Thread: So if wardens are getting a secondery role when do burgs get one?

Originally Posted by Raptor38

Burglar's have incredibly high DPS from the developer's 0viewpoint because they are looking at the class as it functions and behaves in relation to the other class.

I wish I could +rep a hundred times. Excellent post.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Captains main DPS boost come from war cry and then 2 arms.


I think I have been clear about the problem. The burg has always been about bringing more single target DPS to a group. It is falling short of that now and i am just pointing it out. The burg Does not add enough DPS to a 3/6 man group, you are better off with another champ or hunter than a burg. Those 2 classes aoe also. We are the only class locked in to melee single target DPS and we should shine at it. Yes you can run groups with a burg no problem but they are still gimped. Like someone else said people bring burgs for who is behind the keyboard. The class may be living off the dragon spot light still but its glow is starting to dim.

Burg's like LM's are Crowd Control and Debuff classes with relatively decant DPS in groups, the LM is burst AoE damage (hence lightning storm, ents go to war, and improved sticky gord) and burgs are single target burst DPS (hence surprise attack, bleeds, and crit chain) but Debuff and CC is still their main role, so like i said this "glaring problem" of yours is not a problem at all, just because you think they need more DPS doesnt mean they actually need it because frankly they really don't...

oh and as for

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I think I have been clear about the problem. The burg has always been about bringing more single target DPS to a group. It is falling short of that now and i am just pointing it out.

tell me this, how does a burg from stealth dev crit 9k with surprise attack, improved feint attack aim cunning attack (critted bleeds) and then use hips surprise attack for another 6k crit not bring single target DPS to a group...? and how is the burg "falling apart"? is it because you grouped with a few 75 burgs that still didn't know what their class did and thus sat there and spun in circles until it was time to FM?

Originally Posted by Barney1119

Burg's like LM's are Crowd Control and Debuff classes with relatively decant DPS in groups, the LM is burst AoE damage (hence lightning storm, ents go to war, and improved sticky gord) and burgs are single target burst DPS (hence surprise attack, bleeds, and crit chain) but Debuff and CC is still their main role, so like i said this "glaring problem" of yours is not a problem at all, just because you think they need more DPS doesnt mean they actually need it because frankly they really don't...

oh and as for

tell me this, how does a burg from stealth dev crit 9k with surprise attack, improved feint attack aim cunning attack (critted bleeds) and then use hips surprise attack for another 6k crit not bring single target DPS to a group...? and how is the burg "falling apart"? is it because you grouped with a few 75 burgs that still didn't know what their class did and thus sat there and spun in circles until it was time to FM?

9k from stealth sighn me up!!!!!!

your statement is the problem. Burgs dont hit that hard you and the people like you think our DPS is higher than it realy is. If it was where the perception is I would not be here.

I would not say a burg is a debuff class it has debuffs but um 2-3 @ a time on a target vs 7 or 8 on a LM hmmm. Thats like saying a Champ is a cc clas due to its aoe stuns and 10 sec horn No aoe root yet on burgs.

EDIT>>> it is 11 debuff's as a lm inc warding circle/tar/raven........

The burg gets billed as a suport class that can off heal off tank tada yada yada. Try running 6 man raid skirms. Tankhealer/Champ/Champ/Hunter/XXXX

in the XXXX spot try running it with a captain one run and a burg the next. Ask the healer what he thought, then ask the tank and DPS. See if they would want a burg over a captain for support. Then do the same thing but swap the burg into one of the champ spots.


Then come back and talk. I love running undermanned stuff but i would never pick a burg over a captain. If they gear and skill was the same and i got a tell from a burg and a champ/hunter at the same time for a DPS spot in a 6man raid skirm I would pick the champ/hunter and so would you.

In my perfect fellow a burglar always find a spot. If you're not satisfied of your burglar, roll another class because burglar are fine as it is in my opinion. It's one of the more usefull class in a fellow!

Perfect fellow for me:

Guardian
Minstrel
Captain
Burglar
2 random between Hunter|Champion|dps RK|LM

Originally Posted by Arlecchino79

In my perfect fellow a burglar always find a spot. If you're not satisfied of your burglar, roll another class because burglar are fine as it is in my opinion. It's one of the more usefull class in a fellow!

