Thread: Rk even worth playing?

Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

Rk is one of the most versatile classes in the game. I think the biggest problem people run into with the class is that they always want to compare the healing to a minnie's healing and the dps to a hunter, champ, or burg's dps. It's a runekeeper, it's not one of those other classes.

Of course you have to compare them to other classes in a similar role! If you can't match a Minstrel for healing and utility (which you can't), then why would anyone want to bring you for healing (at least as long as they can get a Minstrel instead)?

Originally Posted by AkhorahilEvernight

Alright, so tell me this: You can pick a group of any classes you like. They're all equally skilled, and equally equipped. In which cases would you bring an RK?

Now, for which ones would you pick an RK for with IEoF heavily neutered?

Note that this isn't a "RK can heal anything" -- this is about being at least as good as the alternatives. Maybe you can finish a marathon, but can you win it? Outside of three-man groups, I'm hard-pressed to imagine any situation where you'd bring an RK healer, or a Lightning traited RK, or a Fire-traited RK with a nerfed IEoF.

No I would bring all mini’s, half heals half DPS. That’s not the point, the point is very simply RK’s can DPS any content in the game and heal any content in the game. Are you disputing that? We’re back again to a place where the RK has to be as good as the alternative. You are basing your argument on an unconfirmed nerf to IEoF (is it confirmed by ZC? I’ll eat crow if it is). The Op is asking if the RK is worth playing, he isn’t asking if it’s the best DPS or best healer, its neither its excellent at both and that’s the strength of the RK you can do 2 things exceptionally well through 100% of the content of the game.

Perception doesn’t change reality. it would appear some RK’s want to create the circumstances that you are the best at both, and that’s unreasonable. Want to be better healers then mini’s? The preferred choice? Ok, what’s your proposed nerf to your dps? Want to be the best DPS in game, what’s your proposed nerf to healing?

Since we are now to hypotheticals (as per your post) which is it going to be? Or do you have the stones to admit you want to be the first choice for both? I’d rather the silly mini fetish be out of the way so let’s focusing on healing this way you can’t whine any further about not being the preferred healing class. Buff up the entire healing and utility line, power restore for the group, let’s go all in.

100TP says in a month a lot of you will be back here crying about your DPS (worked for mini’s).

Originally Posted by forusrname

It makes sense to compare our healing and damage to the top classes for those areas. If (and I cannot comment one way or the other, but let us just say it is true) the rk is doing say 85% of the damage of a hunter and 75% of the healing of a minstrel, well that would be a very bad thing --- there would be no point in taking the class to a raid at all. I am not saying I think this is the case; I have no access to skilled players in top gear with hard-core parses and (sorry guys) do not trust the parses posted by others (largely because of the small amount of data, not because I think anyone is doctoring the data). One parse of 2 specific classes played by 2 specific people of unknown ability wearing who knows what gear just is not a lot of proof.

No, we are not a mini and should probably not start casting "singing stones" or become more like that class. We are not a hunter and probably should not start shooting runestones at the mobs with a hoopak either. But our damage and healing should be on par with the other classes. One (not both, but ONE) of our two roles should be on par with the top classes that fill that same role. If not, if we are lower than the other classes for BOTH roles, that is a serious flaw. If. It is hard to really prove it --- all we have are small amounts of circumstantial evidence, much of it provided by people who have an agenda (get the RK beefed up, often to the point of overpowered given some of the suggestions).

Why though? Why should we be on par with one of the roles that is considered the top of either dps or heals? Why can't it just be this is how the RK does it? Everyone's concerned with being invited/not invited to raids for what...PuGs? Why is it a flaw if we are lower than the other classes? I think there are certain fights where an RK, exactly as it stands now, is a ten times better healer than a Minnie based on the difference in the way the two classes perform the job.

When I heal raids everyone lives. When I dps, the hunters/burgs/champs have one he** of a time holding aggro, if they can even get it (Draigoch, doesn't matter who's got it really as long as it's not the head). Not talking PuGs, kin runs.


Forus.... there is a heck of a lot of "Devil's Advocacy" in my post here. I most definitely have an opinion on what I would like the RK to be the best in the game at, DPS. Hands down. Don't take anything in my post in any way other than good natured debate, that's all it is.

Originally Posted by AkhorahilEvernight

Of course you have to compare them to other classes in a similar role! If you can't match a Minstrel for healing and utility (which you can't), then why would anyone want to bring you for healing (at least as long as they can get a Minstrel instead)?

This argument bothers me. The classes are different, they will always be different, and thankfully (prayfully) so.

Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

Why though? Why should we be on par with one of the roles that is considered the top of either dps or heals? Why can't it just be this is how the RK does it? Everyone's concerned with being invited/not invited to raids for what...PuGs? Why is it a flaw if we are lower than the other classes? I think there are certain fights where an RK, exactly as it stands now, is a ten times better healer than a Minnie based on the difference in the way the two classes perform the job.

