Warning: If you have no interest in PvMP or the Ettenmoors this might not be the thread for you .. proceed/read at your own risk :P
So... having read through Orion's recent post regarding potential changes for Wargs and associated comments in that specific thread.. I wanted to have an open, honest and hopefully polite discussion about the future for Hunters in the moors.
Let me start by saying that creepside needs fixing.. especially the mitigations for all classes, weavers and reavers (in that order, IMHO). I was a tad surprised to see some of the upcoming changes planned for the wargs prior to seeing something definitive for weavers and a specific dev post regarding the broken creep mitigations. Being that as it may, I did want to have a dialogue relative to the Hunter with the potential update coming for the warg.
Now, I struggle with trying to balance what our role is relative to the moors. You see, in my experience, wargs are our #1 enemy.. I am most often killed by a warg versus any other creep class. That occurs mostly in a situation where I'm riding from a keep or leaving a rez circle. I'm ok with that .. as the warg that kills me is usually minimum R8 .. and strongly believe that a new warg or a warg <R5 shouldn't normally be able to kill me unless I'm just not on my game or slow to react.
*When I read through the potential changes for the wargs and read some of their responses, I get the sense that the perspective of the warg that they should have at least a 50/50 chance (or even chance if you will) against any freep class in a 1v1, regardless of rank ... and I scratch my head. I don't have that expectation relative to a Hunter. If I catch an R10 BA and he pops MT I'm dead. I always die to R10+ reavers ... R10 Wargs kill me more than I kill them... doesn't mean I don't try .. but I don't have the belief that we have this inalienable right to have at least a 50/50 chance to kill any creep class.
I'm used to the PvP paradigm of rock-paper-scissors . Those that really know PvP know what I'm talking about.
So.. this leads me to the discussion point of the Hunter in U6. For the 99% of us who don't have 1st age bows (and never will) and the ultimate gear and with the looming lvl85 update .. should we just relegate ourselves to raids? Is that the dev vision for our role in PvMP? I'm okay with that if that's what I am supposed to do.. and since we don't have an "Oh cr@p" skill (HiPs, sprint, MT, etc) we aren't really allowed the choice of disengaging from a fight that we're losing ... and can't realistically roam the 'moors in stealth (at the same speed everyone else is at)... just seems we're being pigeon-holed into being a raid support asset (in a role which we do very well, IMHO).
So.. with that little diatribe .. what are your thoughts? And please, for all that is holy and such, let's be honest with each other.... at least in a dialogue around the Hunter and our role.
Hunters are must hit targets for a warg. 9k morale I don’t care I’m pouncing and taking my chances. 7/10 times the hunter isn’t fluent in the dance they are conditioned for the PvE game, stand still knock off your shots take your damage and deal with inductions. The standard procedure I see for the 3/10 of hunters who are PvP experienced. I pounce: precision stance, burn hot, needful haste and be able to mouse turn and get off IPS as often as possible. Hunters that can do this can kill me because of the critical I simply can’t match the damage output. My hope is when I pounce you attempt to play to my strengths and kite.
So scaling to 85 if the skills remain somewhat the same, the above procedure still works. The problem for hunters now is going to be wargs are getting an upgrade to damage output so the above scenario won’t necessarily guarantee a positive result for the hunter, I might actually be able to critical for over 1k. So for my hunter, I’m not even considering bringing him to the moors until the virtues are grinded, the gear is grinded and the LI’s are grinded.
It’s not balanced for the hunter because even if I grind out the best (tact mitigations, gear) I’m still reliant on a bad warg to get my burn hot, needful haste IPS rotation to be successful. Hunter’s need a larger heal from press onward, or the ability to move in stealth. Either one of those would balance the play and make it palatable. Press onward in my view should be the skill enhanced. It’s a legendary, so a slot is gone and it should scale to 60% of morale with the 5min cool down. So an 8k hunter is pounced, silenced, slowed and perhaps a hit from claws and is down to 6k, maybe 5. 1v1 on a warg that’s survivable, if a pack hits you are out of luck.