Perfect fellow for me:

Guardian
Minstrel
Captain
Burglar
2 random between Hunter|Champion|dps RK|LM

Yes the Tank/Captain/healer are the 3 primary. You can plug a mix of anything into the last 3 or overload the AOE. When I put together 6 man skirm raids I like having 2 AOE (champ/LM) & one single target Hunter, RK or burg. Right now the hunter gets my pick over the burg and RK for DPS unless I'm the burg

But the reason we wanted burgs in the past is because of little things the dev's dont want in the game. Some one said in this post or the DPS post that you had no use for a burg in DN. I kinda disagree with that. You wanted a burg to HiPS pull and break scripts. Thats the only reason you want a burg in a raid skirm to break scrips. The fridged squal is the prime example of what good burgs do and what makes them usefull. It is just that this game play was taken out and fixed (we all know it was a nerf ) instead of incorporated. Same with CJ's they said they made a choice not to design content with CJ's in mind and they nerfed them.

If CJ's allowed real AOE DPS or real off healing to the level of a captain we might be on to somthing mixed in with a few good skript breakers. first fire boss in SG the fire one and last boss the fear you could avoid with the CJ.

Thats what good burgs did at one time. we do not even add that anymore.

Right let's try and end this argument.

I decided to test out the numbers myself on my burg and my lm and compare the results.

The category is single target burst dps, fully unbuffed while attacking the training dummies in Galtrev.
15 secs was a convenient time frame for the loremaster, so I went with that.

Here's what I came up with:

My burglar: 1500-1700 DPS, without RW

My lore-master: 1300-1800 DPS on TWO training dummies - so only 650-900 DPS effectively on a single target

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Well if burg DPS is burst what would you call a LM doing 20k-30k damage on a target with 3 skills in 3 second close to 100k aoe in the same time? thats burst your little 10 is nothing in isen. Wake up guys.

I call that BS.
I used the sequence: Ancient craft, staff-sweep, ents, ISG and lightning storm. It takes 15 seconds, which fits remarkably well with the reset timers (wish they would remove those) on the dummies. Some lm's might be able to pull off the sequence slightly faster, saving maybe 2-3 secs but I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
But by saying a 15 sec sequence only takes 3 secs you are effectively claiming that the lm burst DPS potential is 5 times higher than it actually is. No wonder you're biased lol. I think you need to wake up.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Burgs do not have burst DPS. I dont know where this myth came from. They have constant Medium to high DPS.

Unbuffed my ents devastates for just over 6k on my lore-master, 7,2k if ancient craft is up.
With traited L.I.E and RW my surprise strike devastates for 6,2k with the QK buff active.

My lore-master is pretty new still so not yet fully geared but still got +90% tact dmg.
This guy:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...49#post5936349
is sitting on +120% tact dmg so if you're generous you can multiply all my lore-master numbers with 1.15 (15%) and get the numbers of a fully geared dps lm. My crit rating is slightly lower than the guy in this thread and I agree for pure dps you'd want your crit rating to be a lot higher.

But still: 8,3k ents versus 6,2k surprise strike - what are you complaining about?


The 1500-1700 DPS figure for my burg I posted earlier was actually quite low. That was using normal skills and not bothering with hips/RAA.
If I go all out I can consistently kick out 40-45k damage in 20-25 secs. That takes me to around 1800-2000 single target DPS, completely solo, without any buffs from other classes and without RW active.

Still don't think burgs have burst DPS?

Join me in this little experiment: Let's say that my lore-master suddenly came up with a way to guarantee that staff-sweep, ents, sticky gourd and lightning storm ALL devastated on ONE target - the training dummy.

Staff-sweep devastates for uhm... Maybe 2,5k combined?
Ents: 7,2k
ISG: 4k
Lightning Storm: 3,5k x3

That's a total of 24,2k - the time frame's still the same; 15 secs.
So? That takes you to just over 1600 single target DPS - assuming that ALL YOUR ATTACKS DEVASTATE!!! (See I can use caps too )

A well-geared lore-master can obviously do more damage than mine - so add the extra 15% again: Just around 1850 DPS for an extremely well geared lore-master in a situation that will never happen in normal game-play.

Compare that to my 1800-2000 solo burst dps on burg - without RW that I can kick out if I want to.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Our max hit is 1/3 to 1/2 what other classes max hit is. You would be shocked @ how much DPS come from auto attack on a burg.

It seems you have some serious gear issues on your burg - if you build for surprise strike (which I obviously have on my burg) it still kicks out plenty of damage. A third of other classes max hit? Really? I'd like to see a hunter (unbuffed!) pull off a Heart Seeker devastate of 18k on a training dummy... 12k? Hmm maybe - fully specced for it and with burn hot... Not sure it's possible still - and my hunter's shelved so not gonna test it myself.