When I heal raids everyone lives. When I dps, the hunters/burgs/champs have one he** of a time holding aggro, if they can even get it (Draigoch, doesn't matter who's got it really as long as it's not the head). Not talking PuGs, kin runs.


Forus.... there is a heck of a lot of "Devil's Advocacy" in my post here. I most definitely have an opinion on what I would like the RK to be the best in the game at, DPS. Hands down. Don't take anything in my post in any way other than good natured debate, that's all it is.

That is fine, I am not easily offended. Your post is not offensive at all.

At the end of the day, the biggest reason why is that "the RK just does it that way, and the 80% of the other class result is good enough" is not acceptable to a significant portion of the gaming community. Players of MMOs expect the damage classes to do roughly the same damage, the healers to do roughly the same healing, if equally geared. They expect the tanks to be able to tank, the support to provide useful utility to a group. When a class has no redeeming qualities, the players of that class become frustrated, posting and complaining and eventually leaving the game for one of the hundreds of alternative MMO games that DO provide acceptable class balance. No one wants to spend a year developing a toon that is 80% or whatever of the best. They want to spend a year to BE the best at something, or good enough at many things to be a quality contribution to a group.

For me I just see the Do Not Fall skills (Day, Storm, Fire), the Blade and Fang protections, AFE, as something unique the RK brings to the table that the Minnie cannot. RK can do that whether healing or DPSing and can swap and do either. I see the RK as pretty beneficial the way it is. Heals-wise if the group survives it's a win. I like the diversity of the classes and maybe I am a bit sensitive feeling like ppl really just want the RK to be a Minstrel when that is not the intent. There have been plenty of times I have healed something on the Min thinking to myself it would be a heck of a lot easier to heal it if I was on the RK, or been on the Min wishing I had some of the DNF skills.

I know I'm really not telling anybody anything there with what I posted above, giving my .02 on where I see the RK being unique and additive as it stands now. I think people (some fellow RKs and naive LFFers) get hung up on HPS too much and forget the other things the RK brings to the table.

Originally Posted by forusrname

That is fine, I am not easily offended. Your post is not offensive at all.

At the end of the day, the biggest reason why is that "the RK just does it that way, and the 80% of the other class result is good enough" is not acceptable to a significant portion of the gaming community. Players of MMOs expect the damage classes to do roughly the same damage, the healers to do roughly the same healing, if equally geared. They expect the tanks to be able to tank, the support to provide useful utility to a group. When a class has no redeeming qualities, the players of that class become frustrated, posting and complaining and eventually leaving the game for one of the hundreds of alternative MMO games that DO provide acceptable class balance. No one wants to spend a year developing a toon that is 80% or whatever of the best. They want to spend a year to BE the best at something, or good enough at many things to be a quality contribution to a group.

Those are my feeling aswell. +rep

Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

I think there are certain fights where an RK, exactly as it stands now, is a ten times better healer than a Minnie based on the difference in the way the two classes perform the job.

Just please tell me a single fight where a RK healing is ten times better than a mine. Just a single one.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

No I would bring all mini’s, half heals half DPS.

Two Traited for Buffs would be a better option.

You are all welcome to get back on Topic now.

Well, first thing, I didn't red the whole thread.

But my personal opinion:
I always like dwarven casters, so I waited long before I could play RK, after I bougth Moria, I created one.
He was squishy, with decent DPS and terrible heals, unless I build attunement for healing, then I was squishy, with almost non existent DPS and OK heals.
I struggled to get lvl16.
On the other hand, minstrel was extremally easy to play, better DPS (IMO) and much better heals.

However this is just my low level opinion.

Originally Posted by Vellrad

Well, first thing, I didn't red the whole thread.

But my personal opinion:
I always like dwarven casters, so I waited long before I could play RK, after I bougth Moria, I created one.
He was squishy, with decent DPS and terrible heals, unless I build attunement for healing, then I was squishy, with almost non existent DPS and OK heals.
I struggled to get lvl16.
On the other hand, minstrel was extremally easy to play, better DPS (IMO) and much better heals.

However this is just my low level opinion.

You should try it again now. RKs immediately after Moria launch were ridiculously squishy at low levels. It really took some skill to be able to solo anything particularly difficult on level. Due to things like CA being attunement 6 and acquired at a relatively high level, skill rotations were tricky, especially at low level, and doubly so if you got jumped by multiple mobs you weren't expecting.

Nowadays you should have way fewer problems. CA is available at an early level and 0 attunement, so skill rotations are easier, and the difficulty of everything at the lower levels has been nerfed into the ground since Moria, multiple times at this point. The difficulty level isn't even remotely comparable.