Press Onward should be upgraded, as its effect is going to help the hunter survive PvE, PvP and end game raids when we pull mobs. Getting a big heal isn’t going to save you from a dedicated warg pack but it’s going to increase the chances of surviving and that’s really what the hunter needs, better survivability in the moors.
But Thor.. and I agree with a lot of what you post and I think we both want equity on the moors.. we both know that a skilled warg will just stealth once you've blown BH, NH, IC and such .. and then re-Pounce when those skills expire ... we don't have the ability to escape .. and without those skills we are toast.
My premise is... and probably more of a rhetorical question to the Hunter community and more an actual question for the Turbine devs is; what is the design concept and role for the Hunter in the moors. I ask that because I see quite a few creep posts ridiculing players for "raiding" or calling them "raid babys" yet, if that's the only option we have to stay alive and earn reknown, then what choice do we really have? So, if we aren't suppose to raid.. and the 99% of us who don't have the ultimate gear lose 70% of the time in 1v1 situations... should we just hang up the bow and roll a heavy class or mini (pun intended )?
"So.. with that little diatribe .. what are your thoughts? And please, for all that is holy and such, let's be honest with each other.... at least in a dialogue around the Hunter and our role"
Warg food
Or if you want serious, I accept the role given to us by the ever so wise devs - group/zerg or die. We hit like a brick, but have no OS skills - unless we get the full PVP set (finally a 50% chance warg slow remover!), or get rank 15 and the incombat brand.
Pounce/TS, chew through 50% of your morale, 30 sec incurable slow - if there is more than 1 you will not get up from the initial knockdown. However in a zerg against any stunned or slowed target - we are winged death!
By the way did we ever get an explanation from el devs of why stealth level was taken off our melee LI options? Stongly suspect creep QQ - still got my trusty level 60 FA sword for when I want to be invisible
But Thor.. and I agree with a lot of what you post and I think we both want equity on the moors.. we both know that a skilled warg will just stealth once you've blown BH, NH, IC and such .. and then re-Pounce when those skills expire ... we don't have the ability to escape .. and without those skills we are toast.
Yep, I will burn the cool down for the kill, always (If I need too) So you knowing this can time your press onward (If its enhanced per my suggestion). I cant get 60% morale back with disappear, I just basically get another 5s stun. That’s a good thing but its not always great, by the time I use it you might have friends there if your solo well at least now you have the morale increase, add 60% power as well. Key is, if I hit you you shouldn’t be able to escape combat. You’re a hunter and I am warg we should have an equal chance of killing one another. 1 large heal and power restore, IMHO brings us closer to balance. You can still crit me for 5k+, I know it’s a chance, but it’s an option exclusive to you.
My premise is... and probably more of a rhetorical question to the Hunter community and more an actual question for the Turbine devs is; what is the design concept and role for the Hunter in the moors. I ask that because I see quite a few creep posts ridiculing players for "raiding" or calling them "raid babys" yet, if that's the only option we have to stay alive and earn reknown, then what choice do we really have? So, if we aren't suppose to raid.. and the 99% of us who don't have the ultimate gear lose 70% of the time in 1v1 situations... should we just hang up the bow and roll a heavy class or mini (pun intended )?
I think hunters need to be raid babies until you get a survival boost. I never ridicule players for playing to their strengths, that’s ridiculous but I do know creeps do that. I expect you to be a ranged damage dealer, that’s the hunter class, that’s how it should be played. You should have the ability to survive other scenarios yes, but when you move away from a strength position you should become weaker, the key here is mitigate the disparity when the move occurs.
The root cause of hunters issues in the moors is our inability to protect ourselves from crits. All other classes, with the exception of the RK, who can self heal, can in one form or another either mitigate crits (see all ends, shields, glory stance, bubbes, etc) or pop avoidances that negate landing critical, or any kind of, attacks; touch and go for example.
It's crits, and the reactive skills from landing critical blows, which kills hunters. With the new warg update and their new suite of skills reacting off of crits, assuming there will be no further protection for hunters, the situation is going to get worse.
Without something to mitigate our vulnerability to criticals, we will continue to be the favorite target of the creeps. Any increase in creep critical effectiveness is going to increase hunter farmability.