As for the auto-attack bit: My burg used to get 20-25% damage from his auto-attacks and I don't think that's changed much - feel free to enlighten me...



So, I will conclude my post by saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the burglar dps, which I see as his main role. On top of that a burg brings a bit of support to a fellowship in the form of cc, debuffs and cj's.



PS: As for the gear on my lm and burg:
Burg: had 26k PM and 23,9% / 10% crit/dev-crit
Lore-master 21k TM and 15,6% / 5,3% crit/dev-crit
Both chars use the + 7,5% dev mag settings.

I've factored in the lack of TM on my lm, but not the lack of crit. It really should be higher, but he's only been 75 for 2 weeks. My burg has been my main for almost 5 years.

Originally Posted by Gilias

So, I will conclude my post by saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the burglar dps, which I see as his main role.

So, according to your own numbers we have the following:

1 - Burg main role = DPS
2 - On a single target, a burg can do similar DPS to an LM, therefore burg DPS is fine.

Are you kidding me? An LM's main role is not DPS and if it was it would be AOE DPS not single target DPS. It would make just as much sense to compare burg DPS to a heal-specced mini.

Burgs cannot compete with single target DPS by hunters and champs.

If someone were to argue that burgs don't have a main role and are a utility/support class and therefore the DPS is fine then I could respect that. But don't claim that the main role for a burg is DPS and then state that the DPS is fine.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

2 - On a single target, a burg can do similar DPS to an LM, therefore burg DPS is fine.

You clearly haven't read my post mate. Read it properly please.
ifreborn claimed that the lm could blow away a burg with single target burst dps. I've shown that is not the truth.
And the dps numbers were 1500-1700 for the burg and 650-900 for my lm, 750-1050 - if we're being generous - for a fully kitted lm. This is ONLY in the 15 sec period it takes to fire off staff-sweep, ents, ISG and lightning-storm. So basically I've gone to great lengths to try and match the lm ST burst DPS to the burgs, but it just isn't possible.
Only if you assume that all the lm's attacks devastate does it stand a chance.

Originally Posted by Gilias

You clearly haven't read my post mate. Read it properly please.
ifreborn claimed that the lm could blow away a burg with single target burst dps. I've shown that is not the truth.
And the dps numbers were 1500-1700 for the burg and 650-900 for my lm, 750-1050 - if we're being generous - for a fully kitted lm. This is ONLY in the 15 sec period it takes to fire off staff-sweep, ents, ISG and lightning-storm. So basically I've gone to great lengths to try and match the lm ST burst DPS to the burgs, but it just isn't possible.
Only if you assume that all the lm's attacks devastate does it stand a chance.

Apparently you haven't read your own posts. Now you're comparing burg burst DPS to LM sustained DPS. Who cares about burst DPS outside of the Moors anyway?

Sustained DPS single target (unbuffed):
Burg ~1200
Hunter ~1500
Champ ~1400

Sustained DPS multi-target (unbuffed):
Burg ~1200
Hunter ~2200
Champ ~2500

Your LM should be feeding me power (save the stun immunity for that tank though).

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Apparently you haven't read your own posts. Now you're comparing burg burst DPS to LM sustained DPS. Who cares about burst DPS outside of the Moors anyway?

Sustained DPS single target (unbuffed):
Burg ~1200
Hunter ~1500
Champ ~1400

Sustained DPS multi-target (unbuffed):
Burg ~1200
Hunter ~2200
Champ ~2500

Your LM should be feeding me power (save the stun immunity for that tank though).

No. You haven't read my post properly and I doubt you've read any of this thread either.
My post was a response to ifreborn's claims that a lm could blow away a burg with burst damage.

Do you understand? That was my aim when posting these numbers. PLEASE quote me where you see me talking about sustained lm dps. I am not. A lore-master firing off his 3 biggest hitting attacks and then measuring dps - how can that ever be called sustained dps?

I'm comparing 'normal' burg burst dps with 'normal' lm burst dps.
I then go on to compare the 'possible' burg burst dps (using full aim/hips/RAA) to the lm's hypothetical dps potential, assuming ALL the attacks from the lm devastates. Cause that was pretty much ifreborn's claim.




As for your numbers: Haven't seen them before but they don't seem to be off to me. No idea where you got them from or how you got them but I'll accept them nonetheless.

Let's assume a raid has 4 dps slots for a single target boss fight.
Going by your numbers 4 hunters would be the ideal choice?