Originally Posted by bradegor

just please tell me a single fight where a rk healing is ten times better than a mine. Just a single one.

sg

Fwiw I meant having the RK being the healer versus the minnie being more beneficial for the group. If that one sentence offended you in some way and kept you from reading the other feedback I left I can delete it, not trying to get into a contest.

Originally Posted by Telcharan

You should try it again now. RKs immediately after Moria launch were ridiculously squishy at low levels. It really took some skill to be able to solo anything particularly difficult on level. Due to things like CA being attunement 6 and acquired at a relatively high level, skill rotations were tricky, especially at low level, and doubly so if you got jumped by multiple mobs you weren't expecting.

Nowadays you should have way fewer problems. CA is available at an early level and 0 attunement, so skill rotations are easier, and the difficulty of everything at the lower levels has been nerfed into the ground since Moria, multiple times at this point. The difficulty level isn't even remotely comparable.

I don't know what was it like when class came out, I bougth it at beggining of the month.
The thing I got biggest problem with, is the fact the only avaible heal while DPSing heals ~20HP.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

No I would bring all mini’s, half heals half DPS. That’s not the point

Actually, that's exactly the point. If the situation you describe were correct (Minstrels > All), then the game would be completely broken class-balance wise.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

the point is very simply RK’s can DPS any content in the game and heal any content in the game. Are you disputing that?

No, but since you're not as good at healing as a Minstrel is (DPS is less of an issue -- the problem there is more squishiness than damage output), that means that either the other players have to pick up the slack, or, if you're just at the edge between succeeding and failing, you will fail where you would have succeeded with a Minstrel. And how fun is it to be the weakest link, really?

It's a bit like saying, "Any soccer match can still be won using the secondary goalkeeper instead of the primary one." Well, possibly, but it will certainly make it harder to win, and you might very well lose some match that you otherwise would have won. Why would anyone bring the RK instead of the Minstrel if given the pick?

To draw things to a silly extreme, just to illustrate the point, I would imagine virtually all raid content in the game could be done while bringing a L1 toon along (rezzing it after the fight, most likely), but that doesn't make it a good idea.

(I only have one raid-geared character, but if I had others, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for the raid leader to say, "Uhm, could you bring your anything-but-RK-or-Warden instead, please?)

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

We’re back again to a place where the RK has to be as good as the alternative. You are basing your argument on an unconfirmed nerf to IEoF (is it confirmed by ZC? I’ll eat crow if it is).

ZC said there'd have to be a change to IEoF. It could be that there's a buff coming (this is possible -- it's unlikely to make it better in a Fire build, but the casting time for non-Fire RKs might be reduced, or something), or maybe just a change that won't affect the overall power at all, but given his track record on RKs, a lot of us expect a nerf. My personal guess would be that it will only make one fire attack insta-cast, which would pretty much push the Fire line back to where it's been for most of its existence (i.e. pointless).

EDIT: Just read the other thread, seems that this is exactly what will happen.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

The Op is asking if the RK is worth playing, he isn’t asking if it’s the best DPS or best healer, its neither its excellent at both and that’s the strength of the RK you can do 2 things exceptionally well through 100% of the content of the game.

Actually, that isn't much of a strength. What it means is that you're pretty good at filling empty spots when people look to populate groups (certainly not a bad thing, that's true), but since you're always in either DPS or Healing mode, it doesn't particularly matter that you could have been doing a semi-decent job in the other mode instead.

And anyway, Healing isn't exceptional. Lightning isn't exceptional. Fire is fine, but exceptional?

And I responded to his question -- I do play my RK a bit (SW:TOR is more to blame than anything else for a drop in my RK playing (and ZC could do worse than take a look at the Sith Sorcerer, for a light armour-using DPS-or-Healing class)), but I would certainly not make an RK if I rolled up a new toon and wanted to play a good class. RKs are playable, but a bit mediocre.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

it would appear some RK’s want to create the circumstances that you are the best at both, and that’s unreasonable. Want to be better healers then mini’s? The preferred choice? Ok, what’s your proposed nerf to your dps? Want to be the best DPS in game, what’s your proposed nerf to healing?

You should be as good as Minstrels for Healing (when traited and equipped for that). You should be as good as any other DPS class for DPS (when traited and equipped for that). Since there has to be some downside to this flexibility, reduced utility is acceptable to a point (or rather: being able to support in the other role counts as utility), and/or being slightly more squishy. This was how things used to stand between Minstrel and RK for a long time.

Note that ZC has specifically said that he wants RKs to be as good healers as Minstrels, and at the same DPS as Hunters and Champs (and better than Burgs). This is both a design intent, and the only design that makes any kind of sense. The problem is that he doesn't seem to recognize that this simply doesn't hold true at the moment.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Since we are now to hypotheticals (as per your post) which is it going to be? Or do you have the stones to admit you want to be the first choice for both?