Store bought brands also lower our chances against wargs. As long as they exist in the store, balance is impossible, those wargs who buy them have an easy kill, those who don't are often killed.
I recently started playing warg in the moors and also started leveling up a hunter. Riddermark has some very good hunters who deal fantastic damage with 9K moral. I was kind of inspired and want to build my hunter for mostly moors use. At rank 3, my warg is quite gimp so I usually don't pounce random solo freeps as I know I will lose. Hunters are sometimes the exception. They annoy the hell out of my with their tracks so I kind of have it out for them.
The only freeps I have soloed at rank 3 are hunters so I will go for the kill even if it means running back from the rez circle. Hunters, when solo and stuck in melee range, seem to be quite weak. When a hunter initiates from range though or sits in a raid they are absolutely deadly. A couple ISB's and Pen Shots will blow up creeps quite fast.
I think this makes sense.
When are melee champions at their strongest? Melee range. When are they most vulnerable? At 40 m. Putting them at range takes them out of their element and thus they are weaker.
When are ranged DPS hunters at their strongest? 40 m. When are they vulnerable? Melee range. I think turbine wants hunters to stay purely ranged DPS. Therefore, they will stay raid babies.
Does this idea work well for PVE? Yes! The hunter design is not particularly great for moors play unless you are grouped. In order for this to change I think turbine would have to change the entire design of the class which would affect PVE.
Burgs, for example, are built for single target DPS and debuffs. This makes them not very good for AoE PVE content but potent in the moors.
Summary: Ranged DPS classes are not very well suited for 1v1 PvP. Therefore, I think hunters will find they are mostly suited for group PvP.
/Takes foot out of mouth
I could be wrong. I could sound unintelligent. That's just how I see it.
Store bought brands also lower our chances against wargs. As long as they exist in the store, balance is impossible, those wargs who buy them have an easy kill, those who don't are often killed.
This works the other way, too. I kept getting frustrated earlier with this one hunter who was constantly popping these, store pots, and basically sinking their TP into every store-buff they could buy.
@Estranger: LM really isn't solid in 1v1s for the average player. It's a difficult class to master in the 'Moors and especially for 1v1s situations.
I still think the core issue right now is the way mitigations work. I do think that we are in a better shape then before RoI just because of one thing: Improved Focus. We just get dealt too much damage at the moment. I right now am sitting at the same morale pool as after I was done equipping in Moria. 6,4k. I can still deal with wargs right now and weavers as well as the occassional reaver and BA if he doesn't have MT up. I would not touch defilers and warleaders, the fights just last too long. Now I could stack up on the morale, but will loose quite some DMG there and the 2,4k morale do not matter at all. We get hit so fast and so heavy we could as well be wearing no clothes. Any creep class can burn through 9k so fast because mitigations and armour value are so low and there is no way to compensate this:
Bubbles? N/A
Heal? N/A
Heavy Armour? N/A
Avoidances? N/A
Now I have more avoidance than in SOA but that does not matter since every creep and freep has at least 4k finesse, therefore cutting through roughly 15% each.
You could say I am traited for tactical and physical mitigation as well when you look at the PvP armour set and my virtues. Yet my medium armour only allows me to mitigate half(?) the dmg a heavy armour class would mitigate.
Now as a conclusion: I stilla rgue that we are better off then with SoM, but Update 6 will bring buffs to the two classes that we had good chances against in 1vs1 confrontations. And you'll have to see that with every small update there are just a couple of classes updated usually so I would not hold my breath to hear from our dev until RoR. So yeah I guess we will be ####ed after U6 hits, maybe even with the mitigation buff in 5.2. I do not like it.
The whole problem with the hunter class also is that you needed to be a good enough player to start with 1vs1. The average joe never did and never will stand a chance out there. On the other hand, every dipstick creep can kill an average hunter, if he gets the idea to run through him.
Now we do not necessarily need Resolute Aim traited anymore to win 1vs1, but remember how many times have you seen a Warg or Reaver hitting on a solo hunter trying to get his inductions off? That hunter might not have been bad in PvE but the creep could have been a monkey.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
It sounds perfectly reasonable until I ask you this question:
Are RK's, LM and Minstrel - the other Ranged DPS classes - not well suited for 1v1 PvP?