4 hunters: 4 * 1500DPS = 6000

Ofc there's a cappy in the group with 10% telling mark so it's a total of 6600DPS from the 4 hunters.

How would 4 burgs do then?

4 burgs: 4 * 1200DPS = 4800

But with 4 traited RW's on top of the cappy mark everybody is suddenly doing an extra 50% damage, so the burg contribution is actually 7200, and this is without the extra 24% (!!!) crit chance for EVERYBODY in the raid.

This is assuming the 1200DPS figure was without RW ofc - no idea if it was or not.



Do you (and everybody else reading this thread) still think the burglar is a broken class?

Originally Posted by Gilias

No. You haven't read my post properly and I doubt you've read any of this thread either.
My post was a response to ifreborn's claims that a lm could blow away a burg with burst damage.

Do you understand? That was my aim when posting these numbers. PLEASE quote me where you see me talking about sustained lm dps. I am not. A lore-master firing off his 3 biggest hitting attacks and then measuring dps - how can that ever be called sustained dps?

I'm comparing 'normal' burg burst dps with 'normal' lm burst dps.
I then go on to compare the 'possible' burg burst dps (using full aim/hips/RAA) to the lm's hypothetical dps potential, assuming ALL the attacks from the lm devastates. Cause that was pretty much ifreborn's claim.




As for your numbers: Haven't seen them before but they don't seem to be off to me. No idea where you got them from or how you got them but I'll accept them nonetheless.

Let's assume a raid has 4 dps slots for a single target boss fight.
Going by your numbers 4 hunters would be the ideal choice?

4 hunters: 4 * 1500DPS = 6000

Ofc there's a cappy in the group with 10% telling mark so it's a total of 6600DPS from the 4 hunters.

How would 4 burgs do then?

4 burgs: 4 * 1200DPS = 4800

But with 4 traited RW's on top of the cappy mark everybody is suddenly doing an extra 50% damage, so the burg contribution is actually 7200, and this is without the extra 24% (!!!) crit chance for EVERYBODY in the raid.

This is assuming the 1200DPS figure was without RW ofc - no idea if it was or not.



Do you (and everybody else reading this thread) still think the burglar is a broken class?

Your LM does it have 2800 tac offence unbuffed and a sword that provides 5% dev crit chance a book with 5% tac offence +5% fire? My LM parses 2500+ without ents and lightning storm on pulls in raid skirms and fondry. Higher when you add in the 2 big skills. My single target sustained damage is up over 1200+.

Learn to play your LM and get some gear please. Like I said above Dots are a big part of the LM's damage profile. The training dummy does not alow you to see the true effects of a LM's sustained DPS. Did you have tar down? Did you use your raven debuff. Do you know how to play a DPS LM yet? not as eassy as playing a burg but you can get the hand of it i am sure.


The sad thing in all of this is you guys think you are somthing you are not and when someone points it out and wants to help you become that or somthing better you come at him instead of helping the cause.

Ill come back latter with a single target screen shot of 20-30k of me attacking the traing dummy on my lm. Ill put my back to the others and fight the 1 in the last row

LOL i just did 38k on the training dummy

9k dev ents lightning storm only 1 crit of the 3 no dev :/


I think i could do 45-50k with some luck. I fugged up the screen shot.

edit here is a screen shot njot as good as my firt attempt and a little early could get another skill off. I could do over 40k. I just dont care to prove it.

This is second attempt:




no devs 40-50k is do able on the traing dummy by a lm FYI

EDIT OMG ### MATE

I just noticed my tar was not acctive that post look at the SS spot me 10-15% more DPS call it 35k LOL

@ Ifreborn....do you end-game raid in that LRM build or just hit training dummies and do skirms?

Happy to believe your claims without the screen shots but I dont accept the build of your DPS LRM is anything other than a liability to a group in T2 Orthanc atm.

Whatever the numbers on the DPS a burg is worth it just for the RW.

Its just trolling bud...big gratz on your uber LRM DPS build hope yer very happy with it

Originally Posted by Norman2

@ Ifreborn....do you end-game raid in that LRM build or just hit training dummies and do skirms?

Happy to believe your claims without the screen shots but I dont accept the build of your DPS LRM is anything other than a liability to a group in T2 Orthanc atm.

Whatever the numbers on the DPS a burg is worth it just for the RW.

Its just trolling bud...big gratz on your uber LRM DPS build hope yer very happy with it

I Dont get to DPS much in raids Kind blew people mind back in OD when I could DPS on trees. My debuffs are needed more than my godly DPS LOL. But, LM's cant DPS in raids for the most part because that cant controll agro in any way. Also back in OD I was doing more DPS on gorth chalange than the burgs in our raid traited full yellow. AOE will do that for you I guess.

