touched RoI. I fully expect to only have 5 levels or so of content to do in RoI when I've finished up the epics and mopped up the rest of Mirkwood. There is a choice of how to level from 65 to 75 now. I think the problem with having to do RoI to get to 75 was only for characters already at the 65 cap. I don't think it's a problem any more. You may need to do some of it, but certainly not all, so you can pick and choose which parts of RoI you want to do.

I think this puts the level raise in perspective. When RoI released I had three toons ready to go into the new zone and level up. They had nothing left to do behind them, and yeah, by the time I got my third one to 75 I felt a little burned out on the new content. However, I just started leveling a fourth alt, lvl 65, who is just starting the quest lines in Enedwaith, and who has quite a bit left to finish up in Mirkwood. This toon will be a totally different leveling experience as a result ... in all likelihood I'll hit the cap well before my first three toons did.

Zitat von Ferthcott

SoM & RoI brought ... what? Levels, mostly "Improved" version of old skills & unrelated stuff like uncapping stats. RoR will bring... levels and WHAT? Mounted Bugbat? Is that the "journey" and "progression" for characters now? Is that something to be so thankful about, so Turbine feels next expansion might as well use the same "Hey, let's add some levels and call it progression, fans will eat it anyway" route?

What you are failing to consider is what happens when a game with LotRO's structure does away with level cap increases.

Imagine if you will that the cap was still 50, xpacks simply brought new skills, legendaries and gear. Now imagine starting to play LotRO today, you level to 50 and have eriador gear. Whilst everyone else has RoI gear. So what now? People will be left so far behind in gear terms they will be frustrated and leave.

As an example just look at Rift. The grind to get gear good enough to be vaguely competitive nevermind competitive with those who have been at cap for a long time is horrendous. There is basically no PvP for a good month or two until you have suffered the horrible grind to get gear while getting 'pwned' by top ranks.

Are there solutions to these problems? Probably, but most of them revolve around either reducing the gap between fresh 50 gear and 3 years down the line 50 gear (which is offensive for longterm players and doesnt give a sense of progression) or automatically granting fresh 50s updated and competitive gear (reducing the feeling of progression for fresh 50s).

Rift has only seen one 'expansion' so far, but personally I felt motivation to actually quest through the new zone hard to find, and this despite the Planar Attunement system (effectively leveling up but to gain .2 dps or 1 stat every couple of levels).


The other point is that LotRO is a game with a traditional player base who by and large love seeing new areas and quests etc. I would be willing to put my house on the vast, vast majority of players here in LotRO actively welcoming new levels, new landscapes etc.

Zitat von Bels_illuminati

What you are failing to consider is what happens when a game with LotRO's structure does away with level cap increases.

I am not, sadly. The main reason I am against level cap increase is indeed LOTRO's current structure. LI lotteries & stealing your progress & forgotten content & lack of decent non-LI character progression after 1-50lv, *especially* in complexity/options. Until that is taken care of new level cap brings nothing irreplacable AND takes away something else.

Or, as an alternative, I suggest removing 5 skills, 5 outfits, 5 mounts, 5 crafting tiers, gold, vault slots, from each character with each expansion and offer them back after exactly the same kind of grind they were obtained with. Preferably in grey level zone with the exact same questlines. Until that happens, part of new landscape is impossible to complete properly, with mobs using "I win" button if you or someone in your group lack those components.

That is how broken LI "optional" system feels when "translated". Oh, if U6 is designed around having skirm soldier... just remember to force people to grind new soldier from scratch Turbine, call it "Veteran Soldier" for landscape - it is like leveling after all and so many people love it...

/bitter

Zitat von Bels_illuminati

Imagine if you will that the cap was still 50, xpacks simply brought new skills, legendaries and gear. Now imagine starting to play LotRO today, you level to 50 and have eriador gear. Whilst everyone else has RoI gear. So what now? People will be left so far behind in gear terms they will be frustrated and leave.

I was under the impression that even @ lv 65 we *were* more or less at lv50 with some utility improvements hidden in "mobs 20 levels below hit me only when I am unlucky" and with relative lack of new skills covered by numerous class revamps. There were additional ways to improve character as well, though declining or even constantly renedered obsolete (LI).

What did we get with RoI levels? Uncapping stats? So... in fact we *were* pushed into gear improvements even further, nothing new, the only thing that changed was magnitude of bonuses. Take RoI level cap increase away, do we lose anything significant? We are still improving via gear only - is fresh, gearless 75 oh-so-more powerful and even slightly more complex than fresh, gearless 65?

What will we get with RoR levels then? Mini-game in selected zones? Take level increase away - what do we lose?

What will we get with next xpac if they still insist on no-brainer level cap increase? Yeah... That's my issue with level cap increase: it is being treated like "it has to happen, there is no alternative" AND it is being delivered as more and more solitary version of "character upgrade" with each xpac. Which, even ignoring state of LI system, is a bad, bad joke.