I understand that my answer is a bit flawed since medium armour got the shaft but... how many other ranged classes get to wear medium armour? The response to this would be.... how many of those light armour classes deal with inductions? I'd then discuss the fact that hunters get to start from 40 m away. You could respond by pointing out that you don't always get to plan your fights in PVE so max range doesn't much matter unless you are grouped.
Hunters are a very scary class if you get to start from stealth at 40 m away. Most creep classes will be dead or almost dead by the time they run 40 m and suck up the ISB, Pen Shot, HS, etc. With turbines current design of creating a class that wears medium armour, has insane single target/ranged DPS, and not a lot of mobility.. it is clear they didn't design this class to be a dominate 1v1 in PvP.
Suggestion: if hunters were given ONE "oh shoot" skill - a lore appropriate version of a bubble or a HiPS - it wouldn't change their utility in PvE and it would allow them to pick and choose their fights in the moors and as I said before, when a hunter gets to initiate from 40 m, they are deadly. I think an insta-camouflage with 10 seconds of mobility would be fine, not usable in combat. It wouldn't make them OP in PvE because it wouldn't really need to be used in PvE, who needs to sneak up on landscape mobs? Call it "Blending In" or something. This is how I see it working:
Hunter on a horse is riding along and sees a solo creep, they see each other so he dismounts and "Blends In". He then has 10 seconds to set up a shot and attack.
Bar the use of "camouflage" for 10 seconds afterwards so a hunter couldn't run around for 10 seconds and then remain there. This gives hunters a chance to get into their "element" (40 m range). It would be similar to how Revears have "Charge" that they can use to get into melee range and initiate fights. I think if hunters are in melee range they should be weak, this just gives them a chance (maybe every 2 minutes) to get to range in PvP.
What people are missing is that the Moors is designed, built, and balanced around a group structure. You are not meant to 1v1. Classes are designed to work in a role in relation to their teammates. If you are trying to 1v1 you're doing it wrong. They will never build a class with 1v1 in mind.
What people are missing is that the Moors is designed, built, and balanced around a group structure. You are not meant to 1v1. Classes are designed to work in a role in relation to their teammates. If you are trying to 1v1 you're doing it wrong. They will never build a class with 1v1 in mind.
I agree for the most part but I would like to direct you to the Burglar class. You could say its group role is scouting but with stuns, single target debuffs, and single target DPS, it is built to 1v1.
Hunters are a very scary class if you get to start from stealth at 40 m away. Most creep classes will be dead or almost dead by the time they run 40 m
40m is a myth in the moors. Always has been. Only an inexperienced creep dies from being hit 40 meters away, barring 1-shot, and you don't balance against inexperience, as they will die from 40 meters or 1 meter and has nothing to do with classes as its purley a player issue.
Originally Posted by Raptor38
What people are missing is that the Moors is designed, built, and balanced around a group structure. You are not meant to 1v1. Classes are designed to work in a role in relation to their teammates. If you are trying to 1v1 you're doing it wrong. They will never build a class with 1v1 in mind.
This is a great point, but unfortunately it was last true 3 years ago. Starting with Moria's Book 7, when they nerfed infamy/renown gain in groups, turbine has spent alot of time balancing for solo play. So I agree that it was desinged and built around group structure, but so was all of LOTRO back then. Since then this game, and the moors as well, have consitantly been evolving to suit the causal solo'er.
Every time turbine adjusts balance to force the factions to group up, they howl on the forums because they don't want to, or don't know how to when they do. Hunter forums no different. But why is it of the 15 classes, the hunter class is the one that's forced to group up, in some peoples minds? Doesn't make sense.
Last edited by Estranger; Feb 09 2012 at 09:34 AM.
40m is a myth in the moors. Always has been. Only an inexperienced creep dies from being hit 40 meters away, barring 1-shot, and you don't balance against inexperience, as they will die from 40 meters or 1 meter and has nothing to do with classes as its purley a player issue.