But im pushing 10k health 1k crit D full debuff build in raids high finesse. Going to start using the sholders with finesse from Pits.

I dont know why I upset people so much they just dont want to hear it i guess. Sorry to burst bubles but the burg class needs a buff.

...awesome ..you are just so uber....

and the point about RW?...you seemed to conveniently not respond to that.

Originally Posted by Norman2

...awesome ..you are just so uber....

and the point about RW?...you seemed to conveniently not respond to that.

Ok ill take asecond to respond to burg debuffs vs LM debuffs.


BURG:
RW traited 10% incoming damage affected by DR, All incoming damage marks including captains stack the same and feel DR.

CD +6% crit chance traited


LM:
Ancient Craft = 15% incoming damage AOE skill not effected by DR of any kind

Sign of Power: See All Ends +5% incoming crit chance

Sticky Tar -10% fire mittigation

Benediction of the Raven -10% fire mittigation

Warding circle +10% tactical damage not effected by DR (no always uasable depending on traits and monster type)

What one is better?

Yes the RW is nice but it is at best it makes up for the loss of 1 dps class on a single target fight. No aoe inferior single target make the burg a bench class in isen 6 mans and maybe 1 spot in a raid.



I point at things and kick them. Sad what they did to this dynamic class.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

LOL i just did 38k on the training dummy

9k dev ents lightning storm only 1 crit of the 3 no dev :/


I think i could do 45-50k with some luck. I fugged up the screen shot.

edit here is a screen shot njot as good as my firt attempt and a little early could get another skill off. I could do over 40k. I just dont care to prove it.

This is second attempt:




no devs 40-50k is do able on the traing dummy by a lm FYI

EDIT OMG ### MATE

I just noticed my tar was not acctive that post look at the SS spot me 10-15% more DPS call it 35k LOL

and this relates to burglars how exactly? ya sure you can DPS on ur LM for 2,111 but, i have inclination to believe that you were buffed by a cappy and you just turned off the part that shows it on ur screen through UI settings, also that was on 2 dummies so cut that in half to be about 1,055.5 in 15.1 seconds, as someone said above you have to cut it in half because you are attacking two dummies and not one

Burgs primary role is support and their secondary role is damage dealer. This is a troll thread, burgs are not top tier damage dealers and they shouldn't be for the sake of class balance. Support classes such as burgs and lore masters should be able to peform a damage dealing role but not as well as primary damage dealers such as hunters, champs and rks.

good that my burg is at ~2100 dps as well the first 20 seconds on the training dummy, just that he keeps being between 1700 and 1900 dps forever (as long as i have power) :P
Comparing a burg with a loremaster on singletargetdps is just a joke, burg is only a bit behind hunter and champ (in raid maybe even above them thanks to hips and call to greatness) while lm is so far behind. Even with all cds up he doen't do more burst, but afterwards he just doesn't do much more damage than a captain.
Had a bit under 2000 dps today at shadow cm with my burg, the first 45 seconds over 3000, so please stop talking about burg does no damage and please never ever compare them with a lm on singletarget again, it just hurts to read that.
Lm debuffs are really good, but thats the only thing that makes him viable (and nessesary) in raids and singletarget bossfights and since they dont stack, you never need more than one. You wont make anyone happy by traiting damage on lm as well, it's just a waste of dps that could be done by a burg instead.

I think burgs really fine at the moment. He's among the top singletarget dps, has great aggromanagement, good cc, nice debuffs and great utility overall. I just think the yellow traitline should be buffed. Blue one is viable for moors, but yellow one is just useless. If you need that cc, you just trait 4red/3yellow and got the same result just with way more damage. It misses something like real debuffimprovements like it is with the loremaster. But thats another story and i doubt that it will be changed in near future.

Originally Posted by Barney1119

and this relates to burglars how exactly? ya sure you can DPS on ur LM for 2,111 but, i have inclination to believe that you were buffed by a cappy and you just turned off the part that shows it on ur screen through UI settings, also that was on 2 dummies so cut that in half to be about 1,055.5 in 15.1 seconds, as someone said above you have to cut it in half because you are attacking two dummies and not one

OK my ents didnt hit for 9k and my lightning storm did not hit 12k LM's cant DPS (PS lightning storm cant hit alone for over 20k on 1 traing dummy more madness). You are right burgs are the bestest most OP class. No way could a LM ever do 40k on a single traing dummy in 15 sec unbuffed thats mad talk. The 2 attemps 1 for 38k and one for 32k were just me hitting 12 dummyes.