I don't want to be the first choice, but I want to be equal choice. As good as a Minstrel when healing, as good as any other DPS when DPS:ing.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

100TP says in a month a lot of you will be back here crying about your DPS (worked for mini’s).

If IEoF is significantly nerfed, then you'd absolutely be right.

Otherwise, we'll see in Rohan -- that's where I'd expect to see any significant redesigns at the soonest.

Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

sg

SG is the place bar none where RKs shine the most (interestingly, it's also very Warden-friendly), but ten times better than a Minstrel? Suuure...

(To be fair, there is also no place where a Minstrel is ten times better than an RK healer -- it's not much worse than, what, 15-25% better?)

Originally Posted by forusrname

That is fine, I am not easily offended. Your post is not offensive at all.

At the end of the day, the biggest reason why is that "the RK just does it that way, and the 80% of the other class result is good enough" is not acceptable to a significant portion of the gaming community. Players of MMOs expect the damage classes to do roughly the same damage, the healers to do roughly the same healing, if equally geared. They expect the tanks to be able to tank, the support to provide useful utility to a group. When a class has no redeeming qualities, the players of that class become frustrated, posting and complaining and eventually leaving the game for one of the hundreds of alternative MMO games that DO provide acceptable class balance. No one wants to spend a year developing a toon that is 80% or whatever of the best. They want to spend a year to BE the best at something, or good enough at many things to be a quality contribution to a group.

Yep, exactly like that. I want two things:

1) To be on average as good as the other DPS classes when I'm in DPS mode, and as good as Minstrels when in healing mode.
2) To have some particular thing that I'm the best at, while not denying the other classes to have particular things that they are the best at. But this shouldn't be an overall advantage; rather, something like, "Lightning damage fight here, sure glad we have an RK for this one -- next one, a Hunter root pull would be great, the one after that, Champ all-out AoE rocks."

RKs currently fail in both respects, I think (although Fire in a mostly stationary fight and particularly against 2-3 opponents is probably an exception).

Originally Posted by AkhorahilEvernight

1) To be on average as good as the other DPS classes when I'm in DPS mode, and as good as Minstrels when in healing mode.

Personally, I feel that I am as good as the other DPS classes when DPSing or as good as minis when healing. But without a significant number of parses for both cases, this will remain my subjective opinion (was that redundant?).

My point is, that without proper data to back up the claims, one way or the other, we can't ask for a real solution to any perceived problems. The problem might be the player, the totally awesome mini in the other part of the raid making the RK look bad, or class mechanics. Without an objective analysis of the problem, we don't know where to begin to fix things.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

My point is, that without proper data to back up the claims, one way or the other, we can't ask for a real solution to any perceived problems. The problem might be the player, the totally awesome mini in the other part of the raid making the RK look bad, or class mechanics. Without an objective analysis of the problem, we don't know where to begin to fix things.

People who play both report that they're doing a lot better on their Minis; this ought to count for something. Further, the collective experience seems to be that raids with one (or heaven forfend, two) healing RKs struggle more than Mini-healed ones.

Originally Posted by AkhorahilEvernight

People who play both report that they're doing a lot better on their Minis; this ought to count for something. Further, the collective experience seems to be that raids with one (or heaven forfend, two) healing RKs struggle more than Mini-healed ones.

Honestly, it doesn't really count. Mini healing is different than RK healing (as we all know) so its still a subjective thing without parse numbers to back it up. Even the "collective experience" is just conjecture.

I want to be very clear here -- I am NOT arguing that RKs are perfect as is. All I am advocating is that people start collecting actual data that can be used as a basis for their arguments -- one way or the other, it doesn't matter to me. If they don't want to take the time or are unable to collect the data, then they need to clearly indicate that what they are stating is their opinion.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Honestly, it doesn't really count. Mini healing is different than RK healing (as we all know) so its still a subjective thing without parse numbers to back it up. Even the "collective experience" is just conjecture.

I want to be very clear here -- I am NOT arguing that RKs are perfect as is. All I am advocating is that people start collecting actual data that can be used as a basis for their arguments -- one way or the other, it doesn't matter to me. If they don't want to take the time or are unable to collect the data, then they need to clearly indicate that what they are stating is their opinion.

This doesn't really work -- you can measure HPS, but that's the only piece of quantitative data available to use. However, healing include a lot of stuff that can't be measured in this way -- for instance, it's a fact that Minstrels have better emergency healing than RKs, and that it's often very good to have emergency healing, but just what what numerical value do you put on this?

You're asking for some kind of scientifically controlled experiment where you vary the variable of who's healing while keeping the rest constant. This is putting the bar far too high -- it this was the rule, no class would ever have legitimate claim to being over- or under-powered.