Also, being behind gear-wise is not exactly different than being behind level-wise. Imagine next xpac, upgrading level cap to 100 and grim perspective of new player (alts?) even with facerolling leveling system we already have (oh, wait, so beloved level cap raise grants what... two casual weeks of "improvements"? Nooooooooo!). Hey, and there was a possibility to run OD in Moria armour and circumvent middle-sets as well. And yet, we can't run ToO @ lv 70. There was even a way to get Helegrod/Annu sets without actual raiding. Do you think many people bothered with LI regrind between 65 and 75 for example? So it is 10 levels of fake improvements-after-nerfing (or of almost nothing if someone decided to keep most of 65lv gear till 75), and then - real grind, gear grind. So... what did we achieve with level cap raise after all?

I am wondering if this is all coming from some skewed perspective... "Yeah! I am spending hours on gaining few levels and this is SO diferent than upgrading my LI! It is not like that set of legacies might actually make me stronger than xp bar...". But if someone is actually aware how lacking level "bonuses" are, this is no longer a matter of perspective, feelings or PoV - I am not sure how to dispute "I know sky is blue, but I feel it is whiter than sun" stance. And that's how many reasonable people look like when they agree levels bring nothing specific to the table and immediately add that leveling "feels" better than upgrading gear or traits or skills or virtues or LIs... How? It is as brainless as virtue grind with similar gain/effort and if someone enjoys the game for its story/landscape/RP, xp bar fills as side-effect and it doesn't matter what level cap is, as long as there is a way to improve character. Sure, Turbine might as well block access to RoR zone for anyone below certain level, then do the same with Gondor. Does that mean levels suddenly become more important? Or just another case of cheap/lazy design?

Zitat von Bels_illuminati

Are there solutions to these problems? Probably, but most of them revolve around either reducing the gap between fresh 50 gear and 3 years down the line 50 gear (which is offensive for longterm players and doesnt give a sense of progression) or automatically granting fresh 50s updated and competitive gear (reducing the feeling of progression for fresh 50s).

Yes, there is, we already have it in LOTRO - it is called 3-man => 6-man => raid gear progression and it is present even now, battered, bruised and confused, after RoI cap increase. Crafters *could* be real alternative as well whenever Turbine decides to make it so.

Also, while I appreciate using pvp as example, I think it is not really applicable to LOTRO crippled version, in many cases lack of 3 levels is a death warrant only because level artificially gates gear AND there is no decent pvp gear progression - not because levels make you so much powerful without miss/crit buff in pvp.

Zitat von Bels_illuminati

The other point is that LotRO is a game with a traditional player base who by and large love seeing new areas and quests etc. I would be willing to put my house on the vast, vast majority of players here in LotRO actively welcoming new levels, new landscapes etc.

With F2P introduction I wouldn't be so certain that "traditional" is still a word for this group. Casual would probably be less risky - but I do not see a relation between casual and "xp bar is all that feels like proper progression to me, I am unable to state unique bonuses but I have plenty of opinions so it's not needed" kind of crowd. I hope your "traditional" version does not include them either :/

Zitat von NickStern

So your all that matters?
Youlonly like end game and raids...Thats fine your choice....
Other people prefer Questing in groups or solo and like the added challange of the increased levels.....
Basic Game mechanics of MMO's always lead to Level Increases.....

SAY YES TO LEVEL CAP INCREASE.....PLAY MORE STRIVE MORE Do not limit yourslf

Except you're not. In traditional MMOs, toons gain strength as they go up in level. Not so in LoTRO. Your toon stops growing at 50, and becomes totally gear-dependant. One of the worst moves to counter this was the recent loss of stat caps - and accuracy passives! Hunters and RKs got badly inadvertently nerfed. Wardens got full-out broken and still aren't fixed because our dev doesn't want to give us decent mitigations, and because finesse is an absolute killer for wardens. But if you aren't going to make toons more powerful, then you have to do things like this.

But going 20 levels in the space of a year is way too much, especially with what we've seen, and how badly off some classes still are. Do you really love grinding all that much just to get new gear and new LIs? Because that's all you're doing. Well - I guess in RoR you'll have to grind a skirmish pet and a war horse as well, so that's more grind.

If you see that as striving - more power to you, I guess. Me - I'm still waiting for the fix that'll make my class a mediocre tank and a mediocre DPS. Not excited about that, less so realising that as soon as the level cap goes up it's likely to break again - along with God only knows what else.

Since the genie can't be put back in the bottle, I'd much prefer a 5 level increase. That would've made this last expac much less painful, and it would still leave some content that's not obsolete for RoR.

Yes, please.

/signed

Not signed,Level cap increase needs to be in the past,come out with new faction or an alternate advancement of some kind to grind towards that unlocks new moves/spells.

Not signed. I am anti-level increase for the following reasons:

1. Older areas of the game (Forochel, Angmar, Moria, Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Enedwaith, etc etc) become increasingly irrelevant with each cap increase, apart from alt levelling. Why develop and build all these wonderful areas, only to make them meaningless? Why build obsolescence into these areas of the game?