Originally Posted by Idiotvillage

Burgs primary role is support and their secondary role is damage dealer. This is a troll thread, burgs are not top tier damage dealers and they shouldn't be for the sake of class balance. Support classes such as burgs and lore masters should be able to peform a damage dealing role but not as well as primary damage dealers such as hunters, champs and rks.

Run a 6 man raid skirm with a captain in the suport roll and 3 DPS classes and then a burg in the support roll and 3 DPS classes and get back to me....

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

good that my burg is at ~2100 dps as well the first 20 seconds on the training dummy, just that he keeps being between 1700 and 1900 dps forever (as long as i have power) :P
Comparing a burg with a loremaster on singletargetdps is just a joke, burg is only a bit behind hunter and champ (in raid maybe even above them thanks to hips and call to greatness) while lm is so far behind. Even with all cds up he doen't do more burst, but afterwards he just doesn't do much more damage than a captain.
Had a bit under 2000 dps today at shadow cm with my burg, the first 45 seconds over 3000, so please stop talking about burg does no damage and please never ever compare them with a lm on singletarget again, it just hurts to read that.
Lm debuffs are really good, but thats the only thing that makes him viable (and nessesary) in raids and singletarget bossfights and since they dont stack, you never need more than one. You wont make anyone happy by traiting damage on lm as well, it's just a waste of dps that could be done by a burg instead.

I think burgs really fine at the moment. He's among the top singletarget dps, has great aggromanagement, good cc, nice debuffs and great utility overall. I just think the yellow traitline should be buffed. Blue one is viable for moors, but yellow one is just useless. If you need that cc, you just trait 4red/3yellow and got the same result just with way more damage. It misses something like real debuffimprovements like it is with the loremaster. But thats another story and i doubt that it will be changed in near future.

You are so full of truth it hurts I need 12 of you in my groups Shadow in TOO? the guy that realy hits you hard with the attack duration debuff?

2K sustaind DPS all the time? you other burgs hear that! You guys know whats up LOL.

If you get out DPSed by a LM (DPS being measured over time, not a 5 second period during which you use ents & lightning storm) on a single target, or even anywhere close to it, you are a terrible burglar. There is no discussion to be had there, really.

this can be good and it can be bad guys.

Do those of you who are actually trying to argue with him remember how the thread started? It wasn't even about Burglar DPS. You are arguing with a guy that willingly helped derail his own thread in the second page, after he realized he couldn't agitate people in the first. He's mocking you all.

Put him on your ignore list if you absolutely can't resist the temptation to reply. Trust me, nothing of value will be lost.

I didn't have time to reply to your posts yday but since I helped stir the debate at least you deserve a few comments.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Your LM does it have 2800 tac offence unbuffed and a sword that provides 5% dev crit chance a book with 5% tac offence +5% fire? My LM parses 2500+ without ents and lightning storm on pulls in raid skirms and fondry. Higher when you add in the 2 big skills. My single target sustained damage is up over 1200+.

I must say I'm surprised you actually replied to my posts rather than just start a new thread with the same old rants like you've done so many times before.
Clearly you haven't read all of my post but ofc I didn't expect you to either.

This is the bit you missed:

Originally Posted by Gilias

My lore-master is pretty new still so not yet fully geared but still got +90% tact dmg.
This guy:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...49#post5936349
is sitting on +120% tact dmg so if you're generous you can multiply all my lore-master numbers with 1.15 (15%) and get the numbers of a fully geared dps lm.

As for the 'single target sustained damage' I very much doubt that - but more on that later.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Learn to play your LM and get some gear please. Like I said above Dots are a big part of the LM's damage profile. The training dummy does not alow you to see the true effects of a LM's sustained DPS. Did you have tar down? Did you use your raven debuff. Do you know how to play a DPS LM yet? not as eassy as playing a burg but you can get the hand of it i am sure.

The thing is we're not talking sustained dps at all. And I don't need to 'learn to play' or 'get some gear' on my lm. The test requires pressing 5 skills after each other - you really think it's that hard? Yes the lm is an advanced class and more demanding in raids, but on the dummies it's easier than playing a hunter.
As for the gear part I calculated the effects of a fully geared lm (29k TM compared to your 28k) on my finds, so when it says for a fully geared lm in the text then that's actually what it means.