Originally Posted by AkhorahilEvernight

This doesn't really work -- you can measure HPS, but that's the only piece of quantitative data available to use. However, healing include a lot of stuff that can't be measured in this way -- for instance, it's a fact that Minstrels have better emergency healing than RKs, and that it's often very good to have emergency healing, but just what what numerical value do you put on this?

You're asking for some kind of scientifically controlled experiment where you vary the variable of who's healing while keeping the rest constant. This is putting the bar far too high -- it this was the rule, no class would ever have legitimate claim to being over- or under-powered.

I'm not asking for the bar to be set quite that high. It would be just as impossible as you say if that were so. But has much quantitative data as possible would go further (in my mind at least) than what so for has been purely anecdotal information.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mini's emergency heal is on a 10 min CD and we have 2 emergency heals on 5 min CDs.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

I'm not asking for the bar to be set quite that high. It would be just as impossible as you say if that were so. But has much quantitative data as possible would go further (in my mind at least) than what so for has been purely anecdotal information.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mini's emergency heal is on a 10 min CD and we have 2 emergency heals on 5 min CDs.

Not everything needs to be quantative to be noticeable. I will put some examples:

-Fellowship healing. Apart from two long CD skills the only skill RKs can use has 20 seconds CD, heal over time and it´s channeled meaning you cannot do any other thing. It doesn´t heal too much, either, around 200 HPS. Plus, the runestone bug means you wont be able to take profit on that extra 30% healing on most raid situations. Instead, minstrels can do INSTANT fellowship heals each 5 seconds, apart from their long CD skill (yeah it is one, but it´s instant and better than the RK ones).

-Emergency healing. RKs have a BAD time on dealing with spike damage. We have just the bubble once each minute if legacied, and it´s not enough. Minstrels have a wide array of instant heals who deal a big quantity of morale restored. RKs old bubble was excellent for many situations - for example, in BG LT, where some times the tank had a heavy incoming healing debuff, the bubble was better than any kind of minstrel healing. But now it´s gone. Minstrels also have got RKs bubbles: two, one for themselves and one for any player, although it prevents less damage than RK one.

-Heals over time. This was RK strenght before RoI, RKs were better healers than minstrels when the raid faced continuous damage, as the hots tend to overheal and continuous damage is the only way a hot can be totally functional. The thing is that ToO has way less continuous damage than OD, and lots more spike damage. Also, minstrels have got several hots, they can put up to three nowadays so that difference has been reduced and that weakness has been covered.

-Mobility and quickness. Every single useful RK skill except EoE has inductions. MV is somewhat slow to be a spot heal, while WoH is fast. Minstrels have got many ways of making their skills to be casted on the move, instant, or very fast. They have aftercast animations but they can be cut with instant skills so a good minstrel won´t have issues on this. So if the fight requires mobility, minstrels have a grat edge here. The only advantage from RKs come in kitting tanks fights, where you can put hots on the kitter and leave it go.

-Power usage. Before RoI, RKs had a clear advantage over minstrels here, making minstrels need to control their power or have a LM with them; i can´t remember any situation where i did need power as RK, not even in LT. Things have changed and anthem of composture+coda gives minstrel restoration power a big boost, even better than RK healers (which has stayed good thanks to iPtH). An old RK advantage has been tied.

-Utility. The other things the healer can do apart from healing. This is also quantitative:

-RKs-
RKs can put some protections to poison/wound (i think there is no boss nowadays where this is useful, used to be cool in OD though), to fire/frost/lightning (let´s not talk about the time wasted on switching LIs and resetting skills) which has some utiility in ToO but it´s still far from the usefulness it was in OD and before. RKs have an IC rez buff that can be casted in several people if fight lasts long, but in ToO there is not such fight, only Saruman maybe up to phase 3, maybe you will get time to put a 2nd one. Other ones are too fast.

-Minstrels-
Minstrels can do a wide array of utility skills. They can buff DPS of their fellowship greatly, and keep it all the fight. They can wipe dread, very useful for learning fights recovery. They can IC rez one player. They can give resistances, stats, mitigations, hope, incoming healing ... loads of buffs, some of them can be kept all the time up during the whole fight. They have a special skill called Call to Greatness which is great for many fights, specially on the beginning. They also have CC for the trash which is VERY helpful, specially with adaptation ability, way more than anything the RK healer can do. I´m sure i´m forgetting many other skills.

As you can see, you can quantify how one class or another helps the raid. I´m sure the HPS of both are similar (the real HPS that is, if we count overhealing then RKs are kings :P) but how that healing reaches the raid, how one class reacts to the dangers and the ways they have to deal with it, the utility they bring ... there is a big gap nowadays between having a minstrel or a healer RK.