Maybe pre-RoI this was a "myth", but with the way hunters are stacked in damage out there now, it is extremely deadly as a creep to be spotted by a stealthed hunter first. If the hunter focuses up, then hits SB > Pen Shot > Pen Shot > Pen Shot that's at least 6k+ damage right from the get go. And if the creep is not at least r6 (or a higher ranked/morale stacked spider or warg), they'll easily get blown to bits by the time they close the gap.
Maybe pre-RoI this was a "myth", but with the way hunters are stacked in damage out there now, it is extremely deadly as a creep to be spotted by a stealthed hunter first. If the hunter focuses up, then hits SB > Pen Shot > Pen Shot > Pen Shot that's at least 6k+ damage right from the get go. And if the creep is not at least r6 (or a higher ranked/morale stacked spider or warg), they'll easily get blown to bits by the time they close the gap.
hmmm.. not sure on your server.. but most of my opponents are R9 and higher.. in addition, if they're not wargs, they're using store bought trackers. The other day I'm coming out of TR rez .. stealth up due to the known rez campers.. get the "..you are being followed" and here comes an R11 reaver at full speed... to round out the scenario .. weavers burrow, wargs hips and sprint .. ba's pop MT, R8+ defilers heal up.. .. R8+ WL crit shouts and heal up .. etc, etc... now, we may get a lucky crit and have the chance of burning through the atypical 12K+ morale (one WL on Landy runs frequently with 19-20K morale.. most high ranked wargs are 13K) .. but most often the creep is left with 5-6K or so and we've burned through our focus .. creep is in melee range .. we die.. or creep has enough sense to run .. we don't win..
I guess the real premise of my original post is to articulate the feeling that we are being required/mandated/pigeon-holed, to raid up to stand a chance. I'm okay with that .. but I want to see if there is consensus in the Hunter ranks for us being forced down that path.
I guess the real premise of my original post is to articulate the feeling that we are being required/mandated/pigeon-holed, to raid up to stand a chance. I'm okay with that .. but I want to see if there is consensus in the Hunter ranks for us being forced down that path.
I don’t think there is any doubt this is the case and I took your initial post to be somewhat rhetorical and an invitation to chat about the moors. I think any honest PvP’er in Lotro can see clearly hunters have legit survivability issues. You’re going to have to group, otherwise you’re going to get rolled often. I think of all the freep classes Hunter has really the best gripe, even RK’s have stuns to help them and can kite the majority of their lightening skills.
You really only have a few choices:
1.Complain loudly: It’s worked for Wardens, its working for creeps. I strongly urge this option as it seems it’s really the only way Turbine gets the message. May take you a year or so, but eventually you will get a bone thrown to you. 2.Accept the raid: You might just have to group up and forgo any desire to actually “hunt” in the moors. Which is too bad, I think hunters should be the freep class best suited to solo in the moors but I’m not a dev.
Might be time for you to roll a mini nuth and leave all this behind.
What people are missing is that the Moors is designed, built, and balanced around a group structure. You are not meant to 1v1. Classes are designed to work in a role in relation to their teammates. If you are trying to 1v1 you're doing it wrong. They will never build a class with 1v1 in mind.
I would never say that the moors are based on group content. It seems to be solely developed for zerging. On the other hand though jsut take a look at Guards, Minstrels, Champs, Burglars. They are built to handle solo PvE and group PvE as well. Now creep classes seem to be solely designed for solo zerging and running around on there own. Group design is where they always lacked. I remember Mirkwood days where Reavers got their combat systems changed so they worked exceedingly well solo. At least creeps do not have to bear PvE systems in mind so they are solely designed for PvP and at that for every situation as well.
On topic again: I do not even want a bubble or full-selfheal or anything like this, I want DMG dealt to me to be significantly lower
Last edited by VincentVanPort; Feb 09 2012 at 12:00 PM.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
Maybe pre-RoI this was a "myth", but with the way hunters are stacked in damage out there now, it is extremely deadly as a creep to be spotted by a stealthed hunter first. If the hunter focuses up, then hits SB > Pen Shot > Pen Shot > Pen Shot that's at least 6k+ damage right from the get go. And if the creep is not at least r6 (or a higher ranked/morale stacked spider or warg), they'll easily get blown to bits by the time they close the gap.