I thought you knew how the training dummies worked, being the more experienced lore-master and all that. Hint: try and use 'knowledge of the lore-master' a bit more.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Ill come back latter with a single target screen shot of 20-30k of me attacking the traing dummy on my lm. Ill put my back to the others and fight the 1 in the last row

Thanks for taking the time - how did you find it though? Earlier you claimed that you could pull off all 3 big attacks in 3 seconds, yet your screenie shows a full 15 sec duration.
Guess that's as close as we'll ever get to you admitting you're wrong.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

edit here is a screen shot njot as good as my firt attempt and a little early could get another skill off. I could do over 40k. I just dont care to prove it.

Right you are...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

no devs 40-50k is do able on the traing dummy by a lm FYI

FYI no it's not. There's a difference between being hypothetically possible and actually doable.
If all your skills devastate... See above...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

EDIT OMG ### MATE

I just noticed my tar was not acctive that post look at the SS spot me 10-15% more DPS call it 35k LOL

What do you think happens when you reduce the armour value of a target that wears nothing but a t-shirt as armour?


I'll accept your 31k screenie as a good attempt. It's almost 15% higher than one of my better attempts so it's still within the range I calculated. You should be able to get it a bit higher still though as I forgot to consider the difference in legacies. My lore-master has the 2 must-haves maxed but he doesn't have ents maxed as I assume you do. But I doubt you'll get it much higher than 33-34k, although crit luck can change that ofc.
And nice try assuming we didn't know you were hitting 2 targets btw - as any lore-master should know the range of the big skills means that you'll always hit at least 2 training dummies, if you're in Galtrev.
So - your 'epic burst dps' really is not impressive at all.



All of this shows that lore-masters - in all their burst dps glory - struggle to even break the 1k mark on single target dps!

And let's be honest here - once you start using the other skills your overall dps starts to drop. You need the crits from the big skills to keep your dps high (relatively - compared to the burglar and most other classes lm dps sucks)

Originally Posted by Tarenius

If you get out DPSed by a LM (DPS being measured over time, not a 5 second period during which you use ents & lightning storm) on a single target, or even anywhere close to it, you are a terrible burglar. There is no discussion to be had there, really.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Learn to play your LM and get some gear please.

ROFL...couldn't help myself. I try not to feed them, but isn't this the kettle calling the pot black? Its the exact same thing everyone has been telling you about your burg, but you just go on, blissfully ignoring it.

LMAO

Originally Posted by Feraxks

ROFL...couldn't help myself. I try not to feed them, but isn't this the kettle calling the pot black? Its the exact same thing everyone has been telling you about your burg, but you just go on, blissfully ignoring it.

LMAO

he is posting absurdly low numbers. He more than likley did not debuff the dummy and used no raven. Then he comes here and says LM is all about 5 skills. I have the right to tell him these things.

He has no right to do the same to me.


In the end you guys flaiming is helping the cause. You should be the lion looking into the mirror not the damed cat. The people who designed the class and up date the class know what you are capable of DPS wise. They know that a captain provides 2x the benifit of you to the group. They know what a LM can do with DPS AOE and single target when played right. They know you are no where near the top of the heap. Your expectations and your flames are my goals, because at the end of the day there is right and wrong. @ the end of the day you may hate me for posting here and being so smug. But you are laying down some ground work and expectations for the class. I am just the person that will not rest till those expectaions are met and when they are met I will not come here gloating. I never have in the past. I will play my burg and be humbily satified.

FLAME on! POST! lay down those expectaions guys , I will not rest till they are met.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

he is posting absurdly low numbers. He more than likley did not debuff the dummy and used no raven. Then he comes here and says LM is all about 5 skills. I have the right to tell him these things.

He has no right to do the same to me.

lmao
Seriously - not sure what to say... Still laughing...
Right... first of all: You posted a screenie showing you did 31k damage in 15 secs. On two targets. Remember?

The reason I did not use tar, warding circle or the raven debuff is because none of these affect the training dummy. After you have applied ancient craft the training dummy has no mitigations left. I thought you had figured that out by now...

And what the ****? I have no right?!?
I have the right to question any ridiculous claims I come across tyvm. It just so happens that you're making more of them than anybody else. I'll give you that...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

@ the end of the day you may hate me for posting here and being so smug.

You certainly are...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I will play my burg and be humbily satified.

Errr... huh? Aren't you gonna post more of those random youtube vids? They're making more sense than anything else you're posting...