Also, old raids were more RK friendly due the fights were better suited for RK skills and way of healing. I have put several examples above. New raid style favours minstrel skills and way of healing. This must be taken in count, if we faced different fights, like let´s say old OD Poison or OD Fear, then maybe we would have a different perspective.

In global, RK healing hasn´t been nerfed. More or less, it has stayed the same as before RoI, with just the bubble nerf but with improved fellowship healing. But there are two important factors which has changed the balance: minstrels buff up in RoI (which has been called by many as the most OP class in there, and not precisely by RKs) and different kind of raid fights. Without them, we could say that things would be fine. But...

+rep for the above

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Not everything needs to be quantative to be noticeable. I will put some examples:

-Fellowship healing. Apart from two long CD skills the only skill RKs can use has 20 seconds CD, heal over time and it´s channeled meaning you cannot do any other thing. It doesn´t heal too much, either, around 200 HPS. Plus, the runestone bug means you wont be able to take profit on that extra 30% healing on most raid situations. Instead, minstrels can do INSTANT fellowship heals each 5 seconds, apart from their long CD skill (yeah it is one, but it´s instant and better than the RK ones).

-Emergency healing. RKs have a BAD time on dealing with spike damage. We have just the bubble once each minute if legacied, and it´s not enough. Minstrels have a wide array of instant heals who deal a big quantity of morale restored. RKs old bubble was excellent for many situations - for example, in BG LT, where some times the tank had a heavy incoming healing debuff, the bubble was better than any kind of minstrel healing. But now it´s gone. Minstrels also have got RKs bubbles: two, one for themselves and one for any player, although it prevents less damage than RK one.

-Heals over time. This was RK strenght before RoI, RKs were better healers than minstrels when the raid faced continuous damage, as the hots tend to overheal and continuous damage is the only way a hot can be totally functional. The thing is that ToO has way less continuous damage than OD, and lots more spike damage. Also, minstrels have got several hots, they can put up to three nowadays so that difference has been reduced and that weakness has been covered.

-Mobility and quickness. Every single useful RK skill except EoE has inductions. MV is somewhat slow to be a spot heal, while WoH is fast. Minstrels have got many ways of making their skills to be casted on the move, instant, or very fast. They have aftercast animations but they can be cut with instant skills so a good minstrel won´t have issues on this. So if the fight requires mobility, minstrels have a grat edge here. The only advantage from RKs come in kitting tanks fights, where you can put hots on the kitter and leave it go.

-Power usage. Before RoI, RKs had a clear advantage over minstrels here, making minstrels need to control their power or have a LM with them; i can´t remember any situation where i did need power as RK, not even in LT. Things have changed and anthem of composture+coda gives minstrel restoration power a big boost, even better than RK healers (which has stayed good thanks to iPtH). An old RK advantage has been tied.

-Utility. The other things the healer can do apart from healing. This is also quantitative:

-RKs-
RKs can put some protections to poison/wound (i think there is no boss nowadays where this is useful, used to be cool in OD though), to fire/frost/lightning (let´s not talk about the time wasted on switching LIs and resetting skills) which has some utiility in ToO but it´s still far from the usefulness it was in OD and before. RKs have an IC rez buff that can be casted in several people if fight lasts long, but in ToO there is not such fight, only Saruman maybe up to phase 3, maybe you will get time to put a 2nd one. Other ones are too fast.

-Minstrels-
Minstrels can do a wide array of utility skills. They can buff DPS of their fellowship greatly, and keep it all the fight. They can wipe dread, very useful for learning fights recovery. They can IC rez one player. They can give resistances, stats, mitigations, hope, incoming healing ... loads of buffs, some of them can be kept all the time up during the whole fight. They have a special skill called Call to Greatness which is great for many fights, specially on the beginning. They also have CC for the trash which is VERY helpful, specially with adaptation ability, way more than anything the RK healer can do. I´m sure i´m forgetting many other skills.

As you can see, you can quantify how one class or another helps the raid. I´m sure the HPS of both are similar (the real HPS that is, if we count overhealing then RKs are kings :P) but how that healing reaches the raid, how one class reacts to the dangers and the ways they have to deal with it, the utility they bring ... there is a big gap nowadays between having a minstrel or a healer RK.

Also, old raids were more RK friendly due the fights were better suited for RK skills and way of healing. I have put several examples above. New raid style favours minstrel skills and way of healing. This must be taken in count, if we faced different fights, like let´s say old OD Poison or OD Fear, then maybe we would have a different perspective.

In global, RK healing hasn´t been nerfed. More or less, it has stayed the same as before RoI, with just the bubble nerf but with improved fellowship healing. But there are two important factors which has changed the balance: minstrels buff up in RoI (which has been called by many as the most OP class in there, and not precisely by RKs) and different kind of raid fights. Without them, we could say that things would be fine. But...