As I said, inexperienced players will be the ones to die from this; but they will die regardless. Experienced creeps do not close the gap, they go the other way. At 41 meters, hunters do no dps and have lost the element of suprise.
This is why "on paper" solutions to complex issues do not a solution make.
I guess the real premise of my original post is to articulate the feeling that we are being required/mandated/pigeon-holed, to raid up to stand a chance. I'm okay with that .. but I want to see if there is consensus in the Hunter ranks for us being forced down that path.
I don't think there's anything that thought out with this regard. Players come to this conclusion as accepted doctrine but I don't think there's any real design intent in this direction. I think it's more likely one of these options or some combo platter:
A) Turbine doesn't know what to do with hunters, the slightest tweek and we become way OP
B) Wants to keep us gimped as population control
C) Doesn't care either way because their stats show that the class is still popular no matter how broken it becomes
Unfortunately, the only real way probably to get true work done on the class is if people stop playing it.
As I said, inexperienced players will be the ones to die from this; but they will die regardless. Experienced creeps do not close the gap, they go the other way. At 41 meters, hunters do no dps and have lost the element of suprise.
This is why "on paper" solutions to complex issues do not a solution make.
I have this problem precisely. When I am lucky enough to have someone run by while i'm in camo, I usually wait until they are at most 15-20m away before unloading. Any farther away and most can escape (induction skills cause me to move more slowly than most of my slowed targets), and any closer and I get wrecked in melee range.
Interesting comments here. I have a hunter that has almost run out of content in PvE and I've been taking them into the moors a lot recently. I don't retrait heavily when PvMPing, just a couple of barbed arrow and a tracking class traits. I get jumped by wargs a lot and lose more often than I win. The comments here are going to help me a little but I see no mention of Dazing Blow and Cry of the Predator - I've found both these to be very helpful against a solo warg. And then there is always fleet stance, ensure you're fully focussed before you get on your horse and you can get off a good number of Penetrating Shots once you get over the initial pounce.
Yes it's annoying getting beaten in 1v1s but we are the heavy artillery after all.
People need to remember that in Moria freeps were super OP. In the following updates, wargs became extremely strong with their ability to knockdown at will, more bleeds, etc. Literally wargs were unstoppable. I played my old level 50/60 warg to rank 5 prior to and through Moria sparsely. I was only rank 6. I tried out the warg in its days of utter domination and I literally got 5-stars in 5 days playing carefully, but not super-hugging. Then, in following updates, wargs got their super-powers taken away for good reason, leading many bad players to cry foul and flood the Hoardale with their tears.
Even now when I play my warg I always go after hunters. I have an excellent chance against any hunter on my server. Granted there aren't many stellar ones, but that is beside the point. I'll fight any hunter, always feeling like I have a better-than-50/50 chance.
However, with the new changes to the warg, they'll likely approach their old super-warg potential. I might have to go dust off my paws and rage around spilling freep blood. I can imagine that only the champs and minstrels will put up a fight post-U6. But, then again, when i think of wargs vs minstrel/champ, I can only see this:
People need to remember that in Moria freeps were super OP. In the following updates, wargs became extremely strong with their ability to knockdown at will, more bleeds, etc. Literally wargs were unstoppable. I played my old level 50/60 warg to rank 5 prior to and through Moria sparsely. I was only rank 6. I tried out the warg in its days of utter domination and I literally got 5-stars in 5 days playing carefully, but not super-hugging. Then, in following updates, wargs got their super-powers taken away for good reason, leading many bad players to cry foul and flood the Hoardale with their tears.
Even now when I play my warg I always go after hunters. I have an excellent chance against any hunter on my server. Granted there aren't many stellar ones, but that is beside the point. I'll fight any hunter, always feeling like I have a better-than-50/50 chance.
However, with the new changes to the warg, they'll likely approach their old super-warg potential. I might have to go dust off my paws and rage around spilling freep blood. I can imagine that only the champs and minstrels will put up a fight post-U6. But, then again, when i think of wargs vs minstrel/champ, I can only see this:
I think that the little spider crawling up the blade of grass in the background will win...
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Re: Hunters in Ettenmoors... discussion
Originally Posted by Nuth_KM
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