2. Level cap = unnecessary grind. Honestly, grinding higher caps is just busy work, meant to keep us pouring money into Turbine/WB's pockets.

To those who say "there is nothing to do" except grind to another cap level: party with friends and kin in an Inn, take a walk (I have walked, yes walked, from Forochel to Endewaith), rp, raid, explore, fish, farm and cook, smoke pipeweed while watching the sunset, etc etc.

Why level cap increase is great

- Gives Solo Players a large amounts of content to do.

- Makes exploring new areas/regions more exciting and fun, I mean who would enjoy travelling through Rohan at lvl75 if it was only level 70-75 zone? Firstly you would blaze through the content, the area wouldn't feel challenging and you'll end up asking why there wasn't a level cap increase to start with.

- If level cap wasn't introduced with each expansion, I would personally feel that the expansion would be lacking, since our characters aren't really advancing or gaining new skills/abilities, just entering a new region and continuing the epic quest without any advancement.

A large amount of content? I'm not a power leveller by any stretch, and I went from 65-75 in RoI in five days. That includes completed quest and exploration deeds in all but one zone, and all but two of the slayer deeds completed.

It's not a large amount of content, and it's gratingly linear and far too rigidly gated. I don't like the expac at all, but even if you do, would it have been bad in some way if it were a level 65 zone and you were level 65?

Zitat von Chanah

A large amount of content? I'm not a power leveller by any stretch, and I went from 65-75 in RoI in five days. That includes completed quest and exploration deeds in all but one zone, and all but two of the slayer deeds completed.

I understand where your coming from, leveling nowadays can feel to easy that it makes our characters feel like his/shes blazing through the game. For example i just completed a couple of quests today and I gained 100K exp in total which I thought was far to much exp (taking up 1/5 of my exp bar :O) making leveling far to easy and less like an achievement like it used to feel.

Zitat von Chanah

It's not a large amount of content, and it's gratingly linear and far too rigidly gated.

Yes your right I wouldn't say its a large amount of content in the eyes of a solo player; and maybe Turbine should consider more options for a solo player whilst leveling, but the quests can get quite in depth especially the epic quests, and if the player takes their time playing through each quest it could take more than 5 days, but that sadly comes back to gaining to much exp which would simply force the player through some of the content to quickly.

Tbh I haven't played any Dunland quests yet and I have heard its quite linear, and if thats the case I hope in future they stay away from that path since the variety of different NPC's, quests and stories (even if its some boar meat for dinner lol :P) is defo the path they should stay at, as its more enjoyable and especially more enjoyable when playing as your alt.

Zitat von Chanah

I don't like the expac at all, but even if you do, would it have been bad in some way if it were a level 65 zone and you were level 65?

Whilst I would still enjoy any new zone at what ever level, for an expansion I feel a level cap increase is in order to keep the advancement and journey through Middle-Earth flowing but thats just my opinion.

P.S I'm sure Frodo and Sam leveled up quite a lot travelling from the Shire to Mordor, can't imagine them being stuck at level 30 whilst sneaking past the Black Gate lol :P

To those who say that it is an unnecessary grind - Don't let it be. Take it slow, enjoy the landscape, have some fun. There is more to this game than getting to the level cap. It is there to make questing and progressing the story more satisfying. Why wouldn't you want to progress your toon? And to those that say they are going to leave the game because of the level cap - All I have to say is bye.

Zitat von Hostet617

To those who say that it is an unnecessary grind - Don't let it be. Take it slow, enjoy the landscape, have some fun.

It sounds like using a cure as a justification for a... disease.

Zitat von Hostet617

There is more to this game than getting to the level cap. It is there to make questing and progressing the story more satisfying. Why wouldn't you want to progress your toon?

There are numerous ways to make questing and progressing the story more satysfying, plenty of them have already been mentioned in both threads several times so excuse me for not repeating ideas of various posters.

And it has been stated again and again, by various posters again, that "why wouldn't you want to progress your toon" is a false dychotomy. There are other ways of advancement - especially in terms of making such toon more complex and useful, beyond meaningless number. Check them out, they are already in LOTRO, just... kind of lost after 50ish levels in favour of.... YAY! level cap increase!

We need a massive expansion with several new areas, new crafting stuff, make the crafting armors, weapons etc of better quality close or very similar to instances drops.

We need a level increase by steps, sort of when you go from this area to this area and you have finished "X" amount of quests or epic line you activate a 5 level increase, rinse and repeat.

Besides new levels & areas, a bonus could be given to starting a new toon. For instance, if a Hunter maxed level, they would get a title that would confer benefits on their next new Hunter toon. Same for maxing anything, the crafts, virtues, etc. That may make starting over part of the game.

Or special activities could be added for max-level toons.

I would love to see all these instances that we currently have in the game made to scale. I know that would be a lot of work but it would be amazing to go and enjoy all these instances again.