If my quest for quantitative data and the end of hyperbole filled posts resulted in your post, then I'm happy. I think the above is a good compendium of the differences between the two classes. While it might not be exactly what I was looking for, it is certainly valid and valuable in its own right.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

-Heals over time. This was RK strenght before RoI, RKs were better healers than minstrels when the raid faced continuous damage, as the hots tend to overheal and continuous damage is the only way a hot can be totally functional. The thing is that ToO has way less continuous damage than OD, and lots more spike damage. Also, minstrels have got several hots, they can put up to three nowadays so that difference has been reduced and that weakness has been covered.

Just on a kinda random side note, but somthing I think I'd like to see, is maybe a trait/rework of the benedictions milestone that makes it so overhealing someone, will bleed some of that healing to other fellowship members, maybe to help with our AOE healing

Originally Posted by Telcharan

I love unsubstantiated rumors. You do realize that no dev has said anything about this, which means that best case scenario (assuming first you're not making this up, and second that no one would be stupid enough to openly break their NDA on the forums) you're spreading information you heard second or third hand from someone who's on Palantir. Pretty much every time this kind of information gets spread around, it's wrong or wildly misinterpreted, so yeah. Not going to believe you.

Before you attempt to troll me, and subsequently demean the time and effort I put into my post, you should try and inform yourself. There is a dev tracker for your convenience. It is not my responsibility to link it for you, but I've seen others have done that anyways. ZC said he wasn't happy with IEoF. ZC has an extremely clear track record. It's looking-glass clear. He deliberately seeks and nerfs anything that is above parameters. Some developers are like that, and some like to let things hover around the top. We could have hoped he wouldn't but it's pretty darn obvious what he's going to do, you don't need to be a genius.

I am not in beta. I have seen the beta changes on RKs. They are floating out on the web in public spaces. That is probably because there is no public discussion where there is demand for public discussion - so people have filled the demand by violating their NDAs. I haven't. Nor have I ever discussed any specifics. It is not my role to do so.

But I can freely comment on what we know. And we knew IEoF was getting changed just because it meant all Fire RKs were doing the boring 111111111511111111151111111115 , and this was not a complement to the class nor the class designer. So you knew he would change it without needing a single word from anyone. But he gave you one anyways. And guess what, it's getting changed. A lot. So are a TON of other things.


Minstrels are better healers. It's not just a matter of metrics, as one poster above has requested as verification of. It is human nature.

When someone throws a ball at you, you react to it - to catch it or to move out of the way. If you had to GUESS where the ball would be thrown, and then put your mitt there - you would catch it less often than if you saw the ball coming and put your mitt there.

In one case you can SEE where the ball is going. In the other case you must first GUESS where the ball is going. You will sometimes guess wrong. Yes, even you, Mr. Big-Headed Genius, you will guess wrong sometimes as well.
But the person who SEEs the ball going somewhere, does not ever guess wrong. He might click wrong, or catch wrong, but all things being equal you will screw those up exactly as much guessing as well.


Point is: Minstrels heal reactively. They heal AFTER the damage has been done. The damage was done. The damage was then healed. No error. No waste. No mistakes guessing. Efficiency.

The RKs heal premptively. They guess. Sometimes it's easy to guess. Sometimes, you mess it up. Even you do, Mr. Big-Headed Genius. You guess wrong too sometimes. Now you are less efficient than Mr. Small-Headed Not-Genius, who just healed what was clearly damaged.


This simple design choice makes RKs inferior healers. To compensate for it, they need some real efficiency and effectiveness gains. They do get some of those, but some of those are wasted on the 2nd gigantic design error in RKs - Long duration HoTs. Long-duration HoTs are by nature wasteful. Just like long-duration DoTs. IF RK hots were short duration, they'd still be wasteful due to overheal waste - but not as wasteful as long ones.


Those 2 points alone seal the deal. In particular, and pointedly, because Turbine designs raid content with sudden spike damage. Not lots of long-duration DoT damage!!! They don't even design fights to complement the RK. Damage is done in chunks. Damage is best healed in chunks in response. It's simple reciprocity =P


Now if we get into abilities, things are more pronounced. This isn't cause RKs couldnt be great. It's not cause RKs aren't fun. ZC succeeded there, RKs are super fun to heal on! Too bad they stink!

Like in the Fellowships Heart vs That which does not kill us. Both are Legendary Traits so it's fair to compare those 2. (Not EoE because exhaltation is not trait-equipped, so is better compared to something else, like Chord of Salvation (which is way way better than EoE)). But in the comparsion of FH vs TWDNKU, FH wins because it's a much easier to type out acronym. Seriously, it's a better spell. That's cause Minstrels are better. That's because they heal reactively, and because the guy behind the wheel obviously spends time on the class, and loves the class, and went to bat on the class when people argued against him. So the class prospered.