Originally Posted by Gilias

lmao
Seriously - not sure what to say... Still laughing...
Right... first of all: You posted a screenie showing you did 31k damage in 15 secs. On two targets. Remember?

The reason I did not use tar, warding circle or the raven debuff is because none of these affect the training dummy. After you have applied ancient craft the training dummy has no mitigations left. I thought you had figured that out by now...

And what the ****? I have no right?!?
I have the right to question any ridiculous claims I come across tyvm. It just so happens that you're making more of them than anybody else. I'll give you that...




You certainly are...




Errr... huh? Aren't you gonna post more of those random youtube vids? They're making more sense than anything else you're posting...

you read the changes for the warg in update 6? When all your stars are gone we will be friends allies.

Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

Do those of you who are actually trying to argue with him remember how the thread started? It wasn't even about Burglar DPS. You are arguing with a guy that willingly helped derail his own thread in the second page, after he realized he couldn't agitate people in the first. He's mocking you all.

Put him on your ignore list if you absolutely can't resist the temptation to reply. Trust me, nothing of value will be lost.

Good advice here!
I highly recommend this method of dealing with trolls, though ifre is the only one that is bad enough to bother with on the forums I frequent (Purebloodwarg is getting close, but sometimes says something realistic)

C'mon, participating in trolling (provided everyone takes it as a joke) is part of what makes the LOTRO community forums still fun after all this time.

I truely salute ifreborn1 for making the burglar forums readable on a weekly basis. Otherwise, there would hardly ever be a reason to visit (see the minstrel forums? Exactly).

If there's one thing I've learnt about our class, it is this:

A competent player can make Burglars look good.
A good player can make Burglars look great.
A great player can get us all nerfed..

..and a persistent whinging troll will get us ignored.

Stop feeding the troll. The less you reassure him that we are a great class, the more chance he'll move to the Hunter forum.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

And CC does not count. Anyone who says CC is a role should be carted off and locked away.

Our sole role right now is suport single target DPS. At one time My cj's and mittigastion allowed me to fill in as a tank or crude healer in 3 mans even some 6 mans. Now I just dont know anymore. in 6 mans like foundry on my burg I just stand there with my mouth gaping open as everything is dead before i get through my crit chain once. I play no role on the trash if i was on auto follow no one would even notice.

What can be done?

Bring CJ's back up to SOA level, give us some AOE and real heals/power return with CJ's again. Seems like a lot of other things have reverted back to SOA why not cj's? Improve our servivability skills, lower some cool downs(ready and able, escape clasuse, add a legacy for knives out and make it mitigate all incoming damage)? Give us some crititcal and dev crit defence. Add a skill like find footing for when we are rooted.



Why are some suport classes jack of all like burgs becoming more pigeon holed than the tanks and healers are? Even My LM with 2 blue traits can main heal and bring AOE devistation like no other.

hahahahahaha thanks for the laugh.

This thread is hilarious. I can't believe this just goes on for pages and pages.

This is a pseduo-issue for people who have played the game so much that end-game instances are a breeze. I don't understand how topping off the already OP DPS of your group with another 20% on the burglar is going to make anything better, but I suppose it was never really about that, was it? No, it's about your poor burglar feeling inferior once again. And about you going on a 200-page rant, intersected with random quotes from posts that you most likely never read.

ifreborn...................... ..




















You are so bad





















are you doing dps of a lvl 50 burg or are you the worst burg ever?

Originally Posted by MannyCalavera

This thread is hilarious. I can't believe this just goes on for pages and pages.

This is a pseduo-issue for people who have played the game so much that end-game instances are a breeze. I don't understand how topping off the already OP DPS of your group with another 20% on the burglar is going to make anything better, but I suppose it was never really about that, was it? No, it's about your poor burglar feeling inferior once again. And about you going on a 200-page rant, intersected with random quotes from posts that you most likely never read.

So you admit there is a problem with out wanting to adress the problem.

Why not adress the problem instead of me.

No secondary role?

Have you met a hunter

Originally Posted by Dunskap

No secondary role?

Have you met a hunter

Hunters have great CC more varried and more AOE than a burg. But CC is not a role outside of the t2 raid. would love to have 4 great hunters in a raid over 4 great burgs. Well maybe 1 great burg and 3 great hunters.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Hunters have great CC more varried and more AOE than a burg. But CC is not a role outside of the t2 raid. would love to have 4 great hunters in a raid over 4 great burgs. Well maybe 1 great burg and 3 great hunters.

Too bad you dont have a great burg

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

Too bad you dont have a great burg

Meow!


words