We are fortunate as RKs, though, because Minstrels prospered so well, and are in fact so darned much fun to play, that there is no denying - simply no denying - that Orion hit a home run. It's hard to be the guy manning the class that is the STORE CLASS, that people are feeling very justifiably deficient about, and not too happy with you, and abandoning your class or just not feeling great about how desirable they are. Especially cause you have a really long long history of nerfage, and there's some nerfage coming in the update - so it those feelings were kind of justified before and are still justified. There is a lot of incentive to really make this class good, because of that.

But whatever changes are made, the RK still faces the basic difficulties that come out of a long-duration HoT/DoT design when pitted against human nature (I can SEE a Minstrel healing, and the RK doesnt look like its healing much... sort of like that Skirm Herbie... it's healing me isn't it? It is... but I can't tell for how much. --- but those big chunks of health coming in are very satisfying to see, and LOOK like Im getting healed a lot. So as a raid leader, I pick the guy that i can SEE heals me. Thats human nature. RK wasnt designed to work with that.), and THEN pitted against the Raid-Design Turbine uses over and over again. Spikes, chunked damage, move move move. Doh, RK wasn't designed for that either.


All that being said RK is still really fun. Be nice to have the cake and eat it too - that's all most players are saying honestly. Make us good enough to defend ourselves to other players, make us good enough to be desired... so we can eat the cake we so very much enjoy having.

Anyways if you want a line by line comparison of RK to Minstrel, I did that. It's in my post history. I love my RK to pieces, and I hate it too! But if its 2 healers for ToO t2, Im bringing my minstrel! It's safer. It respects the game design better. It respects what players need better. It is more adaptable. It is faster. It is more efficient at actually getting heals where you need them when.
I'd only allow me to bring my RK healing if we needed 3 healers, as the 3rd healer - cause 3 minstrels is silly since 2 is all you need for the anthem goodness (we only run 2 yellow minstrels). RK as the 3rd tank-focused healer is very sensible...... buuuuuut, you could put a blue-line Minstrel as the 3rd and that would work just as good

Originally Posted by L_Loomis

Before you attempt to troll me, and subsequently demean the time and effort I put into my post, you should try and inform yourself. There is a dev tracker for your convenience. It is not my responsibility to link it for you, but I've seen others have done that anyways. ZC said he wasn't happy with IEoF. ZC has an extremely clear track record. It's looking-glass clear. He deliberately seeks and nerfs anything that is above parameters. Some developers are like that, and some like to let things hover around the top. We could have hoped he wouldn't but it's pretty darn obvious what he's going to do, you don't need to be a genius.

I am not in beta. I have seen the beta changes on RKs. They are floating out on the web in public spaces. That is probably because there is no public discussion where there is demand for public discussion - so people have filled the demand by violating their NDAs. I haven't. Nor have I ever discussed any specifics. It is not my role to do so.

But I can freely comment on what we know. And we knew IEoF was getting changed just because it meant all Fire RKs were doing the boring 111111111511111111151111111115 , and this was not a complement to the class nor the class designer. So you knew he would change it without needing a single word from anyone. But he gave you one anyways. And guess what, it's getting changed. A lot. So are a TON of other things.

I can read, as it turns out, and drew the same conclusions you did at that time. That does not change the fact that we still didn't have any details from ZC concerning what the changes were going to look like. I took issue with basing an entire rant on how terrible the RK's DPS abilities are and are going to be on that one single change before that change had even been confirmed, and I still do so even after it has been. We did not at that time, and still don't, have any clear idea what our burst damage is going to be like after U6. As you said, there are going to be a lot of changes, and saying that a single one of those changes in isolation is going to ruin anything without having the whole picture is ridiculous. Implying that the whole fire line was getting a nerf because of a change to one skill was and is an assumption without evidence. And it's not like the change doesn't need to happen, because of how monotonous the fire line has become.

Incidentally, I'm going to continue to ignore third-party sites that engage in rampant NDA violation, because things change in beta all the time, even when it's on Bullroarer let alone Palantir, and I see getting oneself all worked up over things that may never even happen to be a waste of time.

Minstrels are better healers. It's not just a matter of metrics, as one poster above has requested as verification of. It is human nature. [...]

I understand that it is in human nature to like big numbers, and to prefer to heal reactively as opposed to preemptively. I also don't care in the slightest. If you are so convinced that the RK is gimped as a healer, then feel free to refrain from healing on your RK in raids. That is your choice. I prefer to do what I enjoy regardless of what disadvantages others perceive because it's fun and we can complete the content we want to do anyway. Assuming we get ways to deal with spike damage in U6, and possibly some way to heal while moving, this update will deal with the two real issues I still have with our healing, because I still find the rest of it to be completely satisfactory. I want to be able to heal well enough to complete raid content, and we will be; nothing else really matters to me at all.